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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

 

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Steven Scheibner

30 Mar 2004
09:23:07am
Many of the modern British issues are endorsed either "First Class" or "Second Class" mail. What exactly is the difference between the two classes? Too, can these stamps be used outside of that country? Can some one more knowledgeable than I advise?
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Liz Jones (Patches)

30 Mar 2004
10:23:22am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

According to the Royal Mail's website;

"One of the most frequently used of our postal services, First Class mail is ideal if you want your letter or packet to be delivered the next working day, including Saturday. It costs just 28p for letters and small items weighing up to 60g."

"Millions of people use Second Class mail every day to send letters, packets and other small items. It costs just 20p for letters and small items weighing up to 60g. We aim to deliver your mail by the third working day after posting."

I'm almost sure that these stamps can be used outside of the country, providing that enough postage is added to make up whatever the difference in rates would be. I say this because I have received complete sets of stamps on packets from Great Britain.

This information can be found on the internet -
http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm

I hope this helps.
Liz

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stamperdad
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30 Mar 2004
10:54:54am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I thought that the Universal Postal Union required a denomination on a stamp that was used internationally or else that the stamp be marked for International use. I believe there was quite an uproar in Australian recently over this type of marking and usage restriction on stamps.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Steve

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Liz Jones (Patches)

30 Mar 2004
11:08:09am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Sorry Steve I can't help with your question.

I know in Canada we can use old stamps, new stamps, whatever, as long as the total makes up the required postage costs, and of course as long as they are Canadian postage stamps.

I hope they never put a ruling like that into place here or else I'm going to have a lot of worthless pieces of paper called mint postage stamps :(

Liz

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David Teisler (Teisler)

30 Mar 2004
12:07:21pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

In the US, when we first began issuing non-denominated stamps (again; we had done so in the mid-70s) with the advent of a flurry of rate increases set to occur vitually minutes after their approval, we restricted the use of these non-denominational "letter" stamps and make-up rate stamps to domestic postage. More recent letter stamps and their make-up rate counterparts have not had that restriction.

I, too, see GB 1st and 2nd class postage on letters and pacquets sent to the US with great regularity.

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Mel

30 Mar 2004
05:45:38pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

australia post do prefer one to use the international mail stamps (they print them for a reason) but that is not the rule. i live in a small rural town and often find the post office has run out of most stamps (a bit frustrating). at christmas when sending cards internationally i was advised to just make up the value of the stamps using common stamps not specifically marked for international post and i had no trouble, i have done this since with no probs. but there are several values (from memory 3) used. there is one value of $1.20 for post to New Zealand and australiasia. there is another $1.65 (i think, actually pretty sure) for postage to US and UK ect. and i just cannot recall the current value of the other. i know in 2002 it was 50c but this has increased and i cant remember for what postage area it is used for. i also often use old stamps for postage and just make up values and send these around australia and new zealand (i have never had the oppertunity to use these smaller values for international post except to NZ). but i dont know if you can use the international ones internally, i cant see why not but it would be a waste of money as internal postage is not that expensive.
but i have never heard of any oposition or issues raised about these stamps or restricted postage, perhaps there was when they were introduced, that generally happens with any changes as it pushes us out of our comfort zones.. hope this helps
have a wonderful day one and all

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Scott

30 Mar 2004
06:11:42pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Australia has a very interesting postal system since the introduction of the GST a few years ago. They have stamps marked International Post which were designed for posting anything overseas. You have to pay GST on these. All the other stamps have no GST. To start you were not allowed to use 'regular' stamps on international mail. After so pressure from philatelic interest Australia Post changed its policy and you can now use regular stamps on international mail but you have to add the GST. There for to send a normal letter to north america (at $1.65) using regular stamps you have to attach $1.80 worth of stamps.

This is why the international stamps don't get used internally because you would be paying the GST when there is no need to.

It is amazing the number of postal clerks who keep telling me I am not allowed to use regular stamps on international mail and I keep having to correct them. Then once that is accepted I need to wait for 5 minutes so they can figure out how to calculate what 10 percent of 1.65 is. I have even had one tell me that 10 percent extra made it $2.65!

Hope this explains the Aussie stamps problem (which of course makes it more difficult for overseas collectors to get regular Australian stamps and for Australian to get used international stamps!)

Scott

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Mel

30 Mar 2004
07:43:03pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

thanks scott, very interesting, i did not realise GST was not paid internally on post, and i didnt realise there was ever a problem with the system (pretty silly of me though, what system doesnt have problems) but geez, GST on stamps, that is just ridiculous the buggers just want tax at all turns. so before GST could you just use anything or any combination of values??? oh and i have sent mail to NZ without realizing i needed to pay GST (just made up $1.20 of stamps) and the letters have reached destinations, perhaps they just fall through the system. and now you have made me aware of it, i bet they dont make it next time, that will be just my luck.
thansk again for the clarity
have a great day

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stamperdad
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31 Mar 2004
10:54:22am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi:

We in Canada pay GST (Goods and Service Tax) at the rate of 7% on all postage stamp purchases. Therefore when buying the 49c domestic rate you have to also pay an additional 3c so therefore the rate becomes actually 52c although the stamp of course only shows a 49c value.

