Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
In my earlier days of collecting, I assumed that the term meant there was a reasonable chance of finding a true gem or two in the mix. Now I'm not so sure. It's hard for me to believe that anyone would just pack stamps in large packets without at least making sure there wasn't an easily spotted high value stamp in the bunch.
I haven't purchased one of these commercial lots in a number of years, but rather, have stuck to smaller lots or singles that I knew would fill a hole or at least upgrade a stamp I already had.
Just interested as to how others feel about it. Do large lots and kiloware commonly yield a few really good stamps or are they just a suckers bet full of mundane issues and mass duplicates? I suppose there is the element of who's selling the lots, but I'm mostly curious about the commercial dealers, rather then the individuals selling off grandpas collection.
WB
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I generally buy cover lots and often find cool things in them. Of course what I consider cool, others would just look past. I have found neat things that dealers don't notice too, even on eBay. For instance a dealer was advertising an old postcard for the DPO postmark, and had neglected to notice it was posted on Christmas eve and received on Christmas day. I grabbed that one right up.
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You here of a lot more people that have won the lottery than you do people that have found treasure in so called unpicked lots or kilo ware from dealers. On the other hand mixed world lots at auctions often will have some real goodies. Especially when it comes to subtypes. It really depends on how knowledgeable the auction company is and how many people they have listing lots that are clueless. The best bet you have in getting gems hidden in lots is by educating yourself. Don't buy without pictures.
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True story. Found a full red wheat cent in circulation about two years ago. Would love to hear stories of members finding high value misidentified items in lots.
-Ernie
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I can see where "unpicked" would be the proper term, my choice of words was off. For the sake of this conversation, let us interpret the words as meaning the same thing. I think sellers/dealers use the term "unsorted" somewhat loosely and as often as not, to lead buyers to believe the stamps haven't been searched for high value stamps. It is good to know that at least the occasional find still slips by in the large lots.
BenFranklin, that sounds like a great old cover, congrats!
Antonius, world wide is where I would have the most interest when it comes to the larger lots, so many holes to fill I'm bound to find a few in the pile. I have many holes yet to fill for U.S. also, but am far enough along now, that I prefer to buy short lots or singles that I know I need. The problem with 1000+ lots and even bigger kilo ware lots, is that pics usually consist of a big pile and the phrase "pic shows a sample of what you MAY/MIGHT receive". 
Overall, I wouldn't go into the large lots thinking it's going to be a treasure trove, but it would be nice to feel there was at least a chance of finding the occasional "over the top" stamp.
WB
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"Found a full red wheat cent in circulation"
Ernie, there are alot of them still in circulation. Saw them all the time when breaking bank rolls of cents. Can still find silver coinage as well, though that is relatively scarce to do.
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I had the experience of picking over one of these lots long ago of some Great Britan stamps which had many duplicates. What I was looking for were various perfs and water marks. Found the right perf listed at $0.65 and checked the water mark and BINGO it had an odd wm worth $65.00.
And thats the fun of going through unsorted stuff.
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WhiteBuffalo, Probably the best place to find 19th century higher U.S. values is from German auction houses. High values were mostly used on mail going out of the country.
Also Germany probably has the highest concentration of stamp collectors. I have found many super deals in mixed lots from there. Conversely the U.S. is probably the worst place to find great deals on U.S. material.
Are you in the K.C. area?
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Mr. Bridges, that's another one of those finds that I was wondering if still exists in today's super lots. Congrats on a nice find!!
Antonious, I'll check out the German markets and no, I'm about as far south as you can get without being in Arkansas.
Thanks for the comments, conversation and advice, folks!
WB
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Unsorted and unpicked are usually "recycled". This however does not mean that interesting, (but not necessarily valuable) stuff is not there.
Obviously high value stuff is usually removed at source,leaving the general left.Someone buys the stuff, removes what they want,combines it with other remainders and passes it on, when it gets new stuff added and is passed on and on.
