Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Like the 8.4 cent Wheel Chair coils.
Dave
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Sorry but that is not legal. Wish it were as I have a pile of them.
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the short answer is YES and NO. the longer answer is: with conditions
anyone CAN use non-profit and other service-inscribed stamps for first class mail IF they follow the rules:
fill out form 3615 and deposit at the post office
affix sufficient stammps to cover first class
write FIRST CLASS on the envelope
hand to the clerk at THAT PO and let them know there's a form 3615 on file
have them hand cancel it so that others down the stream aren't confused. you could even ask for a zero meter
there you go
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I'm not sure if the rules have changed, but I was required to get a precancel permit and had to get a rubber stamp with my permit number. Each mailing had to be stamped so that my permit number was on the envelope.
Here's a scan of the stamp;
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Thwe rules haven't changed. It is not required to state that you have a permit or include the permit numbers. If you have the permit, as David said, you do have to write "FIRST CLASS", and that has to be positioned directly to the left of the stamps, and the mail has to be handed to a clerk at the post office where the permit was issued.
Theresa's comment about being required to add all the additional information is not a bad idea to do anyway. I always add that extra information, "FIRST CLASS MAILER PERMIT #XX". You just never know who in the postal chain where the mail travels might hick-up and return the envelope back to the sender. It's a good idea to do this. I like the idea of the rubber stamp. I just may get one made. Well, I'd have to get two of them for the two post offices where I have these permits issued from.
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So true, Michael, it is absolutely worth it to get the rubber stamp. Makes it "idiot proof." All the covers that were stamped never had any problems.
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I have been using these types of stamps for quite a while, just by printing "First class postage paid", usually below the stamps. I have never taken an envelope to the PO to mail it either, just put it in my mail box at the curb. In fact, one of the buyers of my lots took his cover, with all of the cancelled stamps, to his stamp club and sold it for $5 to another member. The biggest problem using those stamps is trying to make the total of the stamps exactly the amount of the postage, especially if you use the smaller value stamps. I try to place them in groups, or blocks of four, because if my regular mail lady is working that day, she will hand cancel them when she gets back to the PO.
Mike
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"... I have never taken an envelope to the PO to mail it either, just put it in my mail box at the curb ..."
Count on indifference to make a difference.
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Having worked for the USPS, I learned quickly that postal investigators have no sense of humour. I would never want to get on their bad side. If you are not a non profit organization then even applying for the permit under false pretenses is breaking federal law and tempting their wrath, much less using it. Personally, it isn't worth it to me for a few bucks worth of postage.
Something most people do not know is that there is a constant state of uneasiness in the larger post offices. There are corridors that run through the outer walls where the investigators can sit and watch employees for any mis-doings. They enter these corridors from outside doors so no one including the Postmaster ever know whether they are there or not.
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When I applied for my permit, I was avidly collect Plate Number coils. As they were sold in strips of 25 or more and I only wanted a strip of 5 or 7, I was left with lots of unused stamps. My local postmaster assured me that it was perfectly legal for me to get a permit to use the remainder of the stamps on first class mailings as long as I filled out the proper form and noted such on the covers near the applied postage. She recommended the rubber stamp as an aide to legibility.
I'm sure that you're absolutely correct that it would be illegal to try to pay the non-profit rate for mailings. Using them for full first class rate is another kettle of fish. Funny thing is that with the decimal values on some issues, I usually ended up giving the post office a bit over the rate, so they got a wee bit of "tip". I had a ton of fun with the permit making up some unusual covers and the local clerks got a kick out of some of the mail I handed over. They were sure good folks up there in that small town post office. I do miss them! 
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Sorry, misunderstood. I thought you were applying for non-profit status and using current non profit rates for mailings. Should have read the posts better. Once I have something in my head it's hard to see anything else.
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Mitch, glad you saw what Teresa was saying... Noting the utility of a rubber stamp to make first class discount rate stamps more evident to carriers, not any attempt to acquire or misuse non-profit rates.
David
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Yea, postal folks are clueless. A few weeks ago I handed over a couple of envelopes I had franked with a variety of older commemoratives, 10 centers down to 3 centers to make up the 49 cents. The clerk looked at it and asked, "Are these all stamps?" I assured him that they were and valid for postage. He then started to count them and stopped and asked, "it all adds up right?" I replied, "Yes" and that seemed to be good enough for him.
