Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
In a recent discussion, flowers came up and folks mentioned organizing them by their taxonomy, separating roses from daisies from orchids, etc.
If one stamp pictured several species, would you obtain a copy for each category? Just put it in one category (and how do you choose which one)? Have a separate category for stamps that fit in more than one category?
Chris
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For me it really does depend on the topic being collected. ... Some years ago I started a Mushrooms (on stamps) collection. I encountered several stamps that showed Mushrooms in the scene, but were not quite giving me what I wanted. I ended up saving only the stamps that had their Latin names printed somewhere on the stamp. Some stamps also showed if a mushroom was edible or poisonous, which was an added bonus. I was going for a field guide sort of collection. I gave it to my nephew, who enjoys mushroom hunting, whereas I don't even eat the buggars.
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The question highlights for me one of the weaknesses of topical collecting, namely its tendency towards meaninglessness. That does not, of course, mean that all topical collections are meaningless: the mushroom one mentioned above seems to me to have a perfectly acceptable rationale, that of a field guide to the subject. Rightly, the collector disregards as irrelevant stamps which depict a passing mushroom, while three or four cohabiting mushrooms are set apart as confusing. The problem arises when you see a page or an exhibit which insists on including every stamp remotely mushroom-based. The point of which is what?
Just occasionally, though, I think you have to buy two or more copies of the same stamp, as I have found when assembling my 'Engraved Stamps of the Soviet Union 1923-1970', 'Stamps of the Great Patriotic War' and 'Commemorating World War Two' collections. I'm not even sure if these qualify as 'topical', but they do occasionally require a note referring the reader to another album.
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ooooh, Ian, that judgement on topicals,
"its tendency towards meaninglessness"
What makes 2,500 posthorns any more meaningful than an equal number of fungii?
David
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Of course, I'll ultimately collect what I like, which may or may not be two or more copies of the same issue, but I was wondering what others do.
For the topic I'm considering, nearly every issue falls neatly into one of about six sub-categories. However I've come across a few (especially souvenir sheets) which fit in two, three, or even all six categories. I can't see buying six souvenir sheets so I can put one in each category, but if I'm going to go to the trouble of subcategorizing, then it seems pointless to have an 'other/multiple' category.
Maybe that's why most people just put them in order by country, alphabetically then by catalog number? That just doesn't seem as interesting to me.
Chris
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"'Engraved Stamps of the Soviet Union 1923-1970', 'Stamps of the Great Patriotic War' and 'Commemorating World War Two' collections. I'm not even sure if these qualify as 'topical'"
I see 'The Great Patriotic War' and 'World War II' as topical/thematic collections.
I see 'Engraved Stamps of the Soviet Union 1923-1970' as a Soviet Specialization, topical in a way of course, but I would not call it a topical collection. My take on topical collections is that at the most basic level they include stamps from multiple nations brought together by a collector seeking a common theme.
In my Airship collection I have drawn lines on what to exclude, but a person not collecting Dirigibles will not be aware of what is not present in the collection. An outsider will only see dirigibles of the past, the present, and the future. You might consider that to be too much and unfocused. My favorites are the rigids, but I feel the need to give props to the early designers and pioneers, and I would like to think that there is a future for Airship evolution as well.
As to the cross-over between topical collections- I currently do not have that problem. I did at one time, but I quit collecting Polar stamps. It was complicating my collection and I found it easier and more enjoyable to not collect in ways that cross-over as far as stamps go. Covers- that's a different story.
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"What makes 2,500 posthorns any more meaningful than an equal number of fungii?
"
It always surprises me that the topical arm of the hobby has not dealt with this argument long since. Perhaps it has.
Anyway, here goes. Your 2500 posthorns may well be a meaningful contribution, study or just illustrative list of a design chosen by the authorities of a given country for reasons which the collector will understand and explain. There would be little point (i.e. it is meaningless) to include in a collection of, say, Norwegian posthorns a stamp from somewhere else which happens to have a posthorn somewhere on it. Doubtless you could assemble a few British stamps with posthorns on them, but they would be meaningless in the context of the Norwegian stamps.
