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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Has to be a joke......

 

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seanpashby
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27 Jun 2015
04:24:30pm
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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

27 Jun 2015
04:52:36pm
re: Has to be a joke......

"Has to be a joke......"


...or a monumental scam!

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

27 Jun 2015
06:42:34pm
re: Has to be a joke......

Same seller also has this listing:

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ernieinjax
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27 Jun 2015
06:42:41pm
re: Has to be a joke......

The seller has 227 transactions with 100% rating... I just bid about 10 times... I bid it up to $78 dollars and was still out bid... WHAT A JOKE.... I wonder what the high bid is right now?Rolling On The Floor Laughing

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copy55555
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27 Jun 2015
11:20:29pm
re: Has to be a joke......

Ha ha ho ha ho ho ha ha ha!

Tad

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michael78651
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27 Jun 2015
11:25:29pm
re: Has to be a joke......

Ernie, your $78.00 bid is the high bid. Looks like the higher bid was retracted.

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michael78651
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27 Jun 2015
11:27:53pm
re: Has to be a joke......

I reported the two C3a lots. The message I got when reporting them was that the items were being sold on the account without the owner's permission. Could be a hacked account.

I looked at the last three feedbacks left for the seller. All three of the items had been removed.

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bobstew617
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28 Jun 2015
08:50:30am
re: Has to be a joke......

It's up to $510.00 now... Bidders have 5 and 2 feedbacks, respectively.

Ernie, I was thinking the same as Michael regarding the higher bid being retracted. BOB

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BobbyBarnhart
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

28 Jun 2015
09:39:28am
re: Has to be a joke......

If the "seller" hijacked the ebay account, he certainly has the capability to get around ebay's anti-shilling safeguards. I do not doubt that the bidding is being manipulated somehow.

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

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cocollectibles

28 Jun 2015
10:22:51am
re: Has to be a joke......

What's the worst thing that can happen if someone put a huge bid on this item just to win it, then didn't pay? It takes scam items like this off the market, and prevents the seller from benefiting. The only consequence I see is that the "buyer" will be dinged by eBay and possibly suspended, but so what if they set up a "dummy" new ID to purchase it.

I'm not advocating anyone DO this of course, and I'm not about to try it. Just wondering "out loud" as it were.

Peter

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"TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO FORGIVE, CANINE."
ernieinjax
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28 Jun 2015
11:41:18am
re: Has to be a joke......

Well hey, that's my moment of philatelic greatness. I was high bidder on an upside-down Jenny! I was going to get Guthrum to cruise on down through the Chunnel to pick it up for me.


Really and truly, I'm asking myself what in the world would anyone have to gain by such an obviously fraudulent eBay offering. Let's be honest, is there really ANYONE on the face of this planet that would send, wire or transfer funds for this auction listing???


 


-Ernie

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

28 Jun 2015
11:46:54am
re: Has to be a joke......

... another reason I no longer bid on eBay.

David

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michael78651
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28 Jun 2015
02:18:13pm
re: Has to be a joke......

Peter, eBay will be able to ID dummy accounts that are made through the same IP Address, and all accounts for that IP Address will be suspended. You would have to use a library or free WIFI area (if those aren't already blocked by eBay) to create the dummy account.

You are right, however, that eBay will suspend a buyer's account if the buyer doesn't pay. EBay told me several months ago that a buyer must pay for items won/purchased regardless. The buyer, after paying can file a complaint against the seller after receiving an item "not as described" or non-receipt of the item.

The buyer will get the money back, but the thief seller probably has already run off with the money, closed all accounts listed in the seller's profile, and eBay won't be able to get it back from the thief. So, it doesn't hurt the thief any.

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Guthrum
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28 Jun 2015
06:18:25pm
re: Has to be a joke......

Well, Bernolsheim turns out to be a tiny hamlet in Alsace with a population at the last census of 609. Its coat-of-arms is a two-fingered salute by a gauntleted hand (sadly the fingers aren't parted - that would have been too good to be true!) Alas, Guthrum regrets he is unable to cruise on down through the Chunnel, as he is too busy attempting to use Microsoft Paint to fashion an inverted Jenny of his own. (Sadly he has no Jenny to start with, but that is scant deterrent these days.)

