Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I ran into a problem trying to decipher the perforation annotations. It took me a while to figure out what a perforation 12:00 was, but I'm good with that. Now I'm trying to determine what a perforation 12T is. Here is the extract from the Green's listing for the 1931 Christmas Seal:
31-1B
.5) booklet pane of 10 (2×5), PM at top, perf 12, VBg 1.50
.6) as last, but error, double print of red
.7) booklet pane of 10 (2×5), PM at top, perf 12×12:00, VBg 1.50
.8) booklet pane of 10 (2×5), PM at top, perf 12T×12:00, VBg 12.00
.9) same as last, but perf 12T×12, VBg 12.00
I know that there are some very knowledgeable Christmas Seal collectors here, and I am hoping that they can tell me what a 12T perforation looks like for one of these booklet panes.
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12T means one of the pins has been removed, so that there are no overlapping perforations where the perforations cross. I believe this only occurred on some of the booklet panes for only a few years (1930? 1931?)
I'll see if I can pilfer a pic from somewhere.
k
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Can't find one that shows it clearly, sorry. You might want to try contacting William Kozersky through his website and see if he can email you an example.
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Thank you very much for the explanation. I think I can see that in my mind's eye. I'll contact the gentleman that you suggest. A picture would be really great.
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Kim is correct on both counts: the description of what and the two years it occurs in US Christmas seals. These are found only on Eureka booklet panes from 1930 and 31.
I'll see if I can get scans of the type with and without T
and as an avid collector of tied seals, welcome to my other little passion.
David
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Excellent, David! Looking forward to pilfering your scans.
k
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Great! My interest in Christmas seals comes from my main Ben Franklin collection. As they were first issued in 1907, I will include the 1907, 1908 and possibly the 1909 seal (the time period of my stamp!) on cover or postcard in this collection, as long as it's on a piece with a Scott 300 Ben Franklin stamp on it!
As you said, I'm looking for the seals to be tied to the cover with a postmark. I have seen some with the seal affixed in the lower corner, or the back of the envelope or card. My issue with this is that they could've been added there yesterday. And with the prices that some eBay vendors are asking for these covers, I wouldn't doubt some foolery!
But I know I will find tied seals on cover, at a reasonable price, sooner or later. I am a patient man!
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Oh, I forgot to add my question... I have maybe a dozen years worth of full sheets of Christmas seals, late 1950s through the 1960s. These came to me in a large hoard of covers I purchased a bunch of years ago. They were all in a folder, and all of the sheets had been folded. I believe these were sent to donors this way, folded to fit in a business size envelope? I'm hoping this is typical and my sheets wouldn't be considered damaged?
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Tom, you are right, most sheets were sent folded, to fit #10 or #6 envelopes, especially of that period. Folded is the usual way, and perf wear is a constant nemisis because of it.
tied 1907 seals (there were two issued that year) are less plentiful than most other seals through about 1947, after which seals get scarce in general. George Painter has been adding known tied seals to a census for the last decade; this doesn't represent the totality of seals, but those in the marketplace and in some collections. Tied 1908s are relatively plentiful; and tied 1909s are abundant.
There is a single example of a single PC with both the first and second 1907 seals; it was found by a seal collector; he sold it to a collector specializing in a stamp, and the seals were incidental to it. It's a great story; it's possible it will never be in a seal collection again.
David
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Yes, the panes were mailed folded to prospective donors.
(EDIT: David beat me to it, with a lot more information...)
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I asked John Denune, who is a wonderfully helpful and knowledgeable seal dealer, about this. He provided examples of the 1930 pane showcasing the differences between regular and T perfs.
I am planning to use this as the basis for an article for Seal News, so I'm delighted that the question was asked and that we have John as a resource.
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Please note that the p12T are only on the Eureka panes from 1930 and 1931, at least as far as I know. Eureka was one of the main, early printers for Christmas seals, and panes were among the available formats.
David
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Ah-ha....
The picture makes it all so clear! Thank you so very much for helping to explain that David. I will very much look forward to your article in the Seal News. There are, I believe, a great many annotations in the Green Seal catalog that will require clarification for me as I begin my journey into seal collecting. Pictures really are worth a thousand words.
