Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stamps-356-Avg-to-Fine-OG-Scott-Value-3-250-00-/141832852311?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
A mint 338 only catalogs for about $70. It's easy to find one with a straight edge on the top or bottom and manufacture something similar. This is not that good of a job, really. I sent a message to the seller that's it's a very obvious fake, and he said he would look into it. Apparently he is still looking as the price climbs north of $300.
Amazing!
Lars
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The price is now $338. How appropriate since it's really Scott # 338!
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Over $500 with 3 minutes to go.
Interesting that a bid over 12 hours ago is still holding.
An ad hoc reserve bid perhaps?
Intersting!
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09:46:48pm
Closed at $511.
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He's on my "No Buy" list.
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The top margin is uneven and tapers from right to left. That is obvious.
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Could you please tell me, how you saw the double line watermark on this stamp. #338-#356-#364-#381 to be a #338 it should have one. if this was a coil stamp were they not cut at every 20 ith stamp. please tell me.
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They have been on my "Black list" for over 25 years. They seem to have a poor knowledge of stamps in general and it obviously has not improved. It really does not take much knowledge to see that this stamp has been clearly altered, so that says something even worse about them. What is amazing is how many stupid collectors out there that would think the stamp is legit. Since the auction is closed all I can see is the small image of the stamp. Even though the size is small it is easy to see that the imperf sides are very uneven and that it has probably been reperfed at right as the perfed margins are much smaller than they should be.
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Antonius, here is the larger image of the stamp.
I greatly enjoy these "fake stamp" discussions. As a kid, I never had the money to get close to these stamps, fake or otherwise. Now that I'm a bit older, I need to become a bit wiser before parting with some of my hard-earned money.
-Steve
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10:04:19am
LOL! As Antonius has observed, there is a serious lack of knowledge on the part of certain sellers. That is why I like to purchase albums/collections from them as they invariably overlook many valuable items when cherrypicking the collection prior to placing it for auction.
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And this dealer has listed another one similar to above:
Another Suspicious Stamp
Bruce
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-11-27 13:09:47)
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The listing has a toll-free number. I called it and spoke to someone in the shop. He said that there was no one available to talk to me about it. I referred him to this post, which he did look at it. He said that the shop recently hired a new person who is not that well versed at identifying stamps. (Nice way to ruin your business.)
I was told that they will look at the stamp.
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The thread had me intrigued and i looked up this seller's (anthonys1-800-451-9645) offers.
The first one I noticed was a Bulgaria #5, starting at $0.01.
Here is the image from the auction:
And here a real Bulgaria #5 (in Francs) next to a Bulgaria #27 (in Lew):
Both stamps are easily identifiable, even in the image-poor Scott catalog (designs A2 and A10). The generally very poor knowledge of the seller has been pointed out. I believe this is likely due to this being a mass operation where non-philatelist minimum wage part timers scan and list stamps without really knowing anything about the subject.
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For me, it doesn't take long to lose confidence in a seller when I find consistent misidentifications. I see this alot in APS sales books. A seller will state on the cover that the stamps are MNH. I start going through the book and find hinged instead. The wrong catalog numbers happen now and then as well. It is easy to simply close the book, attach a sticky note on it to advice others on the circuit, and move on to the next one in the circuit.
I'm pretty sure that everyone makes a mistake in identifying a stamp catalog number or condition. Tired eyes after working a few hours on the collection will do that. However, it is the consistency of misidentification (either intentional or not) that is the problem.
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The listing on the #338 has this additional little gem of a comment:
'Hinge remnants, Gum Thin & Creases Pencil Notation On Reverse'
So in addition to it being questionable, it has flaws. No idea given what the back looks like, but someone bidding $500 plus wouldn't care anyway.
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How could anyone bid anything on this? It's plain as day from the image that it is a trimmed fake.
Oh and regarding the seller, they have ZERO ethics. They make up catalog values, inflate lot/collection values to obscene amounts, and routinely sell fake material. File next to Apfelbaum and Bill Lang under "unethical shysters and ripoff artists".
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I contacted them about this newest item. They replied today. Here is what they said:
"ok"
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"Could you please tell me, how you saw the double line watermark on this stamp. #338-#356-#364-#381 to be a #338 it should have one. if this was a coil stamp were they not cut at every 20 ith stamp. please tell me."