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nl1947

30 Jun 2015
11:52:06am
re: Has to be a joke......

I sent a notice to both certification services whose certs. are being used since eBay has no interest in these matters.
Both wrote back essentially saying ".. too bad for the bidders"

The "seller" is also offering some very valuable confederate currency with certificates and PCGS was very upset, interested & thankful.

So I guess it's OK to offer my Jenny for sale with any certificate you need.
To dispense with low start bids - opening bid is $500

Image Not Found






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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

30 Jun 2015
01:37:45pm

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re: Has to be a joke......

I have a question...
I've never had a stamp certified and have never even seen the certification papers, etc except on eBay.

What is the process? And what do you wind up with? Is the stamp photographed on the papers and returned loose, or do you get it back encased like a certified baseball card?

Back when I was younger, I had no worries about fakes and fraud, since I lived in an ideal world... never mind that I didn't have any stamps worth faking.

But today with my eyes open a bit wider, I may want an expert opinion on some of my Franklins... booklet panes, private perforations and such.

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nl1947

30 Jun 2015
02:53:45pm
re: Has to be a joke......

This is a fee schedule from PSE
You can choose grading & encapsulation as extras
By the time your done with insurance, freight both ways & certification, probably $50-$100

Image Not Found

APS members can get a lower rate from APEX
Generally if the stamp is deemed a fake, there is still a minimum fee.

They aren't perfect. I have seen some certified as reprints or remainders that were actually good forgeries.

Maybe as a start getting a $5 opinion from B.Weiss would be better.

Edited based on Anglophile comment:
There are stories of stamps coming back damaged. So an excellent scan front & back is more than just for loss.






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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

30 Jun 2015
04:52:08pm

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re: Has to be a joke......

Thank you for the information. I see PSE calls out private perforations, and that's pretty much what my expensive items are. I wasn't worried at first, but folks here pointed out that some forgers forged cheap stuff just for fun or practice. The stuff I value most would have been cheap stuff back in the day!

"There are expertizers, and then there are expertizers."



And my worries with private perfs! I bumped into someone offering on eBay what was described as a fake Scott 318 pair. I contacted them and advised them that the stamps indeed were a pair of 314 with the uncatalogued Covel private perforations. So they weren't fake, just not identified correctly by the appraiser. There are enough of these around and the story is pretty well known. I have probably 5 examples of these, including a cover mailed by Covel with a Herman Herst authentication on the back. My first copy was indeed bought by me at an auction back in the late 1970s as a fake 318!

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Stampme

30 Jun 2015
07:10:32pm
re: Has to be a joke......

I was almost surprised to read that both certification services whose services were falsely claimed would not be looking into the counterfeit? usage of their certificates.

One would think that they would aggressively go after anyone that falsely used their certificates otherwise all of their certificates are called into question.

(Shakes head, returns to regular broadcasting...)

Bruce

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nl1947

30 Jun 2015
07:47:01pm
re: Has to be a joke......

I questioned one of them on the reply and was told that in their opinion eBay does not care.
They also mentioned this is not an isolated case.

I do not necessarily accept this.
eBay will not act on you or I stating they are fakes (tried it before) as we are not "qualified"
However if a recognized certification body was to complain & demand the removal, I believe they would act.

I am not sure which party actually does not care.

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

30 Jun 2015
11:19:19pm

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re: Has to be a joke......

"However if a recognized certification body was to complain & demand the removal, I believe they would act."



There has to be a parallel example in the eBay world. For instance isn't PSE the company that rates sports cards? A hobby that is riddled with fraud and fakes.

I'll bet that the groups could register under the eBay VERO program, the program Tiffany, Coach and all the name brands frequently counter-fitted fall under. They speak, eBay removes the auction. This should work pretty much the same way. Only it involves the work of policing the auctions!

