Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Let us take 'flowers' as an example. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of flower-images on stamps of the world, and it would be pleasing to assemble and classify these images into some sort of order which satisfies one's interest; perhaps particular flowers, such as orchids, or flowers of a particular part of the world. Although 'flowers' seems politically or nationalistically neutral, a collection might investigate why certain countries issue more such stamps, and others practically none.
However, a topical collector must surely set boundaries. What about stamps which do not set out to depict flowers, but which have incidental blooms in their background? What if those blooms are 'generic' flowers, not botanically identifiable? What would be the point of including those?
More puzzling still is when the collector expands the topic beyond rationality. Here is an example:
This lady is Iris von Roten, a Swiss journalist who so far as I know did not write on botanical subjects. Yet the stamp finds a way, via nominative determinism, into a topical collection of flowers.
The most egregious example of this was reported to me by a dealer a few years ago. Here is what a Topical collector deemed fit to include in his/her 'Flower' collection:
Yes, it's what you feared - a cover from the Gross-Rosen concentration camp in Poland. Possibly it went onto the collector's 'Big Roses' page.
As I said, you can collect whatever you like, and set your own limits. But taking topicals beyond reason makes the puzzled viewer slip into judgmental mode: crazy! WRONG!
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As another Brit, it's nice to see 'Topicals' being called Thematics ! 
I collect Flags on Stamps and in particular those of USA, Canada and GB. For the USA section I collect Mint and Used, PNC's, PNC singles and Plate Blocks. I have been asked on a number of occasions why I have so many of the same stamp in my Flag collection !! 
Not as obscure as your examples but they have caused a concerning look !! (for my wealth mainly I believe !}
Londonbus1
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As a keen gardener ( but not a thematic flower collector). I think there is only one clear way to collect flower stamps -by toxonomical division.Such a method could be an aide-memoir to botanical study.
Family, then Genus, then Species, then cultivar
Higher divisions than family becomes a little esoteric other than for advanced students of botany ( which is not me ! ).My Botany is limited to what I need to know to propagate plants.
The only problem is where to place cultivars which are the product of hybridisation between different species as opposed to selective breeding of one species - especially highly developed plants such as Roses with multiple hybridisations of multiple hybridisations where even the botanists are unsure of their origin.
I suppose people whose perceptions of plants are different might consider other variations,but to me they would not be logical.
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You could always sort by colour and make a flowerbed on the page. Even design what you would see in your own garden,such as an island bed of one variety edged with another and with dot/accent plants within.
Create a landscape picture much as a quilter would do when using material.
vic
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One of the joys of topical collecting is that is tends to free one from following the listings in a catalog or pics in an album. The collection can be arranged any old way that makes you happy. If using strict toxonomical divisions floats your boat then go for it. If you want them arranged by color - lovely! The point is to have fun!
I have one little topical collection; dogs. I currently have them arranged by country just to make it easier to find and file, but I've separated out the Schnauzers for a little mini topical collection. I have no intention of buying every dog stamp ever issued, I only buy ones that I find attractive in some way - it's a pure magpie accumulation and very enjoyable.
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I have struggled with where to draw the lines in my Airship collection. If it is a dirigible on a stamp, I want it in my collection. The problems arise when the airship is part of set of balloons. I use to keep the whole set, not wanting to break it up. But I think I'm toughening up, and I should not feel bad about booting those wayward balloons. 
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I've struggled a bit with this question, too, but not just with topicals.
Often I need just one stamp to use as an illustration for a web page or exhibit sheet, but the one stamp is often available only in a set. Desirous of instant gratification and loathe to wait until I find a single copy of the stamp, I will usually buy the complete set, if I can afford it. In practical terms that means that I have spent far more than catalogue value on the one stamp than makes good sense. And, once I have the complete set, I feel that I should keep it rather than sell it short of the one stamp I really wanted. I'll never recoup my "investment," because I don't ever plan on selling my collection.
In some cases, I have gone ahead and used the entire set, taking care to point out the one stamp that is significant. Here's an example from my Battle of the Atlantic exhibit.
Bob
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I have two things to address here, so let's start with Bob first:
Bob, I must say that is an excellent presentation and I would not hesitate to keep that pane intact because all of the other stamps are relevant to the overarching story (WWII). If you were doing a topical on coyotes, and a Warner Bros. pane had ONE image of Wile E. Coyote, it would make more sense to tear out the single.
Now to the broader issue: People are free to expand a topical to their hearts desire and include the most dubious of connections. Including an artifact from Nazi Germany does not endorse or condone their actions in any way. Perhaps it's not in the best taste, but I would not be offended. When it comes to lists of topicals provided to members (I'm a member of the American Topical Assn), I prefer EVERYTHING be included because it's easier to exclude things than figure out what's missing.
Lars
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Regarding Guthrum's original question of what constitutes appropriate content for a topical/thematic collection: I think you answered it yourself - the collector determines what is appropriate. What you consider appropriate for a flower collection may not completely agree with what someone else thinks is appropriate.
