Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I also have an issue with how best to mount the stamps in a series where the only difference is the watermark. Displaying the exact same face of the "different" stamps with a notation "Wmk 253" and "Wmk 257" seems ridiculous, especially if showing this to someone else - who's to know unless you remove them and check?
In one case (e.g. Great Britain Queen Elizabeth SG 515- Series) I decided just to keep a page with one of each denomination, regardless of watermark. But I'm rethinking that by having a page for each watermark issue with a "benchmark" stamp mounted at the top showing the gum side - with the watermark clearly visible - and a supporting note on the watermark.
NOW FOR THE QUESTIONS
When I previously raised the issue of grills on US stamps, a great idea came up to smudge some pencil scratchings on a page with your finger then lightly rub the back of the stamp. Shazzam! The grill appeared beautifully and the carbon can be carefully erased if needed.
Can you do the same with watermarks so they can be "temporarily/permanently seen?
What about applying a very diluted watercolor paint lightly brushed on the gum side?
Any other possibilities to achieve the objective (show the watermark) without also diluting the value of the stamp?
I realize I could use a picture of the watermark, but it's just not the same thing for me.
Many thanks, Dave.
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You can take a picture of the watermark while the stamp is submersed in fluid. Lighting and timing are critical. You can take a picture through a Sign-o-scope with the proper camera attachments.
I don't believe that there is a way to permanently show the watermark in the back of the actual stamp itself without damaging the stamp. Some watermarks can be readily seen when the stamp is placed on a black background, most cannot.
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To me watermarks can be integral parts of studying issues. However, most general albums do not provide separate spaces for different watermarked sets. But ALL specialized albums do so. Watermarks can make for large variances in catalog values.
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Hi Dave;
I too have had difficulty seeing some of these elusive watermarks.
Someone on here used light shone onto the fronts of stamps and an acute angle, so as to cast a shadow of the raised ink ridges and reveal that the subject stamp was engraved.
If you could get a piece of black plastic that is flat and doesn't have sides, like watermark trays do, try this;
1) first set up the flat black item, be it glass or plastic, and the light source at that small angle, say 5-10º. Place the stamp on the black item so that the stamp is very well illuminated. Turn all room lighting off.
2) Begin to look for the watermark without fluid first. Try looking at it by gazing, as tho your eyes are focused at something past the plane that the stamp is in. I found this sometimes helps to spot things and as your eyes start to focus, suddenly the object just materializes.
3) Now add a couple drops of fluid, one drop at a time. Some watermarks are only visible for a few seconds until the fluid has soaked thru, then it fades away somewhat. By adding fluid very slowly, it may help to make it visible for a longer time.
You can probably use an old black plastic Vario type stock page, just tear the pockets off and use the black parts.
I haven't tried any of these ideas, except gazing thru the plane that the stamp is in.
If any of these crazy ideas help, do get back and share with us how you did it. Maybe some photos of your setup, so we can duplicate it.
Taking photos of the stamp very quickly as the fluid soaks in, that could be studied later, may give you time to study the stamp for a longer period of time. Kinda like freezing time to study the image. Also if you load those photos into an image editor, tweak the contrast/brightness may improve the results. Lighting and contrast, I think is the key here.
Good luck....
TuskenRaider
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08:46:14am
" .... Try looking at it by gazing, as tho your eyes are focused at something past the plane that the stamp is in. I found this sometimes helps to spot things and as your eyes start to focus, suddenly the object just materializes ...."
Each eye has a blind spot where the blood vessels and optic nerve attaches to the retina. That is why look-outs on a ship at sea, are trained to focus their vision just above the horizon, especially at night . The brain, clever devil that it is, creates an image of what it thinks you would see from memory and side vision.
You can see this effect while reading when the brain supplies a missing lettr to complete a sentence. In fact, faster than a speeding bullet the brain sorts through potential letters, such as "a, e, i, o, and u" choosing "e" because it makes the best sense.
There is a small group of somewhat faint stars that we call the Pleiades that are sometimes hard to find. Were I to draw a simple star map to show you where to look you might not see them easily, no matter how hard you stare, but shifting your focal point a little bit up or down and the Seven Sisters will pop to view, ( Six of them anyway.) A person might wonder why that happened. It is all related to the fact that for some reason the blood vessels and optic nerve attach in the front of the retina intead of at the rear where they would not obstruct the field of vision.
