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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

 

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Bobstamp
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25 Jan 2016
07:45:02pm
I am searching, so far unsuccessfully, for stamps picturing the American M14 rifle (the primary infantry rifle used early in the Vietnam War) and the Soviet-designed AK-47 rifle (used by communist soldiers throughout the Vietnam War and in wide use throughout the world today). If you are aware of any such stamps, please let me know either the Scott or Stanley Gibbons numbers, or both if possible.

Bob
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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Jan 2016
08:43:17pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

do the rifles need to be the sole item on the stamp, or just part of the design?

David

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musicman
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APS #213005

25 Jan 2016
09:18:00pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

#298 & #358


Image Not Found



Are these possible?

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

25 Jan 2016
11:54:36pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

this was pretty informative, although it uses the M14's replacement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16

and, even better and more to what you ask: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu37r-2sfkQ, AK 47/74 vs M14 and M16A1/2

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Jansimon
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26 Jan 2016
04:22:34am

Auctions - Approvals
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Russia issued a Kalashnikov stamp in 2014. It shows the inventor and his invention.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

26 Jan 2016
07:02:46am

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

I believe i have some Iranian covers that feature stamps in which the Kalishnakov is dominant. I'll try to find them, if I still have them.

I can't remember EVER seeing an M14 on a stamp; while being a good rifle, it neither enjoyed much longevity nor great production numbers compared to its predecessor or its successor.

From what little i've read, soldiers still use them in US, but either later sniper variants or as souped up modifieds, and value them tremendously


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Bobstamp
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26 Jan 2016
10:53:27am
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Thanks for your interest, guys. I'll take a look at those links later today.

Nope, Musicman, neither of those rifles is an M14 or an AK-47. Both the M14 and the AK-47 have distinctive shapes.

This is the M-14. One of its distinctive features is the long flash suppressor at the muzzle; the rifle's length was a problem in jungle fighting in Vietnam:

Image Not Found

The AK-47, considerably shorter than the M14, is identifiable by its long, curved magazine, which could hold several more cartridges than the M14, and by the piston tube atop the barrel, part of the mechanism for automatically ejecting spent shell casings and chambering and firing new bullets. The AK-47 was shorter than the M14 and altogether a better weapon for jungle fighting.

Image Not Found

David wanted to know if I was interested in stamps that featured the rifles as their primary design element, or if they could be part of the design. Well, both, actually. I have several North Vietnam stamps and even one South Vietnam stamp which include AK-47s in the hands of soldiers, but no stamps at all that clearly show M14s. I'll post some scans later today.

Bob

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Guthrum
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26 Jan 2016
11:06:42am
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

The Russian stamp of 2014 (SG8093) to which Jansimon refers has a portrait of the recently deceased (12.23.2013) Mikhail Kalashnikov, but the invention itself is silhouetted only faintly in the background (twice, they appear to be identical). You may want a better image if you're illustrating a topical page. I can't post the image here as I have not yet bought the stamp, but it features in a recent edition of the GSM stamp magazine.

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

26 Jan 2016
07:18:54pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob:

Just a note on the AK-47. As a reservist in the Canadian Army, in the 1980s, we were trained on most of the CommBloc weapons. The Chinese SKS, the AK-47, etc. By far, to me, the AK-47 was the most impressive weapon I have ever fired and carried. It can be stripped down with a single round. No combi-tool required like the Canadian FNC1A1 that we used.

David


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Bobstamp
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27 Jan 2016
11:40:55pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

What is it that Homer Simpson says? "D'oh!" I'm saying it too. After I posted my question about stamps picturing the AK-47, I thought, "Bob, did you check your North Vietnam/Vietnam collection?" I was too embarrassed to answer myself, but I did check it. Surprise, surprise! North Vietnam issued several stamps picturing the AK-47!

Here's one, commemorating the 40th anniversary of the beginning of the First Indochina War.

Image Not Found

Here's another, with it twist. It shows an AK-47, a grenade launcher, and...an American M16! The stamp commemorates the 10th anniversary of the communist victory at Dien Bien Phu. I guess the M-16 image could be understood as a boast ("Look, we won the war and used some of their weapons to do it!") or a design by an artist who didn't know one rifle from another:

Image Not Found

And here is a South Vietnam military stamp, issued in 1969, picturing an AK-47. It's a propaganda stamp picturing refugees from North Vietnam being pursued by North Vietnamese soldiers. A million North Vietnamese refugees, primarily Roman Catholics, really did flee North Vietnam in 1954-55, but not necessarily voluntarily. It was largely a result of propaganda by the South Vietnamese government and the CIA. There were cases where Catholic priests ordered entire villages to evacuate. The stamp is surprisingly crude:

Image Not Found

Thanks for the note about the Russian stamp. I'll go searching for a copy.