The moral is that the only sure things in life are death and taxes.

Also on the Australian international stamps:

Can they be used internally for say parcels or registration fees? I thought thats where the problem arose?

Steve

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Steven Scheibner

31 Mar 2004
11:34:04am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Now to add fat onto the fire! For my UK friends: Does 28P really get you next day (first class) delivery? In the U.S. "First Class " mail means you get delivery in 1 to 2 days, with 2 days being the norm, for 37c. If you want guaranteed overnight delivery, the US Postal Service charges you $13.65. Some price difference! Comments, anyone?

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David Teisler (Teisler)

31 Mar 2004
11:49:34am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I think that USPS has done a terrible job of conceeding overnight delivery to UPS and FedX, but they have. They are left with everything else. That said, USPS does a wonderful job of delivering mail within 2 to 3 days (sometimes one) across 3,500 miles E-W and 2,000 miles N-S. The UK is a tad smaller.

So, do they really deliver all 28p next day?

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stamperdad
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31 Mar 2004
12:20:20pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi Steven:

37c for two day delivery in the US. That is excellent. Is that within the same city?

Here in Calgary a 49c (First Class) letter will be delivered within the city next day if you mail in the morning. Two days if you drop in the box later in the day (after 3 or 4 pm).

Inter-city mail such as Calgary to Toronto (2500 miles) takes anywhere from 3 to 7 days). I think it depends on whether there is room on the plane or not. Canada Post mail is put on regular planes and is subject to weight restrictions, so if there is too much passenger and baggage weight what is the first thing they throw off the plane -you guessed it, the mail bags.

Steve

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Richaard

31 Mar 2004
01:05:47pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

A few tips on mailing in the US.
I have found that on any mail over a pound, that Priority Mail is the cheapest way to send most everything,to points in the US, unless it is printed matter. Although Priority Mail is supposed to get there is two days, many times it takes longer, but unless I want it to arrive quickly I do not mind, a day or two more.
Printed matter goes via Media Mail at a very low rate starting at 1.42 for a pound.
The first class rate of .37 gets most mail to its destination in the US, within a couple of days. I have had foreign mail arrive within four days at the .60 rate.
I have learned not to register any mail. I carry private insurance, thus never use Registered Mail. When I used to use Registered Mail, I had several loses, as Registered mail invites someone to steal it, as they know it contains something of value.
My insurance company covers me up to $400.00 without need for a signature, and over $400.00 to $10,000.00, all I need to do is insure at the post office for $100.00, at a cost of $2.20 to get a signature. This saves my customers a lot of money in extra shipping costs.
For real heavy shipping, UPS may be the better choice.
When I was in the supply business for the postcard & stamp industry, I had an account with UPS, and all that heavy material went that way.
Another point regarding customs for sending post cards & covers. There is no duty paid on these items if you mark on the customs declaration, "Philatelic Covers Duty Free #9704.00.0000." By doing this you save your customers more monies.
This is a little known fact, and should be publicized more in the trade papers. I have written to Linn's about this, but they have never published it.
Richaard

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Jill Crowther

31 Mar 2004
10:25:03pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Sorry to be picky, but Scott has his facts the wrong way around about the Australian International Post stamps. The facts were explained in Australian stamp bulletin 255,June-July 2000 (I never throw anything out), and all subscribers were sent a letter from David Maiden, the then manager of Australia Post Philatetic Group, in Feb. 2001.
"Why international stamps were introduced. Under the Goods& Services Tax, exports are GST-free and international mail is an export. For all other domestic mail, postage rates needed to include GST.
Australia Post wanted to ensure that all users of international mail services could receive tax exemption, as our normal stamp range included GST. The answer was to include a dedicated range of stamps for international mail (identifably different from stamps used domestically) which did not include GST in the price.
Domestic and international stamps. From July 2000 Australia Post had 2 ranges of stamps, domestic and international, with domestic stamps for use on domestic mail and international stamps for use on international mail. This ensures our customers pay no GST on international mail but do so on mail sent within Australia". As there had been a furious outburst from stamp collectors about having to use only the very limited range of IP stamps to send overseas, Australia Post graciously granted the following concession: "From 5 March (2001), if you prefer to use domestic stamps on international mail you may, but a 10% surcharge must be paid to cover the GST element of domestic stamps. This is because Australia Post must pay GST to the Tax Office on all domestic stamps sold, regardless of their use"
I have found at Post Offices, that if your IP stamps are fairly close to the correct rate, you can use small value domestic stamps withour any problems (or GST).
Cheers, Jill

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Liz Jones (Patches)

01 Apr 2004
12:39:51am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi Jill:

If I read your comments correctly on domestic stamps for mail within Australia, you pay GST on the stamps. Is this GST included in the value shown on the stamp or is it like out GST and added to the face value of the stamp? In Canada we pay the GST when we purchase the stamps. The face value of our stamps do not include the GST. It is added to the price of the postage rate. If it costs $1.40 to mail an International letter I buy a $1.40 stamp but it costs me $1.49 to purchase that stamp.

