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United States/BOB & Other : Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

 

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jpm1025

07 Mar 2016
10:01:10am
The standard way of differentiating the 1879 postage due stamps (J1 – J7) from 1884 postage due stamps (J15 – J21) is color. The 1879 stamps are brown and the 1884 stamps are red brown. The problem is that with years of fading, sometimes the two colors are very difficult to tell apart. I was wondering if there was an alternate way to tell the stamps apart. I have noticed that some of the stamps have lines in the frame along the border and others are shaded (see pictures below). This implies to me that there were two different plates used to produce the stamps. Does anyone know if this characteristic can be used as an alternate method to identify 1879 vs. 1884 postage due stamps? If so, which is which?

Image Not Found Image Not Found

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seanpashby
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07 Mar 2016
01:37:55pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

I really hope this is true.

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michael78651
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07 Mar 2016
01:46:34pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

If you look at the pointed angels at the top of the images, you'll see that both tips of the angle on the red brown stamp are cut off, while the tips on the brown stamp are complete.

Also the large dot at the bottom of the image shows a complete circle on the brown stamps, while on the red brown stamp is is flat.

Interesting if these are recut dies for the red brown stamps, and if the differences pointed out in my reply and the original post are consistent.

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simothecat

08 Mar 2016
12:27:36pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

Hi,

I know nothing about these, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

If you look at the vertical lines of shading at the top of your scans, the bottom stamp has two more lines of shading between the angles. (The same appears to be true also for the next region to the left, but there is not enough shown to be sure.)

Jan

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seanpashby
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08 Mar 2016
01:59:39pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

Very good eye Jan. I never would have picked up on that.

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michael78651
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06 Apr 2016
12:33:58am
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

I'm not so sure about anything that we said here. I have been working on a couple of postage dues from this series. I took a look at all of mine, and found that the features are inconsistent based on over-inking, worn plates, etc.

Here is a link that discusses the postage dues, but states that ID is by color only.

http://www.shaulisstamps.com/tips/PostageDues.htm

Here is a site that offers images of the three different main colors:

http://values.hobbizine.com/stamps/us-due-1879-97.html

I found some images of these postage dues, but they were identified wrong. An obvious brown stamp listed as a claret, etc. So, it looks like confusion on this issue is normal.

The best that I could gather from the internet is that not counting the special reprints, there are three releases on the original postage due design, and under magnification:

- the first issue is brown and will show only brown

- the second issue is red brown and will show both brown and red

- the third issue is claret and will not show any brown

Exactly how helpful this is, I don't know. The Scott US Specialized Catalog also shows shades for each of these colors.

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khj
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06 Apr 2016
01:39:41am
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

As it turns out, I'm in the middle of a project regarding BOB plates.

The EXACT same set of plates (1 to 2 for each denomination) were used to print the respective denominations for ALL 3 sets:

J1-J7(1879) brown +shades
J15-J21(1884) red brown +shades
J22-J28(1884) bright claret +shades

Therefore, any differences between the first and last issues would be due to plate wear or repair/modifications to specific positions. Since the original plates are the same, you cannot really apply a general rule, unless you were speaking of a specific pane position.

It would stand to reason, that the more wear on a plate, the more likely to be 1884 issue. But there are so many other factors (inking, fading, stamp position) that it's tricky to ID based on that alone.

Regarding the 2 stamps pictured in the OP -- are those both from the same denomination? You cannot make comparisons between different denominations, even if they were taken from the same issue. The plates for different denominations are NOT necessarily identical (i.e., one cannot automatically assume the only difference is in the denomination). Even though the basic frame design might be similar, believe it or not, sometimes they do make very minor changes in the frame as they make the die for subsequent denominations. Sometimes the changes are intentional, sometimes unintentional. This is also true for worldwide sets as well.

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khj
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06 Apr 2016
01:48:13am
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

"- the first issue is brown and will show only brown

- the second issue is red brown and will show both brown and red

- the third issue is claret and will not show any brown"



The above quote from Michael##### post is accurate -- unfortunately, not promising for those like me who have great difficulty distinguishing/discriminating color shades.

You all are free to do additional research, because it really is needed. But in the end, I think you will find that the non-color-related features you all are noticing are more position/denomination dependent rather than issue dependent. There has been some great and comprehensive plating work done on the classic era regular postage stamps, even tracking the plate wear/damage of specific positions over time. Maybe some of you can be inspired to do the same for the early postage dues!

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michael78651
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06 Apr 2016
10:49:49am
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

AngryI'm about ready to pull all of my stamps from these three issues off my album page, put them in a brown bag, shake them up and put them back in the album in the order that I pick them out of the bag. Hypnotized

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HungaryForStamps
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06 Apr 2016
02:02:24pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

Stamps of the Bright Claret issue will glow under long wave UV light. The browns will not. However, its the browns that are hardest to separate.

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

06 Apr 2016
09:13:01pm

Approvals
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

"The standard way of differentiating the 1879 postage due stamps (J1 – J7) from 1884 postage due stamps (J15 – J21) is color. The 1879 stamps are brown and the 1884 stamps are red brown. The problem is that with years of fading, sometimes the two colors are very difficult to tell apart. I was wondering if there was an alternate way to tell the stamps apart. "



Collect them on cover.

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michael78651
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07 Apr 2016
12:14:38pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

The covers don't fit in my album space! Big Grin

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khj
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07 Apr 2016
12:24:26pm
re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

You can cut them out of the covers to make them fit.