David G., you're a lucky man to have actually fired an AK-47. I am — moral sin! — envious! In Vietnam, I never saw an AK-47. In fact, I've never seen one. I may have been shot by one, but there is evidence that it was an M14 in the hands of a North Vietnamese soldier.

Bob



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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2016
12:15:37am

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob, your 1985 stamp likely commemorates the fall of SVN, not the victory at Bien Dien Phu. The years match Saigon's fall, not the French defeat. And the M16 didn't exist in 1954, and I don't think it had been introduced to the Battlefield by 1964

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

28 Jan 2016
01:07:05pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob:

I fired an SKS, Tokarev, and a Moisin-Nagant, too. I liked Mother Russia's AK-47. Frankly, I like anything .30 calibre.

I'll e-mail you off-line and we can discuss wound ballistics.

David

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2016
01:56:43pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David,

if you don't include this on the DB, would you send me the conversation; I am interested too

David

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

28 Jan 2016
04:09:09pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David:

I'll have to clear your NATO security clearance with the R.C.M.P., first. Laughing

I'll get you in the loop.

David

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2016
04:15:15pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

don't need no steeenken NATO badgeees

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2016
04:15:56pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

oh, wait, that's our other unsecured border

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

28 Jan 2016
04:19:59pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David:

"Question: Why do we learn how to use CommBloc weapons?"

"Answer: Maybe the Americans aren't our friends."

- Opening statement by the senior officer on the course, 1988 CFB Petawawa.

David

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2016
04:31:48pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David,

wish that were funnier rather than truer, but we Americans see threats everywhere but where they exist

David

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Bobstamp
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28 Jan 2016
07:15:52pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David Teisler wrote, "Bob, your 1985 stamp likely commemorates the fall of SVN, not the victory at Bien Dien Phu."

Thanks for the correction, David. I knew that. I had just turned my brain to its lowest setting before "Off". Big Grin
Here's the same stamp (to save scrolling back):

Image Not Found

And while I'm at it, I goofed on another description, too. This stamp...

Image Not Found

doesn't commemorate the First Indochina War (19 December 1946 —1 August 1954) as I said, but the police force of Vietnam.

Note to self: Check facts, then click on "Submit Message".

Bob

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

28 Jan 2016
07:21:11pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

and thanks for not correcting my dyslexic approach to the battle's site

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

28 Jan 2016
08:34:24pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Gents:

It looks like the first man in that stamp is carrying an American M16.

Thoughts?

David

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pedroguy
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28 Jan 2016
09:50:52pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

" It looks like the first man in that stamp is carrying an American M16."




Good Eye DavidThumbs Up

When I was in Basic early in 1965 we qualified on the rifle range using M1 Carbines, it was like shooting a BB Gun

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

29 Jan 2016
09:02:31am
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Petroguy:

I always wondered what those American M1 Carbines were like!

What is that you are standing beside, in your avatar?

David

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Bobstamp
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29 Jan 2016
12:43:54pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

I've held an M1 Carbine, but never shot one. Marines in the Pacific during the Second World War complained about its insufficient stopping power and penetration.

Back to the AK-47 on stamps, here's one that puzzling me; I'm going blind trying to find it in Scott and in a specialized North Vietnam catalogue I have. Any ideas?

Image Not Found

Bob

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meostamps
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29 Jan 2016
01:42:50pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob, from the catalog database on Colnect:

Vietnam Liberation of Hue
Series:
Victories in Tet offensive 1968
Catalog codes:
Michel VN 584
Issued on:
1969-09-20
Format:
Stamp
Emission:
Commemorative
Perforation:
11
Printing:
Offset lithography
Size:
31 x 46 mm
Face value:
12 Vietnamese xu

Mike in NC / meostamps

PS Bob, a nice thing about using the Colnect database is that one way you can search is by face value. Took me about 3 minutes to find it. www.colnect.com membership is free.

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mbo1142
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

29 Jan 2016
01:49:10pm

Approvals
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

OK guys, I have to defend the M1 Carbine. As an advisor to a Vietnamese Infantry Bn in 1967 we were not given M-16 because the Vietnamese did not have them. I was given a choice of a pistol or a M1 Carbine. I chose the Carbine because I really didn't want the enemy close enough to have to use a pistol. The Carbine was/is .30 caliber and had a folding stock and a large magazine which I taped 2 together. I also tried an M1 rifle, a French MAT 79 (way to heavy) and found that tip-toing through the jungle and rice paddies, the Carbine was the easiest to carry and quickest to use. The M1 Carbine served its purpose very well!! Would I rather have had a tank,Rolling On The Floor Laughing well yes, but not practical.

Mel

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Bobstamp
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29 Jan 2016
10:55:34pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

@Meostamps — Thanks for this information, Mike. I've printed up the basics to include with the stamp in my stock book.