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A few things:
1) Don't expect the folks at a small PO to know this reg. It helps to take a copy with you to get the permit (I have Permit #1 at my local PO, so it's a bit of an oddity in a small town).
2) The rubber stamp Theresa mentions is a good idea if you do a lot of these. I used them infrequently and found that writing "FIRST CLASS MAIL" in red ink was sufficient.
3) I also included my permit number at the bottom of the envelope.
4) You can use them for Media Mail or Parcel Post or Priority Mail as long as the class of service is properly indicated.
5) Getting a zero value PVI is a good idea (a meter strip for $0.00), especially if it isn't just a First Class letter. I ask for that for any complicated decorated covers so everyone downstream knows SOMEBODY already did the math. (Leave a space at top right for the PVI).
6) The bulk rate stamps don't HAVE to add up to EXACTLY the proper amount. It can be a bit more. Let's say you have a hoard of 16.7 cent Popcorn Wagon Transportation coils (for some reason). You would be VERY lucky to get 75% of face value for them, but you could put 3 on a first class envelope and mail it if you had the permit. That's 50.1 cents of postage, so you "wasted" 1.1 pennies, but that's probably your best option to use them up.
7) The regs are fairly clear that you are to produce your item, in person, at the window of the PO that issued your permit. (I took my copy of the permit with me for a while). If you can get a carrier to take it from your mailbox, good for you, but don't count on that.
Lars
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"Yea, postal folks are clueless."
That is using a fairly broad brush.
"A few weeks ago I handed over a couple of envelopes I had franked with a variety of older commemoratives, 10 centers down to 3 centers to make up the 49 cents. The clerk looked at it and asked, "Are these all stamps?" I assured him that they were and valid for postage. He then started to count them and stopped and asked, "it all adds up right?" I replied, "Yes" and that seemed to be good enough for him."
I had one clerk that LOVED the challenge! If I brought in letter stamps (A, B, C, etc.), he would proudly whip out his reference chart. Another liked to "audit". She would randomly pick a few and use a calculator to verify that I was right. Eventually I earned a reputation of ALWAYS being right, and eventually the more senior clerks would tell the new hires to not waste their time. Just postmark my stuff and move on. That's a reputation worth having, but you have to earn it and it won't always be granted (even if you deserve it).
My favorite clerk is now retired, but at first when she saw I was coming to her window she would roll her eyes and say, "Not another math quiz!" After several years and several checks (where the postage was ALWAYS right) she would just look over the tops of her bi-focals and ask, "This is all right, isn't it?" and I would tell her what I THOUGHT it weighed and how much postage I put on it. She could then verify that the weight was correct and happily hit the item confidently with her CDS. If the weight was borderline I always brought proper additional postage (or cash) and let them know the weight was right on the edge.
They have a job to do and if you respect that you can often get positive results. But there are always a few in ANY profession that can make things challenging.
Lars
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I always write the amount of franking in the upper right corner of the package/envelope. Like you, at first they counted to make sure, but now they know I'm right unless I tell them that I'm not sure like when the stupid envelope sits on the line. If it picks up some humidity, there goes the next ounce fee!
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01:23:42pm
".... He then started to count them and stopped and asked, "it all adds up right?" I replied, "Yes" and that seemed to be good enough for him. ..."
Like Michael I often note not just the total but the breakdown as on a recent letter to British Columbia;
4 x 29¢ = $1.16
2 x 2¢ = 0.04
Total $1.20
While I'd never say all postal clerks are clueless, there are enough that are innumerate to justify that feeling.
But sit tight, eventually between the New Math and the Common Core instruction procedure they will all be able to and whole numbers and fractions, Hallelujah, (say Amen)
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I would suggest to NEVER use this method for critical mailings. All it takes is for one postal worker to be both observant and ignorant at the same time, to cause the mailing to be delayed, hang in limbo, get sent back to you or worse -- tossed in the trash.
