Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
have just spent a good hour or more trying to find what seems to be an unlisted variety in this booklet....the 1987 MCC Father Time 50p booklet.
I have the Gibbons specialised catalogue and an old copy of the Deegams ( paper edition ).
On checking the phosphor I find that the band at the left is 1mm approx and the band at right is 6mm approx....that means that the 1p has one thin band at the left, the 13p has one wide band at the right and the 2 18p's have a thin and wide band.
Any help would be most appreciated.....is this an unusual variety or am I just overlooking something?
Best wishes,
Brian.
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On mine, the left-hand band measures 4.5mm and the right-hand band 2.5mm, these on the 18p stamps. On the 1p there is only a LHB, on the 13p only a RHB, same measurement as above.
Either you or I have a rare variety and can book our cruise now!
(I'm no expert on GB and only acquired this booklet because of the Lord's connection.)
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04:16:26pm
Brian,
You are referring to DP94B and DP 94C.
I am not sure if this answers your query, but it ought to bear on it. In the Deegam Handbook (Disc) at the bottom of the listing for the 13p stamps, DG130.6.7 and DG130.6.7 there is this note
#3 " ..... (3) the phosphor bars on these stamps were printed by cylinder B68; after printing wide (more than 4.5mm) bars for over a year it began to print narrow bars (less than 4mm).
This phenomenon has never been satisfactorily explained. The most likely cause was
another cylinder with the same number but this was stoutly denied by the printers. The
difference is thought to be too great for it to be explained by spread under printing
pressure, although there are very slight variations of each width ...."
Considering that, and the fact that the phosphor is printed in bars which frequently roam about seemingly on their own accord, I suspect that you will find some variation in placement. As far as listing all such shifts, that is beyond the scope of even the Deegam Handbook. The subject is treated in depth in chapter eleven of the Complete Deegam Machin Handbook, and I believe the current discs are much expanded from the print edition.
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a LWUV image would help ...
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Thanks to all for their responses.
Not sure what a LMUV image is phos45 but at a guess a long wave ultra violet image?.....would be happy to post one if you would be kind enough to let me know how to do so.
Best wishes,
Brian.
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The best way to consider phosphor bands on 2 band stamps is to look at the distance between the stamps. The bands are not always registered centrally, but the distance between the 8mm bands is constant, while that between the 9.5mm bands is also constant but different from the 8mm. This is not always possible on single band booklet stamps - you often need a side band right and a side band left se-tenant to identify the band-width correctly.OK if you have a mint booklet pane - but virtually impossible with used singles.
Malcolm
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open post window ... see upload image ... select image on your computer, then uplaod to post box...
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04:49:18pm
" ... On mine, the left-hand band measures 4.5mm and the right-hand band 2.5mm, these on the 18p stamps. On the 1p there is only a LHB, on the 13p only a RHB, same measurement as above. ..."
On a small, homemade plasticized gauge I have this note for 2b stamps;
"8mm bands or bars leave a 12mm gap"
AND
"9½mm bands or bars leave 10½ gap."
To simplify, complicate, or possibly completely obscure things;
for 4½ LB or 4½ RB stamps that are adjacent LB + LB, or RB + RB should have about a 15½ gap between the bars or bands.
And,
when there are 4½mm LB + 4½mm RB the gap between adjacent LB + RB stamps will be about 31mm.
AND
when there are 4mm LB + 4mm RB stamps that are adjacent the gap between adjacent LB + LB or RB + RB should be stamps be about 16mm.
AND
when there are 4mm LB + 4mm RB stamps the gap between adjacent LB + RB stamps will be about 32mm.
And finally, just when it looks logical and the millimeters all add up, more or less, some adjacent LB + RB combinations actually have split bands with a 1mm gap between halves that was inserted if memory serves me right to reduce wear and tear on the perforation pins. So if cut accurately that will shave about ¼mm from an LB or RB, go figure.
I really hope I got that all right.
Remember that to be a broad band or bar the entire 8mm or 9½ mm band or bar must be completely on the stamp, otherwise it is a wide LB or wide RB (Which on a 2b stamp make the other bar or band thinner).
For a single band or bar stamp that has moved left or right I mark it as OSR or OSL, meaning "Off-Set Left or Off-Set Right". and just add the letters to the DG number.
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I wish I hadn't mentioned the distance between bands now ! I thought I knew a bit about Machins but you have completely lost me !!
It all goes to show that however much you think you know, all it proves is how much you don't know.
The big problem with Machins is that almost all the literature is geared up to collectors of mint stamps. All you actually need to collect mint is a deep pocket. Almost everything has been purchased and hoarded when it was current ( and is available somewhere) and only rarity determines the price.
