Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
....here we talk about Michel catalog number: 98-113 in used condition.
Full catalog value are 130.00 euro, so market value can be very affordable for serious collection, I think that 25-30% of Michel catalog value can be achieved with serious dealer.
best regards
Milco
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With just a cursory inspection it appears that the same postmark/cto/handstamp has been used on all the stamps. According to Wikipedia there were many forgeries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_Fiume
Maybe one of our experts can weigh in with a qualified verdict.
Vic
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Hi Everyone;
Yea the identical cancels, set off my red flag alarm too.
They almost have to be CTO or possible forgeries....
TuskenRaider
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Hi Milco,
this is a beautiful set and I agree entirely that Fiume makes for an interesting collecting area "off the beaten path." I do not collect this country; the existence of abundant forgeries of almost all stamps, expensive and inexpensive alike, is a definite turn-off.
Varo Tyler, in the revised and expanded edition of Focus on Forgeries, discusses a couple of the forgeries of the pictorial sets, including the one you are showing. The real plague of course are the overprint forgeries of the first issues and throughout. Serrane, in his 1926 Stamp Forgeries of the World, warns "the average collector to abstain, because professional specialization is need to cope" with the overprints. The tomb has some helpful information on forgeries, but not much past the 1919 (Michel #48) issues. More specialized literature certainly must exist for the stamps of this country.
If you check your Michel, you will see that the Gabriele d'Anunzio set was valid to January 31, 1921. The February 15, 1922 favor cancels on your set, after the issue was retired, certainly reduce the value. Of course, this is a matter of personal preference to some extent, but the used price of 130 EUR is for contemporaneous postally used stamps. I would think that 25% of used may be OK in that case. A genuine set should bring about catalog value, in my opinion.
The three low values have September 12, 1921 (= first day) cancels, if I make it out correctly. These look good. The differences between original and forgery for one of the forgeries of this set, illustrated by nl1947, are also described in Tyler. Carefully check the O and S in POSTALE in the top right corner. Unfortunately, Tyler notes that other forgeries than the one illustrated exist.
I feel a little bad about all of us raining on your parade. Like you said, it is a beautiful set and you are right that it really is worth having.
Arno
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....would 'favor-cancels' have been a possibility back in 1921?
Just curious.....
Randy
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Yes. Can be expected among many European areas, especially after a new authority is in place or conclusion of a war or armed struggle. Favor cancels, pre-dated cancels, and fake cancels exist. But as Rhinelander points out, some favor cancels still hold a fair premium even if not full premium -- depending on the stamp issue.
Be especially careful of issues (e.g., German) in which the "used" price (sometimes italicized in Scott) is significantly higher than the mint price.
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...thanks for comment and information, as I still LEARN, it help me understand this "problematic" period of Philately. So, I "put finger on my head" and think, what was "point" when someone decided to make fake/forgery of this sets? Just an profit? Money? Effort involved in making very good forgery, almost similar as original, hardly reward with this profit! Or, at the time, it was Philately market much bigger, and really make good profit?
Any way, here is another example from this country, this time Michel number 114-130 overprint, with one variety, partially canceled, and partially mint, as is, from full catalog value of 217.00 euro, I think, that market will show minimum 100.00 euro realized price (including postage and auction premium).
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Many countries back in the old days canceled stamps as remainders when they were no longer valid, and sold them to dealers. North Borneo is one such area. British area, even back to the Victoria stamps, sees plenty of CTO stamps as well. As KHJ said, the italics in the used column of the catalog are a good hint of CTOs as opposed to postally used. Special notes in the catalog also alert collectors.
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...so I will show last items which arrive today to this small collection, as I see in Michel, You will need to be real expert to see what and where to put in collection!
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FYI, the June 2013 issue of The American Philatelist has an article that shows examples of dozens of different confirmed counterfeit "FIUME" overprints. What I didn't like about the article is that they didn't show any confirmed genuine overprints.
There is a high probability that overprinted Hungarian stamps have counterfeit overprints.
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Are you saying that the images you provided are genuine examples?
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...recently come back from home in Yugoslavia with small collection of mint and used FIUME (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_of_Fiume), so to show one "worth to have" item from this field:
....here we talk about Michel catalog number: 98-113 in used condition.