If you buy a topical/thematic collection - remove the items you don't want in it and put them in other parts of your collection or trade them, sell them or give them away. Be happy with what you collect - not what someone else collected.
Rick, Phoenix
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With respect to the last two posters, the point is being missed here. It is self-evident that you collect what you want to collect, but merely to assert this closes off the "discussion" aspect of "Stamporama Discussions". It is reductive to dismiss an argument by saying that there are lots of points of view, and leaving it at that.
What Rick and Lars do not address is whether they think there is any point in applying the concept of "relevance" to a topical collection - or, more particularly, to a topical exhibit. The question is not "Where should a line be drawn?"; it is not even "Where do you draw the line?". It is "Why do you draw your line where you draw it?"
My original examples were those of supreme irrelevance, and gross bad taste. I drew the line there, because irrelevance detracts from the purpose of the endeavour, and should be (I doubt it is, though) a major sticking-point when judging topical exhibits. The Holocaust letter example showed that the author had no concept of the disjuncture between his subject and his example.
My viewing of prize-winning topical exhibits at Europhilex suggests that the judging committee were struggling to apply consistent standards across the various divisions. There was certainly much irrelevant stuff on show, some of it witty or amusing, but none of it adding to the viewer's philatelic understanding of the subject.
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04:15:59pm
I see what you mean, because of the name "Iris" or "Rose" They throw it into a flower collection. Rather then a Famous person collection, Or a WWII Collection.
It would be like having a dinosaur collection and putting a stamp that depicts an old computer on it because some people call old computers "Dinosaurs" It doesn't quite fit the theme, unless your theme is to be humorous. 
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Well, "relevance" is all relative to one's point of view.
Take the topic of flowers. What flowers are included? There are many types of flowers. It would depend on what type(s) of flowers one likes/dislikes, or even what is the purpose of the collection? If it is a collection of stamps depicting tropical flowers, cactus flowers probably wouldn't fit, but orchids would.
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I can share this story. I used to collect space: planets, rockets, satellites, anything space-related. This soon expanded to fictional characters and futuristic craft of all types. The more crap I amassed, the less I enjoyed it. After a while I began thinking about why I started the collection in the first place.
I was originally fascinated by the manned space missions of the 60s and 70s. After much thought I slowly pared away everything that wasn't related to those missions and I was much happier with what was left!
What's the moral to the story? I dunno. Yes, we collect what we like. But perhaps sometimes we need to examine why we like the things we like. And sometimes our likes or our reasons may change.
Chris
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"And sometimes our likes or our reasons may change."
Amen. And sometimes my likes or reasons change several times in one evening.
-Steve
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"What Rick and Lars do not address is whether they think there is any point in applying the concept of "relevance" to a topical collection - or, more particularly, to a topical exhibit."
I didn't see any reference to topical "exhibits" in your original post, you only mentioned a topical "collection". A topical collection has whatever the collector wants. I have really enjoyed the freedom to define my topical in the way I choose. So to answer your question, there is absolutely NO POINT in applying ANY concept of relevance to a topical collection. Each collector is free to expand or contract the strike zone as they see fit.
If you are talking about judged exhibits, then it would seem to make sense to prefer an exhibit that stays truer to the topic, but I don't exhibit and I really don't care what anyone else thinks about what I included in my topical collection. In fact, it's one of the few areas of collection that I don't have a link to online.
I would imagine that if I had TEN topical collections, I would make them "purer". Since I have only one, it tends to be a bit expansive.
If you are unhappy with judged exhibits, I get the point and agree that judging should include "relevance." If you are talking about personal topical collections, I don't see the problem.
There was a Restaurant called "Skin-Heads" in a nearby town that served potato skins (among other things). If I had a topical for potatoes, and my wife and I went to Skin-Heads for a first date, would it be wrong for me to include any number of Nazi items in my personal potato topical? Of course not. That's my decision. Would I share that part of the topical with others or exhibit it? Absolutely not!
Lars
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'I didn't see any reference to topical "exhibits" in your original post, you only mentioned a topical "collection".'
Apologies about that, Lars; I did expand my argument unfairly, and we do seem to agree on exhibits. But it would be interesting to know what limits you put on your personal topical collection, and why. I believe that might help others, or at least re-arrange their thoughts to their own advantage.
If I may give an example from my "World War Two" collection: it includes stamps commemorating events, anniversaries, places or people connected to that conflict. Its principal purpose is to examine how different countries have chosen to reflect upon WW2 via their stamp issues.
However (and all topical collectors will have a view about this) there are now many countries (or stamp-issuing entities) whose issuing policy has nothing to do with reflection, or whose participation in or contribution to WW2 is disproportionate to the number of sets they put out. This is a judgment call on my part, and I exclude them.
(Annoyingly, I immediately break my own rule by assembling the Marshall Islands sets from the 1990s as an educational tool - they provided a wide-ranging and well-illustrated pictorial overview which schoolbooks could not match.)