What is important buying mixed lots is that you vary the source. In the days when I bought kiloware,I seldom bought the same mixture from the same supplier. They buy wholesale in large quantities and so until that consignment is sold you get more of the same. However a different supplier may use a different wholesaler, so the content can be different - or buy a different mix of countries. In my experience, (oversimplyfying of course) kiloware or on paper mixtures contains more recent stamps than off-paper mixtures, but off-paper mixtures often contain damaged or generally grotty stamps as the best quality has been filtered out earlier in the supply chain. Mixtures purchased from dealers as original source often only have the obvious gems removed as they do not have the time to "flyspeck" every stamp, while collector material is usually more varied but has been closely examined. Collection remainders, which you know have had all the valuable items removed usually provides the biggest selections of cheap-value stamps -but these are now becoming more expensive than hitherto.
You pays your money and takes your choice, and while returns have been across the board from indifferent to very good, I can honestly say that I have never had a lot that I thought to be a waste of money. Even the indifferent lots have provided material for trading, where the total haul has been improved beyond the value of the original lot.It is also important to note that many minimum catalogue value stamps are actually quite elusive and almost never turn up in mixtures or collections.
I have not purchased kiloware or mixtures for some years now as I am still processing boxes of it ( now I finally have some time). Certainly GB kiloware must be very difficult due to the huge numbers of 2nd blue and 1st red NVI stamps present.
This sort of material is good for the general collector, provided that your expectations are realistic.
Malcolm
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Unsorted is probably for the most part a marketing term intended to pull in buyers who have hope that the lot is indeed unsorted--whatever that really means. However, there is always the possibility, slim, but a possibility exists that something of interest will be found, particularly if one collects items that are not normally collected by most people--no dealer can know every rare stamp variation or esoteric usage on a cover, etc.
I remember years ago, a national television program sent out hidden camera reporters to 10 or so "reputable" Washington D.C. antique dealers. The reporter brought with them a very very valuable antique. If memory is correct, 9 out of the 10 antique dealers when queried about the antique's value stated that the very rare item was common and worth very little. All 9 offered to buy the item of course for a significantly small sum. The one honest dealer stated its true value--too rich for his blood. The fun part was when the reporter returned with visible cameraman in tow filming the various reactions.
I kind of view the unsorted claims in their many variations among the philatelic dealerships as an equivalent. Sad but true. There is no way to prove the claim a lot of stamps or covers is unsorted--so take for granted it has been looked over, buy it if the lot is of worth to you.
Bruce
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Good stuff, guys! Thanks!!
It doesn't really sound like things have changed that much from the late 60's to mid 70's. I may have to give 1 or 2 larger lots a try, just to see if I can get lucky. I found an occasional extra nice stamp in those lots back then. I'll try a couple of different sources just to shake it up a bit.
Much appreciated,
WB
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No more mixtures for me ever.... just opened yet another bunch of dusty worldwide difinitives from the 70s and 80s in which many are damaged. Straight to the Holocaust Project. Waste of time, energy and money.
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I've noticed that a lot of kiloware for sale says "No unfranked". Therefore in my mind it has been picked through. However I sometimes buy this stuff from a particular source as I have found one or two good items. eg Imperforate Machin NVI. The guy obviously picks out the unfranked and has no clue about the rest.
"Unsorted" is like going to an auction looking through a box of albums to be faced with hinge remains on every other page. Disappointing!
"Charity collected, unsorted" can be just as hit and miss. Who gives 1d Blacks and 2d Blues on a regular basis to charities?? No one. OK you MAY get up to date commemmoratives, but you are more likely to get someone elses dross from the 80's & 90's.
I shall now go and cry into my handkerchief and have a drink from my half empty bottle of vodka. Boo Hoo!
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On the bright side, after finishing his 1/2 empty bottle (size conveniently not mentioned) I am sure Ian is "well sorted".
Dave 
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among the great benefits of the Holocaust project (the one in Massachusetts, not the European one of 70 years ago) is the removal of damaged stamps from the stream.... no one will ever confront that torn corner again.... and it's the best form of recycling: reuse.... plus, it keeps that awful human trait in our conversation.
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When it comes to buying large lots of stamps,(say 1000+) just how unsorted do you think "unsorted" really is?
In my earlier days of collecting, I assumed that the term meant there was a reasonable chance of finding a true gem or two in the mix. Now I'm not so sure. It's hard for me to believe that anyone would just pack stamps in large packets without at least making sure there wasn't an easily spotted high value stamp in the bunch.
