Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
09:16:40pm
" ... What are they used for? Looks like trial proofs or something. ..."
Rather than bury some interesting information in a thread in the General Topic I thought I'd post a list that partly explains their usage on UK mail.
First they are quite large, 60x65mm and the die cut perforated issues are "p5x5."
Four can cover the standard page.
The image above is the way the rolls are delivered to the local post office, virginal, so to speak. When sold an inscription is printed showing the service paid for, plus a series of lines with the post office name or codes allowing the mail to be directed, tracked and the funds accounted for.
The block lettering on Horizon mail and Parcelforce mail indicate a large array of possible services available depending on size, special handling and security. Here is a general list that shows current and past usages and which might be found on mail. Several are for large parcels that are not likely to be saved and sent to kilo-ware servicers so should be difficult to discover postally used. However this list should give us some idea about how the mail was dispatched.
1LG - Large Letter Inland Mail
1PK - 1st Class packet Inland Mail
1af -- Articles for the blind (Free)
1st -- No charge certificate of posting requested
2L -- 2nd class under 100g (RSF service)
2LG - Large Letter 5mm to 25mm thick (RSFO)
2PK - 2nd class packets
A ---- Letters, small packets sent by Airmail
AXX - Air-sure Tracking to safe countries
BL --- Letters to Armed Forces at home or overseas
BLG - Large letters to British Armed Forces
BPK - Packets to British Armed Forces
BFF - To "BRPO"s from Family and Friends
FP --- When re-posted after postage is corrected
MOR - Mail Order Return service
RPR - Returned commercial Packet service
SD -- Special Delivery
SU -- Surface mail overseas low cost
........("Delivery times can take from two weeks to Western Europe
........and as long as 12 weeks to Australia.")
BF -- Parcels to Armed Forces overseas.
PE ---Economy parcels to overseas destinations
PS -- Standard value parcels to overseas destination
SP -- Standard parcels (replaced by PE and PS )
RSF - Recorded Signed For mail
1SP - Small Parcel, less than 2kg
1MP - Medium Parcels
2SP - Parcel larger than an "SP" but still less that 2kg
2MP - Bigger than an "SP up to 20kg
BSP - Replaces small "BKP" to British Armed Forces
BMP - Replaces medium "BKP" to British Armed Forces
SD1 - Special Delivery by 1PM
SD9 - Special delivery by 9AM
IS --- International Service
IT --- International Service, Tracked
ITS -- International Service, Tracked and Signed for
It is important to note that some of these listings were provided to replace all or a segment of a previous service. The dates and usages are listed in the Deegam Complete Machin Handbook and comprise of some eighty-five pages, about twelve of overall explanations and the rest, lists of printings and dates of usages.
They were produced by at least two printers, De la Rue and Walsall, with different typefaces and two languages, English and Welsh. So collecting them all will be a daunting task for those who might choose to form a specialized collection. Also some are both imperforate as well as with large teethed die cut perforations.
Subsequently more additions splitting of issues, and cancellations may have occured.
Overseas recorded and tracking services are limited to "Safe Destinations" due to the poor safety record or unavailability of such tracking.
The number of destinations is currently 30. These are mainly in Europe (but not Italy or Norway) plus Brazil, Canada, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and USA.
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Thankyou Charlie for posting this info... I have a few of these but was not sure what the initials represented...THANKYOU
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That's one heck of a twist to collecting Machins!
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Just a couple of points;
The labels are supplied in sheets of two labels. Each sheet is the same size as a cheque (or check (USA)). The technology used to print the postage details is adopted from standard cheque printing equipment.
They are about to be replaced by a new style with the Queens head in the top right corner and the background printing gradually fading to clear (in the bottom left corner) to allow a clearer area for the postage details to be printed. I have not seen any examples to see if the printing will be different. There is an image of the new blank label here - http://blog.norphil.co.uk/2015/05/new-horizon-label-at-temporary-post.html
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Here is an unused pair I got from a friend of mine in the UK.
Chimo
Bujutsu
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Note that these are not available to the public in unused condition as shown above.