Cheers,
Terry.
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Glad it helped, Terry. And thanks for asking.
We have been doing specialized primers on some of the more difficult differences, for instance on the types of 1921 and 1925 seals. You'll note that Green's and Scott approach them differently, and neither is particularly well illustrated. Seal News attempts to fix that.
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Excellent!
Thanks Terry, David, and John!
k
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So, David...
Are you saying that there is information in the Seal News that shows other differences in seal issues to help clarify the Green Seal catalog? If so, then I need to get started with a back issue collection of the Seal News as well. Is there an index of articles that might help me locate such tidbits of information? I've almost got some of my album pages prepared & I will post a couple of samples to SOR soon.
Thanks, Terry
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yes, Terry, SN does lots of that. Back issues are available on CD, which makes them very affordable.
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Hi All,
Am I to take it that a seal is something like a label but which is just a seal used for the back of the envelope?
The sort of thing like from charities which have small print with your name & address so you do not have to write it as "sender" on the back.
Funny enough I just brought some stamps from the states and on the back were these two sticky seals, geez they were sticky and I dont know where they got the envelope from because the gum on that alone was impregnable.
Again, I also take it these are "Cinderellas"?
I am on a mega learning curve here ha ha ha so forgive my ignorance.
Julian
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Julian,
If you can, please post a front and back scan of what you are describing!
Pictures are a great help here!
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Julian, in the states, a seal is a label issued by a charity organization with the intent to solicit funds directly for that seal.
What you describe sounds like a return label, also issued by the same, and other, organizations.
I've written a couple of articles about seals here, so they should be good to give you a sense.
David
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here's the article on USS Texas.... it's mostly about the battleship, but gives you a pix of the 1917 Christmas seal properly tied to a war-rate post card
https://stamporama.com/articles/display_article.php?id=RAAEy6qg1GAMY
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Okay, I have started a collection of Christmas Seals a few weeks ago. I joined the Christmas Seal and Charity Stamp Society and got a lot of good information. I purchased some of the CDs with the Green & Mosbaugh Seal catalogs, so that I could figure out what I've got & what I need. I'd like to get some of this stuff organized before the coming holiday season
I ran into a problem trying to decipher the perforation annotations. It took me a while to figure out what a perforation 12:00 was, but I'm good with that. Now I'm trying to determine what a perforation 12T is. Here is the extract from the Green's listing for the 1931 Christmas Seal:
31-1B
.5) booklet pane of 10 (2×5), PM at top, perf 12, VBg 1.50
.6) as last, but error, double print of red
.7) booklet pane of 10 (2×5), PM at top, perf 12×12:00, VBg 1.50
.8) booklet pane of 10 (2×5), PM at top, perf 12T×12:00, VBg 12.00
.9) same as last, but perf 12T×12, VBg 12.00
I know that there are some very knowledgeable Christmas Seal collectors here, and I am hoping that they can tell me what a 12T perforation looks like for one of these booklet panes.
Login to Like
this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
12T means one of the pins has been removed, so that there are no overlapping perforations where the perforations cross. I believe this only occurred on some of the booklet panes for only a few years (1930? 1931?)
I'll see if I can pilfer a pic from somewhere.
k
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likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Can't find one that shows it clearly, sorry. You might want to try contacting William Kozersky through his website and see if he can email you an example.
Login to Like
this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Thank you very much for the explanation. I think I can see that in my mind's eye. I'll contact the gentleman that you suggest. A picture would be really great.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Kim is correct on both counts: the description of what and the two years it occurs in US Christmas seals. These are found only on Eureka booklet panes from 1930 and 31.
I'll see if I can get scans of the type with and without T
and as an avid collector of tied seals, welcome to my other little passion.
David
Login to Like
this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Excellent, David! Looking forward to pilfering your scans.
k
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this post
Approvals
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Great! My interest in Christmas seals comes from my main Ben Franklin collection. As they were first issued in 1907, I will include the 1907, 1908 and possibly the 1909 seal (the time period of my stamp!) on cover or postcard in this collection, as long as it's on a piece with a Scott 300 Ben Franklin stamp on it!