So, with the stamp immersed in the drops of the fluid of choic just force your eyes to focus off the center of the stamp and quite often the watermark will be revealed in all its glory.
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I don't think permanently altering a stamp to display its watermark on an album page is a good idea. Rubbing charcoal might work for grills, but not for watermarks. Watercolor is a bad idea.
Using a small picture of the watermark on the page is a good one. I use such pictures in my stock book and its common in some albums. My usage is sloppy, but I've seen some nice homemade pages with the watermark on the page.
I organized my stamps by Watermark, then by perforation, then by set, with color variants. Here are some examples of stock book pages in progress for duplicates of the early Hungarian Letter and Crown stamps (used stamps only at this point). Sorry for the poor quality images. The first page in this series is the non-watermark sets, which are not shown.
The first pic below shows stamps with the "Kr" in Oval watermark, shown in a small pic in the bottom right corner. Second pic shows a page of the stamps from the same series but with Crown in Oval WM.
"Kr" in Oval
"Crown" in Oval
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A black watermark tray (this picture shows one that has a perf gauge combo), and clarity fluid is what I use, I am sure there are many other brands. I can usually see the watermark ... unless the stamp is damaged, or there is no watermark.
I'm not saying I haven't gone partially blind trying to make out watermarks on some of the more difficult examples.
Cheers,
Eric
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How strange, I was just reading an article a few minutes ago and came across this statement:
"Clarity is the recommended fluid and was developed at the request of the APS."
Haven't used it myself, as no doubt we can't get this stuff in our quaint little country. But I have one of those Lindner perf/watermark boxes and it's the bees hairy knees.
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Thanks for all the great feedback. Got to organize my "Canada MNH Block Party" mailings then it's 2 weeks of nothing but Germania and Hindenburg watermark analysis...
I did test one idea (light/shade and looking in the opposite direction, or something like that) and had a bit of success. Will try some more things and update with findings. Tried to take some pictures but my wife has used the camera's memory card with holiday snaps so...
Cheers, Dave.
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Lewis, your stockbook is most impressive! I am taking notes...
-Steve
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Thanks Steve. I am currently re-organizing from the beginning as I have so much material to merge, properly identify, and reorganize. What you see here is really just one of a few temporary staging areas that will eventually result in hopefully a single organized collection of specialized material, with duplicates where it makes sense (varieties of color/WM etc., cancellations, maybe some plating).
For Hungarian material, stamps, I have a few collections, as well as a stock book of mint and a stock book of used, resulting from previous attempts to organize, and semi-organized partially identified stamps in glassines that are all feeding (slowly) into these Vario pages. These pages here will be wiped out and replaced soon. I am currently working on the 1872 Franz Josef issues so the Crown and Letter series is next.
I hope that I can reduce what I have to two collections: the best material in an album collection (e.g., the best pieces of each variety) and the specialized material (mostly classic) in stock pages. Eventually then I can get rid of some of this stuff.
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10:59:29pm
I've been searching for a way to scan the stamp and use graphic software to try to invert the stamp in the hopes of being able to see the watermarks. I recall some time ago someone mentioned success with this but I can't find it in search of the site.
As you know, it is impossible for me to see a watermark and it limits me to identify stamps particularly Australian States, etc. The lozenge watermark of pre-war Germany are easy to see and most of the time you can eliminate them to find the unwatermarked and swastika watermarks.
I really am interested to hear from anyone who has used scanning and software to identify watermarks. I have to zoom everything to minimum 400-500% to see it and obviously there's no physical way of doing this in the conventional methods.
Watermark identification is definitely something that I would like to hear more of - aside from conventional methods.
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I have not tried this myself, although I intend to:
1. Place stamp face up on scanner.
2. Squirt some watermark fluid on it.
3. Place a black stock card (or better still, a black plastic card) over the stamp.
4. Scan.
5. Clean scanner glass.
I have seen the results of one experiment; and it worked. This may prove to be the simplest method around.
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I use various magnifications, but usually 3x to 10x for watermarks. When a mark shows up clearly through manual magnification, I take a photo with a digital camera in macro mode and size it to make the watermark visible. Then I add arrows and add the image, along with a diagram of the orientation, to the album page.
Here is an example:
Lars
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Well here's my first 'success'. Had to modify the method a bit though:
This is a watermark variety: CC over Crown.