Our GST rules are very complex. If merchandise is sent out of the country then it is not subject to GST. Yet, postage stamps are considered to be used within Canada by the person sticking them on the envelope so therefore they are subject to GST. If you were to visit our country and purchased merchandise that you were required to pay GST on, you can fill out a form and give it to customs before you leave the country and have the GST refunded. That is providing you do not use the merchandise & are taking it outside of Canada. Yet, if you were to stay in a hotel and eat in a restaurant and had to pay the 7% GST, plus the 10% hotel tax and another 10% liquor tax if you had a beer while you were eating, then you would not be entitled to receive a refund for the GST. The tax department's logic being that you consumed the product or used a service while within Canada and are not taking it "home" with you.

I'm surprised that the Canadian Provinces haven't put their greedy hands in on postage stamp tax and added another 8% tax (or more depending on which Province you live in)like they have with almost everything else.

If you already pay GST when you purchase these domestic rate stamps I don't understand why Australia Post would be adding another 10% surtax for using them on International Post when supposedly the GST has already been paid. I don't know what your GST rate is on postage stamps, but say it was 10% then you are actually paying 20% tax on the stamps if you use them for international mail.

Is this correct? This doesn't make logical sense to me.

My thinking would be that if you used domestic rate postage for shipping outside of Australia you could, but you could not get a refund on the GST for the postage. You would be paying GST on postage when you wouldn't have to if you used International Rate stamps, which you say are not taxable.

Weird!

Confused Liz

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malcolm hirst

01 Apr 2004
02:23:29am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Royal Mail say that 97 percent of first class mail is delivered the next day - probably because 90 per cent of the mail is sent second class anyway. I would dispute the figures purely from the point of view of the logistics involved. I reckon that very little first class mail is delivered the next day for instance in the Outer Hebrides or Shetland Islands if posted in the South of England at last collection time of say 6pm. Especially now that outside city areas the second delivery appears to no longer exist,so that mail has to be in the hands of the postman by 5 or 6 am. Having said that I reckon that the first class delivery here in the UK is very good(and so it should be at 28p a throw). However the second class service varies from bad to appalling.It has to be said also that local post has suffered from the ever increasing centralisation of sorting so that mail to the next street can go 10 miles or more to the sorting office then back again. Wonderful thing progress!!

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THOMAS E. HARLEY,SR.

01 Apr 2004
11:32:04am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I have a question???????
The stamps,that are face one price,but purchased at a higer price than face,such as Liz mentions ,from Canada,that have GST cost added to the price,
going to be listed as a semi-postal stamp in the catalogs.
although there is no aditional price printed on the face of the stamp,it is still like a surcharged stamp,or price plus stamp,similar to the U.S. semi-postals that are first class 37cent but cost 45cents.
Most semi-postals are listed in catalogs with a prefix letter " B " . Some have face prices like 10+10,some are nondenominated,others have accual increase prices on a previous printed stamp in regular issues,So there is no normal way to tell them apart from the original printing except the face price.
there seems to be no standard for recognizing semi-postals in any of the countries.
I guess you will have to read the printed information in the listings of the catalog.
But ,still wondering--will they be listed as semi-postals,and if so,how are we to tell the difference from a regular.Unless oncover,to show interior use or international,the stamp itself has no decernable markings.
Would like everyones comments on this subject.and any information to determine the statis,or catalog listings for these stamps,as use with GST added.
TOM

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DanB

01 Apr 2004
12:20:09pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

No, Tom. The stamps Liz talked about are not semi-postal stamps they are ALL of Canada's stamps. Domestic definitives, coils, comemoratives, international rates, Christmas stamps, $8 Grizzlies and even meters are included in this. Semi-postals generally have the money paid above and beyond regular postage go to a good cause (such as breast cancer research on the stamp you metion), whereas in Canada our money just goes to the governments coffers.

By the way, GST is another one of the "temporary" taxes (like income tax) that Canadians will likely never get rid of. Plenty of campaign promises but little action thus far.

Happily being raked by the friendliest of govenments,
DanB

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David Teisler (Teisler)

01 Apr 2004
12:30:58pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Dan's response to Tom's question brings to mind the listings for BC War Tax stamps, especially as they, too, were "temporary" taxes.

I agree with Dan that taxed stamps ought not to be regarded as semi-postals, as the money is not ear-marked for a non-government entity.

In a sense, they might belong to the R or RA series, except that only a part of the money spent is going to the government, as opposed to a charity or other non-mail delievering entity.

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Liz Jones (Patches)

01 Apr 2004
12:40:36pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

That's right Dan - GST is a temporary tax to get rid of the Government deficit. How many years has it been in effect and has the deficit decreased very much, if any? I believe it costs the Government more to administer the tax than what they collect.

Just like Income Tax came into being after the war - "temporary tax to pay off war debts". Has it disappeared?