Redneck,
You don't have to see a watermark. By looking at the straight edges it's fairly obvious it is a trimmed stamp. You're right, it COULD be a trimmed 381, but 338s are cheaper. I can't see someone destroying a 364 with a CV of $1750 to try and fake a $3250 #356 when a 338 is only $67.50 and if it has a natural straight edge on top or bottom, all the better and the value would be less for the original 338 since some folks don't like straight edges. Flat Plate Press coil stamps were cut into strips of 20 but a tab was left on one end or side to facilitate a "paste-up" pair so that coils of 500 or 1000 stamps were possible.
Lars
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Thank you Lars, Pretty good explanation. I would think you would have to be way off to confuse a 338 with a 364. They so far apart in shades you could not confuse the two.just sold for $187.00. closest to a #356 if it has not been tampered with. I would have it expertized.
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I recently purchased a trimmed stamp that was sold as a higher priced coil.Luckily I was able to get a refund with no problem.
I wondered if there was any way to determine whether a coil had been trimmed by examining the photo on my computer. Measurements have been published for both vertically and horizontally perforated coils. One reference states that the vertical coils are 24.5 to 25 mm high and any coil shorter is highly suspect of being a fake. Horizontal coils are 21.0 to 22 mm wide. The stamp image of the Washington-Franklin flat plate issues is 22 1/4 mm high and 181/2 to 19 mm wide.
I assumed that using the ratio of the coil height to the image height would give me a number that I could apply to measurements of the stamp on the computer. Any stamp with a ratio less than the calculated figure for an authentic coil would be suspect.
The example using the fake 356 is: The ratio of an authentic coil (height 25.0 / image 22.25) is 1.1236
The measurement of the photo of the fake coil that I printed is 165mm/156mm =1.077. This is not conclusive evidence that the stamp is trimmed but does raise a red flag.
Is the method I used valid?
Thank you for your thoughts.
LarryG
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If the stamp is high priced, and one known to have a history of being faked, ask the seller if the stamp has a certificate. If the seller does, ask the seller to post an image of it it so you can read it. If the seller refuses, or the certificate looks fake, then walk away.
You can also post a link to the stamp in question and ask for opinions from the people here.
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Good idea, but it might be difficult to do in an auction
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"Good idea, but it might be difficult to do in an auction"
Another reason to be more cautious when considering the method of selling. Of course, eBay will refund your purchase price if you find that something was not as described.
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I keep a dial caliper in my stamp drawer for doing those types of measurements - a very handy tool to have.
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Hi Everyone;
Theresa just mentioned the use of a dial caliper for checking stamps. I have one also, but I'm curious
about it's use. Can it be used to tell hard paper from soft paper? If it can what thickness difference
would I be expecting to find? Most paper I've checked is usually 5-6 thousandths thick (.005"-.006")
Just wonderin'....
TuskenRaider
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I bought a micrometer, much more precise than a caliper, for measuring paper thickness when I was learning about wet/dry printings. I found it to be a complete failure, at least for me. There are so many variables, and when dealing with such small measurements, it takes very little to throw you off a lot. On mint stamps, gum ridges and creases or any other abnormality in gum thickness is a huge variation. The same problem happened with used stamps. If it wasn't dried perfectly flat or if the measurement was taken over a printed section versus an unprinted section, the numbers were way off. If someone else has had better luck, I would love to hear how they did it.
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This is the coil that was produced by trimming the perforated stamp. As you can see the top is cut unevenly. When examined the bottom edge shows some "wear" and the top. Is smooth indicating recent trimming with the right wider than the left.
The stamp is considerately shorter than 25mm.
LarryG
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Also, remember that coils are cut to specific measurements, because they had to fit in various dispensing machines. Coil stamps being offered for sale that have huge imperf sides are 99.99% fake. It's easy to verify by putting a know genuine coil of the same issue on top of the suspect stamp. If you see the imperf margins sticking out from below, that is not a good sign.
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What is the concensus of the number of perforations on this stamp. could you please tell me.
I am trying to see why anyone would try to fake such an inexpensive stamp.I count 11 perfs
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I must be a magnet for fake coils.
A few weeks ago, I purchased a lot of Washington-Franklin stamps on eBay.
Included with the lot were several coil stamps. Some were marked with a?and I assumed that they were of questionable authenticity. Other stamps did not have a ? and when I measured them, they were obviously trimmed. My payment was returned with no questions.
Today I saw the same lot on eBay and the fake stamps were included, with no indication that they were questionable.
LarryG
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"Today I saw the same lot on eBay and the fake stamps were included, with no indication that they were questionable."
Not at all surprising. They are looking to find a mark. They don't care about integrity.
Since I started this thread many moons ago, let me throw in a wrinkle:
There are some stamps offered online that are truly borderline:
Who agrees with Weiss and who agrees with PSE?