Those of us collecting postally used stamps have a real problem - there are problems with identifying used singles, and many of the scarcer varieties were almost never postally used- and the vast majority of those that were would have been destroyed unless philatelically inspired.
There is also a patience problem. Do you really want to examine closely 10000 identical stamps in order to find the one elusive variety which may or may not be there? I have envelopes full of Machins to examine - and I find I can only find the patience ( and concentration) to look at about a couple of dozen at one time - and about 3 or 4 values a day at most ( usually less).
Fortunately I am an all-world collector so when it all gets too much I look at something else for a day or two ! It has to be said that seriously collecting Machins and hunting for varieties is certainly a long term venture.
Malcolm
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01:49:18am
" .... Fortunately I am an all-world collector so when it all gets too much I look at something else for a day or two ! It has to be said that seriously collecting Machins and hunting for varieties is certainly a long term venture. ..."
I think we all (Serious postally used Machin collectors.) share those same experiences. But still they seem to be able to attract determined collectors.
I have noticed one interesting thing. In past years I occasionally received an envelope stuffed with Machins, often on paper, along with a note saying " I started sorting, or washing, a big kiloware lot and they are simply more than I can handle," or words to that effect. Once the gift was a big box weighing several pounds and took me weeks to go through.
Recently, that has not happened.
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I think that the high usage of 2nd blue and 1st red has taken the interest out of modern kiloware, certainly prior to the issue of the newest stamps with the security markings.
Kiloware for a few years prior to this consisted of almost 90% the 2 stamps above - and buying quantities of stamps just to examine 10% of them doesn't appeal.
Compare to the period of fairly rapid inflation in the 1970s and 1980s when almost every selection of kiiloware contained dozens of basic stamps - let alone variations, plus the poorer quality control meany flyspecks and shades in profusion too.
.....happy days.
Malcolm
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09:43:14pm
I hated doing it but the last Kiloware I bought from the UK I had to choose one that advertised "NO NVIs" even though it cost more and was more likely picked through by someone who knew the difference.
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Hello,
have just spent a good hour or more trying to find what seems to be an unlisted variety in this booklet....the 1987 MCC Father Time 50p booklet.
I have the Gibbons specialised catalogue and an old copy of the Deegams ( paper edition ).
On checking the phosphor I find that the band at the left is 1mm approx and the band at right is 6mm approx....that means that the 1p has one thin band at the left, the 13p has one wide band at the right and the 2 18p's have a thin and wide band.
Any help would be most appreciated.....is this an unusual variety or am I just overlooking something?
Best wishes,
Brian.
Login to Like
this post
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
On mine, the left-hand band measures 4.5mm and the right-hand band 2.5mm, these on the 18p stamps. On the 1p there is only a LHB, on the 13p only a RHB, same measurement as above.
Either you or I have a rare variety and can book our cruise now!
(I'm no expert on GB and only acquired this booklet because of the Lord's connection.)
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
22 Oct 2015
04:16:26pm
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
Brian,
You are referring to DP94B and DP 94C.
I am not sure if this answers your query, but it ought to bear on it. In the Deegam Handbook (Disc) at the bottom of the listing for the 13p stamps, DG130.6.7 and DG130.6.7 there is this note
#3 " ..... (3) the phosphor bars on these stamps were printed by cylinder B68; after printing wide (more than 4.5mm) bars for over a year it began to print narrow bars (less than 4mm).
This phenomenon has never been satisfactorily explained. The most likely cause was
another cylinder with the same number but this was stoutly denied by the printers. The
difference is thought to be too great for it to be explained by spread under printing
pressure, although there are very slight variations of each width ...."
Considering that, and the fact that the phosphor is printed in bars which frequently roam about seemingly on their own accord, I suspect that you will find some variation in placement. As far as listing all such shifts, that is beyond the scope of even the Deegam Handbook. The subject is treated in depth in chapter eleven of the Complete Deegam Machin Handbook, and I believe the current discs are much expanded from the print edition.
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re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
a LWUV image would help ...
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re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
Thanks to all for their responses.
Not sure what a LMUV image is phos45 but at a guess a long wave ultra violet image?.....would be happy to post one if you would be kind enough to let me know how to do so.
Best wishes,
Brian.
Login to Like
this post
02:25:27pm
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
The best way to consider phosphor bands on 2 band stamps is to look at the distance between the stamps. The bands are not always registered centrally, but the distance between the 8mm bands is constant, while that between the 9.5mm bands is also constant but different from the 8mm. This is not always possible on single band booklet stamps - you often need a side band right and a side band left se-tenant to identify the band-width correctly.OK if you have a mint booklet pane - but virtually impossible with used singles.