I wonder why it's not included in Scott. Perhaps it was never used postally. It's interesting that the stamp was issued to commemorate the "liberation" of Hue. Unless my history books and hundreds of web sites are wrong, Hue wasn't so much liberated as it was (mostly) occupied temporarily and in the end mostly destroyed as it was taken back by U.S. and ARVN troops. One of my neighbours in our apartment building here in Vancouver was born and grew up in Hue; she doesn't want to talk about the war and especially about what happened to Hue.

@Mel — I'm surprised that the ARVN didn't have M16s since the U.S. Army had been issued with them in 1963, according to Wikipedia. But, then, nothing about the Vietnam War should surprise me.

I found this interesting passage in a book M16, by Gordon Rottman:

Image Not Found

Bob

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meostamps
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30 Jan 2016
08:18:34am
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob, Scott does include it as part of a 5 stamp set, # 552-6, in my 2008 catalog. They list issue date of July 31, 1969. Under the "Republic of N V N" section.

Mike in NC / meostamps

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pedroguy
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30 Jan 2016
07:18:28pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

" What is that you are standing beside, in your avatar?"



That's a 16" Navy Shell, the type used on Battleships, weighs 2750 lbs. The picture was taken at The Fort MacArthur Military Museum here in San Pedro circa 1985.
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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

30 Jan 2016
07:49:12pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Which is usually dramatized as similar to a VW Beetle, filled with explosive hurtling twenty miles through the air. except the VW is not as aerodynamic.

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dollhaus

30 Jan 2016
08:35:11pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Thanks for the info, Bill. I couldn't figure out what that was - it is too big to be 8" gun or 240mm howitzer, or even 280mm howitzer. Didn't think of naval artillery.

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Bobstamp
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30 Jan 2016
10:25:23pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

@Meostamps: OK, Mike, got it! Finally! I sure wish that Scott would include illustrations of all of the face-different stamps. The design of the one stamp they show isn't a lot like the three portrait-format stamps, and those three the Khe Sanh stamp is quite different from the other two.

Image Not Found

Anyway, at least I'm no longer lost!

Bob



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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

31 Jan 2016
08:15:06am
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

"Which is usually dramatized as similar to a VW Beetle, filled with explosive hurtling twenty miles through the air. except the VW is not as aerodynamic."



Interesting. Although, I won't put it in my Volkswagens on Stamps collection! Big Grin

David

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Bobstamp
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31 Jan 2016
02:06:57pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Further to the general topic of the AK-47, I'd like to recommend a Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Gun, by C.J. Chivers.

Image Not Found

Here's the blurb from Amazon:

"In a tour de force, prize-winning New York Times reporter C.J. Chivers traces the invention of the assault rifle, following the miniaturization of rapid-fire arms from the American Civil War, through WWI, Vietnam, to present day Afghanistan when Kalashnikovs and their knock-offs number as many as 100 million, one for every seventy persons on earth."



I'm not a "gun nut" but I grew up with guns and enjoy learning about the politics and technologies of their development. The subject especially interests me given my history in Vietnam, where I was wounded by a modern "battle rifle," most likely an American M14 but possibly an AK-47. One of the interesting things I've learned is that during the Second World War, the Germans and the Soviets figured out long before the Americans and the Brits that smaller-calibre, high-velocity, rapid-fire small arms were more effective on the battlefield than the bigger weapons that had changed little since the late 1800s. They would prove be even more effective than their bigger brethren in the guerrilla wars of the future, which is why the Americans (finally) developed the M16.

Interesting historical fact I learned: General Custer's troops, none of whom survived the massacre at Little Big Horn in 1876, were armed with newly issued single-shot, bolt-action rifles which put them rather at a disadvantage. The reason: the army wanted to save money on cartridges! Also, Custer could have taken rapid-fire Gatling guns with him, but he refused, believing that they would slow the movement of his column of cavalry. Of course, he wasn't around for the sharp criticism his decision received from some quarters. But overall, the army would take decades more to realize the importance of rapid-fire guns.

Bob I.
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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

31 Jan 2016
02:33:18pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

what rifles did the 7th employ in 1876; and were they standard throughout all 10 cavalry regiments?

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

31 Jan 2016
02:36:18pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

i should also add that Chivers is an incredible journalist and writer. I first read him as he followed a platoon of 2/8 Marines in Iraq, and we could see their numbers dwindle in real time; since then, I follow everything he does.

David

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cdj1122
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..

31 Jan 2016
05:02:11pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

" .... The reason: the army wanted to save money on cartridges! ...."

A regular Bob McNamara at the War Department.

