Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I know the Wizard can perform MAGIC!
I love this site, keep up the good work.
Cheers
Lyall
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sorry Lyall, garbage in, garbage out, or what they post is what you get
it would be nice if sellers would use effective images, but a few fail to understand how scanners work. luckily, if the thumbnail is interesting enough, you'll be able to see it magnified in the auction listing itself.
we shouldn't make Tim work to compensate for others' illiteracy or disinterest
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06:38:10am
Unlike some of you, I frequently scan the images by eye for something that looks interesting or seems to be an item I've never seen before. It's a part of my anti-Alzheimer's effort. I know many use the search feature to find items from a carefully tabulated list, but that isn't me.
So a small sized or blurry scan, or a photo taken at an angle hat distorts the item, is like a listing described in Bengali, worthless to me and quickly passed over.
The sad thing is that I am sure that a certain few sellers never actually open the auction themselves, as a buyer might, and see how poorly their wares are displayed in comparison to others.
Another thing, I think that when I open a particular item the resulting scan ought to be a bit larger and clear.
As I approach 5,000 lots purchased (Possibly an average of 1½ to 2 stamps per lot.) any long term member who has never sold me a single stamp might want to consider why.
Now, obviously some may offer US MNH issues exclusively, or sheets of discount postage, but those who offer a wide range of used world wide items might just be one of the sellers whose listings I just scan past as fasr as my fingers can tap the "↓" key and should wonder why.
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Like the continuous relisting of unsold lots, which typically means relisting, over and over again, lots that remained unsold for a reason, the small image size is another of those issues that simply won't go away as much as we are trying not to do anything about it.
I see this problem again as an example of improper, inconsiderate use of our member auction.
Yes, one can take the commercial perspective -- images too small, lower sales, seller is only punishing himself, buyers just ignore.
Or one can say the seller is gobbling up club resources, taking away exposure of other sellers, and not following expected courtesy by forcing members to click on auction links that provide insufficient and hence waste-of-time-unbuyable items (over and over again) .
Our auction goes to great length to require proper description of items. Would it be fair to say that a sufficient image is the most important part of an informative description?
Needless to say those with the smallest images are also those with the least descriptive worded description, because the small images are just one other consequence of an "I don't care attitude." I do not buy into the "I am too computer-illiterate to make my images better"-argument. It is our decision to let the seller get away with it and this is why there is no incentive to improve. If you can't operate the hardware, you can't sell online. It is that easy.
I agree with David that it is not Tim's job to remedy and improve sales for lazy, inconsiderate sellers. But similar to our max. picture size limit, it should be easy to program a minimum picture size requirement. That should take care of it.
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10:59:32am
Unfortunately, although the selling platforms on Stamporama are intended to be an extension of club camaraderie, for a growing number of members it has become the sole reason for being here. If you are reading this message, you are not among that number because the folk of whom I speak do not read or participate in the discussion board or any of the other areas of the club - they are here solely to sell stuff. Personally, I think they are just a bunch of freeloaders and I do not bid on their items or buy their approvals. Stamporama was never intended to be a selling venue; the buying, selling and trading features here were meant to emulate those in a typical stamp club environment, not a stamp bourse.
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I have played around initially with the scanning and I found (and it was recommended) that I compress everything after scanning so it fits on a page without scrolling. I accomplish that by reducing the image by 1/3. My early books were quite awful due to the scrolling. I've stuck with the 150dpi 1/3 reduction since day one but I'll try some this week at 300dpi 1/3 reduction and see what happens. For auctions 300dpi should be fine as I don't reduce them. As an aside I did scan a whole card with 300dpi and by mistake forgot to reduce it and I was told my image was too big when I tried to upload it to a book.
Greg
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Greg, you are a recommended seller! And I've not had problems with your images.
I do not like side scrolling, but I'd rather have to do that, than try and look at tiny images.
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"for a growing number of members it has become the sole reason for being here. If you are reading this message, you are not among that number because the folk of whom I speak do not read or participate in the discussion board or any of the other areas of the club - they are here solely to sell stuff. Personally, I think they are just a bunch of freeloaders and I do not bid on their items or buy their approvals. "
Same as most hobbies. The model car websites don't allow selling, some don't even allow trading because of the type of people that all attracts. Often those who need to be on the winning end of every trade or deal. The one site that does allow trading is notorious for posts offering common recent stuff, and demanding old high value items in return.