The same for fungi. There is presumably a reason for countries to issue stamps depicting fungi - probably because they are native to that country and thus have relevance. If that is the reason, then a collection of fungi stamps from one or more countries has some meaning. To include any old stamp which happens to feature fungi - and I mean you, Guyana or wherever, who issue irrelevant labels - renders the collection so much the less meaningful.
I'm afraid that to throw up your arms and plead that you will collect what you want is missing the point entirely. Of course you will, but (how to put this politely) so what?
One of the first lessons I learned, at the foot of authors like LN and M Williams, was that there were generally accepted limits to what a proper collection included. The sentence I am looking at*, as they dispense advice to the new collector, is "Form it in your own way while, of course, taking care not to transgress the general rules of philately." (My italics)
Doubtless these days the concept of 'general rules of philately' is considered outmoded and paternalistic. But I wonder what rules topical collectors have, or whether they want them. That is all.
* Williams, LN and M, The Postage Stamp: Its History and Recognition, Harmondsworth 1956, ch.27
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There are no rules. People collect what they want. That's the beauty of the hobby.
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What about ones like these? They purport to depict the very evolution you describe. Would they just be lumped in with the "past?"
Chris
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"What about ones like these? They purport to depict the very evolution you describe. Would they just be lumped in with the "past?""
My Airship collection is in a stock book. It is in alphabetical order by nation. I do collect them in past, present and future designs, but they are not organized in that order.
Yes, I have a set of the top stamp (Togo) in my collection. I would have the 2nd one shown as well, but I do not own a copy of that stamp. (yet
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Ian,
Are you speaking of a person's personal collecting choices or are you talking about public exhibits?
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That's a good question, Doe. There are rules about public exhibits, depending (I presume) on who you're exhibiting with, and if I'm not wrong many public exhibits have a special section where these rules may be broken.
Back to the Williamses, who were writing in the days when advice was given, usually by an avuncular and gentlemanly figure, about the parameters of a private collection, on the assumption that even if you never showed your albums to anyone you would adhere to a set of rational and generally agreed guidelines.
Those days are gone, I suppose.
So, I stick to my own parameters in my collections which, if you ever saw them, should be plain to see or easily explicable. The fact that no-one ever sees them is not relevant: the parameters provide a rationale and a discipline without which the whole thing would be a waste of time.
To those who say "there are no rules" I have to reply, "Yes there are: some handed down by custom and practice, some self-imposed. And it is when you impose your own rules that you give your collection a meaning."
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Ian, perhaps I misunderstood your "meaningless" comment earlier, as the subsequent
"And it is when you impose your own rules that you give your collection a meaning"
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Hi Everyone;
ernieinjax said:
"There are no rules. People collect what they want. That's the beauty of the hobby."
I have only one rule: There are no rules, and I can break them all whenever I like.
For most collectors, stamp collecting is about creativity, and so the only rule is to assemble
something you are proud of and share that with others, especially if it breaks their rules.
Just Partyin'....
TuskenRaider
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@David:
I think you have it about right. Essentially, it is the difference between a child's box of randomly-acquired stamps and a thoughtfully-mounted adult's collection.
It seems obvious to me; but I have wandered around many an exhibition display and thought "What on earth is the point of that page?" or "Why on earth have you included that stamp?"
Not being a member of a society I don't get to see other people's albums at all. Of course there are pages posted on SOR (and an album section), but (whisper it softly) the same questions have occasionally surfaced!
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Ian,
i am delighted that this conversation continued to the point where I understood what you were aiming for. Thank you for spending the extra energy.
I am always trying to refine my organization to make it more useful to me, so that I'll know right where to go for the cover or stamp in which I'm interested.
David
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Interesting. A completely different approach to the "problem" of overlapping themes... Being a huge puzzle fan, I enjoy finding stamps that fit more than one category. In fact, one of my "back burner" ideas is to create one or more topical sets modeled after the Games Magazine "Pic-Tac-Toe" puzzle.
In these puzzles, your challenge is to figure out what common theme each set of three pictures shares - across, up and down, and diagonally. For example, in the puzzle below, the center vertical group shares the common theme of "King."
Some of these can get quite hard. 
Unfortunately, I don't have the answer key to this one, sorry...
Stamp themes could include things like: number cancels; the color red; manly mustaches; wrong colored animals; imperforates (or pefins); odd shapes; occupied countries; values spelled out; visible moon, first name George; etc.; etc. ; etc.