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Bobstamp
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31 Jan 2016
10:11:47pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Especially for David T, who asked about the type of rifle Custer's troops were using:

From a History Net web page:

"During the battle, the 7th Cavalry troopers were armed with the Springfield carbine Model 1873 and the Colt Single Action Army revolver Model 1873. Selection of the weapons was the result of much trial and error, plus official testing during 1871/­73. The Ordnance Department staged field trials of 89 rifles and carbines, which included entries from Peabody, Spencer, Freeman, Elliot and Mauser. There were four primary contenders: the Ward-Burton bolt-action rifle; the Remington rolling-block; the ‘trapdoor’ Springfield; and the Sharps, with its vertically sliding breechblock.

Although repeating rifles such as the Spencer, Winchester and Henry had been available, particularly in the post-Civil War years, the Ordnance Department decided to use a single-shot system. It was selected instead of a repeating system because of manufacturing economy, ruggedness, reliability, efficient use of ammunition and similarity to European weapons systems."



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Bobstamp
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31 Jan 2016
10:14:38pm
re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

In case you didn't particularly want to sleep tonight, here's a quote from C.J. Chivers' The Gun:

The Gun by C.J. Chives

"Serious estimates put the number of Kalashnikovs and its derivatives as high as 100 million. There could be one Kalashnikov for every seventy people alive. Where did all these rifles go? Huge numbers filled state arsenals, issued to Eurasian communist armies and stockpiled around the Cold War’s anticipated fronts. Untold millions were sold, others simply given to those thought to need them by the KGB and the Soviet army or their cousins in other communist states. During decades of influence jockeying, the Cold War saw the shipment of enormous quantities of Kalashnikovs to proxy forces, from the Viet Cong to militias in Beirut. Lists resemble tour guides to troubled lands: Russian, Chinese, and North Korean Kalashnikovs were carried by the North Vietnamese Army; Polish Kalashnikovs were shipped to the Contras; East German Kalashnikovs went to Yemen; Romanian AKs armed the Kurds; Russian and Bulgarian AK-47s supplied Rwanda; the United States directed Chinese and Egyptian Kalashnikovs to Afghanistan’s anti-Soviet mujahideen. Chinese Kalashnikovs are abundant in Uganda and Sudan. By the time the Iron Curtain fell, it had become difficult to travel outside Western democracies without seeing Kalashnikovs in some form. There are more Kalashnikovs circulating now than then; when state socialism collapsed, arsenals were looted and weapons locked within were trucked away for sale. For people who study the universe of disorder, automatic Kalashnikovs serve as reasonably reliable units of measure. Arms-control specialists and students of conflict look to the price of Kalashnikov assault to determine both the degree to which destabilized lands are awash in small arms and the state of risk. When prices rise, public anxiety is considered high. When they sink, the decline can indicate a conflict is ebbing. Because there is no surer sign that a country has gone sour than the appearance of Kalashnikovs in the public’s grip, they can also function as an informal social indicator, providing another sort of graduated scale. Anywhere large numbers of young men in civilian clothes or mismatched uniforms are carrying Kalashnikovs is a very good place not to go; when Kalashnikovs turn up in the hands of mobs, it is time to leave.

In the aftermath of the Cold War the overabundance of automatic Kalashnikovs has remained a persistent factor in terrorism, crime, ethnic cleansing, and local and regional destabilization. Their widespread presence empowers unflagged and undisciplined forces to commit human rights abuses on a grander scale, raises the costs and exacerbates the dangers of peacekeeping missions, emboldens criminals of many sorts, stalls economic development, to determine both the degree to which destabilized lands are awash in small arms and the state of risk. When prices rise, public anxiety is considered high. When they sink, the decline can indicate a conflict is ebbing. Because there is no surer sign that a country has gone sour than the appearance of Kalashnikovs in the public’s grip, they can also function as an informal social indicator, providing another sort of graduated scale. Anywhere large numbers of young men in civilian clothes or mismatched uniforms are carrying Kalashnikovs is a very good place not to go; when Kalashnikovs turn up in the hands of mobs, it is time to leave. In the aftermath of the Cold War the overabundance of automatic Kalashnikovs has remained a persistent factor in terrorism, crime, ethnic cleansing, and local and regional destabilization. Their widespread presence empowers unflagged and undisciplined forces to commit human rights abuses on a grander scale, raises the costs and exacerbates the dangers of peacekeeping missions, emboldens criminals of many sorts, stalls economic development, and increases the social burdens of caring for the wounded, the orphaned, and the displaced. Having been shipped to regions rife with the tensions of poverty, poor governance, and high ethnic, religious, or nationalist sentiment, the avtomat has helped to instigate and expand conflicts. And the prevalence of the Kalashnikov has helped the modern underground fighter to transform himself into today’s protean, shadowy enemy, giving shape to the Pentagon’s term for the conflicts in which the American military is almost irretrievably enmeshed—asymmetric war."


