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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

 

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant

03 May 2016
04:06:15am
In this envelope of early Italian stamps that I have recovered from that infamous basement box, (stamps are circa mid 1800s to very early 1900s, most of the stamps are Italy and are pre-Scott # 150), there seem to be a surprise.
Embossed imperf 40 c King Victor Emmanuel II looking very much like a Sardinia Embossed center (Scott A1 design) from the 1850s. But it is colorless as you can see from the attached scan (two photos enhanced to get a better idea) and no hint of any original color.
Nice wide 4 margins by the way!
So, what do you think it is, and how can I make sure. I tried sharpening the picture, shining light though, using fluorescent lighting, etc..but nothing reveals any color. Could it have been a proof?

The stamps in the envelope were just clipped, or actually peeled off envelopes or old albums, and stored away. Many did come from old albums given the hinges and glue..but not from a professional collection given their condition and how they were mounted with layers of hinges on stamps still attached to some envelope backing), so I don't think anyone had tried to play a game. This stamp had Italy scribbled in a bleu pencil on the back, and no hinge remnants.

Most of the other stamps required soaking, and had not been looked at in at least 50 years... so I am confident this one too is real..but what is it? Definitely genuine is my opinion and I did not soak it either.

So what do you think? And how can I get a better sense of what it really is?

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Puzzled...
rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
khj
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03 May 2016
04:17:00am
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Well, I can see that both the vignette and inscriptions are embossed.

Check to see if you have a faded Scott Sardinia #6(1853), the 40c pale rose. Both the vignette & inscriptions were embossed on this issue, unlike the 1855 issue in which the frame is typographed.

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ikeyPikey
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03 May 2016
11:12:55am
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

"... had not been looked at in at least 50 years... so I am confident this one too is real ..."



I'm not sure that this is a reliable test.

Collectors back in the day were much more forgiving about including replicas in their collections.

I hope it turns out to be quite the find!

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant

03 May 2016
12:34:49pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Thanks for the look. Very helpful.
I must agree with both of you. First, yes it cannot be anything but Sardinia Sc #6 pale rose (really pale...Laughing ). and yes, one can never be sure. This is both a collector heaven and a nightmare...so many older stamps cramped in one envelope...so many abused and damaged...and yet many finds too... I washed 100 stamps yesterday, selecting what I thought were the more interesting ones, and this morning, I found another 50 or so worth a good bath!

As I look through it all, I now see many overprints with Constantinople, para o/p, perfins, and unusual cancelations (What is this ??ELOUAN-ON??), etc...which makes sense since part of this Italian family was Jewish living under the Ottoman Empire's protection prior to its fall.
Cancelations are also interesting, and many seem to be from the early 1920s. Penny Kim, you would appreciate it! Look at the attached photos of what I am going through!
Image Not Found Image Not Found Image Not Found


I wish I had more expertise about Italian stamps, as I am sure going to miss a lot. Italy is an area I am just beginning to pay attention to.
For that Sardinia #6, I initially thought it was a piece of stamp envelope backing, but was lucky enough not to junk it, and it motivated me to look very carefully through the rest, which I had labeled "kids collection remnants".

rrr...

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

03 May 2016
06:17:22pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

RRR, I think your stamps is indeed a Sardinia #6. The stamp were not printed with ink but embossed on colored thru paper. If so the back of the stamp should at least have traces of Pink to Rose on it. No doubt the pale color could have been altered in different ways.
Below is a scan of my #5 which is the only one I have of the set of 3. You can see how the color runs through the paper and is not printed in ink.
Next stop for me is to soak those hinge remnants off while it's out of the book.

Image Not Found

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

03 May 2016
07:38:55pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

rrr, My Italian collection shows all but 3 stamps thru 1980. By referring to it you should find it the easiest way of sorting the stamps you have. Also check Italian possessions for overprints.