If my day job would quit getting in the way, I could see creating some topical kinds of puzzles for the community on a periodic basis. Sort of like we have with the jigsaw-type puzzles in which we have to guess the stamp from small snippets of the image.
One neat thing about these kinds of collections is that each "topic" usually takes only one page, and an album could easily contain hundreds of puzzles!
-Steve
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I may have the answers (a few are tenuous, but acceptable, I think).
Chris
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@ Steve, interesting puzzle, my problem with these is that I never know what the hell things are meant to depict. In this case what is the item bottom right, a McFlurry?
Mind you I have the same problem with computer icons and corporate logos, one of which I never understand is the case IH dealership Logo. Whoever dreamed that one up deserves shooting.
Vic
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Bottom right is a greeting/birthday card depicting the cartoon character Spongebob Squarepants.
Chris
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@geostamper,
Ok, so vertical in the center is "kings" diagonal downward to the right is "sqaures" what's the rest?
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middle horizontal is WHITE
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@ David. Haha. The queen for white??? That's a hoot!
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I think I have them all except the right-hand vertical column and the diagonal that goes from lower left to upper right.
@Vic, that is my problem as well. In my case, I never saw "The Pope of Greenwich Village," so I don't know what the various cultural contexts are. For example, if that movie were about a game, then "game" might be the diagonal theme. Sometimes the theme is something superficial, such as the fact that the movie and the baseball card both have white frames. If the chess board had a white frame, then I might guess that. But David's solution for the middle horizontal row of "white," (or "black and white"), might argue against another color theme.
-Steve
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Sorry, middle horizontal is QUEEN, not WHITE.
Diagonal from lower left to upper right does not require knowledge of the movie's content.
Chris
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Chris
"White" makes much more sense for middle horizontal. How does Snow White relate to queen?
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The evil queen who gives Snow White the poison apple? She's staring right at you in the picture.
(White is an acceptible answer, I think, but it seemed obvious that kings went down the middle and queens went across the middle. I would think the puzzle designer had that in mind as they developed the puzzle.)
I think there can be multiple correct answers, though some of them are better than others. Perhaps Ian could take a lesson from this puzzle.
Chris
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Okay thanks to Chris' clue, I see the diagonal going up and to the right now: religious leaders (Cardinal, Bishop, Pope).
Still struggling with that right-hand vertical column, however.
-Steve
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I think right hand vertical is MOVIES.
What is the left hand vertical?
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Left hand vertical is PRESIDENTS.
I didn't think Spongebob made it to a movie, but of course it did.
Does that give us all of them?
Across, from top: NEW YORK, WHITE or QUEENS, CARDS
Vertical, from left: PRESIDENTS, KINGS, MOVIES
Diagonal down: SQUARES
Diagonal up: RELIGIOUS RANKS
To give an idea of the difficulty in creating these, when Games Magazine did the first one, they said: "Never again! It's too hard." Well, they have done a total of four or five, and they are quite popular.
Now can someone do that in stamps? 
-Steve
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"Cards" are a nickname for the Cardinals. That's what threw me!
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...and here's another question that relates back to the original one posted at the beginning of this thread;
"What do you do when a stamp falls into two of your categories?"
My question is this -
What do you do when one stamp covers two completely different topicals of yours?
I personally doubt I will ever have that problem, as I have never seen or heard of a stamp with baseball AND a cheetah on it together
Do you acquire 2 copies? One for each topical collection?
Randy
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If expense was not a consideration, I would definitely acquire two copies, especially if the collections were housed separately. If housed together, I might consider placing it alone on a page between the two collections, but probably not.
Chris
Careful what you wish for...
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LOL
Not a cheetah, but you had me worried for a second....
Randy
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What do you do when a stamp falls into two of your categories?
In a recent discussion, flowers came up and folks mentioned organizing them by their taxonomy, separating roses from daisies from orchids, etc.
If one stamp pictured several species, would you obtain a copy for each category? Just put it in one category (and how do you choose which one)? Have a separate category for stamps that fit in more than one category?