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Bobstamp

25 Jan 2016
07:45:02pm

I am searching, so far unsuccessfully, for stamps picturing the American M14 rifle (the primary infantry rifle used early in the Vietnam War) and the Soviet-designed AK-47 rifle (used by communist soldiers throughout the Vietnam War and in wide use throughout the world today). If you are aware of any such stamps, please let me know either the Scott or Stanley Gibbons numbers, or both if possible.

Bob

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Jan 2016
08:43:17pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

do the rifles need to be the sole item on the stamp, or just part of the design?

David

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musicman

APS #213005
25 Jan 2016
09:18:00pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

#298 & #358


Image Not Found



Are these possible?

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
25 Jan 2016
11:54:36pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

this was pretty informative, although it uses the M14's replacement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16

and, even better and more to what you ask: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu37r-2sfkQ, AK 47/74 vs M14 and M16A1/2

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Jansimon

26 Jan 2016
04:22:34am

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Russia issued a Kalashnikov stamp in 2014. It shows the inventor and his invention.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
26 Jan 2016
07:02:46am

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

I believe i have some Iranian covers that feature stamps in which the Kalishnakov is dominant. I'll try to find them, if I still have them.

I can't remember EVER seeing an M14 on a stamp; while being a good rifle, it neither enjoyed much longevity nor great production numbers compared to its predecessor or its successor.

From what little i've read, soldiers still use them in US, but either later sniper variants or as souped up modifieds, and value them tremendously


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Bobstamp

26 Jan 2016
10:53:27am

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Thanks for your interest, guys. I'll take a look at those links later today.

Nope, Musicman, neither of those rifles is an M14 or an AK-47. Both the M14 and the AK-47 have distinctive shapes.

This is the M-14. One of its distinctive features is the long flash suppressor at the muzzle; the rifle's length was a problem in jungle fighting in Vietnam:

Image Not Found

The AK-47, considerably shorter than the M14, is identifiable by its long, curved magazine, which could hold several more cartridges than the M14, and by the piston tube atop the barrel, part of the mechanism for automatically ejecting spent shell casings and chambering and firing new bullets. The AK-47 was shorter than the M14 and altogether a better weapon for jungle fighting.

Image Not Found

David wanted to know if I was interested in stamps that featured the rifles as their primary design element, or if they could be part of the design. Well, both, actually. I have several North Vietnam stamps and even one South Vietnam stamp which include AK-47s in the hands of soldiers, but no stamps at all that clearly show M14s. I'll post some scans later today.

Bob

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Guthrum

26 Jan 2016
11:06:42am

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

The Russian stamp of 2014 (SG8093) to which Jansimon refers has a portrait of the recently deceased (12.23.2013) Mikhail Kalashnikov, but the invention itself is silhouetted only faintly in the background (twice, they appear to be identical). You may want a better image if you're illustrating a topical page. I can't post the image here as I have not yet bought the stamp, but it features in a recent edition of the GSM stamp magazine.

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
26 Jan 2016
07:18:54pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob:

Just a note on the AK-47. As a reservist in the Canadian Army, in the 1980s, we were trained on most of the CommBloc weapons. The Chinese SKS, the AK-47, etc. By far, to me, the AK-47 was the most impressive weapon I have ever fired and carried. It can be stripped down with a single round. No combi-tool required like the Canadian FNC1A1 that we used.

David


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Bobstamp

27 Jan 2016
11:40:55pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

What is it that Homer Simpson says? "D'oh!" I'm saying it too. After I posted my question about stamps picturing the AK-47, I thought, "Bob, did you check your North Vietnam/Vietnam collection?" I was too embarrassed to answer myself, but I did check it. Surprise, surprise! North Vietnam issued several stamps picturing the AK-47!

Here's one, commemorating the 40th anniversary of the beginning of the First Indochina War.

Image Not Found

Here's another, with it twist. It shows an AK-47, a grenade launcher, and...an American M16! The stamp commemorates the 10th anniversary of the communist victory at Dien Bien Phu. I guess the M-16 image could be understood as a boast ("Look, we won the war and used some of their weapons to do it!") or a design by an artist who didn't know one rifle from another:

Image Not Found

And here is a South Vietnam military stamp, issued in 1969, picturing an AK-47. It's a propaganda stamp picturing refugees from North Vietnam being pursued by North Vietnamese soldiers. A million North Vietnamese refugees, primarily Roman Catholics, really did flee North Vietnam in 1954-55, but not necessarily voluntarily. It was largely a result of propaganda by the South Vietnamese government and the CIA. There were cases where Catholic priests ordered entire villages to evacuate. The stamp is surprisingly crude:

Image Not Found

Thanks for the note about the Russian stamp. I'll go searching for a copy.