I wonder when they'll come up with a "recycle fee" that they now charge when we purchase our 1L containers and pop cans, and who knows what other products are subject to this fee. After all we do "recycle" stamps, don't we, albeit that they don't have a separate bin for used postage stamps. Maybe I should put a dumpster at the recycling depot marked "used postage stamps and envelopes". :) :)

Liz

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stamperdad
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01 Apr 2004
12:44:29pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

HI Tom:

I liked Dan's answer on the GST. We call it the "gouge and screw tax". It is applied to almost every item and service that is purchased in Canada. In some cases it is built into the marked price and in others not so. For instance you pay this tax on your haircut and also on gasoline (along with all the other provincial and federal taxes). In effect you pay tax on top of tax.

In the case of postage stamps the 49c is in reality the cost Canada Post charges for delivering your first class domestic letter, the 3c GST on top goes to the federal governments slush fund or whatever. Ain't life fun.

Also the only true semi-postals that Canada had, other than war tax stuff, were ones issued for the 1976 Montreal Olympics and are listed in Scott.

Hope this helps
Steve

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Liz Jones (Patches)

01 Apr 2004
01:32:04pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Steve:

Canada also issued a semi-postal stamp on September 9, 1996. The 5¢ surcharge on the 'Canadian Literacy' stamp was for the benefit of ABC Canada in support of its family literacy programs.

Scott #B 13.

Liz

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stamperdad
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01 Apr 2004
02:22:51pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Yes Liz I had forgotten about that one. The point is though that Canada generally doesn't issue lots of these. The US also started issuing some these over the last few years (Heroes of 9/11, Breast Cancer, etc).

Can anyone comment on how well these have sold and how much have the proceeds have benefited the charity involved? I would be curious to know.

Steve

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David Teisler (Teisler)

01 Apr 2004
02:46:32pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

The first US semi postal (breast cancer research) was a HUGE success. The USPS didn't want it, but was mandated by Congress. It eventually asked for a second printing. I believe most of the second printing has been sold, too. I don't know how well the second semi (9/11 relief) has done. I see it on mail with some regularity. And we're on to our third (awareness of family violence), but it gets little play on the mail or the press. I suspect its abstract image and less than concretely stated goal don't help.

David

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Dakota
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01 Apr 2004
06:01:16pm

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re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I've been using the latter (Family Violence) regularly on my mail. The local PO only got about a dozen sheets and I've purchased 6 of them. The last time I did so I noted that they still had a few left.

Apparently this issue isn't going to be (hasn't so far) all that common. Anyone who receives one on cover might want to hold on to it for a few years.

Dakota

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THOMAS E. HARLEY,SR.

01 Apr 2004
08:27:53pm
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I believe the breast cancer semi postal did well because it benifited all,where as the hreoes stamp proceeds went to a specific small group,those killed or injured,and thier families from the 911 trade tower episode.The third one for family violence is getting feed back because of design,which designates that only women and children are victoms,and men are not included,but the cause.Makes for contoversy,and bad publiscity,so gov. isnt pushing the stamp,keeping a low profile.I think this stamp is a back burner item,and with little use,can become a colectable of, not scarce, but hard to find.
Semipostals are good for busnesses,not only do they get to write off a percentage of cost of postage,but also 100 percent of the extra fee as a contribution to a charitable organization.
I bet not many stamp collectors thought of that aspect of semipostals.

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stamperdad
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02 Apr 2004
08:58:37am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

David, Dakota and Tom:

Thanks so very much for the info on usage and benefits of semi-postals. Excellent stuff. I will once again reiterate that Stamporama is so lucky to have the wealth of knowledge that it does within its membership. For that reason alone it is the best.

Steve

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Jill Crowther

03 Apr 2004
02:26:48am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi Liz
re Australian stamps
Yes, the GST is included in the value shown on the stamp. The basic letter rate is 50c. Our GST is 10% (at the moment). I believe Australia Post subsidises part of the GST on the basic letter rate. We do have a different system to Canada's. When the GST was introduced, the powers that be decreed that prices on any sales of goods or services must include the GST (i.e. not to be listed and paid for separately). It's probably a good psychological ploy. People don't have to stop and think about adding tax to purchases. The actual GST is shown on dockets, but it's already been included.
Don't ask me to explain Australia Post's logic, please. I couldn't.
Cheers, Jill

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THOMAS E. HSARLEY,SR.

04 Apr 2004
12:10:28am
re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Jill and others,
this is what I was refering to in my previous question of semi postal statis.
Agreed,in Canada,the tax is imposed after the fact,but it seems the Australian stamps include the tax in the face value,making an imposed stamp.Maybe a possible back of the book revenue surcharge stamp,similar to Canada war tax stamps.And if one stamp is classified as rev. ,then all stamps of Australia printed after the GST was added to the face amount,(included in),can be considered revenue stamps.
Anytime a stamp is altered from the issued purpose,it becames a BOB item,be it revalued to upgraded service,additional amounts added for other than postage services,it becaomes a revenue stamp,or semi-postal.semi-postal meaning part postal and part for other than poastal useage.
I think I will hold onto all my mail from Ausrtralia,until some one deciedes the classification of these new issues pertaining to the GST add on price.And if the "temorary" tax continues very long,you may see a change in the way stamps are listed,or a change in the stamp design itself.Same goes for all the GST countries.
TOM

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Author/Postings
Steven Scheibner

30 Mar 2004
09:23:07am

Many of the modern British issues are endorsed either "First Class" or "Second Class" mail. What exactly is the difference between the two classes? Too, can these stamps be used outside of that country? Can some one more knowledgeable than I advise?