Maybe the powers to be on the board could create some criteria for being allowed to post auctions or approval books. Maybe a minimum amount of posts or other participation in the community? Ten posts a month to maintain status? Thoughts?
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Not that I am agreeing OR disagreeing with what is being said, but;
I am a member of another website of a hobby of mine, and there if you do not post in the discussions on a "defined regular basis" you cannot enter any of their regular monthly contest giveaways.
Randy
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Recommended seller? Whoever did that thanks! The image issue is not unique. Other sites have reported the same thing, people putting up poor quality images. Where it seriously comes into play is when you have the magnification ability (check out Stanley Gibbons Marketplace) and then a low res image looks awful. My monitor is 1280x720 and they look OK, but to someone else they might not. Then too there is the issue of speed. I am a very poor test for that sort of thing because of my service. If a lot of high res images on a page cause a very slow download time, a person will surely be turned off by that. As I said I'll try the 300dpi 1/3 compression this week at least for the auctions. If I hear complaints then I'll know I did a bad thing and go back to the old way.
Greg
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Greg - I just looked at the scanned images shwoing in your auction listings and they look fine to me.
I am a poor one to judge the quality of someone else's images. My eyesight is so bad that what looks fuzzy to me, might in fact be very clear and sharp.
I scan single stamps at 300 dpi, reduce slightly and then sharpen. For large lots containing many stamps I scan at 200 dp, reduce by about 50% and then sharpen.
I 'assume' my scanned images are clear as I haven't had a complaint from anyone who has viewed them.
Liz
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I've never played with sharpening an image, so I just tried it. I use Paint Shop Pro (the poor mans Photoshop that does everything I need) and I saw no difference in the image. Then again my eyes are not all that great either!
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As an aside the only other forums I ever really participated in was Bidstart where I almost got the boot from the forums AND the site by recommending people come over to Stamporama. That was the last post I ever did in their forums
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Hi Everyone;
General non-specific rules do not always work as intended:
Rhinelander said:
"I agree with David that it is not Tim's job to remedy and improve sales for lazy,
inconsiderate sellers. But similar to our max. picture size limit, it should be easy
to program a minimum picture size requirement. That should take care of it."
Someone would interpret that rule to their own sloppy methods, and the result would be a stamp
barely 1:1 in size and surrounded by gobs of black space, to 'set off the stamp', with the result
that they only waste server space. The software for this would not know weather the image is a
stamp or just a lot of empty space. I've seen that a bunch of times!
STAMP Images should be 4x life size minimum by area. That means a 1" x 1" stamp would be 2" x 2"
and instead of one square inch in area, four square inches in area, regardless of the un-cropped
surround. The exception being sets of 5-10 stamps could be 50% bigger.
When I'm looking at listings, I use: Filter > Exclude > username, username, etc. > Refresh and get
rid of all the useless images. Then I can look at all the good ones.
Just like Charlie said:
"worthless to me and quickly passed over."
@ Greg;
Your images are a perfect example of very large in size, with minimum surround. I held a definitive
up to my screen against one of your Washington/Franklins. The top was over 3x the width of a
actual stamp, and over 3x as tall as the same stamp. Congrats Greg, some of the best I've seen
on here.
Just my 2¢ worth....
TuskenRaider
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"they are here solely to sell stuff "
"Maybe a minimum amount of posts or other participation in the community? Ten posts a month to maintain status? Thoughts? "
There are currently 243 cover lots listed in the auction. (I did not count the 3 stamps that were listed as covers.) Of those 243 lots, only 60 of them belong to members who have actually purchased an auction lot. Those that did make purchases here, in fact bought/won several lots. That leaves 183 of 243 cover lots being listed by dealers. If the dealers go, it would be slim pickins.
I have won lots from 4 of these dealers. One of them I will not be buying from again. It is doubtful I will buy from two of them again. But there is one I definitely would buy from again. I haven't searched the DB, but I'd be surprised if this person was not contributing to the discussions. He gives a good vibe anyway! lol
You really can't force someone to be friendly or socialize on DBs. I think if posts become mandatory for dealers, the DB will get a lot of useless posts. On the other hand, if they used the DB area to announce lots or something special they are listing etc... to the appropriate area of the DB a couple times a month, they'd be doing themselves a favor. It would help their sales and give them a personality.