Chris
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re: topical overlap
For me it really does depend on the topic being collected. ... Some years ago I started a Mushrooms (on stamps) collection. I encountered several stamps that showed Mushrooms in the scene, but were not quite giving me what I wanted. I ended up saving only the stamps that had their Latin names printed somewhere on the stamp. Some stamps also showed if a mushroom was edible or poisonous, which was an added bonus. I was going for a field guide sort of collection. I gave it to my nephew, who enjoys mushroom hunting, whereas I don't even eat the buggars.
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re: topical overlap
The question highlights for me one of the weaknesses of topical collecting, namely its tendency towards meaninglessness. That does not, of course, mean that all topical collections are meaningless: the mushroom one mentioned above seems to me to have a perfectly acceptable rationale, that of a field guide to the subject. Rightly, the collector disregards as irrelevant stamps which depict a passing mushroom, while three or four cohabiting mushrooms are set apart as confusing. The problem arises when you see a page or an exhibit which insists on including every stamp remotely mushroom-based. The point of which is what?
Just occasionally, though, I think you have to buy two or more copies of the same stamp, as I have found when assembling my 'Engraved Stamps of the Soviet Union 1923-1970', 'Stamps of the Great Patriotic War' and 'Commemorating World War Two' collections. I'm not even sure if these qualify as 'topical', but they do occasionally require a note referring the reader to another album.
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Auctions
re: topical overlap
ooooh, Ian, that judgement on topicals,
"its tendency towards meaninglessness"
What makes 2,500 posthorns any more meaningful than an equal number of fungii?
David
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re: topical overlap
Of course, I'll ultimately collect what I like, which may or may not be two or more copies of the same issue, but I was wondering what others do.
For the topic I'm considering, nearly every issue falls neatly into one of about six sub-categories. However I've come across a few (especially souvenir sheets) which fit in two, three, or even all six categories. I can't see buying six souvenir sheets so I can put one in each category, but if I'm going to go to the trouble of subcategorizing, then it seems pointless to have an 'other/multiple' category.
Maybe that's why most people just put them in order by country, alphabetically then by catalog number? That just doesn't seem as interesting to me.
Chris
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re: topical overlap
"'Engraved Stamps of the Soviet Union 1923-1970', 'Stamps of the Great Patriotic War' and 'Commemorating World War Two' collections. I'm not even sure if these qualify as 'topical'"
I see 'The Great Patriotic War' and 'World War II' as topical/thematic collections.
I see 'Engraved Stamps of the Soviet Union 1923-1970' as a Soviet Specialization, topical in a way of course, but I would not call it a topical collection. My take on topical collections is that at the most basic level they include stamps from multiple nations brought together by a collector seeking a common theme.
In my Airship collection I have drawn lines on what to exclude, but a person not collecting Dirigibles will not be aware of what is not present in the collection. An outsider will only see dirigibles of the past, the present, and the future. You might consider that to be too much and unfocused. My favorites are the rigids, but I feel the need to give props to the early designers and pioneers, and I would like to think that there is a future for Airship evolution as well.
As to the cross-over between topical collections- I currently do not have that problem. I did at one time, but I quit collecting Polar stamps. It was complicating my collection and I found it easier and more enjoyable to not collect in ways that cross-over as far as stamps go. Covers- that's a different story.
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re: topical overlap
"What makes 2,500 posthorns any more meaningful than an equal number of fungii?
"
It always surprises me that the topical arm of the hobby has not dealt with this argument long since. Perhaps it has.
Anyway, here goes. Your 2500 posthorns may well be a meaningful contribution, study or just illustrative list of a design chosen by the authorities of a given country for reasons which the collector will understand and explain. There would be little point (i.e. it is meaningless) to include in a collection of, say, Norwegian posthorns a stamp from somewhere else which happens to have a posthorn somewhere on it. Doubtless you could assemble a few British stamps with posthorns on them, but they would be meaningless in the context of the Norwegian stamps.
The same for fungi. There is presumably a reason for countries to issue stamps depicting fungi - probably because they are native to that country and thus have relevance. If that is the reason, then a collection of fungi stamps from one or more countries has some meaning. To include any old stamp which happens to feature fungi - and I mean you, Guyana or wherever, who issue irrelevant labels - renders the collection so much the less meaningful.