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant

04 May 2016
01:11:42am
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Very helpful Mitch!

On another subject, where did you hide your Andorra?

rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

04 May 2016
02:41:14am
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

My Andorra is pretty weak as I have not concentrated on it yet.
Is there any Reddish tinting to the back of that Sardinian stamp?

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mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/mapindex.html
rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant

04 May 2016
12:34:43pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Mitch: The paper has a pinkish..or I would say fleshy tint to it throughout. Not what I would call pink, nor light pink...more like flesh color...but very light. Indeed as you state, it is the paper and not the print that has color, which is why I thought it was colorless. The stamp is embossed, with good relief and very distinctive features. rrr...

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

04 May 2016
04:18:04pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Below is a copy of a genuine example and below that a forgery that I found on the website whose link follows. The forgery appears to be excellent and I would not want to hazard a guess which yours is. Obviously it would require expertizing to know what you have.
Here is the site on Italian States: http://www.forgeriesofitalianstates.com/Sardinia/Sardinia.htm

Image Not Found

Image Not Found



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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant

04 May 2016
10:11:40pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Thanks Mitch.
The first stamp's color is fleshier than the counterfiet one....would be more like mine, if any color still showed properly on mine.
I have no expectations about this stamp..other than a conversation piece, and who knows, a surprise to the next owner.
I had no Sardinia stamps and no plans to acquire any. So my page will display this stamp with a question mark. While I am puzzled, I won't spend the money to get it expertized..I think the color may detract from its full value irrespective of authenticity.
As I said, Italy is of marginal interest to me, and my collection is full of (easy to fill) voids, when I have time.
Given all these early stamps I just found, more than I know what to do, I will share the extras on Approvals in the near future, at very reasonable prices and work on the pre 1930 time period. However, my principal interest are the Ottoman Empire related occupation stamps, and I have yet to devote any real time to them. or own many.

At the next big Westpex show, I may take Sardinia #6 (???) along to get an off the cuff expert opinion.

Still, it was totally unexpected, and quite a surprise, given the condition of the rest of the envelopes..old stamps, but not in pritine condition, and requiring lots of work.
rrr...

Mitch: Thanks for the link. No dot after the C at the bottom, but a faint bar. Would make it a Sorano or Genoa counterfiet! Too good to be true! Nah...never had any expectations.
rrr..

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

04 May 2016
11:22:51pm
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

I would agree that your stamp compares better to the genuine than the forgery. Also the embossing seems to be more distinct on the original than the forged stamp, as you have said your is. It appears to me that your image is a photograph instead of a scan? If so a scan should give a better reproduction of the stamp. I think Scott is very lacking in not noting that the stamp is embossed on colored paper, for someone who does not know this it would be very confusing. I would not doubt that yours is an original as it is only A $900 catalog stamp which is not really that much in the scheme of things. The forgeries might even be more scarce than the originals

I have a similar stamp from Two Sicilies that I have wondered about ever since I got it in an Italian States lot many years ago. I have no doubt the stamp is genuine but the cancel is where the doubt comes in. Mint the stamp catalogs for a mere $45 but used the catalog value is whopping $11,000. Looking at the cancel most people would not give a second thought as it looks like you might expect it would but the price difference gives the forger much incentive. When it comes to getting things certified I suffer much from procrastination.

1861 Two Sicilies 50g Gray, embossed center and lithographed frame. Fault free with decent margins.
Image Not Found

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rrraphy
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant

05 May 2016
01:32:33am
re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Looking carefully at the website you provided for forgeries of Italian stamps, I must say it is not as I hoped for..lol.
Looking with magnifying glasses (my microscope is not working) I must say: No dot after the C at the bottom, but also a faint bar.
That would make it a Sorano or Genoa counterfiet!
I will still have someone look at it one day.

Too good to be true! Nah...never had any expectations.
rrr..