Edit: I just searched the DB and the one I would buy from again is indeed active in the DB. The other 3 are not active on the DB. Glad to know my vibe meter is in working order.
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I don't even think I POST 10 times in a month....!
Randy
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05:49:21am
Just for the hell of it, I wonder how many posts I have made. Is there a way to access that number ?
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Arno/Bobby--
I wanted to wait a little bit before responding to your comments here.
Arno--Tim, David, and I have been working on the relist problem and the VC should be seeing a proposal soon. In addition, I personally contacted one of the sellers who has small images and I will continue to work with him on this. PM me for specifics if you would like. So you see SOMETHING IS BEING DONE.
Bobby--I have mentioned this before elsewhere, but the problems we are seeing are not with the "professional" sellers, but the issue lies more with a handful of sellers actually who have been allowed to circumvent the rules. I think sellers like Soundcrest, cardstamp, OLDPAUL, herfabu44, etc... have actually contributed to the improvement of material here in the auctions. Again, PM me directly if you want to know specifics.
I just do not like these discussions being brought up in PUBLIC. Arno, you mentioned to me in another thread that I proved your point when I responded to you.
*I* say the same to YOU now.
We both want SOR to be the best it can be. Let's try to do so. BOB
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Bob,
I have no idea what you are talking about. By responding to me, you are proving my point? Unexpected, but thanks anyways.
Arno
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11:06:29am
"I just do not like these discussions being brought up in PUBLIC."
Bob, Please do not take personal affront at these comments. Nobody is blaming you and nobody expects you to solve the issues raised here. A discussion between the two of us, or even among you, Tim, David and Arno would provide limited and narrowly focused perspectives on these issues. By raising the issues in "public" we have the input of potentially a much greater audience, and the possibility that wide ranging thoughts might bring about a solution (in effect "brain storming" the problems).
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03:12:21am
" ... why oh why is there this constant need for change? ..."
That is exactly what I thought when my wife bought our first wireless phone. Heck, I had two extensions in the house as well as four or five outlets to plug a phone into, plus one had a twenty foot long cord.
But there is a broad line between the desire to change things to make them better and the desire to keep things that work well enough the way they are.
I see most of the comments about this or that changes to be considerations of improvements. But, I'll admit that some proposals aren't worth changing what works. that's some, possibly many, but definitely neither all nor even
most.
The thing is that members should feel free to bring them up and let other members mull the idea over and discuss the pros and cons so that the cream will come to the top.
When I first heard the idea about opening an approvals section I thought is was ridiculous and wouldn't work. Well the proof is in the pudding and the Approvals pudding is just right.
There is one problem that some members seem to forget and that is that questioning an idea is not a personal slight, and that is as it should be. The free exchange of ideas is an excellent goal..
If I didn't bring up the idea of a causeway from San Pedro to Honolulu now and then it will never get built. A crazy idea, perhaps, but so was regularly scheduled coast to coast airline flights.
I would suggest that if you take umbrage and feel the urge to respond sharply it may be because you are too sensitive to criticism and are not advancing the discussion.
"Very often understanding springs from civil debate between friends. The Vikings used broadswords and battle axes. That system worked well but had some major drawbacks."
I do not know who said that, or wrote it, but it is one of the many aphorisms, platitudes and hopefully thought provoking bons mots I used to drive my children into marrying early and buying their own place.
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Charlie,
I believe that post might have been better sent as five or six discreet observations rather than wasting it on just one. There is so much good stuff there I hesitate to even write, fearing that my later post will obscure yours.
David
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01:37:21pm
Is it possible that we could program an option to magnify the images on an auction listing? Some sellers attach images that are impossible to get a 'good' look at. Not everyone has the latest state of the art scanners and by having an option to magnify an image would be GREAT.
I know the Wizard can perform MAGIC!
I love this site, keep up the good work.