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londonbus1
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01 Jul 2015
03:30:08am
re: Has to be a joke......

I guess it's a conspiracy. They are all in it. Maybe I will just go and bid a million dollars just to stop some poor sod from being conned. then the process will start all over again and I will get banned from ebay for not paying for the item !! Angry

The 'Internet police' have also been informed and have done nothing !! this is all over the Internet, including facebook, and nothing can be done to stop the sale. Amazing.

Off to rob a bank. Thumbs Up

Londonbus1

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londonbus1
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01 Jul 2015
03:39:01am
re: Has to be a joke......

I see that one lot has been ended, won by the shill bidder !! Crying

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GeoStamper
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Steve

01 Jul 2015
06:53:49pm
re: Has to be a joke......

There is indeed something odd with that "seller." If you search completed auctions, any from France that look similar lead to dead links. The one exception is probably the auction mentioned by Londonbus1, that said, "This listing was ended by the seller because the item was sold.' (Is that a shill sale?)

Then there is this completed auction:

Image Not Found

Dead link as well.

Finally there is another "active" auction, this one with more than 6 days left and already 12 bids. Five of the bids I assume are from the shill, but not the current high bid of $15,000.

Image Not Found

If anyone really had stamps of that quality, would they really sell them on eBay with a cheaply worded listing? And a listing that even describes the seller's actions as "money laundering"? Surprise

Yes money laundering:

"I no longer accept paypal because in France a matter of money laundering in your account is limited as an individual, and I reach that limit."



Maybe something is lost in translation...

-Steve

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

04 Jul 2015
01:49:45am
re: Has to be a joke......

I suppose that someone who has come into possession of a large amount of folding cash from a nefarious source, could offer a bogus item for sale and using a shill bidder create an apparent legitimate payment to "Legitimize" the funds. At least it should pass a cursory investigation.

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michael78651
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04 Jul 2015
08:54:15am
re: Has to be a joke......

An interesting premise.

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seanpashby

27 Jun 2015
04:24:30pm

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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
27 Jun 2015
04:52:36pm

re: Has to be a joke......

"Has to be a joke......"


...or a monumental scam!

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...

They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
27 Jun 2015
06:42:34pm

re: Has to be a joke......

Same seller also has this listing:

Image Not Found

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
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ernieinjax

27 Jun 2015
06:42:41pm

re: Has to be a joke......

The seller has 227 transactions with 100% rating... I just bid about 10 times... I bid it up to $78 dollars and was still out bid... WHAT A JOKE.... I wonder what the high bid is right now?Rolling On The Floor Laughing

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copy55555

27 Jun 2015
11:20:29pm

re: Has to be a joke......

Ha ha ho ha ho ho ha ha ha!

Tad

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michael78651

27 Jun 2015
11:25:29pm

re: Has to be a joke......

Ernie, your $78.00 bid is the high bid. Looks like the higher bid was retracted.

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michael78651

27 Jun 2015
11:27:53pm

re: Has to be a joke......

I reported the two C3a lots. The message I got when reporting them was that the items were being sold on the account without the owner's permission. Could be a hacked account.

I looked at the last three feedbacks left for the seller. All three of the items had been removed.

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bobstew617

28 Jun 2015
08:50:30am

re: Has to be a joke......

It's up to $510.00 now... Bidders have 5 and 2 feedbacks, respectively.

Ernie, I was thinking the same as Michael regarding the higher bid being retracted. BOB

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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
28 Jun 2015
09:39:28am

re: Has to be a joke......

If the "seller" hijacked the ebay account, he certainly has the capability to get around ebay's anti-shilling safeguards. I do not doubt that the bidding is being manipulated somehow.

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke"

www.bobbybarnhart.ne ...
cocollectibles

28 Jun 2015
10:22:51am

re: Has to be a joke......

What's the worst thing that can happen if someone put a huge bid on this item just to win it, then didn't pay? It takes scam items like this off the market, and prevents the seller from benefiting. The only consequence I see is that the "buyer" will be dinged by eBay and possibly suspended, but so what if they set up a "dummy" new ID to purchase it.