You hand your cash to the clerk, who prints the label.He/she attaches the label and puts the item in the bag behind the counter. As a customer you do not handle the label yourself (unprinted or printed). Unprinted labels are completely valueless.
While it is probably not strictly illegal to own such items, whoever allowed them out of the post office is almost certainly guilty of breaching procedures and liable to disciplinary action falling short of dismissal ( for an isolated incident). As they do not leave post office control there is no necessity to postmark these, so by definition a printed example is "used" - even if by happenstance it never sees an envelope or parcel.
Malcolm
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Yes This info is correct... Glad to hear it confirmed by another member of Stamporama
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What is the value of these labels?
Mike
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11:16:18pm
" .... What is the value of these labels? ...."
Well, of the very common service usages, not much. A friend in the UK sent me a small bag of them. And I sent a sample of one each to someone here, all gratis.
Some of the less commonly used services may eventually attract some collectors who want a full set which may cause them to command some premium. But, except for the discontinued service labels, all anyone in the UK needs to do is go to a post office and send himself a letter or parcel with one affixed since they are printed at the post counter.
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If the issuing post office gets 25 of the 63 pence of the fee, Royal Mail only gets 38 pence to collect from the office, sort and deliver ( the most expensive portion of the process) the letter.This makes absolutely no sense - no wonder they don't make any money on letter delivery! Accountants strike again !
Malcolm
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Ha!
The present Government ( and the EU) is anti cross-subsidisation in any form - therefore there is a default position that every part of every business should be profitable in it's own right ( which is where I was coming from in my original post - I didn't by the way say that I agreed with the premise ). Given this default position this makes the figures a nonsense- in effect the letter post is cross-subsidising PO Counters and their agencies to it's own financial disadvantage. Also bear in mind that the division of "the Post Office" into Post Office Counters, Royal Mail and Parcel Force was to facilitate the reduction of cross-subsidisation, therefore there is some double-thinking involved here.Also it is a fact that the ridiculous rates paid to the letterpost for delivering their competitors mail means that the likes of TNT and DHL are having their profits subsidised by the letter post delivery arm.
Methinks that the selling of lettermail stamps through every corner shop has led to such reduction of revenue for PO counters that this is a back-door way of bringing their revenue up artificially. Also bear in mind that many outlets with a post office agency are also selling stamps in their "normal" business in direct competition with their own post office agency.
I was brought up in the bus industry which was the epitome of cross-subsidisation( the companies used part of the profits from the busiest routes to spread the overheads to make the less profitable routes more viable. Political machinations brought about the end of cross-subsidisation,public ownership,and regulation of bus services based on public need rather than private profit. The result today- worse bus services, private instead of public monopoly (public monopoly was a myth anyway - the four largest private groups who by and large take care not to compete with each other directly now have a MUCH greater share of the traffic that the state owned National Bus Company ever did), the highest ever local government subsidisation of local services and fares out of the reach of most people who need the service most ( low-income people without access to a car).
The powers -that-be really need to get clear in their minds what they want, do it, and then if the results are not to their liking own-up to it and not try to "fudge the figures" so that they show some more acceptable result, but of course we are talking about government here. Unfortunately more and more politicians these days go straight from University to Political Life, and have never actually had a "proper job", and yet we trust them to make sensible decisions about "real life".
Malcolm
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"The local Post Office gets paid 25pence( 38cents) for every Label it issues. If they put stamps on letters / parcels they are only paid 1pence!!!"
So this is why I get dirty looks every time I have a package weighed at my local post office! I always affix my own stamps, and find these labels unnecessarily large and obviously designed to usurp the proper use of postage stamps sooner rather than later. I dare say when the next monarch succeeds no further postage stamps will be issued, except to collectors at rare and barely accessible venues.
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09:56:07am
" .... except to collectors at rare and barely accessible venues. ...."
Possibly only on moonless nights at midnight ???
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
22 Apr 2015
09:16:40pm
In the General discussion topic Chimo displayed a pair of these attractive labels which prompted the obvious question ;
" ... What are they used for? Looks like trial proofs or something. ..."
