Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Unexpected.
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And also found this fake of the flag & liberty issue;
Unlike the pair above, I'm not sure if this one actually was postally used as there isn't a visible cancel.
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Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
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Nice flyspecking-very interesting-thanks for the posting
Dan C.
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Makes Kiloware interesting. Thanks for posting that Teresa!
-Ernie
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If someone has a 2016 USA specialized, would you kindly check the counterfeit section for me? There is a note in the 2015 specialized saying that the editors would like to examine copies of any four flag issue forgeries such as the one above. If they are listed in the 2016 catalog, then others have submitted copies and sending another to them would be unnecessary. Thanks so much!
The statue of liberty and flag issue forgeries are listed in the 2015 catalog.
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Philatelia:
We have one at the shop. I'll check Tuesday and report back to you.
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada
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Thank you so much!!! Super appreciated! 
I'm really curious to see if others have been found - I'm sure they have, but you never know!
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If these stamps were off-piece, I'd wonder if you'd soaked them in bleach or ammonia 
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LOL no bleach or ammonia, especially no bleach and ammonia mixed together. Whew! I'm ditzy enough without the fumes 
haha!!! Just wondering - did you think that because they look blurry? They are cheesy counterfeits that's for sure. They can't hold a candle to the really crafty forgeries of days gone by.
Actually didn't Michael#s recommend ammonia (with cautions) for foxing recently?
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"... They can't hold a candle to the really crafty forgeries of days gone by ..."
I would look for a big difference between forgeries good enough to pass a clerk busily sorting mail, and forgeries for collectors.
Michael#s was posting about applying ammonia for 30 seconds, and even that was a limited sample (a few engraved stamps) with no long-term followup. I keyed the word "soaking".
I wondered about ill treatment, rather than forgery, precisely because it would be so easy to do a better job of forgery.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Theresa, check for the secret marks, if they are not there I'll be suspicious. Keep in mind that these stamps were printed by three, four or maybe five different printers with some issues real sharp and other so lousily printed that like you say they look like forgeries.
Tony
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Theresa,
No examples in 2016 Specialized - just a note that editors would like to examine examples.
Lars
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Thanks, Lars! I'll send in a scan to the editors.
Also, thanks for the tip, Tony, but I checked with a 30X loupe and there is no microprinting on any of the copies that I found. One quick peek at that magnification and it is super obvious how much they differ from the genuine issues. I probably should have used a higher res for the scan that I uploaded above. I'm not as skilled with the scanner as are some of our talented members.
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Then it must be a counterfeit (not to be confused with a forgery in the philatelic sense). What an interesting find!
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Fascinating - I've never hear that the terms forgery and counterfeit couldn't be used interchangeably. When does a counterfeit become a forgery? Is that term only applied to stamps that have been engraved and not just photocopied?
It is so cool to learn these little tidbits!
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Although the terms are often used interchangeably in general discourse, within philately forgeries are stamps created to defraud collectors, whereas counterfeits are stamps created to defraud governments. Following this distinction of intention, forgeries mimic rare, expensive stamps, and counterfeits mimic common, inexpensive stamps. Forgeries are made individually or in very small quantity; counterfeits are produced in bulk.
An example of the former is the famous Sperati forgery of US Scott #2, shown to the right of the genuine item:
Sperati often used heavy cancellations to hide his technical flaws of forgery.
Here is an example of a genuine US Scott #1394 (left) vs. a counterfeit stamp (right):
Aside from the obvious lack of perforations (which the fraudster hoped would go unnoticed through the mail), "EISENHOWER" is of inferior execution.
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Here is another example of a counterfeit. A genuine Scott 1393 is on the left; a counterfeit is on the right:
The latter stamp is of coarser design, something that could be easily missed in the mail. Counterfeits are produced in bulk and used postally to avoid payment of services.
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Aha! The differences are subtle, but your explanation is quite excellent.
Thank you so much for taking the time to upload these images! Are these scans from your collection - I mean do you actively collect counterfeits? The Eisenhowers are much better quality fakes than the ones I found and would probably be tougher to catch, don't you agree?