Many years ago, I got stuck at the post office for 30 minutes trying to explain the rules to a postal worker with a chip on their shoulder, compounded by a new station manager. The clerk was angry because she couldn't find her calculator and wouldn't take my word for it that the stamps added up to the correct amount. That's when she challenged me on the legality of using the stamps. I pointed out that I had done this in the past at this post office without problems. To which she replied "Not through Ms. (her name withheld) you didn't." I asked for the station manager. I had to wait for the station manager to call his superior to confirm. He came to the clerk and me, and said, "Wow, they recently introduced this new rule..." I just kept my mouth shut to give them both face. The clerk wasn't happy, but I'm sure she was consoled by the fact that she didn't have to wait on anybody for 30 minutes. Or maybe she was additionally annoyed because she had to wait on the station manager instead of making people wait on her (the clerks at this post office had a reputation at that time: time chatting with other clerks >> time actually spent with customer).
Imagine what might have happened if I wasn't there. From that day on, I never used pre-canceled postage on any time-sensitive or non-replaceable mailing. I still use pre-canceled postage at that post office (those clerks and station manager are long gone), but won't use it for critical mailing anywhere.
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I should add to Kim's warning about using service-inscribed or precancelled stamps that because many of them are not tagged, they go outside the speedy automation stream and, even without the eagle-eyed-but-ignorant clerk/carrier/data entrerererer, there's a good chance that it gets delayed just because it's outside the usual stream of things. Of course, using 49 1c stamps would have the same result. and require a calculator or five clerks (to supply the requisite 49 fingers and thumbs).
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Good point, David. I always make sure I have at least one tagged stamp on all my mailings, even ones using normal postage, as many of the pre-5c commemoratives and modern below postcard rate definitives lack the tagging.
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Interesting thread. I've thought about getting some unused older commemoratives for my stamp related mail. I did not think about tagging. For critical stuff, (those few bill I still pay by mail) I always use a recent Forever commemorative (the Hudson River School series is wonderful).
My experience with the local PO is mixed. One clerk recently retired and he was helpful. The rest, only so-so. I sent a Priority Box out a few weeks ago but needed $5 more in postage - the guy seemed annoyed that I asked for a postage stamp! Oh well...
Geoff
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08:50:39pm
" ... I always make sure I have at least one tagged stamp on all my mailings, ..."
On many of our newer stamp sheets the selvage is tagged so I frequently place a small strip of selvage along the top of right edge. I am not sure it helps but the mail gets through.
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04:10:40pm
Can I use stamps imprinted with Nonprofit on first class mailings if they add up to 49cents?
Like the 8.4 cent Wheel Chair coils.
Dave
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Sorry but that is not legal. Wish it were as I have a pile of them.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
the short answer is YES and NO. the longer answer is: with conditions
anyone CAN use non-profit and other service-inscribed stamps for first class mail IF they follow the rules:
fill out form 3615 and deposit at the post office
affix sufficient stammps to cover first class
write FIRST CLASS on the envelope
hand to the clerk at THAT PO and let them know there's a form 3615 on file
have them hand cancel it so that others down the stream aren't confused. you could even ask for a zero meter
there you go
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
I'm not sure if the rules have changed, but I was required to get a precancel permit and had to get a rubber stamp with my permit number. Each mailing had to be stamped so that my permit number was on the envelope.
Here's a scan of the stamp;
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Thwe rules haven't changed. It is not required to state that you have a permit or include the permit numbers. If you have the permit, as David said, you do have to write "FIRST CLASS", and that has to be positioned directly to the left of the stamps, and the mail has to be handed to a clerk at the post office where the permit was issued.
Theresa's comment about being required to add all the additional information is not a bad idea to do anyway. I always add that extra information, "FIRST CLASS MAILER PERMIT #XX". You just never know who in the postal chain where the mail travels might hick-up and return the envelope back to the sender. It's a good idea to do this. I like the idea of the rubber stamp. I just may get one made. Well, I'd have to get two of them for the two post offices where I have these permits issued from.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
So true, Michael, it is absolutely worth it to get the rubber stamp. Makes it "idiot proof." All the covers that were stamped never had any problems.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
I have been using these types of stamps for quite a while, just by printing "First class postage paid", usually below the stamps. I have never taken an envelope to the PO to mail it either, just put it in my mail box at the curb. In fact, one of the buyers of my lots took his cover, with all of the cancelled stamps, to his stamp club and sold it for $5 to another member. The biggest problem using those stamps is trying to make the total of the stamps exactly the amount of the postage, especially if you use the smaller value stamps. I try to place them in groups, or blocks of four, because if my regular mail lady is working that day, she will hand cancel them when she gets back to the PO.
Mike
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
"... I have never taken an envelope to the PO to mail it either, just put it in my mail box at the curb ..."