Lars
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We have to remember that any organization we send stamps to render an "opinion". There is often disagreement between experts within the same organization about a stamp. No one is perfect, even the experts. When I had that oddball 1057 Liberty coil, I sent it to Mr. Weiss. He told me it was a perfectly normal 1057 and I needed to learn to use a perf gauge (his exact words), but when I sent it to Ken Lawrence, he immediately identified it as a "mill splice", and the double thick paper caused abnormal shrinkage causing the size and perforation difference. So, even the experts can be and sometimes are, wrong.
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"So, even the experts can be and sometimes are, wrong."
Exactly, and that's why it behooves us to educate ourselves and not blindly depend on experts so we know when we should ask for a second opinion.
Usually when I get an expert opinion that differs from what I initially thought, I smack my forehead and think, "Duh!" But on rare occasions you may be unpersuaded, and Sean's example is a good one. If you have done your homework and think the expert is wrong, he or she just might be!
Great example, Sean!
Lars
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In answer to your question....I'm going to go with PSE on this one.
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Here's one that has me scratching my head... I bought this with the certificate. Still paid a decent dollar so people were bidding.
I immediately recognized the stamps as a private perf coil pair that Covell Manufacturing had Schermack do for them. These are well documented and I own several examples, and have seen several on cover that were properly identified.
So my question... are these so called experts only answering the question they are asked... as in "Is this a real Scott 318 (the ultra rare post office issued coil)?" or should they be able to tell you what it is beyond "FAKE"?
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PSE, and other "experts" could offer a service that entails more analysis. i.e. pointing out where or why something is amiss, rather than just stating, "sorry about that". There would no doubt be an up charge for such a service, but that's fair given that there is more time involved.
Such explanations would go a long way toward educating the stamp collecting public.
David
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After reading articles in Linn's written by people who perform expertizations, I have the impression that they only render an opinion in regards to the actual questions asked. So when I submit an item for expertization, I try to be as explicit as possible and ask every question that might be needed for proper identification.
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I would definitely contact them about this one, maybe they will issue a revised certificate.
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I feel sorry for the poor schmuck that wins this auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stamps-356-Avg-to-Fine-OG-Scott-Value-3-250-00-/141832852311?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
A mint 338 only catalogs for about $70. It's easy to find one with a straight edge on the top or bottom and manufacture something similar. This is not that good of a job, really. I sent a message to the seller that's it's a very obvious fake, and he said he would look into it. Apparently he is still looking as the price climbs north of $300.
Amazing!
Lars
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
The price is now $338. How appropriate since it's really Scott # 338!
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Over $500 with 3 minutes to go.
Interesting that a bid over 12 hours ago is still holding.
An ad hoc reserve bid perhaps?
Intersting!
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
22 Nov 2015
09:46:48pm
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Closed at $511.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
He's on my "No Buy" list.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
The top margin is uneven and tapers from right to left. That is obvious.
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09:19:16am
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Could you please tell me, how you saw the double line watermark on this stamp. #338-#356-#364-#381 to be a #338 it should have one. if this was a coil stamp were they not cut at every 20 ith stamp. please tell me.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
They have been on my "Black list" for over 25 years. They seem to have a poor knowledge of stamps in general and it obviously has not improved. It really does not take much knowledge to see that this stamp has been clearly altered, so that says something even worse about them. What is amazing is how many stupid collectors out there that would think the stamp is legit. Since the auction is closed all I can see is the small image of the stamp. Even though the size is small it is easy to see that the imperf sides are very uneven and that it has probably been reperfed at right as the perfed margins are much smaller than they should be.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Antonius, here is the larger image of the stamp.
I greatly enjoy these "fake stamp" discussions. As a kid, I never had the money to get close to these stamps, fake or otherwise. Now that I'm a bit older, I need to become a bit wiser before parting with some of my hard-earned money.
-Steve
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They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin
24 Nov 2015
10:04:19am
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
LOL! As Antonius has observed, there is a serious lack of knowledge on the part of certain sellers. That is why I like to purchase albums/collections from them as they invariably overlook many valuable items when cherrypicking the collection prior to placing it for auction.
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01:04:17pm
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
And this dealer has listed another one similar to above:
Another Suspicious Stamp
Bruce
(Modified by Moderator on 2015-11-27 13:09:47)
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
The listing has a toll-free number. I called it and spoke to someone in the shop. He said that there was no one available to talk to me about it. I referred him to this post, which he did look at it. He said that the shop recently hired a new person who is not that well versed at identifying stamps. (Nice way to ruin your business.)
I was told that they will look at the stamp.