Other self-imposed limitations: no Churchill sets. A very close look at 'hardwarist' sets featuring tanks or planes or motorbikes of WW2. A growing exasperation with GB 'outlier' issuing entities (Isle of Man, Jersey, etc.), which are no longer really thinking about WW2, much less postal usage, but more about gross domestic product.
I could go on, and any one of these might be challenged. Around the edges of a topical collection there will always be inclusions which will baffle some and not concern others. But as Chris says, there should always be that self-examination: why we like the things we like. What is the core purpose of our collection?
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Hi Guthrum,
I think we should cut the Channel Islands some slack on wartime issues.
They were the only parts of the British Isles to be occupied by the Germans and it was a very difficult period for them.
Happily the Isle of Man escaped that fate but they did have many wartime connections especially hosting internment camps for enemy nationals.
All the best,
Nigel
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This is of course true, Nigel, yet many of the more recent issues from IOM and CI have been 'generic' WW2 stuff and bear little relevance to the actual wartime experience there. I still buy them, but with a certain reluctance. They suffer from the irritating GB practice of issuing high value sets to no purpose other than the obvious.
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Guthrum,
My topical is mermaids, so the big question is what exactly is a mermaid versus a siren, or a harpie, or a sprite, or a water nymph, etc. The way I personally treat that issue is to obtain a single example of something that should not be included, and include it with a narrative explaining why it doesn't belong and perhaps list a few other examples in that category. I could have just as easily included the narrative without the non-compliant example, but I chose to include it. I don't exhibit, so I did it the way I wanted to.
Lars
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I would have thought that the big question is "Why mermaids?"!
Obviously you will have an answer to that, and it will inform all your criteria for inclusion. The idea of including a counter-example by way of setting parameters is interesting - I've not seen it done. There are areas in my "WW2" which I am still unsure about - usually personalities whose lives were touched by the war, but whose career or fame lay in a different or tangential direction (Georgi Dimitrov, the Bulgarian communist leader, appears on several stamps, but I've not made up my mind whether he belongs in a "WW2" collection yet.) I also find that (for example) just because certain political events took place during WW2, they were not necessarily relevant to it.
I don't exhibit either, but like to create and fill my album pages (predominantly self-generated) as if they were to be seen by multitudes!
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Hi Alanna;
"Alanna Said:
It would be like having a dinosaur collection and putting a stamp that depicts an old computer on
it because some people call old computers "Dinosaurs" It doesn't quite fit the theme, unless your
theme is to be humorous."
I'm glad you post on here a lot. You bring a certain sparkle to our threads with your wit and humorous
replies. Keep them coming, we love it. It makes this place so much more sane and enjoyable. And that
goes for all the others on here who show a sense of humor now and then.
@ larsdog;
I don't have a topical collection of Mermaids, tho....I prefer the real one I saw when I was in the US Navy
in the Indian Ocean, and she was so hot, red hair and deep green eyes!! She is known only as Maurene,
is very British, and once rode in Britannia's Chariot, and knows well the two sea horses also.
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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Guthrum:
"The idea of including a counter-example by way of setting parameters is interesting - I've not seen it done."
That's the whole idea behind my "Beyond BOB" collection. Examples of stuff that I DON'T collect:
http://www.larsdog.com/stamps/beyond.htm
TuskenRaider:
"I don't have a topical collection of Mermaids, tho....I prefer the real one I saw when I was in the US Navy"
I do have a couple of cachets included from the U.S. Navy for my mermaid collection. Be careful about the "real deal", though. Rumor has it that too many days at sea can make a manatee look like a mermaid!
Cheers!
Lars
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Guthrum:
"I also find that (for example) just because certain political events took place during WW2, they were not necessarily relevant to it."
A similar problem will exist with any topical. I really think (if you don't exhibit) that it depends on how many topicals you have. If you only have one, you will tend to be expansive. If you have several, you will tend to be more narrow in your focus, I should think.
"I don't exhibit either, but like to create and fill my album pages (predominantly self-generated) as if they were to be seen by multitudes!"
When I get things organized in a way that is satisfying to me, I will add a link to my web site and share it with the multitudes. Knowing that ANYBODY can offer an unsolicited critique helps motivate me to get it as "right" as I can and helps me fix problems that are identified by others.
Bets wishes in you pursuits!
Lars
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I don't think it's WHAT you put in your topical collection, but HOW you tie it in.
For instance, I collect a lot of car things. The first US stamp with a car on it is Scott 296 of 1901 that features an "Electric Car", which I believe is a Studebaker. Would it be wrong for me to include a cover with a Studebaker corner card of that era? I would in a second! And I'm sure I could tie it in sufficiently to win over any contest judge viewing my topical collection. I'd even go as far as including a postmark from South Bend, Indiana of the era. That was Studebaker's hometown.
I do have some interesting covers I've tucked away in my auto related collection. One of my favorites is a bill from a Ford dealer to a customer for work on a Model T in the 1920s. And I have covers from several other long lost auto makers from the teens thru the 1930s.