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Liz Jones (Patches)

30 Mar 2004
10:23:22am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

According to the Royal Mail's website;

"One of the most frequently used of our postal services, First Class mail is ideal if you want your letter or packet to be delivered the next working day, including Saturday. It costs just 28p for letters and small items weighing up to 60g."

"Millions of people use Second Class mail every day to send letters, packets and other small items. It costs just 20p for letters and small items weighing up to 60g. We aim to deliver your mail by the third working day after posting."

I'm almost sure that these stamps can be used outside of the country, providing that enough postage is added to make up whatever the difference in rates would be. I say this because I have received complete sets of stamps on packets from Great Britain.

This information can be found on the internet -
http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm

I hope this helps.
Liz

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stamperdad

30 Mar 2004
10:54:54am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I thought that the Universal Postal Union required a denomination on a stamp that was used internationally or else that the stamp be marked for International use. I believe there was quite an uproar in Australian recently over this type of marking and usage restriction on stamps.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Steve

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Liz Jones (Patches)

30 Mar 2004
11:08:09am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Sorry Steve I can't help with your question.

I know in Canada we can use old stamps, new stamps, whatever, as long as the total makes up the required postage costs, and of course as long as they are Canadian postage stamps.

I hope they never put a ruling like that into place here or else I'm going to have a lot of worthless pieces of paper called mint postage stamps :(

Liz

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David Teisler (Teisler)

30 Mar 2004
12:07:21pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

In the US, when we first began issuing non-denominated stamps (again; we had done so in the mid-70s) with the advent of a flurry of rate increases set to occur vitually minutes after their approval, we restricted the use of these non-denominational "letter" stamps and make-up rate stamps to domestic postage. More recent letter stamps and their make-up rate counterparts have not had that restriction.

I, too, see GB 1st and 2nd class postage on letters and pacquets sent to the US with great regularity.

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Mel

30 Mar 2004
05:45:38pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

australia post do prefer one to use the international mail stamps (they print them for a reason) but that is not the rule. i live in a small rural town and often find the post office has run out of most stamps (a bit frustrating). at christmas when sending cards internationally i was advised to just make up the value of the stamps using common stamps not specifically marked for international post and i had no trouble, i have done this since with no probs. but there are several values (from memory 3) used. there is one value of $1.20 for post to New Zealand and australiasia. there is another $1.65 (i think, actually pretty sure) for postage to US and UK ect. and i just cannot recall the current value of the other. i know in 2002 it was 50c but this has increased and i cant remember for what postage area it is used for. i also often use old stamps for postage and just make up values and send these around australia and new zealand (i have never had the oppertunity to use these smaller values for international post except to NZ). but i dont know if you can use the international ones internally, i cant see why not but it would be a waste of money as internal postage is not that expensive.
but i have never heard of any oposition or issues raised about these stamps or restricted postage, perhaps there was when they were introduced, that generally happens with any changes as it pushes us out of our comfort zones.. hope this helps
have a wonderful day one and all

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Scott

30 Mar 2004
06:11:42pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Australia has a very interesting postal system since the introduction of the GST a few years ago. They have stamps marked International Post which were designed for posting anything overseas. You have to pay GST on these. All the other stamps have no GST. To start you were not allowed to use 'regular' stamps on international mail. After so pressure from philatelic interest Australia Post changed its policy and you can now use regular stamps on international mail but you have to add the GST. There for to send a normal letter to north america (at $1.65) using regular stamps you have to attach $1.80 worth of stamps.

This is why the international stamps don't get used internally because you would be paying the GST when there is no need to.

It is amazing the number of postal clerks who keep telling me I am not allowed to use regular stamps on international mail and I keep having to correct them. Then once that is accepted I need to wait for 5 minutes so they can figure out how to calculate what 10 percent of 1.65 is. I have even had one tell me that 10 percent extra made it $2.65!

Hope this explains the Aussie stamps problem (which of course makes it more difficult for overseas collectors to get regular Australian stamps and for Australian to get used international stamps!)

Scott

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Mel

30 Mar 2004
07:43:03pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

thanks scott, very interesting, i did not realise GST was not paid internally on post, and i didnt realise there was ever a problem with the system (pretty silly of me though, what system doesnt have problems) but geez, GST on stamps, that is just ridiculous the buggers just want tax at all turns. so before GST could you just use anything or any combination of values??? oh and i have sent mail to NZ without realizing i needed to pay GST (just made up $1.20 of stamps) and the letters have reached destinations, perhaps they just fall through the system. and now you have made me aware of it, i bet they dont make it next time, that will be just my luck.
thansk again for the clarity
have a great day

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stamperdad

31 Mar 2004
10:54:22am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi:

We in Canada pay GST (Goods and Service Tax) at the rate of 7% on all postage stamp purchases. Therefore when buying the 49c domestic rate you have to also pay an additional 3c so therefore the rate becomes actually 52c although the stamp of course only shows a 49c value.