I'm not advocating anyone DO this of course, and I'm not about to try it. Just wondering "out loud" as it were.

Peter

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"TO ERR IS HUMAN; TO FORGIVE, CANINE."
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ernieinjax

28 Jun 2015
11:41:18am

re: Has to be a joke......

Well hey, that's my moment of philatelic greatness. I was high bidder on an upside-down Jenny! I was going to get Guthrum to cruise on down through the Chunnel to pick it up for me.


Really and truly, I'm asking myself what in the world would anyone have to gain by such an obviously fraudulent eBay offering. Let's be honest, is there really ANYONE on the face of this planet that would send, wire or transfer funds for this auction listing???


 


-Ernie

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
28 Jun 2015
11:46:54am

re: Has to be a joke......

... another reason I no longer bid on eBay.

David

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michael78651

28 Jun 2015
02:18:13pm

re: Has to be a joke......

Peter, eBay will be able to ID dummy accounts that are made through the same IP Address, and all accounts for that IP Address will be suspended. You would have to use a library or free WIFI area (if those aren't already blocked by eBay) to create the dummy account.

You are right, however, that eBay will suspend a buyer's account if the buyer doesn't pay. EBay told me several months ago that a buyer must pay for items won/purchased regardless. The buyer, after paying can file a complaint against the seller after receiving an item "not as described" or non-receipt of the item.

The buyer will get the money back, but the thief seller probably has already run off with the money, closed all accounts listed in the seller's profile, and eBay won't be able to get it back from the thief. So, it doesn't hurt the thief any.

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Guthrum

28 Jun 2015
06:18:25pm

re: Has to be a joke......

Well, Bernolsheim turns out to be a tiny hamlet in Alsace with a population at the last census of 609. Its coat-of-arms is a two-fingered salute by a gauntleted hand (sadly the fingers aren't parted - that would have been too good to be true!) Alas, Guthrum regrets he is unable to cruise on down through the Chunnel, as he is too busy attempting to use Microsoft Paint to fashion an inverted Jenny of his own. (Sadly he has no Jenny to start with, but that is scant deterrent these days.)

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nl1947

30 Jun 2015
11:52:06am

re: Has to be a joke......

I sent a notice to both certification services whose certs. are being used since eBay has no interest in these matters.
Both wrote back essentially saying ".. too bad for the bidders"

The "seller" is also offering some very valuable confederate currency with certificates and PCGS was very upset, interested & thankful.

So I guess it's OK to offer my Jenny for sale with any certificate you need.
To dispense with low start bids - opening bid is $500

Image Not Found






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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
30 Jun 2015
01:37:45pm

Approvals

re: Has to be a joke......

I have a question...
I've never had a stamp certified and have never even seen the certification papers, etc except on eBay.

What is the process? And what do you wind up with? Is the stamp photographed on the papers and returned loose, or do you get it back encased like a certified baseball card?

Back when I was younger, I had no worries about fakes and fraud, since I lived in an ideal world... never mind that I didn't have any stamps worth faking.

But today with my eyes open a bit wider, I may want an expert opinion on some of my Franklins... booklet panes, private perforations and such.

Like
Login to Like
this post
nl1947

30 Jun 2015
02:53:45pm

re: Has to be a joke......

This is a fee schedule from PSE
You can choose grading & encapsulation as extras
By the time your done with insurance, freight both ways & certification, probably $50-$100

Image Not Found

APS members can get a lower rate from APEX
Generally if the stamp is deemed a fake, there is still a minimum fee.

They aren't perfect. I have seen some certified as reprints or remainders that were actually good forgeries.

Maybe as a start getting a $5 opinion from B.Weiss would be better.

Edited based on Anglophile comment:
There are stories of stamps coming back damaged. So an excellent scan front & back is more than just for loss.






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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
30 Jun 2015
04:52:08pm

Approvals

re: Has to be a joke......