Count on indifference to make a difference.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Having worked for the USPS, I learned quickly that postal investigators have no sense of humour. I would never want to get on their bad side. If you are not a non profit organization then even applying for the permit under false pretenses is breaking federal law and tempting their wrath, much less using it. Personally, it isn't worth it to me for a few bucks worth of postage.
Something most people do not know is that there is a constant state of uneasiness in the larger post offices. There are corridors that run through the outer walls where the investigators can sit and watch employees for any mis-doings. They enter these corridors from outside doors so no one including the Postmaster ever know whether they are there or not.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
When I applied for my permit, I was avidly collect Plate Number coils. As they were sold in strips of 25 or more and I only wanted a strip of 5 or 7, I was left with lots of unused stamps. My local postmaster assured me that it was perfectly legal for me to get a permit to use the remainder of the stamps on first class mailings as long as I filled out the proper form and noted such on the covers near the applied postage. She recommended the rubber stamp as an aide to legibility.
I'm sure that you're absolutely correct that it would be illegal to try to pay the non-profit rate for mailings. Using them for full first class rate is another kettle of fish. Funny thing is that with the decimal values on some issues, I usually ended up giving the post office a bit over the rate, so they got a wee bit of "tip". I had a ton of fun with the permit making up some unusual covers and the local clerks got a kick out of some of the mail I handed over. They were sure good folks up there in that small town post office. I do miss them!
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Sorry, misunderstood. I thought you were applying for non-profit status and using current non profit rates for mailings. Should have read the posts better. Once I have something in my head it's hard to see anything else.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Mitch, glad you saw what Teresa was saying... Noting the utility of a rubber stamp to make first class discount rate stamps more evident to carriers, not any attempt to acquire or misuse non-profit rates.
David
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Yea, postal folks are clueless. A few weeks ago I handed over a couple of envelopes I had franked with a variety of older commemoratives, 10 centers down to 3 centers to make up the 49 cents. The clerk looked at it and asked, "Are these all stamps?" I assured him that they were and valid for postage. He then started to count them and stopped and asked, "it all adds up right?" I replied, "Yes" and that seemed to be good enough for him.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
A few things:
1) Don't expect the folks at a small PO to know this reg. It helps to take a copy with you to get the permit (I have Permit #1 at my local PO, so it's a bit of an oddity in a small town).
2) The rubber stamp Theresa mentions is a good idea if you do a lot of these. I used them infrequently and found that writing "FIRST CLASS MAIL" in red ink was sufficient.
3) I also included my permit number at the bottom of the envelope.
4) You can use them for Media Mail or Parcel Post or Priority Mail as long as the class of service is properly indicated.
5) Getting a zero value PVI is a good idea (a meter strip for $0.00), especially if it isn't just a First Class letter. I ask for that for any complicated decorated covers so everyone downstream knows SOMEBODY already did the math. (Leave a space at top right for the PVI).
6) The bulk rate stamps don't HAVE to add up to EXACTLY the proper amount. It can be a bit more. Let's say you have a hoard of 16.7 cent Popcorn Wagon Transportation coils (for some reason). You would be VERY lucky to get 75% of face value for them, but you could put 3 on a first class envelope and mail it if you had the permit. That's 50.1 cents of postage, so you "wasted" 1.1 pennies, but that's probably your best option to use them up.
7) The regs are fairly clear that you are to produce your item, in person, at the window of the PO that issued your permit. (I took my copy of the permit with me for a while). If you can get a carrier to take it from your mailbox, good for you, but don't count on that.
Lars
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
"Yea, postal folks are clueless."
That is using a fairly broad brush.
"A few weeks ago I handed over a couple of envelopes I had franked with a variety of older commemoratives, 10 centers down to 3 centers to make up the 49 cents. The clerk looked at it and asked, "Are these all stamps?" I assured him that they were and valid for postage. He then started to count them and stopped and asked, "it all adds up right?" I replied, "Yes" and that seemed to be good enough for him."
I had one clerk that LOVED the challenge! If I brought in letter stamps (A, B, C, etc.), he would proudly whip out his reference chart. Another liked to "audit". She would randomly pick a few and use a calculator to verify that I was right. Eventually I earned a reputation of ALWAYS being right, and eventually the more senior clerks would tell the new hires to not waste their time. Just postmark my stuff and move on. That's a reputation worth having, but you have to earn it and it won't always be granted (even if you deserve it).
