Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Tony
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Hi Tony: MH1/2? Lol. Actually the listing was intended as a category reference for that page like MH1--->, just as a year reference, but I see what you mean and I will correct it to avoid confusion. Thanks
Rrr
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MH1/2? makes sense, and since we are in the subject, do you have any to spare?
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03:16:39am
The puzzlement about catalogue numbers give me the opportunity to re-post my explanation for the Deegam Numbering system and its beautiful facility when a new stamp is issued.
***
Doug created his own very logical system of numbering Machins that allowed similar issues to be grouped together by value and color with the added advantage that once a stamp is issued a number, that should never change, and new variations could be added in place or inserted between previous similar issues without changing whole strings of previously determined numbers.
It works like this.
Imagine that a 21p stamp was issued by Royal Mail. It gets the standard Deegam number of DG 21.1.1.
Six months later two almost identical stamps are printed and manufactured by a different printer, one with one kind of gum and one with a different kind of gum. They are listed as DG 21.2.1 and DG 21.3.1 and so without changing the 22p and other higher value stamp's numbers and so on, we can easily see where these beauties fit.
(Note: There are no 21p Machin stamps, so
I chose that value for illustration purposes.)
Then some alert collector spots one of the stamps that is identical to DG21.1.1 except for it having a single left band. After verifying its main characteristics Doug can assign it the number DG 21.1.2 so that we now have;
DG21.1.1,-------- Still the same number
DG21.1.2,---------The new variation fits in here
DG21.2.1,-------- Still the same number
and,
DG21.3.1---------- Still the same number
Notice that the first, second and third variation all have kept their original designation.
Imagine further that several years pass by and other variations in printing method, phosphor bands, gum, paper type, and even a different colo are produced or discovered.
The new stamps are given appropriate numbers according to the hierarchy established by Doug when they started and completely explained in the Complete Machin Handbook so that the section covering the 21p stamps now looks like this;
.
DG21.1.1 -------- Still the same number
DG21.1.2
DG21.1.3
DG21.2.1 -------- Still the same number
DG21.2.2
DG21.3.1 -------- Still the same number
DG21.3.2
DG21.3.3
DG21.4.1 -------- the new color
.
Now in truth, there have been a few adjustments mostly to correct typos and some unavoidable corrections, (Three or four in 45 years, imagine that !) but very few and easy to accommodate without any major overhaul of the rest of the 21p section. And definitely a correction of something in the 21p group will not affect the higher listed values.
If a new stamp is issued that has as its main characteristics that show it is a further variation of DG21.3.3 it can be assigned DG21.3.4 or if it is only a very minor alteration of DG21.3.3 it can be given the number DG21.3.3a and any collector who has taken the time to follow the system knows just from looking at the number where that stamp ought to be placed.
Meanwhile, during the forty-five years since the first Machins were produced Gibbons has re-ordered its numbers several times and created a kind of havoc among collectors that even to this day there are times where in certain cases, I am not sure which number is assigned to which stamp, unless I have bought the latest Gibbons guide and checked through the long list of corrections issued by them for typos or changes. Scott, finally had to hire an American Machin expert, Richard Muller, to completely overhaul its standard numbering system and they created the prefix "MH" for all Machin stamps.
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I abandoned Machins before I'd gravitated as far as a Deegam catalogue, but it does seem an excellent and logical way of dealing with these dreadful stamps.
Oh for the days when we have done with them. I do hope (contra a certain satirical squib lately seen on these boards) we do not get lumbered with a King Charles equivalent.
I have an album full of the things, used, unused, partly used, abused, gummed, ungummed, bookleted, printed by Dutchmen... everything up to around 2004, well beyond the time when the whole business had become ridiculous. (I refer to the deliberate manufacturing of needless and arcane varieties aimed solely and cynically at the collector.)
I do hope my grandson, now 8 months old, will value it rather more when, in 65 or so years time, he turns to this strange 'hoard' to pass his retirement days.
PS: That is extremely sexist. My granddaughters are 5 and 6. They'll get there first, of course.
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07:17:51pm
Yes, sexist but excusable somewhat.
The youngest always seems to get the most immediate attention.
My five grandsons, except the two year old,
all have been started with stamps and a notebook,
but also each of the eight girls as well.
The boys show some interest but are easily drawn off
to physical sports, electronic gadgetry and eventually girls.
The girls seem to have continued longer
and have the notebooks stashed away for the imponderable future.