As you said, I'm looking for the seals to be tied to the cover with a postmark. I have seen some with the seal affixed in the lower corner, or the back of the envelope or card. My issue with this is that they could've been added there yesterday. And with the prices that some eBay vendors are asking for these covers, I wouldn't doubt some foolery!
But I know I will find tied seals on cover, at a reasonable price, sooner or later. I am a patient man!
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Oh, I forgot to add my question... I have maybe a dozen years worth of full sheets of Christmas seals, late 1950s through the 1960s. These came to me in a large hoard of covers I purchased a bunch of years ago. They were all in a folder, and all of the sheets had been folded. I believe these were sent to donors this way, folded to fit in a business size envelope? I'm hoping this is typical and my sheets wouldn't be considered damaged?
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Tom, you are right, most sheets were sent folded, to fit #10 or #6 envelopes, especially of that period. Folded is the usual way, and perf wear is a constant nemisis because of it.
tied 1907 seals (there were two issued that year) are less plentiful than most other seals through about 1947, after which seals get scarce in general. George Painter has been adding known tied seals to a census for the last decade; this doesn't represent the totality of seals, but those in the marketplace and in some collections. Tied 1908s are relatively plentiful; and tied 1909s are abundant.
There is a single example of a single PC with both the first and second 1907 seals; it was found by a seal collector; he sold it to a collector specializing in a stamp, and the seals were incidental to it. It's a great story; it's possible it will never be in a seal collection again.
David
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this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Yes, the panes were mailed folded to prospective donors.
(EDIT: David beat me to it, with a lot more information...)
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
I asked John Denune, who is a wonderfully helpful and knowledgeable seal dealer, about this. He provided examples of the 1930 pane showcasing the differences between regular and T perfs.
I am planning to use this as the basis for an article for Seal News, so I'm delighted that the question was asked and that we have John as a resource.
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like this post.
Login to Like.
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Please note that the p12T are only on the Eureka panes from 1930 and 1931, at least as far as I know. Eureka was one of the main, early printers for Christmas seals, and panes were among the available formats.
David
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this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Ah-ha....
The picture makes it all so clear! Thank you so very much for helping to explain that David. I will very much look forward to your article in the Seal News. There are, I believe, a great many annotations in the Green Seal catalog that will require clarification for me as I begin my journey into seal collecting. Pictures really are worth a thousand words.
Cheers,
Terry.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Glad it helped, Terry. And thanks for asking.
We have been doing specialized primers on some of the more difficult differences, for instance on the types of 1921 and 1925 seals. You'll note that Green's and Scott approach them differently, and neither is particularly well illustrated. Seal News attempts to fix that.
Login to Like
this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Excellent!
Thanks Terry, David, and John!
k
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this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
So, David...
Are you saying that there is information in the Seal News that shows other differences in seal issues to help clarify the Green Seal catalog? If so, then I need to get started with a back issue collection of the Seal News as well. Is there an index of articles that might help me locate such tidbits of information? I've almost got some of my album pages prepared & I will post a couple of samples to SOR soon.
Thanks, Terry
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Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
yes, Terry, SN does lots of that. Back issues are available on CD, which makes them very affordable.
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04:52:04am
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Hi All,
Am I to take it that a seal is something like a label but which is just a seal used for the back of the envelope?
The sort of thing like from charities which have small print with your name & address so you do not have to write it as "sender" on the back.
Funny enough I just brought some stamps from the states and on the back were these two sticky seals, geez they were sticky and I dont know where they got the envelope from because the gum on that alone was impregnable.
Again, I also take it these are "Cinderellas"?
I am on a mega learning curve here ha ha ha so forgive my ignorance.
Julian
Login to Like
this post
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Julian,
If you can, please post a front and back scan of what you are describing!
Pictures are a great help here!
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
Julian, in the states, a seal is a label issued by a charity organization with the intent to solicit funds directly for that seal.
What you describe sounds like a return label, also issued by the same, and other, organizations.
I've written a couple of articles about seals here, so they should be good to give you a sense.
David
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: Green's Catalog of Seals
here's the article on USS Texas.... it's mostly about the battleship, but gives you a pix of the 1917 Christmas seal properly tied to a war-rate post card
https://stamporama.com/articles/display_article.php?id=RAAEy6qg1GAMY
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