My favorite clerk is now retired, but at first when she saw I was coming to her window she would roll her eyes and say, "Not another math quiz!" After several years and several checks (where the postage was ALWAYS right) she would just look over the tops of her bi-focals and ask, "This is all right, isn't it?" and I would tell her what I THOUGHT it weighed and how much postage I put on it. She could then verify that the weight was correct and happily hit the item confidently with her CDS. If the weight was borderline I always brought proper additional postage (or cash) and let them know the weight was right on the edge.
They have a job to do and if you respect that you can often get positive results. But there are always a few in ANY profession that can make things challenging.
Lars
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
I always write the amount of franking in the upper right corner of the package/envelope. Like you, at first they counted to make sure, but now they know I'm right unless I tell them that I'm not sure like when the stupid envelope sits on the line. If it picks up some humidity, there goes the next ounce fee!
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
08 Jan 2016
01:23:42pm
re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
".... He then started to count them and stopped and asked, "it all adds up right?" I replied, "Yes" and that seemed to be good enough for him. ..."
Like Michael I often note not just the total but the breakdown as on a recent letter to British Columbia;
4 x 29¢ = $1.16
2 x 2¢ = 0.04
Total $1.20
While I'd never say all postal clerks are clueless, there are enough that are innumerate to justify that feeling.
But sit tight, eventually between the New Math and the Common Core instruction procedure they will all be able to and whole numbers and fractions, Hallelujah, (say Amen)
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
I would suggest to NEVER use this method for critical mailings. All it takes is for one postal worker to be both observant and ignorant at the same time, to cause the mailing to be delayed, hang in limbo, get sent back to you or worse -- tossed in the trash.
Many years ago, I got stuck at the post office for 30 minutes trying to explain the rules to a postal worker with a chip on their shoulder, compounded by a new station manager. The clerk was angry because she couldn't find her calculator and wouldn't take my word for it that the stamps added up to the correct amount. That's when she challenged me on the legality of using the stamps. I pointed out that I had done this in the past at this post office without problems. To which she replied "Not through Ms. (her name withheld) you didn't." I asked for the station manager. I had to wait for the station manager to call his superior to confirm. He came to the clerk and me, and said, "Wow, they recently introduced this new rule..." I just kept my mouth shut to give them both face. The clerk wasn't happy, but I'm sure she was consoled by the fact that she didn't have to wait on anybody for 30 minutes. Or maybe she was additionally annoyed because she had to wait on the station manager instead of making people wait on her (the clerks at this post office had a reputation at that time: time chatting with other clerks >> time actually spent with customer).
Imagine what might have happened if I wasn't there. From that day on, I never used pre-canceled postage on any time-sensitive or non-replaceable mailing. I still use pre-canceled postage at that post office (those clerks and station manager are long gone), but won't use it for critical mailing anywhere.
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
I should add to Kim's warning about using service-inscribed or precancelled stamps that because many of them are not tagged, they go outside the speedy automation stream and, even without the eagle-eyed-but-ignorant clerk/carrier/data entrerererer, there's a good chance that it gets delayed just because it's outside the usual stream of things. Of course, using 49 1c stamps would have the same result. and require a calculator or five clerks (to supply the requisite 49 fingers and thumbs).
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re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Good point, David. I always make sure I have at least one tagged stamp on all my mailings, even ones using normal postage, as many of the pre-5c commemoratives and modern below postcard rate definitives lack the tagging.
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06:36:02pm
re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
Interesting thread. I've thought about getting some unused older commemoratives for my stamp related mail. I did not think about tagging. For critical stuff, (those few bill I still pay by mail) I always use a recent Forever commemorative (the Hudson River School series is wonderful).
My experience with the local PO is mixed. One clerk recently retired and he was helpful. The rest, only so-so. I sent a Priority Box out a few weeks ago but needed $5 more in postage - the guy seemed annoyed that I asked for a postage stamp! Oh well...
Geoff
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
08 Jan 2016
08:50:39pm
re: Non Profit stamps for 1st class mail?
" ... I always make sure I have at least one tagged stamp on all my mailings, ..."
On many of our newer stamp sheets the selvage is tagged so I frequently place a small strip of selvage along the top of right edge. I am not sure it helps but the mail gets through.
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