Here's another of my favorites. Ransom Eli Olds had started Oldsmobile back in the 1902 era. He merged it into a newly formed General Motors, and soon found himself muscled out of his own company and on the street! So he didn't get mad, he got even! Not allowed to use his name in another automotive enterprise, he used his initials R.E.O. and started another car company. He had great success with cars like his Speedwagon (hence the band name) and the company lived on as a truck company Diamond REO all the way to the 1980s or so.
Is that considered a topical collection?
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...I would absolutely LOVE to have that cover!!
Randy
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If you like your hypothetical Studebaker assemblage, that's great for you.
To me, it sounds more like a scrapbook than a stamp collection.
Chris
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APS exhibiting rules include the Display Class, which allows a mix of philatelic and collateral, non-philatelic items. The goal of Display Class exhibits, of course, should be to expand the meaning of the stamps and covers and other postal items that inspired the collection in the first place.
Thus, an exhibit can include stamps, covers, letters, ration cards, telegrams, postcards, postal cards, maps, photographs, advertisements, tickets, ID cards, currency and coins, uniform insignia, official documents, labels, airmail etiquettes, autographs, and even three-dimensional objects like medals, toys, cancellation hammers and handstamps.
Exhibits of nothing more than stamps and/or covers are important, of course, but to me a well-conceived and designed Display Class exhibits place philately more broadly in the context of human experience.
All of the four or five exhibits I have done have been Display Class exhibits, for which I've never earned less than a silver medal, and got a gold medal for one of them. Two of them are on-line:
• 37 Days in Vietnam — A hospital corpsman’s story
• Compassion in Times of War: The evolution of military medicine
Bob
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I have a certain amount of sympathy for Chris's view. The exhaustive list that Bob gives us would (for me) be several stages too far into scrapbook territory, a huge disadvantage of which is that there are no very clear parameters. The APS's designation "Display Class" is apt: a peacock's tail of wondrous objects, many of them stamps. These will be assembled with no little ingenuity: finding unexpected links is amusing and clever. But ultimately the wellspring of such a display will be its subject - the stamps are an adjunct, no more and no less than the postcards, the medals, the coins, et al. In his role as overseer of this cabinet of curiosities, the topical collector will seek ever more outré examples, such as the horrors with which I started this thread. Will all this ostentation tell us more about the subject it illustrates, or the stamps themselves? I'm not so sure.
So, let us assume that I own all of these as originals (as opposed to internet downloads). My Display Class theme is the Battle of Stalingrad. Which of these would you include?
1973 commemorative MS / "Triangle" of the sort Soviet soldiers sent free of charge back to their families
Stalingrad veterans medal / photograph of the Children's Khorovod, iconic Stalingrad image / 1945 commemorative MS
Poster of the latest Stalingrad film / book cover / BBC artwork for broadcast of Life and Fate, Vasily Grossman's novel of the Battle of Stalingrad
For me there would be little argument: for a scrapbook (or a home museum display cabinet), all of them (wish I had the Russian film poster, actually!). For an exhibit at a Stamp Fair, even under APS Display Class rules, only some. And you?
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Guthrum said, commenting about my recent post, and others, I assume:
"Will all this ostentation tell us more about the subject it illustrates, or the stamps themselves?"
I was attempting to tell members what I had learned about Display Class exhibiting, thinking that they might be interested. It certainly is an aspect of philately that I have enjoyed. It has, in fact, kept my interest in collecting alive. Now, however, I am told that because of this type of collecting I am ostentatious. Well, my apologies. I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone by simply explaining something that I enjoy.
Bob
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Bob needs not apologize for anything.
If the articles he mentions are "display class" - well they read like novels.
There is a real life relevancy to them one can appreciate.
For some a 20 page history lesson on an obscure author may be a great exhibit.
Some of us even think a collection of Monty Wedd is the ticket
Everyone should enjoy what they get out of the hobby without worrying about "parameters & strict relevance"
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Amen and amen....
everyone is free to decide for themselves.
If you want to think inside a narrow box -so be it;
if you prefer to think OUTside the box -no matter how wide it is - so be it.
Every collection is personal to the individual assembling it and should be pursued in such a way as to satisfy ONE individual, ultimately; YOU!
Randy
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Oh....and for the record, I have been known to do BOTH.
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"With respect to the last two posters, the point is being missed here. It is self-evident that you collect what you want to collect, but merely to assert this closes off the "discussion" aspect of "Stamporama Discussions". It is reductive to dismiss an argument by saying that there are lots of points of view, and leaving it at that."
Come on, gentlemen, we're going round in circles here! My 'collection' of Stalingrad ephemera is there for you to decide what you would put in a topical 'Display Class' exhibit. You've ignored it. If you're not interested in that question, fine, let it go. Please.
I have PM'd Bob with an apology: I was certainly not referring to anything he has shown us at Stamporama.
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There are no rules when it comes to stamp-collecting, which is one of the advantages of the hobby. But I find some aspects of Topicals (we called them 'thematics' in the UK) puzzling indeed.