The moral is that the only sure things in life are death and taxes.

Also on the Australian international stamps:

Can they be used internally for say parcels or registration fees? I thought thats where the problem arose?

Steve

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Steven Scheibner

31 Mar 2004
11:34:04am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Now to add fat onto the fire! For my UK friends: Does 28P really get you next day (first class) delivery? In the U.S. "First Class " mail means you get delivery in 1 to 2 days, with 2 days being the norm, for 37c. If you want guaranteed overnight delivery, the US Postal Service charges you $13.65. Some price difference! Comments, anyone?

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David Teisler (Teisler)

31 Mar 2004
11:49:34am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I think that USPS has done a terrible job of conceeding overnight delivery to UPS and FedX, but they have. They are left with everything else. That said, USPS does a wonderful job of delivering mail within 2 to 3 days (sometimes one) across 3,500 miles E-W and 2,000 miles N-S. The UK is a tad smaller.

So, do they really deliver all 28p next day?

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stamperdad

31 Mar 2004
12:20:20pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi Steven:

37c for two day delivery in the US. That is excellent. Is that within the same city?

Here in Calgary a 49c (First Class) letter will be delivered within the city next day if you mail in the morning. Two days if you drop in the box later in the day (after 3 or 4 pm).

Inter-city mail such as Calgary to Toronto (2500 miles) takes anywhere from 3 to 7 days). I think it depends on whether there is room on the plane or not. Canada Post mail is put on regular planes and is subject to weight restrictions, so if there is too much passenger and baggage weight what is the first thing they throw off the plane -you guessed it, the mail bags.

Steve

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Richaard

31 Mar 2004
01:05:47pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

A few tips on mailing in the US.
I have found that on any mail over a pound, that Priority Mail is the cheapest way to send most everything,to points in the US, unless it is printed matter. Although Priority Mail is supposed to get there is two days, many times it takes longer, but unless I want it to arrive quickly I do not mind, a day or two more.
Printed matter goes via Media Mail at a very low rate starting at 1.42 for a pound.
The first class rate of .37 gets most mail to its destination in the US, within a couple of days. I have had foreign mail arrive within four days at the .60 rate.
I have learned not to register any mail. I carry private insurance, thus never use Registered Mail. When I used to use Registered Mail, I had several loses, as Registered mail invites someone to steal it, as they know it contains something of value.
My insurance company covers me up to $400.00 without need for a signature, and over $400.00 to $10,000.00, all I need to do is insure at the post office for $100.00, at a cost of $2.20 to get a signature. This saves my customers a lot of money in extra shipping costs.
For real heavy shipping, UPS may be the better choice.
When I was in the supply business for the postcard & stamp industry, I had an account with UPS, and all that heavy material went that way.
Another point regarding customs for sending post cards & covers. There is no duty paid on these items if you mark on the customs declaration, "Philatelic Covers Duty Free #9704.00.0000." By doing this you save your customers more monies.
This is a little known fact, and should be publicized more in the trade papers. I have written to Linn's about this, but they have never published it.
Richaard

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Jill Crowther

31 Mar 2004
10:25:03pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Sorry to be picky, but Scott has his facts the wrong way around about the Australian International Post stamps. The facts were explained in Australian stamp bulletin 255,June-July 2000 (I never throw anything out), and all subscribers were sent a letter from David Maiden, the then manager of Australia Post Philatetic Group, in Feb. 2001.
"Why international stamps were introduced. Under the Goods& Services Tax, exports are GST-free and international mail is an export. For all other domestic mail, postage rates needed to include GST.
Australia Post wanted to ensure that all users of international mail services could receive tax exemption, as our normal stamp range included GST. The answer was to include a dedicated range of stamps for international mail (identifably different from stamps used domestically) which did not include GST in the price.
Domestic and international stamps. From July 2000 Australia Post had 2 ranges of stamps, domestic and international, with domestic stamps for use on domestic mail and international stamps for use on international mail. This ensures our customers pay no GST on international mail but do so on mail sent within Australia". As there had been a furious outburst from stamp collectors about having to use only the very limited range of IP stamps to send overseas, Australia Post graciously granted the following concession: "From 5 March (2001), if you prefer to use domestic stamps on international mail you may, but a 10% surcharge must be paid to cover the GST element of domestic stamps. This is because Australia Post must pay GST to the Tax Office on all domestic stamps sold, regardless of their use"
I have found at Post Offices, that if your IP stamps are fairly close to the correct rate, you can use small value domestic stamps withour any problems (or GST).
Cheers, Jill

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Liz Jones (Patches)

01 Apr 2004
12:39:51am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi Jill:

If I read your comments correctly on domestic stamps for mail within Australia, you pay GST on the stamps. Is this GST included in the value shown on the stamp or is it like out GST and added to the face value of the stamp? In Canada we pay the GST when we purchase the stamps. The face value of our stamps do not include the GST. It is added to the price of the postage rate. If it costs $1.40 to mail an International letter I buy a $1.40 stamp but it costs me $1.49 to purchase that stamp.