David G., you're a lucky man to have actually fired an AK-47. I am — moral sin! — envious! In Vietnam, I never saw an AK-47. In fact, I've never seen one. I may have been shot by one, but there is evidence that it was an M14 in the hands of a North Vietnamese soldier.

Bob



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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2016
12:15:37am

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob, your 1985 stamp likely commemorates the fall of SVN, not the victory at Bien Dien Phu. The years match Saigon's fall, not the French defeat. And the M16 didn't exist in 1954, and I don't think it had been introduced to the Battlefield by 1964

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
28 Jan 2016
01:07:05pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob:

I fired an SKS, Tokarev, and a Moisin-Nagant, too. I liked Mother Russia's AK-47. Frankly, I like anything .30 calibre.

I'll e-mail you off-line and we can discuss wound ballistics.

David

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2016
01:56:43pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David,

if you don't include this on the DB, would you send me the conversation; I am interested too

David

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
28 Jan 2016
04:09:09pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David:

I'll have to clear your NATO security clearance with the R.C.M.P., first. Laughing

I'll get you in the loop.

David

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2016
04:15:15pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

don't need no steeenken NATO badgeees

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2016
04:15:56pm

Auctions

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

oh, wait, that's our other unsecured border

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
28 Jan 2016
04:19:59pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David:

"Question: Why do we learn how to use CommBloc weapons?"

"Answer: Maybe the Americans aren't our friends."

- Opening statement by the senior officer on the course, 1988 CFB Petawawa.

David

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2016
04:31:48pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David,

wish that were funnier rather than truer, but we Americans see threats everywhere but where they exist

David

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Bobstamp

28 Jan 2016
07:15:52pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

David Teisler wrote, "Bob, your 1985 stamp likely commemorates the fall of SVN, not the victory at Bien Dien Phu."

Thanks for the correction, David. I knew that. I had just turned my brain to its lowest setting before "Off". Big Grin
Here's the same stamp (to save scrolling back):

Image Not Found

And while I'm at it, I goofed on another description, too. This stamp...

Image Not Found

doesn't commemorate the First Indochina War (19 December 1946 —1 August 1954) as I said, but the police force of Vietnam.

Note to self: Check facts, then click on "Submit Message".

Bob

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
28 Jan 2016
07:21:11pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

and thanks for not correcting my dyslexic approach to the battle's site

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
28 Jan 2016
08:34:24pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Gents:

It looks like the first man in that stamp is carrying an American M16.

Thoughts?

David

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pedroguy

28 Jan 2016
09:50:52pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

" It looks like the first man in that stamp is carrying an American M16."




Good Eye DavidThumbs Up

When I was in Basic early in 1965 we qualified on the rifle range using M1 Carbines, it was like shooting a BB Gun

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DavidG

APS member since 2004
29 Jan 2016
09:02:31am

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Petroguy:

I always wondered what those American M1 Carbines were like!

What is that you are standing beside, in your avatar?

David

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Bobstamp

29 Jan 2016
12:43:54pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

I've held an M1 Carbine, but never shot one. Marines in the Pacific during the Second World War complained about its insufficient stopping power and penetration.

Back to the AK-47 on stamps, here's one that puzzling me; I'm going blind trying to find it in Scott and in a specialized North Vietnam catalogue I have. Any ideas?

Image Not Found

Bob

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meostamps

29 Jan 2016
01:42:50pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob, from the catalog database on Colnect:

Vietnam Liberation of Hue
Series:
Victories in Tet offensive 1968
Catalog codes:
Michel VN 584
Issued on:
1969-09-20
Format:
Stamp
Emission:
Commemorative
Perforation:
11
Printing:
Offset lithography
Size:
31 x 46 mm
Face value:
12 Vietnamese xu

Mike in NC / meostamps

PS Bob, a nice thing about using the Colnect database is that one way you can search is by face value. Took me about 3 minutes to find it. www.colnect.com membership is free.

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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
29 Jan 2016
01:49:10pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

OK guys, I have to defend the M1 Carbine. As an advisor to a Vietnamese Infantry Bn in 1967 we were not given M-16 because the Vietnamese did not have them. I was given a choice of a pistol or a M1 Carbine. I chose the Carbine because I really didn't want the enemy close enough to have to use a pistol. The Carbine was/is .30 caliber and had a folding stock and a large magazine which I taped 2 together. I also tried an M1 rifle, a French MAT 79 (way to heavy) and found that tip-toing through the jungle and rice paddies, the Carbine was the easiest to carry and quickest to use. The M1 Carbine served its purpose very well!! Would I rather have had a tank,Rolling On The Floor Laughing well yes, but not practical.

Mel

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Bobstamp

29 Jan 2016
10:55:34pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

@Meostamps — Thanks for this information, Mike. I've printed up the basics to include with the stamp in my stock book.