Let us take 'flowers' as an example. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of flower-images on stamps of the world, and it would be pleasing to assemble and classify these images into some sort of order which satisfies one's interest; perhaps particular flowers, such as orchids, or flowers of a particular part of the world. Although 'flowers' seems politically or nationalistically neutral, a collection might investigate why certain countries issue more such stamps, and others practically none.
However, a topical collector must surely set boundaries. What about stamps which do not set out to depict flowers, but which have incidental blooms in their background? What if those blooms are 'generic' flowers, not botanically identifiable? What would be the point of including those?
More puzzling still is when the collector expands the topic beyond rationality. Here is an example:
This lady is Iris von Roten, a Swiss journalist who so far as I know did not write on botanical subjects. Yet the stamp finds a way, via nominative determinism, into a topical collection of flowers.
The most egregious example of this was reported to me by a dealer a few years ago. Here is what a Topical collector deemed fit to include in his/her 'Flower' collection:
Yes, it's what you feared - a cover from the Gross-Rosen concentration camp in Poland. Possibly it went onto the collector's 'Big Roses' page.
As I said, you can collect whatever you like, and set your own limits. But taking topicals beyond reason makes the puzzled viewer slip into judgmental mode: crazy! WRONG!
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
As another Brit, it's nice to see 'Topicals' being called Thematics !
I collect Flags on Stamps and in particular those of USA, Canada and GB. For the USA section I collect Mint and Used, PNC's, PNC singles and Plate Blocks. I have been asked on a number of occasions why I have so many of the same stamp in my Flag collection !!
Not as obscure as your examples but they have caused a concerning look !! (for my wealth mainly I believe !}
Londonbus1
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12:03:48pm
re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
As a keen gardener ( but not a thematic flower collector). I think there is only one clear way to collect flower stamps -by toxonomical division.Such a method could be an aide-memoir to botanical study.
Family, then Genus, then Species, then cultivar
Higher divisions than family becomes a little esoteric other than for advanced students of botany ( which is not me ! ).My Botany is limited to what I need to know to propagate plants.
The only problem is where to place cultivars which are the product of hybridisation between different species as opposed to selective breeding of one species - especially highly developed plants such as Roses with multiple hybridisations of multiple hybridisations where even the botanists are unsure of their origin.
I suppose people whose perceptions of plants are different might consider other variations,but to me they would not be logical.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
You could always sort by colour and make a flowerbed on the page. Even design what you would see in your own garden,such as an island bed of one variety edged with another and with dot/accent plants within.
Create a landscape picture much as a quilter would do when using material.
vic
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
One of the joys of topical collecting is that is tends to free one from following the listings in a catalog or pics in an album. The collection can be arranged any old way that makes you happy. If using strict toxonomical divisions floats your boat then go for it. If you want them arranged by color - lovely! The point is to have fun!
I have one little topical collection; dogs. I currently have them arranged by country just to make it easier to find and file, but I've separated out the Schnauzers for a little mini topical collection. I have no intention of buying every dog stamp ever issued, I only buy ones that I find attractive in some way - it's a pure magpie accumulation and very enjoyable.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I have struggled with where to draw the lines in my Airship collection. If it is a dirigible on a stamp, I want it in my collection. The problems arise when the airship is part of set of balloons. I use to keep the whole set, not wanting to break it up. But I think I'm toughening up, and I should not feel bad about booting those wayward balloons.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I've struggled a bit with this question, too, but not just with topicals.
Often I need just one stamp to use as an illustration for a web page or exhibit sheet, but the one stamp is often available only in a set. Desirous of instant gratification and loathe to wait until I find a single copy of the stamp, I will usually buy the complete set, if I can afford it. In practical terms that means that I have spent far more than catalogue value on the one stamp than makes good sense. And, once I have the complete set, I feel that I should keep it rather than sell it short of the one stamp I really wanted. I'll never recoup my "investment," because I don't ever plan on selling my collection.
In some cases, I have gone ahead and used the entire set, taking care to point out the one stamp that is significant. Here's an example from my Battle of the Atlantic exhibit.
Bob
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I have two things to address here, so let's start with Bob first:
Bob, I must say that is an excellent presentation and I would not hesitate to keep that pane intact because all of the other stamps are relevant to the overarching story (WWII). If you were doing a topical on coyotes, and a Warner Bros. pane had ONE image of Wile E. Coyote, it would make more sense to tear out the single.
Now to the broader issue: People are free to expand a topical to their hearts desire and include the most dubious of connections. Including an artifact from Nazi Germany does not endorse or condone their actions in any way. Perhaps it's not in the best taste, but I would not be offended. When it comes to lists of topicals provided to members (I'm a member of the American Topical Assn), I prefer EVERYTHING be included because it's easier to exclude things than figure out what's missing.
Lars
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Regarding Guthrum's original question of what constitutes appropriate content for a topical/thematic collection: I think you answered it yourself - the collector determines what is appropriate. What you consider appropriate for a flower collection may not completely agree with what someone else thinks is appropriate.