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And along comes an article in Linn's about the impact of the moisture content of paper on the quality of printing:
Linn's ... Liberty series $1 Patrick Henry comes ‘wet’ and ‘dry’
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I don't follow - how do wet and dry printings relate to counterfeit definitives?
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Philatelia:
There are no new, post-2010, additions in the 2016 US Scott specialised Catalogue regarding the postal counterfeits. Here is newest version of the rquest regarding the Four Flags issue:
"The editors have reports that counterfeits have appeared of the Sennett-printed Four Flags Forever coils (Nos. 4637-4640). They reportedly have no plate numbers and have no evidence of the tabs at the top and/or bottom that hold the coil rolls together in sticks. The paper is whiter and shinier than the genuine, but the microprinted 'USPS' at the top right of the lower red stripe is indistinct.
The editors would like to examine such counterfeits before listing them."
I hope this helps!
Remember that many postal counterfeits have been discovered by stamp collectors, as we closely examine our stamps.
Cheers!
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Ont. Canada
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Very cool! I'll have to contact them and see if the editors are interested in the stamp. Well wouldn't it be neat if my stamp from the junk box ends up in the catalog????? It just goes to show that you never know what you'll find in a box of stamps - one of the great joys of collecting.
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Philatelia,
"Thank you so much for taking the time to upload these images! Are these scans from your collection - I mean do you actively collect counterfeits?"
I don't have these stamps in my collection. These are examples commonly found on the Web. I do intend to start collecting forgeries and counterfeits someday when my current collecting goals are met, which I estimate will be in three to five years. Some forgeries are so famous and of such technical skill (albeit to base purpose) that they are now actually more expensive than the genuine articles they sought to mimic. A wonderful book on this subject is Philatelic Forgers: Their Lives and Works, by Varro E. Tyler.
"The Eisenhowers are much better quality fakes than the ones I found and would probably be tougher to catch, don't you agree?"
I think the Eisenhowers were of higher quality because they needed be of higher quality back then. After all, the genuine stamps themselves were of higher quality: intaglio vs offset printing, etc.
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"Well wouldn't it be neat if my stamp from the junk box ends up in the catalog????? It just goes to show that you never know what you'll find in a box of stamps - one of the great joys of collecting."
Absolutely neat!
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I believe I've read excerpts from Tyler's book - fascinating stories full of drama and intrigue. Fun stuff! Wouldn't it be a delight to find one of the famous forgeries in a dusty old album somewhere? -sigh- typical stamp collector's daydream!
I really appreciate that you took all the time to upload those scans - that was really thoughtful. I actually found a few extra counterfeits of the flag from the 2010 flag & liberty issue, and, if you would like, I could send one to you and that could be one of the seeds for your future forgeries and fakes collection. One kindness deserves another!
Send me a private message with your snail mail and I'll send one to you.
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Nicely done Theresa!
I was wondering if the perforations were correct on the forgery? It always seemed like that would be the hard part to get right.
WB
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Thanks WB!!!
Please look for a post under the contests topic for a chance to win one. I have an extra I'm going to "raffle" to a member here in Stamporama. See the post for details.
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"Forgeries are made individually or in very small quantity; counterfeits are produced in bulk."
Douglas' differentiation between forgeries and counterfeits is spot on, and the above statement is generally true, however, there are examples of counterfeits not created in bulk. A wonderful example is one actually drawn on the cover. I can't find an image, but I remember seeing an example of US Scott #1213 drawn in pencil on cover that supposedly made it through the mailstream. That was a singular example.
Another term not to be confused with the above is "fake". There are differing opinions, but in my view:
1. A forgery is as Douglas said - created to fool collectors,
2. A counterfeit is as Douglas said - created to defraud the government.
Both are completely manufactured from scratch.
3. A fake is an authentic stamp altered to appear as a more valuable variety. Most commonly trimming perfs to simulate a coil, removing all perfs to simulate an imperf, regumming a stamp, etc.
Lars
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Found a few forgeries in kiloware. I believe the pair on the right are forged - both are very grainy and are missing the microprinting. Color is off, too. Has anyone else found any of these?