Cheers
Lyall
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Auctions
re: Listing images......
sorry Lyall, garbage in, garbage out, or what they post is what you get
it would be nice if sellers would use effective images, but a few fail to understand how scanners work. luckily, if the thumbnail is interesting enough, you'll be able to see it magnified in the auction listing itself.
we shouldn't make Tim work to compensate for others' illiteracy or disinterest
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
04 Oct 2015
06:38:10am
re: Listing images......
Unlike some of you, I frequently scan the images by eye for something that looks interesting or seems to be an item I've never seen before. It's a part of my anti-Alzheimer's effort. I know many use the search feature to find items from a carefully tabulated list, but that isn't me.
So a small sized or blurry scan, or a photo taken at an angle hat distorts the item, is like a listing described in Bengali, worthless to me and quickly passed over.
The sad thing is that I am sure that a certain few sellers never actually open the auction themselves, as a buyer might, and see how poorly their wares are displayed in comparison to others.
Another thing, I think that when I open a particular item the resulting scan ought to be a bit larger and clear.
As I approach 5,000 lots purchased (Possibly an average of 1½ to 2 stamps per lot.) any long term member who has never sold me a single stamp might want to consider why.
Now, obviously some may offer US MNH issues exclusively, or sheets of discount postage, but those who offer a wide range of used world wide items might just be one of the sellers whose listings I just scan past as fasr as my fingers can tap the "↓" key and should wonder why.
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re: Listing images......
Like the continuous relisting of unsold lots, which typically means relisting, over and over again, lots that remained unsold for a reason, the small image size is another of those issues that simply won't go away as much as we are trying not to do anything about it.
I see this problem again as an example of improper, inconsiderate use of our member auction.
Yes, one can take the commercial perspective -- images too small, lower sales, seller is only punishing himself, buyers just ignore.
Or one can say the seller is gobbling up club resources, taking away exposure of other sellers, and not following expected courtesy by forcing members to click on auction links that provide insufficient and hence waste-of-time-unbuyable items (over and over again) .
Our auction goes to great length to require proper description of items. Would it be fair to say that a sufficient image is the most important part of an informative description?
Needless to say those with the smallest images are also those with the least descriptive worded description, because the small images are just one other consequence of an "I don't care attitude." I do not buy into the "I am too computer-illiterate to make my images better"-argument. It is our decision to let the seller get away with it and this is why there is no incentive to improve. If you can't operate the hardware, you can't sell online. It is that easy.
I agree with David that it is not Tim's job to remedy and improve sales for lazy, inconsiderate sellers. But similar to our max. picture size limit, it should be easy to program a minimum picture size requirement. That should take care of it.
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
04 Oct 2015
10:59:32am
re: Listing images......
Unfortunately, although the selling platforms on Stamporama are intended to be an extension of club camaraderie, for a growing number of members it has become the sole reason for being here. If you are reading this message, you are not among that number because the folk of whom I speak do not read or participate in the discussion board or any of the other areas of the club - they are here solely to sell stuff. Personally, I think they are just a bunch of freeloaders and I do not bid on their items or buy their approvals. Stamporama was never intended to be a selling venue; the buying, selling and trading features here were meant to emulate those in a typical stamp club environment, not a stamp bourse.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Listing images......
I have played around initially with the scanning and I found (and it was recommended) that I compress everything after scanning so it fits on a page without scrolling. I accomplish that by reducing the image by 1/3. My early books were quite awful due to the scrolling. I've stuck with the 150dpi 1/3 reduction since day one but I'll try some this week at 300dpi 1/3 reduction and see what happens. For auctions 300dpi should be fine as I don't reduce them. As an aside I did scan a whole card with 300dpi and by mistake forgot to reduce it and I was told my image was too big when I tried to upload it to a book.
Greg
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re: Listing images......
Greg, you are a recommended seller! And I've not had problems with your images.
I do not like side scrolling, but I'd rather have to do that, than try and look at tiny images.
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Approvals
re: Listing images......
"for a growing number of members it has become the sole reason for being here. If you are reading this message, you are not among that number because the folk of whom I speak do not read or participate in the discussion board or any of the other areas of the club - they are here solely to sell stuff. Personally, I think they are just a bunch of freeloaders and I do not bid on their items or buy their approvals. "
Same as most hobbies. The model car websites don't allow selling, some don't even allow trading because of the type of people that all attracts. Often those who need to be on the winning end of every trade or deal. The one site that does allow trading is notorious for posts offering common recent stuff, and demanding old high value items in return.