If you buy a topical/thematic collection - remove the items you don't want in it and put them in other parts of your collection or trade them, sell them or give them away. Be happy with what you collect - not what someone else collected.
Rick, Phoenix
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
With respect to the last two posters, the point is being missed here. It is self-evident that you collect what you want to collect, but merely to assert this closes off the "discussion" aspect of "Stamporama Discussions". It is reductive to dismiss an argument by saying that there are lots of points of view, and leaving it at that.
What Rick and Lars do not address is whether they think there is any point in applying the concept of "relevance" to a topical collection - or, more particularly, to a topical exhibit. The question is not "Where should a line be drawn?"; it is not even "Where do you draw the line?". It is "Why do you draw your line where you draw it?"
My original examples were those of supreme irrelevance, and gross bad taste. I drew the line there, because irrelevance detracts from the purpose of the endeavour, and should be (I doubt it is, though) a major sticking-point when judging topical exhibits. The Holocaust letter example showed that the author had no concept of the disjuncture between his subject and his example.
My viewing of prize-winning topical exhibits at Europhilex suggests that the judging committee were struggling to apply consistent standards across the various divisions. There was certainly much irrelevant stuff on show, some of it witty or amusing, but none of it adding to the viewer's philatelic understanding of the subject.
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Wanting to bring the joy of stamp collecting to younger generations
18 May 2015
04:15:59pm
re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I see what you mean, because of the name "Iris" or "Rose" They throw it into a flower collection. Rather then a Famous person collection, Or a WWII Collection.
It would be like having a dinosaur collection and putting a stamp that depicts an old computer on it because some people call old computers "Dinosaurs" It doesn't quite fit the theme, unless your theme is to be humorous.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Well, "relevance" is all relative to one's point of view.
Take the topic of flowers. What flowers are included? There are many types of flowers. It would depend on what type(s) of flowers one likes/dislikes, or even what is the purpose of the collection? If it is a collection of stamps depicting tropical flowers, cactus flowers probably wouldn't fit, but orchids would.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I can share this story. I used to collect space: planets, rockets, satellites, anything space-related. This soon expanded to fictional characters and futuristic craft of all types. The more crap I amassed, the less I enjoyed it. After a while I began thinking about why I started the collection in the first place.
I was originally fascinated by the manned space missions of the 60s and 70s. After much thought I slowly pared away everything that wasn't related to those missions and I was much happier with what was left!
What's the moral to the story? I dunno. Yes, we collect what we like. But perhaps sometimes we need to examine why we like the things we like. And sometimes our likes or our reasons may change.
Chris
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
"And sometimes our likes or our reasons may change."
Amen. And sometimes my likes or reasons change several times in one evening.
-Steve
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
"What Rick and Lars do not address is whether they think there is any point in applying the concept of "relevance" to a topical collection - or, more particularly, to a topical exhibit."
I didn't see any reference to topical "exhibits" in your original post, you only mentioned a topical "collection". A topical collection has whatever the collector wants. I have really enjoyed the freedom to define my topical in the way I choose. So to answer your question, there is absolutely NO POINT in applying ANY concept of relevance to a topical collection. Each collector is free to expand or contract the strike zone as they see fit.
If you are talking about judged exhibits, then it would seem to make sense to prefer an exhibit that stays truer to the topic, but I don't exhibit and I really don't care what anyone else thinks about what I included in my topical collection. In fact, it's one of the few areas of collection that I don't have a link to online.
I would imagine that if I had TEN topical collections, I would make them "purer". Since I have only one, it tends to be a bit expansive.
If you are unhappy with judged exhibits, I get the point and agree that judging should include "relevance." If you are talking about personal topical collections, I don't see the problem.
There was a Restaurant called "Skin-Heads" in a nearby town that served potato skins (among other things). If I had a topical for potatoes, and my wife and I went to Skin-Heads for a first date, would it be wrong for me to include any number of Nazi items in my personal potato topical? Of course not. That's my decision. Would I share that part of the topical with others or exhibit it? Absolutely not!
Lars
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
'I didn't see any reference to topical "exhibits" in your original post, you only mentioned a topical "collection".'
Apologies about that, Lars; I did expand my argument unfairly, and we do seem to agree on exhibits. But it would be interesting to know what limits you put on your personal topical collection, and why. I believe that might help others, or at least re-arrange their thoughts to their own advantage.
If I may give an example from my "World War Two" collection: it includes stamps commemorating events, anniversaries, places or people connected to that conflict. Its principal purpose is to examine how different countries have chosen to reflect upon WW2 via their stamp issues.
However (and all topical collectors will have a view about this) there are now many countries (or stamp-issuing entities) whose issuing policy has nothing to do with reflection, or whose participation in or contribution to WW2 is disproportionate to the number of sets they put out. This is a judgment call on my part, and I exclude them.
(Annoyingly, I immediately break my own rule by assembling the Marshall Islands sets from the 1990s as an educational tool - they provided a wide-ranging and well-illustrated pictorial overview which schoolbooks could not match.)