Full catalog value are 130.00 euro, so market value can be very affordable for serious collection, I think that 25-30% of Michel catalog value can be achieved with serious dealer.
best regards
Milco
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: FIUME
With just a cursory inspection it appears that the same postmark/cto/handstamp has been used on all the stamps. According to Wikipedia there were many forgeries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_Fiume
Maybe one of our experts can weigh in with a qualified verdict.
Vic
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: FIUME
Hi Everyone;
Yea the identical cancels, set off my red flag alarm too.
They almost have to be CTO or possible forgeries....
TuskenRaider
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this post
re: FIUME
Hi Milco,
this is a beautiful set and I agree entirely that Fiume makes for an interesting collecting area "off the beaten path." I do not collect this country; the existence of abundant forgeries of almost all stamps, expensive and inexpensive alike, is a definite turn-off.
Varo Tyler, in the revised and expanded edition of Focus on Forgeries, discusses a couple of the forgeries of the pictorial sets, including the one you are showing. The real plague of course are the overprint forgeries of the first issues and throughout. Serrane, in his 1926 Stamp Forgeries of the World, warns "the average collector to abstain, because professional specialization is need to cope" with the overprints. The tomb has some helpful information on forgeries, but not much past the 1919 (Michel #48) issues. More specialized literature certainly must exist for the stamps of this country.
If you check your Michel, you will see that the Gabriele d'Anunzio set was valid to January 31, 1921. The February 15, 1922 favor cancels on your set, after the issue was retired, certainly reduce the value. Of course, this is a matter of personal preference to some extent, but the used price of 130 EUR is for contemporaneous postally used stamps. I would think that 25% of used may be OK in that case. A genuine set should bring about catalog value, in my opinion.
The three low values have September 12, 1921 (= first day) cancels, if I make it out correctly. These look good. The differences between original and forgery for one of the forgeries of this set, illustrated by nl1947, are also described in Tyler. Carefully check the O and S in POSTALE in the top right corner. Unfortunately, Tyler notes that other forgeries than the one illustrated exist.
I feel a little bad about all of us raining on your parade. Like you said, it is a beautiful set and you are right that it really is worth having.
Arno
Login to Like
this post
re: FIUME
....would 'favor-cancels' have been a possibility back in 1921?
Just curious.....
Randy
Login to Like
this post
re: FIUME
Yes. Can be expected among many European areas, especially after a new authority is in place or conclusion of a war or armed struggle. Favor cancels, pre-dated cancels, and fake cancels exist. But as Rhinelander points out, some favor cancels still hold a fair premium even if not full premium -- depending on the stamp issue.
Be especially careful of issues (e.g., German) in which the "used" price (sometimes italicized in Scott) is significantly higher than the mint price.
Login to Like
this post
re: FIUME
...thanks for comment and information, as I still LEARN, it help me understand this "problematic" period of Philately. So, I "put finger on my head" and think, what was "point" when someone decided to make fake/forgery of this sets? Just an profit? Money? Effort involved in making very good forgery, almost similar as original, hardly reward with this profit! Or, at the time, it was Philately market much bigger, and really make good profit?
Any way, here is another example from this country, this time Michel number 114-130 overprint, with one variety, partially canceled, and partially mint, as is, from full catalog value of 217.00 euro, I think, that market will show minimum 100.00 euro realized price (including postage and auction premium).
Login to Like
this post
re: FIUME
Many countries back in the old days canceled stamps as remainders when they were no longer valid, and sold them to dealers. North Borneo is one such area. British area, even back to the Victoria stamps, sees plenty of CTO stamps as well. As KHJ said, the italics in the used column of the catalog are a good hint of CTOs as opposed to postally used. Special notes in the catalog also alert collectors.
Login to Like
this post
re: FIUME
...so I will show last items which arrive today to this small collection, as I see in Michel, You will need to be real expert to see what and where to put in collection!
Login to Like
this post
re: FIUME
FYI, the June 2013 issue of The American Philatelist has an article that shows examples of dozens of different confirmed counterfeit "FIUME" overprints. What I didn't like about the article is that they didn't show any confirmed genuine overprints.
There is a high probability that overprinted Hungarian stamps have counterfeit overprints.
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this post
re: FIUME
Are you saying that the images you provided are genuine examples?
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