Rolling On The Floor Laughing

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Author/Postings
jpm1025

07 Mar 2016
10:01:10am

The standard way of differentiating the 1879 postage due stamps (J1 – J7) from 1884 postage due stamps (J15 – J21) is color. The 1879 stamps are brown and the 1884 stamps are red brown. The problem is that with years of fading, sometimes the two colors are very difficult to tell apart. I was wondering if there was an alternate way to tell the stamps apart. I have noticed that some of the stamps have lines in the frame along the border and others are shaded (see pictures below). This implies to me that there were two different plates used to produce the stamps. Does anyone know if this characteristic can be used as an alternate method to identify 1879 vs. 1884 postage due stamps? If so, which is which?

Image Not Found Image Not Found

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seanpashby

07 Mar 2016
01:37:55pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

I really hope this is true.

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michael78651

07 Mar 2016
01:46:34pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

If you look at the pointed angels at the top of the images, you'll see that both tips of the angle on the red brown stamp are cut off, while the tips on the brown stamp are complete.

Also the large dot at the bottom of the image shows a complete circle on the brown stamps, while on the red brown stamp is is flat.

Interesting if these are recut dies for the red brown stamps, and if the differences pointed out in my reply and the original post are consistent.

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likes this post.
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www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
simothecat

08 Mar 2016
12:27:36pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

Hi,

I know nothing about these, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

If you look at the vertical lines of shading at the top of your scans, the bottom stamp has two more lines of shading between the angles. (The same appears to be true also for the next region to the left, but there is not enough shown to be sure.)

Jan

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seanpashby

08 Mar 2016
01:59:39pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

Very good eye Jan. I never would have picked up on that.

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michael78651

06 Apr 2016
12:33:58am

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

I'm not so sure about anything that we said here. I have been working on a couple of postage dues from this series. I took a look at all of mine, and found that the features are inconsistent based on over-inking, worn plates, etc.

Here is a link that discusses the postage dues, but states that ID is by color only.

http://www.shaulisstamps.com/tips/PostageDues.htm

Here is a site that offers images of the three different main colors:

http://values.hobbizine.com/stamps/us-due-1879-97.html

I found some images of these postage dues, but they were identified wrong. An obvious brown stamp listed as a claret, etc. So, it looks like confusion on this issue is normal.

The best that I could gather from the internet is that not counting the special reprints, there are three releases on the original postage due design, and under magnification:

- the first issue is brown and will show only brown

- the second issue is red brown and will show both brown and red

- the third issue is claret and will not show any brown

Exactly how helpful this is, I don't know. The Scott US Specialized Catalog also shows shades for each of these colors.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
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khj

06 Apr 2016
01:39:41am

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

As it turns out, I'm in the middle of a project regarding BOB plates.

The EXACT same set of plates (1 to 2 for each denomination) were used to print the respective denominations for ALL 3 sets:

J1-J7(1879) brown +shades
J15-J21(1884) red brown +shades
J22-J28(1884) bright claret +shades

Therefore, any differences between the first and last issues would be due to plate wear or repair/modifications to specific positions. Since the original plates are the same, you cannot really apply a general rule, unless you were speaking of a specific pane position.

It would stand to reason, that the more wear on a plate, the more likely to be 1884 issue. But there are so many other factors (inking, fading, stamp position) that it's tricky to ID based on that alone.

Regarding the 2 stamps pictured in the OP -- are those both from the same denomination? You cannot make comparisons between different denominations, even if they were taken from the same issue. The plates for different denominations are NOT necessarily identical (i.e., one cannot automatically assume the only difference is in the denomination). Even though the basic frame design might be similar, believe it or not, sometimes they do make very minor changes in the frame as they make the die for subsequent denominations. Sometimes the changes are intentional, sometimes unintentional. This is also true for worldwide sets as well.

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khj

06 Apr 2016
01:48:13am

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

"- the first issue is brown and will show only brown

- the second issue is red brown and will show both brown and red

- the third issue is claret and will not show any brown"



The above quote from Michael##### post is accurate -- unfortunately, not promising for those like me who have great difficulty distinguishing/discriminating color shades.

You all are free to do additional research, because it really is needed. But in the end, I think you will find that the non-color-related features you all are noticing are more position/denomination dependent rather than issue dependent. There has been some great and comprehensive plating work done on the classic era regular postage stamps, even tracking the plate wear/damage of specific positions over time. Maybe some of you can be inspired to do the same for the early postage dues!

Like
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this post
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michael78651

06 Apr 2016
10:49:49am

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

AngryI'm about ready to pull all of my stamps from these three issues off my album page, put them in a brown bag, shake them up and put them back in the album in the order that I pick them out of the bag. Hypnotized

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www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
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HungaryForStamps

06 Apr 2016
02:02:24pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

Stamps of the Bright Claret issue will glow under long wave UV light. The browns will not. However, its the browns that are hardest to separate.

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
06 Apr 2016
09:13:01pm

Approvals

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

"The standard way of differentiating the 1879 postage due stamps (J1 – J7) from 1884 postage due stamps (J15 – J21) is color. The 1879 stamps are brown and the 1884 stamps are red brown. The problem is that with years of fading, sometimes the two colors are very difficult to tell apart. I was wondering if there was an alternate way to tell the stamps apart. "



Collect them on cover.

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likes this post.
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michael78651

07 Apr 2016
12:14:38pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

The covers don't fit in my album space! Big Grin

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www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
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khj

07 Apr 2016
12:24:26pm

re: Help: Identification of Postage due: 1879 vs 1884

You can cut them out of the covers to make them fit.

Rolling On The Floor Laughing

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