Other self-imposed limitations: no Churchill sets. A very close look at 'hardwarist' sets featuring tanks or planes or motorbikes of WW2. A growing exasperation with GB 'outlier' issuing entities (Isle of Man, Jersey, etc.), which are no longer really thinking about WW2, much less postal usage, but more about gross domestic product.
I could go on, and any one of these might be challenged. Around the edges of a topical collection there will always be inclusions which will baffle some and not concern others. But as Chris says, there should always be that self-examination: why we like the things we like. What is the core purpose of our collection?
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Hi Guthrum,
I think we should cut the Channel Islands some slack on wartime issues.
They were the only parts of the British Isles to be occupied by the Germans and it was a very difficult period for them.
Happily the Isle of Man escaped that fate but they did have many wartime connections especially hosting internment camps for enemy nationals.
All the best,
Nigel
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
This is of course true, Nigel, yet many of the more recent issues from IOM and CI have been 'generic' WW2 stuff and bear little relevance to the actual wartime experience there. I still buy them, but with a certain reluctance. They suffer from the irritating GB practice of issuing high value sets to no purpose other than the obvious.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Guthrum,
My topical is mermaids, so the big question is what exactly is a mermaid versus a siren, or a harpie, or a sprite, or a water nymph, etc. The way I personally treat that issue is to obtain a single example of something that should not be included, and include it with a narrative explaining why it doesn't belong and perhaps list a few other examples in that category. I could have just as easily included the narrative without the non-compliant example, but I chose to include it. I don't exhibit, so I did it the way I wanted to.
Lars
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I would have thought that the big question is "Why mermaids?"!
Obviously you will have an answer to that, and it will inform all your criteria for inclusion. The idea of including a counter-example by way of setting parameters is interesting - I've not seen it done. There are areas in my "WW2" which I am still unsure about - usually personalities whose lives were touched by the war, but whose career or fame lay in a different or tangential direction (Georgi Dimitrov, the Bulgarian communist leader, appears on several stamps, but I've not made up my mind whether he belongs in a "WW2" collection yet.) I also find that (for example) just because certain political events took place during WW2, they were not necessarily relevant to it.
I don't exhibit either, but like to create and fill my album pages (predominantly self-generated) as if they were to be seen by multitudes!
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Hi Alanna;
"Alanna Said:
It would be like having a dinosaur collection and putting a stamp that depicts an old computer on
it because some people call old computers "Dinosaurs" It doesn't quite fit the theme, unless your
theme is to be humorous."
I'm glad you post on here a lot. You bring a certain sparkle to our threads with your wit and humorous
replies. Keep them coming, we love it. It makes this place so much more sane and enjoyable. And that
goes for all the others on here who show a sense of humor now and then.
@ larsdog;
I don't have a topical collection of Mermaids, tho....I prefer the real one I saw when I was in the US Navy
in the Indian Ocean, and she was so hot, red hair and deep green eyes!! She is known only as Maurene,
is very British, and once rode in Britannia's Chariot, and knows well the two sea horses also.
Just Chillin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Guthrum:
"The idea of including a counter-example by way of setting parameters is interesting - I've not seen it done."
That's the whole idea behind my "Beyond BOB" collection. Examples of stuff that I DON'T collect:
http://www.larsdog.com/stamps/beyond.htm
TuskenRaider:
"I don't have a topical collection of Mermaids, tho....I prefer the real one I saw when I was in the US Navy"
I do have a couple of cachets included from the U.S. Navy for my mermaid collection. Be careful about the "real deal", though. Rumor has it that too many days at sea can make a manatee look like a mermaid!
Cheers!
Lars
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Guthrum:
"I also find that (for example) just because certain political events took place during WW2, they were not necessarily relevant to it."
A similar problem will exist with any topical. I really think (if you don't exhibit) that it depends on how many topicals you have. If you only have one, you will tend to be expansive. If you have several, you will tend to be more narrow in your focus, I should think.
"I don't exhibit either, but like to create and fill my album pages (predominantly self-generated) as if they were to be seen by multitudes!"
When I get things organized in a way that is satisfying to me, I will add a link to my web site and share it with the multitudes. Knowing that ANYBODY can offer an unsolicited critique helps motivate me to get it as "right" as I can and helps me fix problems that are identified by others.
Bets wishes in you pursuits!
Lars
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I don't think it's WHAT you put in your topical collection, but HOW you tie it in.
For instance, I collect a lot of car things. The first US stamp with a car on it is Scott 296 of 1901 that features an "Electric Car", which I believe is a Studebaker. Would it be wrong for me to include a cover with a Studebaker corner card of that era? I would in a second! And I'm sure I could tie it in sufficiently to win over any contest judge viewing my topical collection. I'd even go as far as including a postmark from South Bend, Indiana of the era. That was Studebaker's hometown.
I do have some interesting covers I've tucked away in my auto related collection. One of my favorites is a bill from a Ford dealer to a customer for work on a Model T in the 1920s. And I have covers from several other long lost auto makers from the teens thru the 1930s.