My method was:
1. Insert stamp into a black Hawid mount.
2. Squirt fluid between the black backing and the clear front.
3. Squeeze air bubbles out.
4. Lay mount onto scanner glass, leaving lid open.
5. Place a solid heavyish object over mount (to prevent air from getting in).
6. Set my scanner media to 'Grey' (Gray); resolution to 1200.
7. Scan.
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Hi Ningpo;
Thank you for sharing that, and the investment in time you spent to develop this. It looks like a great way to study these, even for us old goats with weak eyesight.
I know I can see just fine, but was a lot better at this when I was 20. My Mentor Bill Hathaway, helped me as a teen to appreciate a hobby like stamps. He would reward me with a fistful of WW stamps, and all he asked was for me to sort thru Typographed, Lithographed, Photogravure, and Engraved stamps for him as his eyes were just too old to do so.
In exchange for my time I got tons of common material, and a great mentor and friend. Sometimes he would have his wife fix us cookies and serve them warm with milk. Many great weekend afternoons spent in those days.
Just memories....
TuskenRaider
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09:40:56am
Thanks so much for that info on scanning. I'll definitely give it a try!
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I, and I think others, have mentioned the retroReveal.org website before. You can scan or photograph stamps (read the retroReveal instructions) and upload them for analysis. The site has been up for a few years and it's free for now.
Their software applies several different techniques to analyze your stamps. It is a quick process and, once the process finishes, you can scroll through all of the results to see if one or more of the analyses gives you what you were looking for.
Here is the first page of the "Upload Gallery." http://retroreveal.org/images I've looked through the first 20 pages for an example of a stamp where the individual may have been looking for a watermark. On page 15 (try this link: http://retroreveal.org/images/ss/17450) is one possible example. A better example (http://retroreveal.org/images/ss/15823) is found on page 20.
There are two more examples of watermark analyses on page 32 and there may be several more in the remaining 56 pages of examples.
To view the results from the software processing, just click on any image and then scroll down through all of the output images. Most will be worthless, but you only need one or two good ones to find what you were looking for. There are no guarantees. The process doesn't always produce helpful results, but has helped me on many occasions read text on vintage postcards and cancels on stamps that I could not otherwise read.
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I like Ningpo's method. Pretty simple and you have a record afterwards. Exactly what was called for. This methods merits further experimentation.
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Here's my second attempt using a different stamp. This time the watermark is a normal Crown CC. The light patches are tiny air bubbles, which despite all my efforts tend to reform. That is why I mentioned placing a weight on top of the Hawid mount.
In this instance I used a small book with a glossy binding and as the scan was in progress, I put pressure with my hand on the book. This helps prevent bubbles forming but does not eliminate them.
I have tried all manner of settings on my scanning software (Vuescan - Standard) and nothing else worked.
Although the results are quite respectable, I have serious doubts that this technique will work on some coloured papers.
My next experiment will be to replace the book with a small, thinner object which might enable me to force the air bubbles out, under finger pressure.
Keesindy has mentioned Retroreveal. Now I have used this countless times for mainly postmark or stamp repair identification. On the few occasions I've tried watermark detection, I've drawn a complete blank. Perhaps Retroreveal works better on certain types of paper, than that which I possess. It has other capabilities beyond the basic 'load the image and process' function, such as playing around with 'channels' but such complexities are really meant for those that know what the are doing.
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11:35:02pm
Did you put the stamp in the mount with the back of the stamp facing the scanner? Watermark fluid on both sides of the stamp? Just clarifying. I plan to try this some time in the next week.
Many thanks for your experiments to help us out.
I must say that everyone has given me many different types of suggestions and help so that I can still enjoy my collecting. This past year I was ready to throw up my hands but now I know there's always some way to find a solution and you guys have really helped a lot.
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Firstly Kelly, I use a lighter fluid can, which has the advantage of a thin flip up spout. If you use watermark fluid and the bottle has just a cap, then I would suggest using a pipette, or even a small artist paint brush.
1. Have the scanner ready with lid up and your scanner application ready to preview/scan. The quicker you can do the whole operation the better.
2. Insert stamp into mount with the back of the stamp facing you, through the transparent film.
3. Lift and hold transparent film with thumb.
4. Apply fluid, either to the surface facing you, or apply it underneath the stamp. It doesn't really make much difference as the fluid penetrates and tends to spread.