Rather than bury some interesting information in a thread in the General Topic I thought I'd post a list that partly explains their usage on UK mail.
First they are quite large, 60x65mm and the die cut perforated issues are "p5x5."
Four can cover the standard page.
The image above is the way the rolls are delivered to the local post office, virginal, so to speak. When sold an inscription is printed showing the service paid for, plus a series of lines with the post office name or codes allowing the mail to be directed, tracked and the funds accounted for.
The block lettering on Horizon mail and Parcelforce mail indicate a large array of possible services available depending on size, special handling and security. Here is a general list that shows current and past usages and which might be found on mail. Several are for large parcels that are not likely to be saved and sent to kilo-ware servicers so should be difficult to discover postally used. However this list should give us some idea about how the mail was dispatched.
1LG - Large Letter Inland Mail
1PK - 1st Class packet Inland Mail
1af -- Articles for the blind (Free)
1st -- No charge certificate of posting requested
2L -- 2nd class under 100g (RSF service)
2LG - Large Letter 5mm to 25mm thick (RSFO)
2PK - 2nd class packets
A ---- Letters, small packets sent by Airmail
AXX - Air-sure Tracking to safe countries
BL --- Letters to Armed Forces at home or overseas
BLG - Large letters to British Armed Forces
BPK - Packets to British Armed Forces
BFF - To "BRPO"s from Family and Friends
FP --- When re-posted after postage is corrected
MOR - Mail Order Return service
RPR - Returned commercial Packet service
SD -- Special Delivery
SU -- Surface mail overseas low cost
........("Delivery times can take from two weeks to Western Europe
........and as long as 12 weeks to Australia.")
BF -- Parcels to Armed Forces overseas.
PE ---Economy parcels to overseas destinations
PS -- Standard value parcels to overseas destination
SP -- Standard parcels (replaced by PE and PS )
RSF - Recorded Signed For mail
1SP - Small Parcel, less than 2kg
1MP - Medium Parcels
2SP - Parcel larger than an "SP" but still less that 2kg
2MP - Bigger than an "SP up to 20kg
BSP - Replaces small "BKP" to British Armed Forces
BMP - Replaces medium "BKP" to British Armed Forces
SD1 - Special Delivery by 1PM
SD9 - Special delivery by 9AM
IS --- International Service
IT --- International Service, Tracked
ITS -- International Service, Tracked and Signed for
It is important to note that some of these listings were provided to replace all or a segment of a previous service. The dates and usages are listed in the Deegam Complete Machin Handbook and comprise of some eighty-five pages, about twelve of overall explanations and the rest, lists of printings and dates of usages.
They were produced by at least two printers, De la Rue and Walsall, with different typefaces and two languages, English and Welsh. So collecting them all will be a daunting task for those who might choose to form a specialized collection. Also some are both imperforate as well as with large teethed die cut perforations.
Subsequently more additions splitting of issues, and cancellations may have occured.
Overseas recorded and tracking services are limited to "Safe Destinations" due to the poor safety record or unavailability of such tracking.
The number of destinations is currently 30. These are mainly in Europe (but not Italy or Norway) plus Brazil, Canada, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and USA.
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09:39:03pm
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
Thankyou Charlie for posting this info... I have a few of these but was not sure what the initials represented...THANKYOU
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re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
That's one heck of a twist to collecting Machins!
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this post
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
Just a couple of points;
The labels are supplied in sheets of two labels. Each sheet is the same size as a cheque (or check (USA)). The technology used to print the postage details is adopted from standard cheque printing equipment.
They are about to be replaced by a new style with the Queens head in the top right corner and the background printing gradually fading to clear (in the bottom left corner) to allow a clearer area for the postage details to be printed. I have not seen any examples to see if the printing will be different. There is an image of the new blank label here - http://blog.norphil.co.uk/2015/05/new-horizon-label-at-temporary-post.html
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re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
Here is an unused pair I got from a friend of mine in the UK.
Chimo
Bujutsu
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09:08:55am
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
Note that these are not available to the public in unused condition as shown above.