Here's another of my favorites. Ransom Eli Olds had started Oldsmobile back in the 1902 era. He merged it into a newly formed General Motors, and soon found himself muscled out of his own company and on the street! So he didn't get mad, he got even! Not allowed to use his name in another automotive enterprise, he used his initials R.E.O. and started another car company. He had great success with cars like his Speedwagon (hence the band name) and the company lived on as a truck company Diamond REO all the way to the 1980s or so.
Is that considered a topical collection?
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
...I would absolutely LOVE to have that cover!!
Randy
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
If you like your hypothetical Studebaker assemblage, that's great for you.
To me, it sounds more like a scrapbook than a stamp collection.
Chris
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
APS exhibiting rules include the Display Class, which allows a mix of philatelic and collateral, non-philatelic items. The goal of Display Class exhibits, of course, should be to expand the meaning of the stamps and covers and other postal items that inspired the collection in the first place.
Thus, an exhibit can include stamps, covers, letters, ration cards, telegrams, postcards, postal cards, maps, photographs, advertisements, tickets, ID cards, currency and coins, uniform insignia, official documents, labels, airmail etiquettes, autographs, and even three-dimensional objects like medals, toys, cancellation hammers and handstamps.
Exhibits of nothing more than stamps and/or covers are important, of course, but to me a well-conceived and designed Display Class exhibits place philately more broadly in the context of human experience.
All of the four or five exhibits I have done have been Display Class exhibits, for which I've never earned less than a silver medal, and got a gold medal for one of them. Two of them are on-line:
• 37 Days in Vietnam — A hospital corpsman’s story
• Compassion in Times of War: The evolution of military medicine
Bob
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
I have a certain amount of sympathy for Chris's view. The exhaustive list that Bob gives us would (for me) be several stages too far into scrapbook territory, a huge disadvantage of which is that there are no very clear parameters. The APS's designation "Display Class" is apt: a peacock's tail of wondrous objects, many of them stamps. These will be assembled with no little ingenuity: finding unexpected links is amusing and clever. But ultimately the wellspring of such a display will be its subject - the stamps are an adjunct, no more and no less than the postcards, the medals, the coins, et al. In his role as overseer of this cabinet of curiosities, the topical collector will seek ever more outré examples, such as the horrors with which I started this thread. Will all this ostentation tell us more about the subject it illustrates, or the stamps themselves? I'm not so sure.
So, let us assume that I own all of these as originals (as opposed to internet downloads). My Display Class theme is the Battle of Stalingrad. Which of these would you include?
1973 commemorative MS / "Triangle" of the sort Soviet soldiers sent free of charge back to their families
Stalingrad veterans medal / photograph of the Children's Khorovod, iconic Stalingrad image / 1945 commemorative MS
Poster of the latest Stalingrad film / book cover / BBC artwork for broadcast of Life and Fate, Vasily Grossman's novel of the Battle of Stalingrad
For me there would be little argument: for a scrapbook (or a home museum display cabinet), all of them (wish I had the Russian film poster, actually!). For an exhibit at a Stamp Fair, even under APS Display Class rules, only some. And you?
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Guthrum said, commenting about my recent post, and others, I assume:
"Will all this ostentation tell us more about the subject it illustrates, or the stamps themselves?"
I was attempting to tell members what I had learned about Display Class exhibiting, thinking that they might be interested. It certainly is an aspect of philately that I have enjoyed. It has, in fact, kept my interest in collecting alive. Now, however, I am told that because of this type of collecting I am ostentatious. Well, my apologies. I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone by simply explaining something that I enjoy.
Bob
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08:57:30pm
re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Bob needs not apologize for anything.
If the articles he mentions are "display class" - well they read like novels.
There is a real life relevancy to them one can appreciate.
For some a 20 page history lesson on an obscure author may be a great exhibit.
Some of us even think a collection of Monty Wedd is the ticket
Everyone should enjoy what they get out of the hobby without worrying about "parameters & strict relevance"
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Amen and amen....
everyone is free to decide for themselves.
If you want to think inside a narrow box -so be it;
if you prefer to think OUTside the box -no matter how wide it is - so be it.
Every collection is personal to the individual assembling it and should be pursued in such a way as to satisfy ONE individual, ultimately; YOU!
Randy
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
Oh....and for the record, I have been known to do BOTH.
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re: Taking Topicals Beyond Reason
"With respect to the last two posters, the point is being missed here. It is self-evident that you collect what you want to collect, but merely to assert this closes off the "discussion" aspect of "Stamporama Discussions". It is reductive to dismiss an argument by saying that there are lots of points of view, and leaving it at that."
Come on, gentlemen, we're going round in circles here! My 'collection' of Stalingrad ephemera is there for you to decide what you would put in a topical 'Display Class' exhibit. You've ignored it. If you're not interested in that question, fine, let it go. Please.
I have PM'd Bob with an apology: I was certainly not referring to anything he has shown us at Stamporama.
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