Thank you for the information. I see PSE calls out private perforations, and that's pretty much what my expensive items are. I wasn't worried at first, but folks here pointed out that some forgers forged cheap stuff just for fun or practice. The stuff I value most would have been cheap stuff back in the day!

"There are expertizers, and then there are expertizers."



And my worries with private perfs! I bumped into someone offering on eBay what was described as a fake Scott 318 pair. I contacted them and advised them that the stamps indeed were a pair of 314 with the uncatalogued Covel private perforations. So they weren't fake, just not identified correctly by the appraiser. There are enough of these around and the story is pretty well known. I have probably 5 examples of these, including a cover mailed by Covel with a Herman Herst authentication on the back. My first copy was indeed bought by me at an auction back in the late 1970s as a fake 318!

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Stampme

30 Jun 2015
07:10:32pm

re: Has to be a joke......

I was almost surprised to read that both certification services whose services were falsely claimed would not be looking into the counterfeit? usage of their certificates.

One would think that they would aggressively go after anyone that falsely used their certificates otherwise all of their certificates are called into question.

(Shakes head, returns to regular broadcasting...)

Bruce

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nl1947

30 Jun 2015
07:47:01pm

re: Has to be a joke......

I questioned one of them on the reply and was told that in their opinion eBay does not care.
They also mentioned this is not an isolated case.

I do not necessarily accept this.
eBay will not act on you or I stating they are fakes (tried it before) as we are not "qualified"
However if a recognized certification body was to complain & demand the removal, I believe they would act.

I am not sure which party actually does not care.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
30 Jun 2015
11:19:19pm

Approvals

re: Has to be a joke......

"However if a recognized certification body was to complain & demand the removal, I believe they would act."



There has to be a parallel example in the eBay world. For instance isn't PSE the company that rates sports cards? A hobby that is riddled with fraud and fakes.

I'll bet that the groups could register under the eBay VERO program, the program Tiffany, Coach and all the name brands frequently counter-fitted fall under. They speak, eBay removes the auction. This should work pretty much the same way. Only it involves the work of policing the auctions!

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londonbus1

01 Jul 2015
03:30:08am

re: Has to be a joke......

I guess it's a conspiracy. They are all in it. Maybe I will just go and bid a million dollars just to stop some poor sod from being conned. then the process will start all over again and I will get banned from ebay for not paying for the item !! Angry

The 'Internet police' have also been informed and have done nothing !! this is all over the Internet, including facebook, and nothing can be done to stop the sale. Amazing.

Off to rob a bank. Thumbs Up

Londonbus1

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londonbus1

01 Jul 2015
03:39:01am

re: Has to be a joke......

I see that one lot has been ended, won by the shill bidder !! Crying

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GeoStamper

Steve
01 Jul 2015
06:53:49pm

re: Has to be a joke......

There is indeed something odd with that "seller." If you search completed auctions, any from France that look similar lead to dead links. The one exception is probably the auction mentioned by Londonbus1, that said, "This listing was ended by the seller because the item was sold.' (Is that a shill sale?)

Then there is this completed auction:

Image Not Found

Dead link as well.

Finally there is another "active" auction, this one with more than 6 days left and already 12 bids. Five of the bids I assume are from the shill, but not the current high bid of $15,000.

Image Not Found

If anyone really had stamps of that quality, would they really sell them on eBay with a cheaply worded listing? And a listing that even describes the seller's actions as "money laundering"? Surprise

Yes money laundering:

"I no longer accept paypal because in France a matter of money laundering in your account is limited as an individual, and I reach that limit."



Maybe something is lost in translation...

-Steve

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"What are you waiting for? Those stamps aren't going to collect themselves."

Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
04 Jul 2015
01:49:45am

re: Has to be a joke......

I suppose that someone who has come into possession of a large amount of folding cash from a nefarious source, could offer a bogus item for sale and using a shill bidder create an apparent legitimate payment to "Legitimize" the funds. At least it should pass a cursory investigation.

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".... You may think you understood what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you think you heard is not what I thought I meant. .... "
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michael78651

04 Jul 2015
08:54:15am

re: Has to be a joke......

An interesting premise.

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