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
open post window ... see upload image ... select image on your computer, then uplaod to post box...
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
27 Oct 2015
04:49:18pm
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
" ... On mine, the left-hand band measures 4.5mm and the right-hand band 2.5mm, these on the 18p stamps. On the 1p there is only a LHB, on the 13p only a RHB, same measurement as above. ..."
On a small, homemade plasticized gauge I have this note for 2b stamps;
"8mm bands or bars leave a 12mm gap"
AND
"9½mm bands or bars leave 10½ gap."
To simplify, complicate, or possibly completely obscure things;
for 4½ LB or 4½ RB stamps that are adjacent LB + LB, or RB + RB should have about a 15½ gap between the bars or bands.
And,
when there are 4½mm LB + 4½mm RB the gap between adjacent LB + RB stamps will be about 31mm.
AND
when there are 4mm LB + 4mm RB stamps that are adjacent the gap between adjacent LB + LB or RB + RB should be stamps be about 16mm.
AND
when there are 4mm LB + 4mm RB stamps the gap between adjacent LB + RB stamps will be about 32mm.
And finally, just when it looks logical and the millimeters all add up, more or less, some adjacent LB + RB combinations actually have split bands with a 1mm gap between halves that was inserted if memory serves me right to reduce wear and tear on the perforation pins. So if cut accurately that will shave about ¼mm from an LB or RB, go figure.
I really hope I got that all right.
Remember that to be a broad band or bar the entire 8mm or 9½ mm band or bar must be completely on the stamp, otherwise it is a wide LB or wide RB (Which on a 2b stamp make the other bar or band thinner).
For a single band or bar stamp that has moved left or right I mark it as OSR or OSL, meaning "Off-Set Left or Off-Set Right". and just add the letters to the DG number.
Login to Like
this post
06:39:12am
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
I wish I hadn't mentioned the distance between bands now ! I thought I knew a bit about Machins but you have completely lost me !!
It all goes to show that however much you think you know, all it proves is how much you don't know.
The big problem with Machins is that almost all the literature is geared up to collectors of mint stamps. All you actually need to collect mint is a deep pocket. Almost everything has been purchased and hoarded when it was current ( and is available somewhere) and only rarity determines the price.
Those of us collecting postally used stamps have a real problem - there are problems with identifying used singles, and many of the scarcer varieties were almost never postally used- and the vast majority of those that were would have been destroyed unless philatelically inspired.
There is also a patience problem. Do you really want to examine closely 10000 identical stamps in order to find the one elusive variety which may or may not be there? I have envelopes full of Machins to examine - and I find I can only find the patience ( and concentration) to look at about a couple of dozen at one time - and about 3 or 4 values a day at most ( usually less).
Fortunately I am an all-world collector so when it all gets too much I look at something else for a day or two ! It has to be said that seriously collecting Machins and hunting for varieties is certainly a long term venture.
Malcolm
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likes this post.
Login to Like.
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
29 Oct 2015
01:49:18am
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
" .... Fortunately I am an all-world collector so when it all gets too much I look at something else for a day or two ! It has to be said that seriously collecting Machins and hunting for varieties is certainly a long term venture. ..."
I think we all (Serious postally used Machin collectors.) share those same experiences. But still they seem to be able to attract determined collectors.
I have noticed one interesting thing. In past years I occasionally received an envelope stuffed with Machins, often on paper, along with a note saying " I started sorting, or washing, a big kiloware lot and they are simply more than I can handle," or words to that effect. Once the gift was a big box weighing several pounds and took me weeks to go through.
Recently, that has not happened.
Login to Like
this post
11:05:25am
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
I think that the high usage of 2nd blue and 1st red has taken the interest out of modern kiloware, certainly prior to the issue of the newest stamps with the security markings.
Kiloware for a few years prior to this consisted of almost 90% the 2 stamps above - and buying quantities of stamps just to examine 10% of them doesn't appeal.
Compare to the period of fairly rapid inflation in the 1970s and 1980s when almost every selection of kiiloware contained dozens of basic stamps - let alone variations, plus the poorer quality control meany flyspecks and shades in profusion too.
.....happy days.
Malcolm
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
02 Nov 2015
09:43:14pm
re: Thin and wide phosphor bands on MCC 50 p booklet...help please!!
I hated doing it but the last Kiloware I bought from the UK I had to choose one that advertised "NO NVIs" even though it cost more and was more likely picked through by someone who knew the difference.
Login to Like
this post