I'm afraid that to throw up your arms and plead that you will collect what you want is missing the point entirely. Of course you will, but (how to put this politely) so what?
One of the first lessons I learned, at the foot of authors like LN and M Williams, was that there were generally accepted limits to what a proper collection included. The sentence I am looking at*, as they dispense advice to the new collector, is "Form it in your own way while, of course, taking care not to transgress the general rules of philately." (My italics)
Doubtless these days the concept of 'general rules of philately' is considered outmoded and paternalistic. But I wonder what rules topical collectors have, or whether they want them. That is all.
* Williams, LN and M, The Postage Stamp: Its History and Recognition, Harmondsworth 1956, ch.27
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re: topical overlap
There are no rules. People collect what they want. That's the beauty of the hobby.
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re: topical overlap
What about ones like these? They purport to depict the very evolution you describe. Would they just be lumped in with the "past?"
Chris
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re: topical overlap
"What about ones like these? They purport to depict the very evolution you describe. Would they just be lumped in with the "past?""
My Airship collection is in a stock book. It is in alphabetical order by nation. I do collect them in past, present and future designs, but they are not organized in that order.
Yes, I have a set of the top stamp (Togo) in my collection. I would have the 2nd one shown as well, but I do not own a copy of that stamp. (yet
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re: topical overlap
Ian,
Are you speaking of a person's personal collecting choices or are you talking about public exhibits?
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re: topical overlap
That's a good question, Doe. There are rules about public exhibits, depending (I presume) on who you're exhibiting with, and if I'm not wrong many public exhibits have a special section where these rules may be broken.
Back to the Williamses, who were writing in the days when advice was given, usually by an avuncular and gentlemanly figure, about the parameters of a private collection, on the assumption that even if you never showed your albums to anyone you would adhere to a set of rational and generally agreed guidelines.
Those days are gone, I suppose.
So, I stick to my own parameters in my collections which, if you ever saw them, should be plain to see or easily explicable. The fact that no-one ever sees them is not relevant: the parameters provide a rationale and a discipline without which the whole thing would be a waste of time.
To those who say "there are no rules" I have to reply, "Yes there are: some handed down by custom and practice, some self-imposed. And it is when you impose your own rules that you give your collection a meaning."
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Auctions
re: topical overlap
Ian, perhaps I misunderstood your "meaningless" comment earlier, as the subsequent
"And it is when you impose your own rules that you give your collection a meaning"
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re: topical overlap
Hi Everyone;
ernieinjax said:
"There are no rules. People collect what they want. That's the beauty of the hobby."
I have only one rule: There are no rules, and I can break them all whenever I like.
For most collectors, stamp collecting is about creativity, and so the only rule is to assemble
something you are proud of and share that with others, especially if it breaks their rules.
Just Partyin'....
TuskenRaider
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re: topical overlap
@David:
I think you have it about right. Essentially, it is the difference between a child's box of randomly-acquired stamps and a thoughtfully-mounted adult's collection.
It seems obvious to me; but I have wandered around many an exhibition display and thought "What on earth is the point of that page?" or "Why on earth have you included that stamp?"
Not being a member of a society I don't get to see other people's albums at all. Of course there are pages posted on SOR (and an album section), but (whisper it softly) the same questions have occasionally surfaced!
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Auctions
re: topical overlap
Ian,
i am delighted that this conversation continued to the point where I understood what you were aiming for. Thank you for spending the extra energy.
I am always trying to refine my organization to make it more useful to me, so that I'll know right where to go for the cover or stamp in which I'm interested.
David
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re: topical overlap
Interesting. A completely different approach to the "problem" of overlapping themes... Being a huge puzzle fan, I enjoy finding stamps that fit more than one category. In fact, one of my "back burner" ideas is to create one or more topical sets modeled after the Games Magazine "Pic-Tac-Toe" puzzle.
In these puzzles, your challenge is to figure out what common theme each set of three pictures shares - across, up and down, and diagonally. For example, in the puzzle below, the center vertical group shares the common theme of "King."
Some of these can get quite hard. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer key to this one, sorry...
Stamp themes could include things like: number cancels; the color red; manly mustaches; wrong colored animals; imperforates (or pefins); odd shapes; occupied countries; values spelled out; visible moon, first name George; etc.; etc. ; etc.