Our GST rules are very complex. If merchandise is sent out of the country then it is not subject to GST. Yet, postage stamps are considered to be used within Canada by the person sticking them on the envelope so therefore they are subject to GST. If you were to visit our country and purchased merchandise that you were required to pay GST on, you can fill out a form and give it to customs before you leave the country and have the GST refunded. That is providing you do not use the merchandise & are taking it outside of Canada. Yet, if you were to stay in a hotel and eat in a restaurant and had to pay the 7% GST, plus the 10% hotel tax and another 10% liquor tax if you had a beer while you were eating, then you would not be entitled to receive a refund for the GST. The tax department's logic being that you consumed the product or used a service while within Canada and are not taking it "home" with you.

I'm surprised that the Canadian Provinces haven't put their greedy hands in on postage stamp tax and added another 8% tax (or more depending on which Province you live in)like they have with almost everything else.

If you already pay GST when you purchase these domestic rate stamps I don't understand why Australia Post would be adding another 10% surtax for using them on International Post when supposedly the GST has already been paid. I don't know what your GST rate is on postage stamps, but say it was 10% then you are actually paying 20% tax on the stamps if you use them for international mail.

Is this correct? This doesn't make logical sense to me.

My thinking would be that if you used domestic rate postage for shipping outside of Australia you could, but you could not get a refund on the GST for the postage. You would be paying GST on postage when you wouldn't have to if you used International Rate stamps, which you say are not taxable.

Weird!

Confused Liz

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malcolm hirst

01 Apr 2004
02:23:29am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Royal Mail say that 97 percent of first class mail is delivered the next day - probably because 90 per cent of the mail is sent second class anyway. I would dispute the figures purely from the point of view of the logistics involved. I reckon that very little first class mail is delivered the next day for instance in the Outer Hebrides or Shetland Islands if posted in the South of England at last collection time of say 6pm. Especially now that outside city areas the second delivery appears to no longer exist,so that mail has to be in the hands of the postman by 5 or 6 am. Having said that I reckon that the first class delivery here in the UK is very good(and so it should be at 28p a throw). However the second class service varies from bad to appalling.It has to be said also that local post has suffered from the ever increasing centralisation of sorting so that mail to the next street can go 10 miles or more to the sorting office then back again. Wonderful thing progress!!

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THOMAS E. HARLEY,SR.

01 Apr 2004
11:32:04am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I have a question???????
The stamps,that are face one price,but purchased at a higer price than face,such as Liz mentions ,from Canada,that have GST cost added to the price,
going to be listed as a semi-postal stamp in the catalogs.
although there is no aditional price printed on the face of the stamp,it is still like a surcharged stamp,or price plus stamp,similar to the U.S. semi-postals that are first class 37cent but cost 45cents.
Most semi-postals are listed in catalogs with a prefix letter " B " . Some have face prices like 10+10,some are nondenominated,others have accual increase prices on a previous printed stamp in regular issues,So there is no normal way to tell them apart from the original printing except the face price.
there seems to be no standard for recognizing semi-postals in any of the countries.
I guess you will have to read the printed information in the listings of the catalog.
But ,still wondering--will they be listed as semi-postals,and if so,how are we to tell the difference from a regular.Unless oncover,to show interior use or international,the stamp itself has no decernable markings.
Would like everyones comments on this subject.and any information to determine the statis,or catalog listings for these stamps,as use with GST added.
TOM

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DanB

01 Apr 2004
12:20:09pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

No, Tom. The stamps Liz talked about are not semi-postal stamps they are ALL of Canada's stamps. Domestic definitives, coils, comemoratives, international rates, Christmas stamps, $8 Grizzlies and even meters are included in this. Semi-postals generally have the money paid above and beyond regular postage go to a good cause (such as breast cancer research on the stamp you metion), whereas in Canada our money just goes to the governments coffers.

By the way, GST is another one of the "temporary" taxes (like income tax) that Canadians will likely never get rid of. Plenty of campaign promises but little action thus far.

Happily being raked by the friendliest of govenments,
DanB

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David Teisler (Teisler)

01 Apr 2004
12:30:58pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Dan's response to Tom's question brings to mind the listings for BC War Tax stamps, especially as they, too, were "temporary" taxes.

I agree with Dan that taxed stamps ought not to be regarded as semi-postals, as the money is not ear-marked for a non-government entity.

In a sense, they might belong to the R or RA series, except that only a part of the money spent is going to the government, as opposed to a charity or other non-mail delievering entity.

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Liz Jones (Patches)

01 Apr 2004
12:40:36pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

That's right Dan - GST is a temporary tax to get rid of the Government deficit. How many years has it been in effect and has the deficit decreased very much, if any? I believe it costs the Government more to administer the tax than what they collect.

Just like Income Tax came into being after the war - "temporary tax to pay off war debts". Has it disappeared?