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Unexpected.
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
And also found this fake of the flag & liberty issue;
Unlike the pair above, I'm not sure if this one actually was postally used as there isn't a visible cancel.
4 Members
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Nice flyspecking-very interesting-thanks for the posting
Dan C.
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Makes Kiloware interesting. Thanks for posting that Teresa!
-Ernie
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
If someone has a 2016 USA specialized, would you kindly check the counterfeit section for me? There is a note in the 2015 specialized saying that the editors would like to examine copies of any four flag issue forgeries such as the one above. If they are listed in the 2016 catalog, then others have submitted copies and sending another to them would be unnecessary. Thanks so much!
The statue of liberty and flag issue forgeries are listed in the 2015 catalog.
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Philatelia:
We have one at the shop. I'll check Tuesday and report back to you.
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada
1 Member
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Thank you so much!!! Super appreciated! I'm really curious to see if others have been found - I'm sure they have, but you never know!
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this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
If these stamps were off-piece, I'd wonder if you'd soaked them in bleach or ammonia
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
LOL no bleach or ammonia, especially no bleach and ammonia mixed together. Whew! I'm ditzy enough without the fumes haha!!! Just wondering - did you think that because they look blurry? They are cheesy counterfeits that's for sure. They can't hold a candle to the really crafty forgeries of days gone by.
Actually didn't Michael#s recommend ammonia (with cautions) for foxing recently?
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this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
"... They can't hold a candle to the really crafty forgeries of days gone by ..."
I would look for a big difference between forgeries good enough to pass a clerk busily sorting mail, and forgeries for collectors.
Michael#s was posting about applying ammonia for 30 seconds, and even that was a limited sample (a few engraved stamps) with no long-term followup. I keyed the word "soaking".
I wondered about ill treatment, rather than forgery, precisely because it would be so easy to do a better job of forgery.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Theresa, check for the secret marks, if they are not there I'll be suspicious. Keep in mind that these stamps were printed by three, four or maybe five different printers with some issues real sharp and other so lousily printed that like you say they look like forgeries.
Tony
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Theresa,
No examples in 2016 Specialized - just a note that editors would like to examine examples.
Lars
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Thanks, Lars! I'll send in a scan to the editors.
Also, thanks for the tip, Tony, but I checked with a 30X loupe and there is no microprinting on any of the copies that I found. One quick peek at that magnification and it is super obvious how much they differ from the genuine issues. I probably should have used a higher res for the scan that I uploaded above. I'm not as skilled with the scanner as are some of our talented members.
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this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Then it must be a counterfeit (not to be confused with a forgery in the philatelic sense). What an interesting find!
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Fascinating - I've never hear that the terms forgery and counterfeit couldn't be used interchangeably. When does a counterfeit become a forgery? Is that term only applied to stamps that have been engraved and not just photocopied?
It is so cool to learn these little tidbits!
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Although the terms are often used interchangeably in general discourse, within philately forgeries are stamps created to defraud collectors, whereas counterfeits are stamps created to defraud governments. Following this distinction of intention, forgeries mimic rare, expensive stamps, and counterfeits mimic common, inexpensive stamps. Forgeries are made individually or in very small quantity; counterfeits are produced in bulk.
An example of the former is the famous Sperati forgery of US Scott #2, shown to the right of the genuine item:
Sperati often used heavy cancellations to hide his technical flaws of forgery.
Here is an example of a genuine US Scott #1394 (left) vs. a counterfeit stamp (right):
Aside from the obvious lack of perforations (which the fraudster hoped would go unnoticed through the mail), "EISENHOWER" is of inferior execution.
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this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Here is another example of a counterfeit. A genuine Scott 1393 is on the left; a counterfeit is on the right:
The latter stamp is of coarser design, something that could be easily missed in the mail. Counterfeits are produced in bulk and used postally to avoid payment of services.
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Aha! The differences are subtle, but your explanation is quite excellent.
Thank you so much for taking the time to upload these images! Are these scans from your collection - I mean do you actively collect counterfeits? The Eisenhowers are much better quality fakes than the ones I found and would probably be tougher to catch, don't you agree?