Maybe the powers to be on the board could create some criteria for being allowed to post auctions or approval books. Maybe a minimum amount of posts or other participation in the community? Ten posts a month to maintain status? Thoughts?
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re: Listing images......
Not that I am agreeing OR disagreeing with what is being said, but;
I am a member of another website of a hobby of mine, and there if you do not post in the discussions on a "defined regular basis" you cannot enter any of their regular monthly contest giveaways.
Randy
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Listing images......
Recommended seller? Whoever did that thanks! The image issue is not unique. Other sites have reported the same thing, people putting up poor quality images. Where it seriously comes into play is when you have the magnification ability (check out Stanley Gibbons Marketplace) and then a low res image looks awful. My monitor is 1280x720 and they look OK, but to someone else they might not. Then too there is the issue of speed. I am a very poor test for that sort of thing because of my service. If a lot of high res images on a page cause a very slow download time, a person will surely be turned off by that. As I said I'll try the 300dpi 1/3 compression this week at least for the auctions. If I hear complaints then I'll know I did a bad thing and go back to the old way.
Greg
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02:51:29pm
Auctions - Approvals
re: Listing images......
Greg - I just looked at the scanned images shwoing in your auction listings and they look fine to me.
I am a poor one to judge the quality of someone else's images. My eyesight is so bad that what looks fuzzy to me, might in fact be very clear and sharp.
I scan single stamps at 300 dpi, reduce slightly and then sharpen. For large lots containing many stamps I scan at 200 dp, reduce by about 50% and then sharpen.
I 'assume' my scanned images are clear as I haven't had a complaint from anyone who has viewed them.
Liz
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Listing images......
I've never played with sharpening an image, so I just tried it. I use Paint Shop Pro (the poor mans Photoshop that does everything I need) and I saw no difference in the image. Then again my eyes are not all that great either!
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Listing images......
As an aside the only other forums I ever really participated in was Bidstart where I almost got the boot from the forums AND the site by recommending people come over to Stamporama. That was the last post I ever did in their forums
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re: Listing images......
Hi Everyone;
General non-specific rules do not always work as intended:
Rhinelander said:
"I agree with David that it is not Tim's job to remedy and improve sales for lazy,
inconsiderate sellers. But similar to our max. picture size limit, it should be easy
to program a minimum picture size requirement. That should take care of it."
Someone would interpret that rule to their own sloppy methods, and the result would be a stamp
barely 1:1 in size and surrounded by gobs of black space, to 'set off the stamp', with the result
that they only waste server space. The software for this would not know weather the image is a
stamp or just a lot of empty space. I've seen that a bunch of times!
STAMP Images should be 4x life size minimum by area. That means a 1" x 1" stamp would be 2" x 2"
and instead of one square inch in area, four square inches in area, regardless of the un-cropped
surround. The exception being sets of 5-10 stamps could be 50% bigger.
When I'm looking at listings, I use: Filter > Exclude > username, username, etc. > Refresh and get
rid of all the useless images. Then I can look at all the good ones.
Just like Charlie said:
"worthless to me and quickly passed over."
@ Greg;
Your images are a perfect example of very large in size, with minimum surround. I held a definitive
up to my screen against one of your Washington/Franklins. The top was over 3x the width of a
actual stamp, and over 3x as tall as the same stamp. Congrats Greg, some of the best I've seen
on here.
Just my 2¢ worth....
TuskenRaider
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re: Listing images......
"they are here solely to sell stuff "
"Maybe a minimum amount of posts or other participation in the community? Ten posts a month to maintain status? Thoughts? "
There are currently 243 cover lots listed in the auction. (I did not count the 3 stamps that were listed as covers.) Of those 243 lots, only 60 of them belong to members who have actually purchased an auction lot. Those that did make purchases here, in fact bought/won several lots. That leaves 183 of 243 cover lots being listed by dealers. If the dealers go, it would be slim pickins.