If my day job would quit getting in the way, I could see creating some topical kinds of puzzles for the community on a periodic basis. Sort of like we have with the jigsaw-type puzzles in which we have to guess the stamp from small snippets of the image.
One neat thing about these kinds of collections is that each "topic" usually takes only one page, and an album could easily contain hundreds of puzzles!
-Steve
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re: topical overlap
I may have the answers (a few are tenuous, but acceptable, I think).
Chris
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re: topical overlap
@ Steve, interesting puzzle, my problem with these is that I never know what the hell things are meant to depict. In this case what is the item bottom right, a McFlurry?
Mind you I have the same problem with computer icons and corporate logos, one of which I never understand is the case IH dealership Logo. Whoever dreamed that one up deserves shooting.
Vic
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re: topical overlap
Bottom right is a greeting/birthday card depicting the cartoon character Spongebob Squarepants.
Chris
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re: topical overlap
@geostamper,
Ok, so vertical in the center is "kings" diagonal downward to the right is "sqaures" what's the rest?
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Auctions
re: topical overlap
middle horizontal is WHITE
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re: topical overlap
@ David. Haha. The queen for white??? That's a hoot!
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re: topical overlap
I think I have them all except the right-hand vertical column and the diagonal that goes from lower left to upper right.
@Vic, that is my problem as well. In my case, I never saw "The Pope of Greenwich Village," so I don't know what the various cultural contexts are. For example, if that movie were about a game, then "game" might be the diagonal theme. Sometimes the theme is something superficial, such as the fact that the movie and the baseball card both have white frames. If the chess board had a white frame, then I might guess that. But David's solution for the middle horizontal row of "white," (or "black and white"), might argue against another color theme.
-Steve
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re: topical overlap
Sorry, middle horizontal is QUEEN, not WHITE.
Diagonal from lower left to upper right does not require knowledge of the movie's content.
Chris
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re: topical overlap
Chris
"White" makes much more sense for middle horizontal. How does Snow White relate to queen?
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re: topical overlap
The evil queen who gives Snow White the poison apple? She's staring right at you in the picture.
(White is an acceptible answer, I think, but it seemed obvious that kings went down the middle and queens went across the middle. I would think the puzzle designer had that in mind as they developed the puzzle.)
I think there can be multiple correct answers, though some of them are better than others. Perhaps Ian could take a lesson from this puzzle.
Chris
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re: topical overlap
Okay thanks to Chris' clue, I see the diagonal going up and to the right now: religious leaders (Cardinal, Bishop, Pope).
Still struggling with that right-hand vertical column, however.
-Steve
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Auctions - Approvals
re: topical overlap
Bottom horizontal is CARDS.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: topical overlap
Top horizontal is NEW YORK.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: topical overlap
I think right hand vertical is MOVIES.
What is the left hand vertical?
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re: topical overlap
Left hand vertical is PRESIDENTS.
I didn't think Spongebob made it to a movie, but of course it did.
Does that give us all of them?
Across, from top: NEW YORK, WHITE or QUEENS, CARDS
Vertical, from left: PRESIDENTS, KINGS, MOVIES
Diagonal down: SQUARES
Diagonal up: RELIGIOUS RANKS
To give an idea of the difficulty in creating these, when Games Magazine did the first one, they said: "Never again! It's too hard." Well, they have done a total of four or five, and they are quite popular.
Now can someone do that in stamps?
-Steve
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re: topical overlap
"Cards" are a nickname for the Cardinals. That's what threw me!
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re: topical overlap
...and here's another question that relates back to the original one posted at the beginning of this thread;
"What do you do when a stamp falls into two of your categories?"
My question is this -
What do you do when one stamp covers two completely different topicals of yours?
I personally doubt I will ever have that problem, as I have never seen or heard of a stamp with baseball AND a cheetah on it together
Do you acquire 2 copies? One for each topical collection?
Randy
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re: topical overlap
If expense was not a consideration, I would definitely acquire two copies, especially if the collections were housed separately. If housed together, I might consider placing it alone on a page between the two collections, but probably not.
Chris
Careful what you wish for...
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re: topical overlap
LOL
Not a cheetah, but you had me worried for a second....
Randy
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