I haven't purchased one of these commercial lots in a number of years, but rather, have stuck to smaller lots or singles that I knew would fill a hole or at least upgrade a stamp I already had.
Just interested as to how others feel about it. Do large lots and kiloware commonly yield a few really good stamps or are they just a suckers bet full of mundane issues and mass duplicates? I suppose there is the element of who's selling the lots, but I'm mostly curious about the commercial dealers, rather then the individuals selling off grandpas collection.
WB
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this post
Approvals
re: Unsorted?
I generally buy cover lots and often find cool things in them. Of course what I consider cool, others would just look past. I have found neat things that dealers don't notice too, even on eBay. For instance a dealer was advertising an old postcard for the DPO postmark, and had neglected to notice it was posted on Christmas eve and received on Christmas day. I grabbed that one right up.
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this post
re: Unsorted?
You here of a lot more people that have won the lottery than you do people that have found treasure in so called unpicked lots or kilo ware from dealers. On the other hand mixed world lots at auctions often will have some real goodies. Especially when it comes to subtypes. It really depends on how knowledgeable the auction company is and how many people they have listing lots that are clueless. The best bet you have in getting gems hidden in lots is by educating yourself. Don't buy without pictures.
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re: Unsorted?
True story. Found a full red wheat cent in circulation about two years ago. Would love to hear stories of members finding high value misidentified items in lots.
-Ernie
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this post
re: Unsorted?
I can see where "unpicked" would be the proper term, my choice of words was off. For the sake of this conversation, let us interpret the words as meaning the same thing. I think sellers/dealers use the term "unsorted" somewhat loosely and as often as not, to lead buyers to believe the stamps haven't been searched for high value stamps. It is good to know that at least the occasional find still slips by in the large lots.
BenFranklin, that sounds like a great old cover, congrats!
Antonius, world wide is where I would have the most interest when it comes to the larger lots, so many holes to fill I'm bound to find a few in the pile. I have many holes yet to fill for U.S. also, but am far enough along now, that I prefer to buy short lots or singles that I know I need. The problem with 1000+ lots and even bigger kilo ware lots, is that pics usually consist of a big pile and the phrase "pic shows a sample of what you MAY/MIGHT receive".
Overall, I wouldn't go into the large lots thinking it's going to be a treasure trove, but it would be nice to feel there was at least a chance of finding the occasional "over the top" stamp.
WB
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re: Unsorted?
"Found a full red wheat cent in circulation"
Ernie, there are alot of them still in circulation. Saw them all the time when breaking bank rolls of cents. Can still find silver coinage as well, though that is relatively scarce to do.
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re: Unsorted?
I had the experience of picking over one of these lots long ago of some Great Britan stamps which had many duplicates. What I was looking for were various perfs and water marks. Found the right perf listed at $0.65 and checked the water mark and BINGO it had an odd wm worth $65.00.
And thats the fun of going through unsorted stuff.
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re: Unsorted?
WhiteBuffalo, Probably the best place to find 19th century higher U.S. values is from German auction houses. High values were mostly used on mail going out of the country.
Also Germany probably has the highest concentration of stamp collectors. I have found many super deals in mixed lots from there. Conversely the U.S. is probably the worst place to find great deals on U.S. material.
Are you in the K.C. area?
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re: Unsorted?
Mr. Bridges, that's another one of those finds that I was wondering if still exists in today's super lots. Congrats on a nice find!!
Antonious, I'll check out the German markets and no, I'm about as far south as you can get without being in Arkansas.
Thanks for the comments, conversation and advice, folks!
WB
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04:56:49pm
re: Unsorted?
Unsorted and unpicked are usually "recycled". This however does not mean that interesting, (but not necessarily valuable) stuff is not there.
Obviously high value stuff is usually removed at source,leaving the general left.Someone buys the stuff, removes what they want,combines it with other remainders and passes it on, when it gets new stuff added and is passed on and on.