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
And along comes an article in Linn's about the impact of the moisture content of paper on the quality of printing:
Linn's ... Liberty series $1 Patrick Henry comes ‘wet’ and ‘dry’
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
I don't follow - how do wet and dry printings relate to counterfeit definitives?
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Philatelia:
There are no new, post-2010, additions in the 2016 US Scott specialised Catalogue regarding the postal counterfeits. Here is newest version of the rquest regarding the Four Flags issue:
"The editors have reports that counterfeits have appeared of the Sennett-printed Four Flags Forever coils (Nos. 4637-4640). They reportedly have no plate numbers and have no evidence of the tabs at the top and/or bottom that hold the coil rolls together in sticks. The paper is whiter and shinier than the genuine, but the microprinted 'USPS' at the top right of the lower red stripe is indistinct.
The editors would like to examine such counterfeits before listing them."
I hope this helps!
Remember that many postal counterfeits have been discovered by stamp collectors, as we closely examine our stamps.
Cheers!
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Ont. Canada
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Very cool! I'll have to contact them and see if the editors are interested in the stamp. Well wouldn't it be neat if my stamp from the junk box ends up in the catalog????? It just goes to show that you never know what you'll find in a box of stamps - one of the great joys of collecting.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Philatelia,
"Thank you so much for taking the time to upload these images! Are these scans from your collection - I mean do you actively collect counterfeits?"
I don't have these stamps in my collection. These are examples commonly found on the Web. I do intend to start collecting forgeries and counterfeits someday when my current collecting goals are met, which I estimate will be in three to five years. Some forgeries are so famous and of such technical skill (albeit to base purpose) that they are now actually more expensive than the genuine articles they sought to mimic. A wonderful book on this subject is Philatelic Forgers: Their Lives and Works, by Varro E. Tyler.
"The Eisenhowers are much better quality fakes than the ones I found and would probably be tougher to catch, don't you agree?"
I think the Eisenhowers were of higher quality because they needed be of higher quality back then. After all, the genuine stamps themselves were of higher quality: intaglio vs offset printing, etc.
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
"Well wouldn't it be neat if my stamp from the junk box ends up in the catalog????? It just goes to show that you never know what you'll find in a box of stamps - one of the great joys of collecting."
Absolutely neat!
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
I believe I've read excerpts from Tyler's book - fascinating stories full of drama and intrigue. Fun stuff! Wouldn't it be a delight to find one of the famous forgeries in a dusty old album somewhere? -sigh- typical stamp collector's daydream!
I really appreciate that you took all the time to upload those scans - that was really thoughtful. I actually found a few extra counterfeits of the flag from the 2010 flag & liberty issue, and, if you would like, I could send one to you and that could be one of the seeds for your future forgeries and fakes collection. One kindness deserves another!
Send me a private message with your snail mail and I'll send one to you.
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Nicely done Theresa!
I was wondering if the perforations were correct on the forgery? It always seemed like that would be the hard part to get right.
WB
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re: USA - Recent Forgeries
Thanks WB!!!
Please look for a post under the contests topic for a chance to win one. I have an extra I'm going to "raffle" to a member here in Stamporama. See the post for details.
Login to Like
this post
re: USA - Recent Forgeries
"Forgeries are made individually or in very small quantity; counterfeits are produced in bulk."
Douglas' differentiation between forgeries and counterfeits is spot on, and the above statement is generally true, however, there are examples of counterfeits not created in bulk. A wonderful example is one actually drawn on the cover. I can't find an image, but I remember seeing an example of US Scott #1213 drawn in pencil on cover that supposedly made it through the mailstream. That was a singular example.
Another term not to be confused with the above is "fake". There are differing opinions, but in my view:
1. A forgery is as Douglas said - created to fool collectors,
2. A counterfeit is as Douglas said - created to defraud the government.
Both are completely manufactured from scratch.
3. A fake is an authentic stamp altered to appear as a more valuable variety. Most commonly trimming perfs to simulate a coil, removing all perfs to simulate an imperf, regumming a stamp, etc.
Lars
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