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
        

 

Author/Postings

Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
03 May 2016
04:06:15am

In this envelope of early Italian stamps that I have recovered from that infamous basement box, (stamps are circa mid 1800s to very early 1900s, most of the stamps are Italy and are pre-Scott # 150), there seem to be a surprise.
Embossed imperf 40 c King Victor Emmanuel II looking very much like a Sardinia Embossed center (Scott A1 design) from the 1850s. But it is colorless as you can see from the attached scan (two photos enhanced to get a better idea) and no hint of any original color.
Nice wide 4 margins by the way!
So, what do you think it is, and how can I make sure. I tried sharpening the picture, shining light though, using fluorescent lighting, etc..but nothing reveals any color. Could it have been a proof?

The stamps in the envelope were just clipped, or actually peeled off envelopes or old albums, and stored away. Many did come from old albums given the hinges and glue..but not from a professional collection given their condition and how they were mounted with layers of hinges on stamps still attached to some envelope backing), so I don't think anyone had tried to play a game. This stamp had Italy scribbled in a bleu pencil on the back, and no hinge remnants.

Most of the other stamps required soaking, and had not been looked at in at least 50 years... so I am confident this one too is real..but what is it? Definitely genuine is my opinion and I did not soak it either.

So what do you think? And how can I get a better sense of what it really is?

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

Puzzled...
rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
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khj

03 May 2016
04:17:00am

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Well, I can see that both the vignette and inscriptions are embossed.

Check to see if you have a faded Scott Sardinia #6(1853), the 40c pale rose. Both the vignette & inscriptions were embossed on this issue, unlike the 1855 issue in which the frame is typographed.

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ikeyPikey

03 May 2016
11:12:55am

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

"... had not been looked at in at least 50 years... so I am confident this one too is real ..."



I'm not sure that this is a reliable test.

Collectors back in the day were much more forgiving about including replicas in their collections.

I hope it turns out to be quite the find!

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
Like
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"I collect stamps today precisely the way I collected stamps when I was ten years old."

Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
03 May 2016
12:34:49pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Thanks for the look. Very helpful.
I must agree with both of you. First, yes it cannot be anything but Sardinia Sc #6 pale rose (really pale...Laughing ). and yes, one can never be sure. This is both a collector heaven and a nightmare...so many older stamps cramped in one envelope...so many abused and damaged...and yet many finds too... I washed 100 stamps yesterday, selecting what I thought were the more interesting ones, and this morning, I found another 50 or so worth a good bath!

As I look through it all, I now see many overprints with Constantinople, para o/p, perfins, and unusual cancelations (What is this ??ELOUAN-ON??), etc...which makes sense since part of this Italian family was Jewish living under the Ottoman Empire's protection prior to its fall.
Cancelations are also interesting, and many seem to be from the early 1920s. Penny Kim, you would appreciate it! Look at the attached photos of what I am going through!
Image Not Found Image Not Found Image Not Found


I wish I had more expertise about Italian stamps, as I am sure going to miss a lot. Italy is an area I am just beginning to pay attention to.
For that Sardinia #6, I initially thought it was a piece of stamp envelope backing, but was lucky enough not to junk it, and it motivated me to look very carefully through the rest, which I had labeled "kids collection remnants".

rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
03 May 2016
06:17:22pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

RRR, I think your stamps is indeed a Sardinia #6. The stamp were not printed with ink but embossed on colored thru paper. If so the back of the stamp should at least have traces of Pink to Rose on it. No doubt the pale color could have been altered in different ways.
Below is a scan of my #5 which is the only one I have of the set of 3. You can see how the color runs through the paper and is not printed in ink.
Next stop for me is to soak those hinge remnants off while it's out of the book.

Image Not Found

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mitch.seymourfamily. ...
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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
03 May 2016
07:38:55pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

rrr, My Italian collection shows all but 3 stamps thru 1980. By referring to it you should find it the easiest way of sorting the stamps you have. Also check Italian possessions for overprints.

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this post

mitch.seymourfamily. ...

Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
04 May 2016
01:11:42am

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Very helpful Mitch!