I wonder why it's not included in Scott. Perhaps it was never used postally. It's interesting that the stamp was issued to commemorate the "liberation" of Hue. Unless my history books and hundreds of web sites are wrong, Hue wasn't so much liberated as it was (mostly) occupied temporarily and in the end mostly destroyed as it was taken back by U.S. and ARVN troops. One of my neighbours in our apartment building here in Vancouver was born and grew up in Hue; she doesn't want to talk about the war and especially about what happened to Hue.

@Mel — I'm surprised that the ARVN didn't have M16s since the U.S. Army had been issued with them in 1963, according to Wikipedia. But, then, nothing about the Vietnam War should surprise me.

I found this interesting passage in a book M16, by Gordon Rottman:

Image Not Found

Bob

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meostamps

30 Jan 2016
08:18:34am

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Bob, Scott does include it as part of a 5 stamp set, # 552-6, in my 2008 catalog. They list issue date of July 31, 1969. Under the "Republic of N V N" section.

Mike in NC / meostamps

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pedroguy

30 Jan 2016
07:18:28pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

" What is that you are standing beside, in your avatar?"



That's a 16" Navy Shell, the type used on Battleships, weighs 2750 lbs. The picture was taken at The Fort MacArthur Military Museum here in San Pedro circa 1985.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
30 Jan 2016
07:49:12pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Which is usually dramatized as similar to a VW Beetle, filled with explosive hurtling twenty miles through the air. except the VW is not as aerodynamic.

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dollhaus

30 Jan 2016
08:35:11pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Thanks for the info, Bill. I couldn't figure out what that was - it is too big to be 8" gun or 240mm howitzer, or even 280mm howitzer. Didn't think of naval artillery.

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Bobstamp

30 Jan 2016
10:25:23pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

@Meostamps: OK, Mike, got it! Finally! I sure wish that Scott would include illustrations of all of the face-different stamps. The design of the one stamp they show isn't a lot like the three portrait-format stamps, and those three the Khe Sanh stamp is quite different from the other two.

Image Not Found

Anyway, at least I'm no longer lost!

Bob



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DavidG

APS member since 2004
31 Jan 2016
08:15:06am

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

"Which is usually dramatized as similar to a VW Beetle, filled with explosive hurtling twenty miles through the air. except the VW is not as aerodynamic."



Interesting. Although, I won't put it in my Volkswagens on Stamps collection! Big Grin

David

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Bobstamp

31 Jan 2016
02:06:57pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Further to the general topic of the AK-47, I'd like to recommend a Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Gun, by C.J. Chivers.

Image Not Found

Here's the blurb from Amazon:

"In a tour de force, prize-winning New York Times reporter C.J. Chivers traces the invention of the assault rifle, following the miniaturization of rapid-fire arms from the American Civil War, through WWI, Vietnam, to present day Afghanistan when Kalashnikovs and their knock-offs number as many as 100 million, one for every seventy persons on earth."



I'm not a "gun nut" but I grew up with guns and enjoy learning about the politics and technologies of their development. The subject especially interests me given my history in Vietnam, where I was wounded by a modern "battle rifle," most likely an American M14 but possibly an AK-47. One of the interesting things I've learned is that during the Second World War, the Germans and the Soviets figured out long before the Americans and the Brits that smaller-calibre, high-velocity, rapid-fire small arms were more effective on the battlefield than the bigger weapons that had changed little since the late 1800s. They would prove be even more effective than their bigger brethren in the guerrilla wars of the future, which is why the Americans (finally) developed the M16.

Interesting historical fact I learned: General Custer's troops, none of whom survived the massacre at Little Big Horn in 1876, were armed with newly issued single-shot, bolt-action rifles which put them rather at a disadvantage. The reason: the army wanted to save money on cartridges! Also, Custer could have taken rapid-fire Gatling guns with him, but he refused, believing that they would slow the movement of his column of cavalry. Of course, he wasn't around for the sharp criticism his decision received from some quarters. But overall, the army would take decades more to realize the importance of rapid-fire guns.

Bob I.
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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
31 Jan 2016
02:33:18pm

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re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

what rifles did the 7th employ in 1876; and were they standard throughout all 10 cavalry regiments?

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
31 Jan 2016
02:36:18pm

Auctions

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

i should also add that Chivers is an incredible journalist and writer. I first read him as he followed a platoon of 2/8 Marines in Iraq, and we could see their numbers dwindle in real time; since then, I follow everything he does.

David

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31 Jan 2016
05:02:11pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

" .... The reason: the army wanted to save money on cartridges! ...."

A regular Bob McNamara at the War Department.