Login to Like
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
The thread had me intrigued and i looked up this seller's (anthonys1-800-451-9645) offers.
The first one I noticed was a Bulgaria #5, starting at $0.01.
Here is the image from the auction:
And here a real Bulgaria #5 (in Francs) next to a Bulgaria #27 (in Lew):
Both stamps are easily identifiable, even in the image-poor Scott catalog (designs A2 and A10). The generally very poor knowledge of the seller has been pointed out. I believe this is likely due to this being a mass operation where non-philatelist minimum wage part timers scan and list stamps without really knowing anything about the subject.
Login to Like
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
For me, it doesn't take long to lose confidence in a seller when I find consistent misidentifications. I see this alot in APS sales books. A seller will state on the cover that the stamps are MNH. I start going through the book and find hinged instead. The wrong catalog numbers happen now and then as well. It is easy to simply close the book, attach a sticky note on it to advice others on the circuit, and move on to the next one in the circuit.
I'm pretty sure that everyone makes a mistake in identifying a stamp catalog number or condition. Tired eyes after working a few hours on the collection will do that. However, it is the consistency of misidentification (either intentional or not) that is the problem.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
The listing on the #338 has this additional little gem of a comment:
'Hinge remnants, Gum Thin & Creases Pencil Notation On Reverse'
So in addition to it being questionable, it has flaws. No idea given what the back looks like, but someone bidding $500 plus wouldn't care anyway.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
How could anyone bid anything on this? It's plain as day from the image that it is a trimmed fake.
Oh and regarding the seller, they have ZERO ethics. They make up catalog values, inflate lot/collection values to obscene amounts, and routinely sell fake material. File next to Apfelbaum and Bill Lang under "unethical shysters and ripoff artists".
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
I contacted them about this newest item. They replied today. Here is what they said:
"ok"
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
"Could you please tell me, how you saw the double line watermark on this stamp. #338-#356-#364-#381 to be a #338 it should have one. if this was a coil stamp were they not cut at every 20 ith stamp. please tell me."
Redneck,
You don't have to see a watermark. By looking at the straight edges it's fairly obvious it is a trimmed stamp. You're right, it COULD be a trimmed 381, but 338s are cheaper. I can't see someone destroying a 364 with a CV of $1750 to try and fake a $3250 #356 when a 338 is only $67.50 and if it has a natural straight edge on top or bottom, all the better and the value would be less for the original 338 since some folks don't like straight edges. Flat Plate Press coil stamps were cut into strips of 20 but a tab was left on one end or side to facilitate a "paste-up" pair so that coils of 500 or 1000 stamps were possible.
Lars
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08:03:42pm
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Thank you Lars, Pretty good explanation. I would think you would have to be way off to confuse a 338 with a 364. They so far apart in shades you could not confuse the two.just sold for $187.00. closest to a #356 if it has not been tampered with. I would have it expertized.
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07:01:53pm
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
I recently purchased a trimmed stamp that was sold as a higher priced coil.Luckily I was able to get a refund with no problem.
I wondered if there was any way to determine whether a coil had been trimmed by examining the photo on my computer. Measurements have been published for both vertically and horizontally perforated coils. One reference states that the vertical coils are 24.5 to 25 mm high and any coil shorter is highly suspect of being a fake. Horizontal coils are 21.0 to 22 mm wide. The stamp image of the Washington-Franklin flat plate issues is 22 1/4 mm high and 181/2 to 19 mm wide.
I assumed that using the ratio of the coil height to the image height would give me a number that I could apply to measurements of the stamp on the computer. Any stamp with a ratio less than the calculated figure for an authentic coil would be suspect.
The example using the fake 356 is: The ratio of an authentic coil (height 25.0 / image 22.25) is 1.1236
The measurement of the photo of the fake coil that I printed is 165mm/156mm =1.077. This is not conclusive evidence that the stamp is trimmed but does raise a red flag.
Is the method I used valid?
Thank you for your thoughts.
LarryG
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
If the stamp is high priced, and one known to have a history of being faked, ask the seller if the stamp has a certificate. If the seller does, ask the seller to post an image of it it so you can read it. If the seller refuses, or the certificate looks fake, then walk away.
You can also post a link to the stamp in question and ask for opinions from the people here.
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09:59:23am
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Good idea, but it might be difficult to do in an auction
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
"Good idea, but it might be difficult to do in an auction"
Another reason to be more cautious when considering the method of selling. Of course, eBay will refund your purchase price if you find that something was not as described.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
I keep a dial caliper in my stamp drawer for doing those types of measurements - a very handy tool to have.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Hi Everyone;
Theresa just mentioned the use of a dial caliper for checking stamps. I have one also, but I'm curious
about it's use. Can it be used to tell hard paper from soft paper? If it can what thickness difference
would I be expecting to find? Most paper I've checked is usually 5-6 thousandths thick (.005"-.006")
Just wonderin'....