On another subject, where did you hide your Andorra?

rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
04 May 2016
02:41:14am

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

My Andorra is pretty weak as I have not concentrated on it yet.
Is there any Reddish tinting to the back of that Sardinian stamp?

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mitch.seymourfamily. ...

Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
04 May 2016
12:34:43pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Mitch: The paper has a pinkish..or I would say fleshy tint to it throughout. Not what I would call pink, nor light pink...more like flesh color...but very light. Indeed as you state, it is the paper and not the print that has color, which is why I thought it was colorless. The stamp is embossed, with good relief and very distinctive features. rrr...

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"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
04 May 2016
04:18:04pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Below is a copy of a genuine example and below that a forgery that I found on the website whose link follows. The forgery appears to be excellent and I would not want to hazard a guess which yours is. Obviously it would require expertizing to know what you have.
Here is the site on Italian States: http://www.forgeriesofitalianstates.com/Sardinia/Sardinia.htm

Image Not Found

Image Not Found



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mitch.seymourfamily. ...

Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
04 May 2016
10:11:40pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Thanks Mitch.
The first stamp's color is fleshier than the counterfiet one....would be more like mine, if any color still showed properly on mine.
I have no expectations about this stamp..other than a conversation piece, and who knows, a surprise to the next owner.
I had no Sardinia stamps and no plans to acquire any. So my page will display this stamp with a question mark. While I am puzzled, I won't spend the money to get it expertized..I think the color may detract from its full value irrespective of authenticity.
As I said, Italy is of marginal interest to me, and my collection is full of (easy to fill) voids, when I have time.
Given all these early stamps I just found, more than I know what to do, I will share the extras on Approvals in the near future, at very reasonable prices and work on the pre 1930 time period. However, my principal interest are the Ottoman Empire related occupation stamps, and I have yet to devote any real time to them. or own many.

At the next big Westpex show, I may take Sardinia #6 (???) along to get an off the cuff expert opinion.

Still, it was totally unexpected, and quite a surprise, given the condition of the rest of the envelopes..old stamps, but not in pritine condition, and requiring lots of work.
rrr...

Mitch: Thanks for the link. No dot after the C at the bottom, but a faint bar. Would make it a Sorano or Genoa counterfiet! Too good to be true! Nah...never had any expectations.
rrr..

Like
Login to Like
this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
Members Picture
AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
04 May 2016
11:22:51pm

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

I would agree that your stamp compares better to the genuine than the forgery. Also the embossing seems to be more distinct on the original than the forged stamp, as you have said your is. It appears to me that your image is a photograph instead of a scan? If so a scan should give a better reproduction of the stamp. I think Scott is very lacking in not noting that the stamp is embossed on colored paper, for someone who does not know this it would be very confusing. I would not doubt that yours is an original as it is only A $900 catalog stamp which is not really that much in the scheme of things. The forgeries might even be more scarce than the originals

I have a similar stamp from Two Sicilies that I have wondered about ever since I got it in an Italian States lot many years ago. I have no doubt the stamp is genuine but the cancel is where the doubt comes in. Mint the stamp catalogs for a mere $45 but used the catalog value is whopping $11,000. Looking at the cancel most people would not give a second thought as it looks like you might expect it would but the price difference gives the forger much incentive. When it comes to getting things certified I suffer much from procrastination.

1861 Two Sicilies 50g Gray, embossed center and lithographed frame. Fault free with decent margins.
Image Not Found

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mitch.seymourfamily. ...

Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
05 May 2016
01:32:33am

re: Italy mystery colorless stamp. Any idea?

Looking carefully at the website you provided for forgeries of Italian stamps, I must say it is not as I hoped for..lol.
Looking with magnifying glasses (my microscope is not working) I must say: No dot after the C at the bottom, but also a faint bar.
That would make it a Sorano or Genoa counterfiet!
I will still have someone look at it one day.

Too good to be true! Nah...never had any expectations.
rrr..

Like
Login to Like
this post

"E. Rutherford: All science is either physics or stamp collecting."
        

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