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Bobstamp

31 Jan 2016
10:11:47pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

Especially for David T, who asked about the type of rifle Custer's troops were using:

From a History Net web page:

"During the battle, the 7th Cavalry troopers were armed with the Springfield carbine Model 1873 and the Colt Single Action Army revolver Model 1873. Selection of the weapons was the result of much trial and error, plus official testing during 1871/­73. The Ordnance Department staged field trials of 89 rifles and carbines, which included entries from Peabody, Spencer, Freeman, Elliot and Mauser. There were four primary contenders: the Ward-Burton bolt-action rifle; the Remington rolling-block; the ‘trapdoor’ Springfield; and the Sharps, with its vertically sliding breechblock.

Although repeating rifles such as the Spencer, Winchester and Henry had been available, particularly in the post-Civil War years, the Ordnance Department decided to use a single-shot system. It was selected instead of a repeating system because of manufacturing economy, ruggedness, reliability, efficient use of ammunition and similarity to European weapons systems."



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Bobstamp

31 Jan 2016
10:14:38pm

re: M14 and/or AK-47 rifles on stamps

In case you didn't particularly want to sleep tonight, here's a quote from C.J. Chivers' The Gun:

The Gun by C.J. Chives

"Serious estimates put the number of Kalashnikovs and its derivatives as high as 100 million. There could be one Kalashnikov for every seventy people alive. Where did all these rifles go? Huge numbers filled state arsenals, issued to Eurasian communist armies and stockpiled around the Cold War’s anticipated fronts. Untold millions were sold, others simply given to those thought to need them by the KGB and the Soviet army or their cousins in other communist states. During decades of influence jockeying, the Cold War saw the shipment of enormous quantities of Kalashnikovs to proxy forces, from the Viet Cong to militias in Beirut. Lists resemble tour guides to troubled lands: Russian, Chinese, and North Korean Kalashnikovs were carried by the North Vietnamese Army; Polish Kalashnikovs were shipped to the Contras; East German Kalashnikovs went to Yemen; Romanian AKs armed the Kurds; Russian and Bulgarian AK-47s supplied Rwanda; the United States directed Chinese and Egyptian Kalashnikovs to Afghanistan’s anti-Soviet mujahideen. Chinese Kalashnikovs are abundant in Uganda and Sudan. By the time the Iron Curtain fell, it had become difficult to travel outside Western democracies without seeing Kalashnikovs in some form. There are more Kalashnikovs circulating now than then; when state socialism collapsed, arsenals were looted and weapons locked within were trucked away for sale. For people who study the universe of disorder, automatic Kalashnikovs serve as reasonably reliable units of measure. Arms-control specialists and students of conflict look to the price of Kalashnikov assault to determine both the degree to which destabilized lands are awash in small arms and the state of risk. When prices rise, public anxiety is considered high. When they sink, the decline can indicate a conflict is ebbing. Because there is no surer sign that a country has gone sour than the appearance of Kalashnikovs in the public’s grip, they can also function as an informal social indicator, providing another sort of graduated scale. Anywhere large numbers of young men in civilian clothes or mismatched uniforms are carrying Kalashnikovs is a very good place not to go; when Kalashnikovs turn up in the hands of mobs, it is time to leave.

In the aftermath of the Cold War the overabundance of automatic Kalashnikovs has remained a persistent factor in terrorism, crime, ethnic cleansing, and local and regional destabilization. Their widespread presence empowers unflagged and undisciplined forces to commit human rights abuses on a grander scale, raises the costs and exacerbates the dangers of peacekeeping missions, emboldens criminals of many sorts, stalls economic development, to determine both the degree to which destabilized lands are awash in small arms and the state of risk. When prices rise, public anxiety is considered high. When they sink, the decline can indicate a conflict is ebbing. Because there is no surer sign that a country has gone sour than the appearance of Kalashnikovs in the public’s grip, they can also function as an informal social indicator, providing another sort of graduated scale. Anywhere large numbers of young men in civilian clothes or mismatched uniforms are carrying Kalashnikovs is a very good place not to go; when Kalashnikovs turn up in the hands of mobs, it is time to leave. In the aftermath of the Cold War the overabundance of automatic Kalashnikovs has remained a persistent factor in terrorism, crime, ethnic cleansing, and local and regional destabilization. Their widespread presence empowers unflagged and undisciplined forces to commit human rights abuses on a grander scale, raises the costs and exacerbates the dangers of peacekeeping missions, emboldens criminals of many sorts, stalls economic development, and increases the social burdens of caring for the wounded, the orphaned, and the displaced. Having been shipped to regions rife with the tensions of poverty, poor governance, and high ethnic, religious, or nationalist sentiment, the avtomat has helped to instigate and expand conflicts. And the prevalence of the Kalashnikov has helped the modern underground fighter to transform himself into today’s protean, shadowy enemy, giving shape to the Pentagon’s term for the conflicts in which the American military is almost irretrievably enmeshed—asymmetric war."


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