TuskenRaider
Login to Like
this post
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
I bought a micrometer, much more precise than a caliper, for measuring paper thickness when I was learning about wet/dry printings. I found it to be a complete failure, at least for me. There are so many variables, and when dealing with such small measurements, it takes very little to throw you off a lot. On mint stamps, gum ridges and creases or any other abnormality in gum thickness is a huge variation. The same problem happened with used stamps. If it wasn't dried perfectly flat or if the measurement was taken over a printed section versus an unprinted section, the numbers were way off. If someone else has had better luck, I would love to hear how they did it.
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02:03:27pm
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
This is the coil that was produced by trimming the perforated stamp. As you can see the top is cut unevenly. When examined the bottom edge shows some "wear" and the top. Is smooth indicating recent trimming with the right wider than the left.
The stamp is considerately shorter than 25mm.
LarryG
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Also, remember that coils are cut to specific measurements, because they had to fit in various dispensing machines. Coil stamps being offered for sale that have huge imperf sides are 99.99% fake. It's easy to verify by putting a know genuine coil of the same issue on top of the suspect stamp. If you see the imperf margins sticking out from below, that is not a good sign.
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10:36:58am
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
What is the concensus of the number of perforations on this stamp. could you please tell me.
I am trying to see why anyone would try to fake such an inexpensive stamp.I count 11 perfs
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12:32:04pm
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
I must be a magnet for fake coils.
A few weeks ago, I purchased a lot of Washington-Franklin stamps on eBay.
Included with the lot were several coil stamps. Some were marked with a?and I assumed that they were of questionable authenticity. Other stamps did not have a ? and when I measured them, they were obviously trimmed. My payment was returned with no questions.
Today I saw the same lot on eBay and the fake stamps were included, with no indication that they were questionable.
LarryG
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
"Today I saw the same lot on eBay and the fake stamps were included, with no indication that they were questionable."
Not at all surprising. They are looking to find a mark. They don't care about integrity.
Since I started this thread many moons ago, let me throw in a wrinkle:
There are some stamps offered online that are truly borderline:
Who agrees with Weiss and who agrees with PSE?
Lars
Login to Like
this post
re: Another obvious fake on eBay
We have to remember that any organization we send stamps to render an "opinion". There is often disagreement between experts within the same organization about a stamp. No one is perfect, even the experts. When I had that oddball 1057 Liberty coil, I sent it to Mr. Weiss. He told me it was a perfectly normal 1057 and I needed to learn to use a perf gauge (his exact words), but when I sent it to Ken Lawrence, he immediately identified it as a "mill splice", and the double thick paper caused abnormal shrinkage causing the size and perforation difference. So, even the experts can be and sometimes are, wrong.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
"So, even the experts can be and sometimes are, wrong."
Exactly, and that's why it behooves us to educate ourselves and not blindly depend on experts so we know when we should ask for a second opinion.
Usually when I get an expert opinion that differs from what I initially thought, I smack my forehead and think, "Duh!" But on rare occasions you may be unpersuaded, and Sean's example is a good one. If you have done your homework and think the expert is wrong, he or she just might be!
Great example, Sean!
Lars
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
In answer to your question....I'm going to go with PSE on this one.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
Here's one that has me scratching my head... I bought this with the certificate. Still paid a decent dollar so people were bidding.
I immediately recognized the stamps as a private perf coil pair that Covell Manufacturing had Schermack do for them. These are well documented and I own several examples, and have seen several on cover that were properly identified.
So my question... are these so called experts only answering the question they are asked... as in "Is this a real Scott 318 (the ultra rare post office issued coil)?" or should they be able to tell you what it is beyond "FAKE"?
Login to Like
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
PSE, and other "experts" could offer a service that entails more analysis. i.e. pointing out where or why something is amiss, rather than just stating, "sorry about that". There would no doubt be an up charge for such a service, but that's fair given that there is more time involved.
Such explanations would go a long way toward educating the stamp collecting public.
David
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
After reading articles in Linn's written by people who perform expertizations, I have the impression that they only render an opinion in regards to the actual questions asked. So when I submit an item for expertization, I try to be as explicit as possible and ask every question that might be needed for proper identification.
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re: Another obvious fake on eBay
I would definitely contact them about this one, maybe they will issue a revised certificate.
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