What is important buying mixed lots is that you vary the source. In the days when I bought kiloware,I seldom bought the same mixture from the same supplier. They buy wholesale in large quantities and so until that consignment is sold you get more of the same. However a different supplier may use a different wholesaler, so the content can be different - or buy a different mix of countries. In my experience, (oversimplyfying of course) kiloware or on paper mixtures contains more recent stamps than off-paper mixtures, but off-paper mixtures often contain damaged or generally grotty stamps as the best quality has been filtered out earlier in the supply chain. Mixtures purchased from dealers as original source often only have the obvious gems removed as they do not have the time to "flyspeck" every stamp, while collector material is usually more varied but has been closely examined. Collection remainders, which you know have had all the valuable items removed usually provides the biggest selections of cheap-value stamps -but these are now becoming more expensive than hitherto.
You pays your money and takes your choice, and while returns have been across the board from indifferent to very good, I can honestly say that I have never had a lot that I thought to be a waste of money. Even the indifferent lots have provided material for trading, where the total haul has been improved beyond the value of the original lot.It is also important to note that many minimum catalogue value stamps are actually quite elusive and almost never turn up in mixtures or collections.
I have not purchased kiloware or mixtures for some years now as I am still processing boxes of it ( now I finally have some time). Certainly GB kiloware must be very difficult due to the huge numbers of 2nd blue and 1st red NVI stamps present.
This sort of material is good for the general collector, provided that your expectations are realistic.
Malcolm
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06:07:09pm
re: Unsorted?
Unsorted is probably for the most part a marketing term intended to pull in buyers who have hope that the lot is indeed unsorted--whatever that really means. However, there is always the possibility, slim, but a possibility exists that something of interest will be found, particularly if one collects items that are not normally collected by most people--no dealer can know every rare stamp variation or esoteric usage on a cover, etc.
I remember years ago, a national television program sent out hidden camera reporters to 10 or so "reputable" Washington D.C. antique dealers. The reporter brought with them a very very valuable antique. If memory is correct, 9 out of the 10 antique dealers when queried about the antique's value stated that the very rare item was common and worth very little. All 9 offered to buy the item of course for a significantly small sum. The one honest dealer stated its true value--too rich for his blood. The fun part was when the reporter returned with visible cameraman in tow filming the various reactions.
I kind of view the unsorted claims in their many variations among the philatelic dealerships as an equivalent. Sad but true. There is no way to prove the claim a lot of stamps or covers is unsorted--so take for granted it has been looked over, buy it if the lot is of worth to you.
Bruce
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re: Unsorted?
Good stuff, guys! Thanks!!
It doesn't really sound like things have changed that much from the late 60's to mid 70's. I may have to give 1 or 2 larger lots a try, just to see if I can get lucky. I found an occasional extra nice stamp in those lots back then. I'll try a couple of different sources just to shake it up a bit.
Much appreciated,
WB
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this post
re: Unsorted?
No more mixtures for me ever.... just opened yet another bunch of dusty worldwide difinitives from the 70s and 80s in which many are damaged. Straight to the Holocaust Project. Waste of time, energy and money.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Unsorted?
I've noticed that a lot of kiloware for sale says "No unfranked". Therefore in my mind it has been picked through. However I sometimes buy this stuff from a particular source as I have found one or two good items. eg Imperforate Machin NVI. The guy obviously picks out the unfranked and has no clue about the rest.
"Unsorted" is like going to an auction looking through a box of albums to be faced with hinge remains on every other page. Disappointing!
"Charity collected, unsorted" can be just as hit and miss. Who gives 1d Blacks and 2d Blues on a regular basis to charities?? No one. OK you MAY get up to date commemmoratives, but you are more likely to get someone elses dross from the 80's & 90's.
I shall now go and cry into my handkerchief and have a drink from my half empty bottle of vodka. Boo Hoo!
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re: Unsorted?
On the bright side, after finishing his 1/2 empty bottle (size conveniently not mentioned) I am sure Ian is "well sorted".
Dave
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Auctions
re: Unsorted?
among the great benefits of the Holocaust project (the one in Massachusetts, not the European one of 70 years ago) is the removal of damaged stamps from the stream.... no one will ever confront that torn corner again.... and it's the best form of recycling: reuse.... plus, it keeps that awful human trait in our conversation.
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