Charlie
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Unlike Guthrum I am a Machin enthusiast.
However I have no desire to contribute mega-bucks to Royal Mail's coffers by purchasing wallpaper which will see no postal use.
The solution? I collect postally used - real genuine stamps that have seen real genuine use. Kiloware is cheap. However most of the fun has now gone with all these standardised 2nd and 1st stamps. Yes there are still the odd scarce varieties - but most are dead common. In the days when proper stamps were issued, a box of kiloware would contain lots of different value Machins, with regionals and the odd commemorative - and you didn't go bog-eyed looking at 5000 almost identical stamps in the hope ( usually forlorn) of finding the odd one that you don't have.
However the history of Machins is quite fascinating. Other than the stamps in Prestige booklets and Miniature sheets they are not produced for collectors. Almost all the changes were made for what Royal Mail calls "operational reasons" that is new tariffs, postal mechanisation, changes in colour/shade to avoid confusing stamps in poor or artificial light etc. In fact some of the changes have not been notified to collectors but have come to light through keen collectors picking up on the difference.
The secret with collecting these is to have several batches of stamps at different stages in the sorting/mounting processes. As everyone is aware concentrating for too long on one process is counter productive, so frequent changes in "activities" are advisable. Fortunately as an all-world collector when I find myself getting "stale" I can move on to something else for a time.
Malcolm
1 Member
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I'll second what Will Rogers once said....
"Never met a postage stamp I didn't like"
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12:50:57am
" .... stashed away for the imponderable future. ...."
I wanted to continue, but was distracted by the cell phone and other things.
I think of introducing stamps and stamping to the kids and grand kids somewhat like planting a tree, something I've done many times on my property. I may not be here to sit "under a spreading chestnut tree" and enjoy the shade. the nesting birds, or the sparks of knowledge from stamping's forge, but I will enjoy the flights of fancy imagining that one, or more, of them will one day take up the hobby and have the same pleasure I get every day from the collecting these little pieces of paper.
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Ralph, you listed the 1d as MH1, where will you put the 1/2d, which I believe was the first one issued?
Tony
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
04 Apr 2016
11:08:19am
re: Machins 1/2 d
Hi Tony: MH1/2? Lol. Actually the listing was intended as a category reference for that page like MH1--->, just as a year reference, but I see what you mean and I will correct it to avoid confusion. Thanks
Rrr
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re: Machins 1/2 d
MH1/2? makes sense, and since we are in the subject, do you have any to spare?
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Apr 2016
03:16:39am
re: Machins 1/2 d
The puzzlement about catalogue numbers give me the opportunity to re-post my explanation for the Deegam Numbering system and its beautiful facility when a new stamp is issued.
***
Doug created his own very logical system of numbering Machins that allowed similar issues to be grouped together by value and color with the added advantage that once a stamp is issued a number, that should never change, and new variations could be added in place or inserted between previous similar issues without changing whole strings of previously determined numbers.
It works like this.
Imagine that a 21p stamp was issued by Royal Mail. It gets the standard Deegam number of DG 21.1.1.
Six months later two almost identical stamps are printed and manufactured by a different printer, one with one kind of gum and one with a different kind of gum. They are listed as DG 21.2.1 and DG 21.3.1 and so without changing the 22p and other higher value stamp's numbers and so on, we can easily see where these beauties fit.
(Note: There are no 21p Machin stamps, so
I chose that value for illustration purposes.)
Then some alert collector spots one of the stamps that is identical to DG21.1.1 except for it having a single left band. After verifying its main characteristics Doug can assign it the number DG 21.1.2 so that we now have;
DG21.1.1,-------- Still the same number
DG21.1.2,---------The new variation fits in here
DG21.2.1,-------- Still the same number
and,
DG21.3.1---------- Still the same number
Notice that the first, second and third variation all have kept their original designation.
Imagine further that several years pass by and other variations in printing method, phosphor bands, gum, paper type, and even a different colo are produced or discovered.
The new stamps are given appropriate numbers according to the hierarchy established by Doug when they started and completely explained in the Complete Machin Handbook so that the section covering the 21p stamps now looks like this;
.
DG21.1.1 -------- Still the same number
DG21.1.2
DG21.1.3
DG21.2.1 -------- Still the same number
DG21.2.2
DG21.3.1 -------- Still the same number
DG21.3.2
DG21.3.3
DG21.4.1 -------- the new color
.