You hand your cash to the clerk, who prints the label.He/she attaches the label and puts the item in the bag behind the counter. As a customer you do not handle the label yourself (unprinted or printed). Unprinted labels are completely valueless.
While it is probably not strictly illegal to own such items, whoever allowed them out of the post office is almost certainly guilty of breaching procedures and liable to disciplinary action falling short of dismissal ( for an isolated incident). As they do not leave post office control there is no necessity to postmark these, so by definition a printed example is "used" - even if by happenstance it never sees an envelope or parcel.
Malcolm
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11:01:41am
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
Yes This info is correct... Glad to hear it confirmed by another member of Stamporama
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re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
What is the value of these labels?
Mike
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
31 May 2015
11:16:18pm
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
" .... What is the value of these labels? ...."
Well, of the very common service usages, not much. A friend in the UK sent me a small bag of them. And I sent a sample of one each to someone here, all gratis.
Some of the less commonly used services may eventually attract some collectors who want a full set which may cause them to command some premium. But, except for the discontinued service labels, all anyone in the UK needs to do is go to a post office and send himself a letter or parcel with one affixed since they are printed at the post counter.
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06:32:41am
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
If the issuing post office gets 25 of the 63 pence of the fee, Royal Mail only gets 38 pence to collect from the office, sort and deliver ( the most expensive portion of the process) the letter.This makes absolutely no sense - no wonder they don't make any money on letter delivery! Accountants strike again !
Malcolm
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this post
01:01:36pm
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
Ha!
The present Government ( and the EU) is anti cross-subsidisation in any form - therefore there is a default position that every part of every business should be profitable in it's own right ( which is where I was coming from in my original post - I didn't by the way say that I agreed with the premise ). Given this default position this makes the figures a nonsense- in effect the letter post is cross-subsidising PO Counters and their agencies to it's own financial disadvantage. Also bear in mind that the division of "the Post Office" into Post Office Counters, Royal Mail and Parcel Force was to facilitate the reduction of cross-subsidisation, therefore there is some double-thinking involved here.Also it is a fact that the ridiculous rates paid to the letterpost for delivering their competitors mail means that the likes of TNT and DHL are having their profits subsidised by the letter post delivery arm.
Methinks that the selling of lettermail stamps through every corner shop has led to such reduction of revenue for PO counters that this is a back-door way of bringing their revenue up artificially. Also bear in mind that many outlets with a post office agency are also selling stamps in their "normal" business in direct competition with their own post office agency.
I was brought up in the bus industry which was the epitome of cross-subsidisation( the companies used part of the profits from the busiest routes to spread the overheads to make the less profitable routes more viable. Political machinations brought about the end of cross-subsidisation,public ownership,and regulation of bus services based on public need rather than private profit. The result today- worse bus services, private instead of public monopoly (public monopoly was a myth anyway - the four largest private groups who by and large take care not to compete with each other directly now have a MUCH greater share of the traffic that the state owned National Bus Company ever did), the highest ever local government subsidisation of local services and fares out of the reach of most people who need the service most ( low-income people without access to a car).
The powers -that-be really need to get clear in their minds what they want, do it, and then if the results are not to their liking own-up to it and not try to "fudge the figures" so that they show some more acceptable result, but of course we are talking about government here. Unfortunately more and more politicians these days go straight from University to Political Life, and have never actually had a "proper job", and yet we trust them to make sensible decisions about "real life".
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
"The local Post Office gets paid 25pence( 38cents) for every Label it issues. If they put stamps on letters / parcels they are only paid 1pence!!!"
So this is why I get dirty looks every time I have a package weighed at my local post office! I always affix my own stamps, and find these labels unnecessarily large and obviously designed to usurp the proper use of postage stamps sooner rather than later. I dare say when the next monarch succeeds no further postage stamps will be issued, except to collectors at rare and barely accessible venues.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
21 Jun 2015
09:56:07am
re: Machin Gold Horizon Labels
" .... except to collectors at rare and barely accessible venues. ...."
Possibly only on moonless nights at midnight ???
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