I have won lots from 4 of these dealers. One of them I will not be buying from again. It is doubtful I will buy from two of them again. But there is one I definitely would buy from again. I haven't searched the DB, but I'd be surprised if this person was not contributing to the discussions. He gives a good vibe anyway! lol
You really can't force someone to be friendly or socialize on DBs. I think if posts become mandatory for dealers, the DB will get a lot of useless posts. On the other hand, if they used the DB area to announce lots or something special they are listing etc... to the appropriate area of the DB a couple times a month, they'd be doing themselves a favor. It would help their sales and give them a personality.
Edit: I just searched the DB and the one I would buy from again is indeed active in the DB. The other 3 are not active on the DB. Glad to know my vibe meter is in working order.
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re: Listing images......
I don't even think I POST 10 times in a month....!
Randy
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Oct 2015
05:49:21am
re: Listing images......
Just for the hell of it, I wonder how many posts I have made. Is there a way to access that number ?
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re: Listing images......
Arno/Bobby--
I wanted to wait a little bit before responding to your comments here.
Arno--Tim, David, and I have been working on the relist problem and the VC should be seeing a proposal soon. In addition, I personally contacted one of the sellers who has small images and I will continue to work with him on this. PM me for specifics if you would like. So you see SOMETHING IS BEING DONE.
Bobby--I have mentioned this before elsewhere, but the problems we are seeing are not with the "professional" sellers, but the issue lies more with a handful of sellers actually who have been allowed to circumvent the rules. I think sellers like Soundcrest, cardstamp, OLDPAUL, herfabu44, etc... have actually contributed to the improvement of material here in the auctions. Again, PM me directly if you want to know specifics.
I just do not like these discussions being brought up in PUBLIC. Arno, you mentioned to me in another thread that I proved your point when I responded to you.
*I* say the same to YOU now.
We both want SOR to be the best it can be. Let's try to do so. BOB
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re: Listing images......
Bob,
I have no idea what you are talking about. By responding to me, you are proving my point? Unexpected, but thanks anyways.
Arno
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
15 Oct 2015
11:06:29am
re: Listing images......
"I just do not like these discussions being brought up in PUBLIC."
Bob, Please do not take personal affront at these comments. Nobody is blaming you and nobody expects you to solve the issues raised here. A discussion between the two of us, or even among you, Tim, David and Arno would provide limited and narrowly focused perspectives on these issues. By raising the issues in "public" we have the input of potentially a much greater audience, and the possibility that wide ranging thoughts might bring about a solution (in effect "brain storming" the problems).
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
19 Oct 2015
03:12:21am
re: Listing images......
" ... why oh why is there this constant need for change? ..."
That is exactly what I thought when my wife bought our first wireless phone. Heck, I had two extensions in the house as well as four or five outlets to plug a phone into, plus one had a twenty foot long cord.
But there is a broad line between the desire to change things to make them better and the desire to keep things that work well enough the way they are.
I see most of the comments about this or that changes to be considerations of improvements. But, I'll admit that some proposals aren't worth changing what works. that's some, possibly many, but definitely neither all nor even
most.
The thing is that members should feel free to bring them up and let other members mull the idea over and discuss the pros and cons so that the cream will come to the top.
When I first heard the idea about opening an approvals section I thought is was ridiculous and wouldn't work. Well the proof is in the pudding and the Approvals pudding is just right.
There is one problem that some members seem to forget and that is that questioning an idea is not a personal slight, and that is as it should be. The free exchange of ideas is an excellent goal..
If I didn't bring up the idea of a causeway from San Pedro to Honolulu now and then it will never get built. A crazy idea, perhaps, but so was regularly scheduled coast to coast airline flights.
I would suggest that if you take umbrage and feel the urge to respond sharply it may be because you are too sensitive to criticism and are not advancing the discussion.
"Very often understanding springs from civil debate between friends. The Vikings used broadswords and battle axes. That system worked well but had some major drawbacks."
I do not know who said that, or wrote it, but it is one of the many aphorisms, platitudes and hopefully thought provoking bons mots I used to drive my children into marrying early and buying their own place.
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Auctions
re: Listing images......
Charlie,
I believe that post might have been better sent as five or six discreet observations rather than wasting it on just one. There is so much good stuff there I hesitate to even write, fearing that my later post will obscure yours.
David
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