Now in truth, there have been a few adjustments mostly to correct typos and some unavoidable corrections, (Three or four in 45 years, imagine that !) but very few and easy to accommodate without any major overhaul of the rest of the 21p section. And definitely a correction of something in the 21p group will not affect the higher listed values.
If a new stamp is issued that has as its main characteristics that show it is a further variation of DG21.3.3 it can be assigned DG21.3.4 or if it is only a very minor alteration of DG21.3.3 it can be given the number DG21.3.3a and any collector who has taken the time to follow the system knows just from looking at the number where that stamp ought to be placed.
Meanwhile, during the forty-five years since the first Machins were produced Gibbons has re-ordered its numbers several times and created a kind of havoc among collectors that even to this day there are times where in certain cases, I am not sure which number is assigned to which stamp, unless I have bought the latest Gibbons guide and checked through the long list of corrections issued by them for typos or changes. Scott, finally had to hire an American Machin expert, Richard Muller, to completely overhaul its standard numbering system and they created the prefix "MH" for all Machin stamps.
Login to Like
this post
re: Machins 1/2 d
I abandoned Machins before I'd gravitated as far as a Deegam catalogue, but it does seem an excellent and logical way of dealing with these dreadful stamps.
Oh for the days when we have done with them. I do hope (contra a certain satirical squib lately seen on these boards) we do not get lumbered with a King Charles equivalent.
I have an album full of the things, used, unused, partly used, abused, gummed, ungummed, bookleted, printed by Dutchmen... everything up to around 2004, well beyond the time when the whole business had become ridiculous. (I refer to the deliberate manufacturing of needless and arcane varieties aimed solely and cynically at the collector.)
I do hope my grandson, now 8 months old, will value it rather more when, in 65 or so years time, he turns to this strange 'hoard' to pass his retirement days.
PS: That is extremely sexist. My granddaughters are 5 and 6. They'll get there first, of course.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
06 Apr 2016
07:17:51pm
re: Machins 1/2 d
Yes, sexist but excusable somewhat.
The youngest always seems to get the most immediate attention.
My five grandsons, except the two year old,
all have been started with stamps and a notebook,
but also each of the eight girls as well.
The boys show some interest but are easily drawn off
to physical sports, electronic gadgetry and eventually girls.
The girls seem to have continued longer
and have the notebooks stashed away for the imponderable future.
Charlie
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this post
04:40:34pm
re: Machins 1/2 d
Unlike Guthrum I am a Machin enthusiast.
However I have no desire to contribute mega-bucks to Royal Mail's coffers by purchasing wallpaper which will see no postal use.
The solution? I collect postally used - real genuine stamps that have seen real genuine use. Kiloware is cheap. However most of the fun has now gone with all these standardised 2nd and 1st stamps. Yes there are still the odd scarce varieties - but most are dead common. In the days when proper stamps were issued, a box of kiloware would contain lots of different value Machins, with regionals and the odd commemorative - and you didn't go bog-eyed looking at 5000 almost identical stamps in the hope ( usually forlorn) of finding the odd one that you don't have.
However the history of Machins is quite fascinating. Other than the stamps in Prestige booklets and Miniature sheets they are not produced for collectors. Almost all the changes were made for what Royal Mail calls "operational reasons" that is new tariffs, postal mechanisation, changes in colour/shade to avoid confusing stamps in poor or artificial light etc. In fact some of the changes have not been notified to collectors but have come to light through keen collectors picking up on the difference.
The secret with collecting these is to have several batches of stamps at different stages in the sorting/mounting processes. As everyone is aware concentrating for too long on one process is counter productive, so frequent changes in "activities" are advisable. Fortunately as an all-world collector when I find myself getting "stale" I can move on to something else for a time.
Malcolm
1 Member
likes this post.
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re: Machins 1/2 d
I'll second what Will Rogers once said....
"Never met a postage stamp I didn't like"
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this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
19 Apr 2016
12:50:57am
re: Machins 1/2 d
" .... stashed away for the imponderable future. ...."
I wanted to continue, but was distracted by the cell phone and other things.
I think of introducing stamps and stamping to the kids and grand kids somewhat like planting a tree, something I've done many times on my property. I may not be here to sit "under a spreading chestnut tree" and enjoy the shade. the nesting birds, or the sparks of knowledge from stamping's forge, but I will enjoy the flights of fancy imagining that one, or more, of them will one day take up the hobby and have the same pleasure I get every day from the collecting these little pieces of paper.
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