I wonder when they'll come up with a "recycle fee" that they now charge when we purchase our 1L containers and pop cans, and who knows what other products are subject to this fee. After all we do "recycle" stamps, don't we, albeit that they don't have a separate bin for used postage stamps. Maybe I should put a dumpster at the recycling depot marked "used postage stamps and envelopes". :) :)

Liz

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stamperdad

01 Apr 2004
12:44:29pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

HI Tom:

I liked Dan's answer on the GST. We call it the "gouge and screw tax". It is applied to almost every item and service that is purchased in Canada. In some cases it is built into the marked price and in others not so. For instance you pay this tax on your haircut and also on gasoline (along with all the other provincial and federal taxes). In effect you pay tax on top of tax.

In the case of postage stamps the 49c is in reality the cost Canada Post charges for delivering your first class domestic letter, the 3c GST on top goes to the federal governments slush fund or whatever. Ain't life fun.

Also the only true semi-postals that Canada had, other than war tax stuff, were ones issued for the 1976 Montreal Olympics and are listed in Scott.

Hope this helps
Steve

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Liz Jones (Patches)

01 Apr 2004
01:32:04pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Steve:

Canada also issued a semi-postal stamp on September 9, 1996. The 5¢ surcharge on the 'Canadian Literacy' stamp was for the benefit of ABC Canada in support of its family literacy programs.

Scott #B 13.

Liz

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stamperdad

01 Apr 2004
02:22:51pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Yes Liz I had forgotten about that one. The point is though that Canada generally doesn't issue lots of these. The US also started issuing some these over the last few years (Heroes of 9/11, Breast Cancer, etc).

Can anyone comment on how well these have sold and how much have the proceeds have benefited the charity involved? I would be curious to know.

Steve

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David Teisler (Teisler)

01 Apr 2004
02:46:32pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

The first US semi postal (breast cancer research) was a HUGE success. The USPS didn't want it, but was mandated by Congress. It eventually asked for a second printing. I believe most of the second printing has been sold, too. I don't know how well the second semi (9/11 relief) has done. I see it on mail with some regularity. And we're on to our third (awareness of family violence), but it gets little play on the mail or the press. I suspect its abstract image and less than concretely stated goal don't help.

David

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Dakota

01 Apr 2004
06:01:16pm

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re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I've been using the latter (Family Violence) regularly on my mail. The local PO only got about a dozen sheets and I've purchased 6 of them. The last time I did so I noted that they still had a few left.

Apparently this issue isn't going to be (hasn't so far) all that common. Anyone who receives one on cover might want to hold on to it for a few years.

Dakota

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THOMAS E. HARLEY,SR.

01 Apr 2004
08:27:53pm

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

I believe the breast cancer semi postal did well because it benifited all,where as the hreoes stamp proceeds went to a specific small group,those killed or injured,and thier families from the 911 trade tower episode.The third one for family violence is getting feed back because of design,which designates that only women and children are victoms,and men are not included,but the cause.Makes for contoversy,and bad publiscity,so gov. isnt pushing the stamp,keeping a low profile.I think this stamp is a back burner item,and with little use,can become a colectable of, not scarce, but hard to find.
Semipostals are good for busnesses,not only do they get to write off a percentage of cost of postage,but also 100 percent of the extra fee as a contribution to a charitable organization.
I bet not many stamp collectors thought of that aspect of semipostals.

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stamperdad

02 Apr 2004
08:58:37am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

David, Dakota and Tom:

Thanks so very much for the info on usage and benefits of semi-postals. Excellent stuff. I will once again reiterate that Stamporama is so lucky to have the wealth of knowledge that it does within its membership. For that reason alone it is the best.

Steve

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Jill Crowther

03 Apr 2004
02:26:48am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Hi Liz
re Australian stamps
Yes, the GST is included in the value shown on the stamp. The basic letter rate is 50c. Our GST is 10% (at the moment). I believe Australia Post subsidises part of the GST on the basic letter rate. We do have a different system to Canada's. When the GST was introduced, the powers that be decreed that prices on any sales of goods or services must include the GST (i.e. not to be listed and paid for separately). It's probably a good psychological ploy. People don't have to stop and think about adding tax to purchases. The actual GST is shown on dockets, but it's already been included.
Don't ask me to explain Australia Post's logic, please. I couldn't.
Cheers, Jill

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THOMAS E. HSARLEY,SR.

04 Apr 2004
12:10:28am

re: Internatinal Mail and stamps denominated "First" or "Second" class only

Jill and others,
this is what I was refering to in my previous question of semi postal statis.
Agreed,in Canada,the tax is imposed after the fact,but it seems the Australian stamps include the tax in the face value,making an imposed stamp.Maybe a possible back of the book revenue surcharge stamp,similar to Canada war tax stamps.And if one stamp is classified as rev. ,then all stamps of Australia printed after the GST was added to the face amount,(included in),can be considered revenue stamps.
Anytime a stamp is altered from the issued purpose,it becames a BOB item,be it revalued to upgraded service,additional amounts added for other than postage services,it becaomes a revenue stamp,or semi-postal.semi-postal meaning part postal and part for other than poastal useage.
I think I will hold onto all my mail from Ausrtralia,until some one deciedes the classification of these new issues pertaining to the GST add on price.And if the "temorary" tax continues very long,you may see a change in the way stamps are listed,or a change in the stamp design itself.Same goes for all the GST countries.
TOM

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