5. Smooth the transparent film to remove air bubbles, with your thumb and fingers.
6. Place mount on the scanner with the black surface facing you. (So you can't see the stamp).
7. Set a flat small object onto the mount and ideally apply finger pressure.
8. Preview and set cropping margins.
9. Scan.
If you have trouble understanding my instructions, just shout.
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I have recently re-acquired a Morley-Bright roll-tector which is a great non-fluid watermark detection device. It also presents a depiction of watermark which can be scanned.
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Rjan,
Congratulations on actually finding one of these. I have two, and a Morley Bright Instatector. At the moment it is impossible to find replacement ink sachets. I've posted about these devices before and my main criticism was the poor quality of the replacement ink sachets; when you could find them.
I have had a mixture of results using these. Generally, I found them to be useless for certain QEII Annigoni issues, where the paper thickness varies. Coloured papers were a nightmare, again because of paper thickness.
They did work well on many other stamps though.
As you point out, if you can get the watermark to show, these do enable you to take photographs.
I guess there is no perfect detection mechanism or technique (yet). Even the very expensive electric devices have limitations.
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Ningpo, re your Morley, see the cws site mentioned in Kelly's post. They have ink sachets at $10.95 Canadian.
http://www.collectorssupplyhouse.com/s_acces/g_wmfluid.htm
But their mounts are more expensive than Subway.
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Thanks Sheepshanks for the link. It is very strange that even the Morley Bright website had nothing in stock when I last looked a few weeks ago. It has been like that for ages. Nothing on eBay either.
So why are they available abroad and not here in the UK where they are based?
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Hi Ningpo, cannot give you a definite answer on that one but according to the website
"Not currently available
Unfortunately the manufacturer of the white base plate has gone out of business
and it is not known at this time if the product will continue.
"
Actually they seem to have ink for sale on their website
http://www.michaelkay.co.uk/watermark-detectors/morley-bright-inst-a-tector-watermark-detector.htm#
Maybe try ordering some and see if you get a "sorry out of stock reply"
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Thanks old chap. Tried to add one to the cart but still out of stock. Marvellous.
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Got a chance to test out Clive's process. Here's a stamp I had about 10 copies of - the unwatermarked #771 is CV $0.25 while the watermarked #772A is $11.00 (used). None of them had a watermark (or so I thought) so one was mounted in my album and all the extras were in my "sell for 5c" envelope.
I used Clive's technique but couldn't see a clear watermark on any. I then dug out a bunch of homemade mounts that were used for each of the 100 or so U.S. blocks I recently sold (and hadn't gotten around to throwing out. The backing is some kind of coated paper, so semi-permeable. My guess was that it might "bond" with the paper of the stamp rather than being a "sold barrier" behind it, and I wondered if that might somehow make any watermarks more evident. I trimmed it to a more manageable size and tested two particular stamps.
I didn't fuss with this at all, just put the stamps in and squirted some lighter fluid. Sure enough, the stamp "adhered" nicely to the dark backing paper, so in to the scanner they went, as is. (Although not necessary as I could see this watermark without needing the scanner). Here's the result.
Pretty nice exposure of the valuable watermark I'd say. The backing paper holds the moisture nicely so less fluid is needed for subsequent tests (after a few I just put the stamps in and pressed on them to squeeze some existing fluid out of the saturated backing paper).
Because papers and watermark impressions will vary I also did a post-production manual adjustment of various components (using the color management sliders) such as tint, saturation, sepia hues, sharpness, etc. Some helped on this one more than others. For comparison, here's the same scan but with higher contrast. Even better!
I like these homemade mounts better than using a nice vario sheet or similar smaller presentation mounts.
Thanks for the idea Clive!
Dave.
, even after try
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12:44:00am
Dave -
My apologies for a simply question. The stamps on the left show the watermark and the stamps on the right show the stamp front side up?
Kelly
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Both stamps show the gum side of the stamp. But this method really lets the face side "show through" as well. I think it actually helps discern the watermark as it is a better "contrast" with what is printed on the stamp.
Dave.
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02:22:12pm
Ok now I see what you mean. Thanks. 😃
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I have been experiencing great difficulties in discerning watermarks. In part it is inexperience, but also lack of patience and focus in this time-consuming (yet potentially lucrative) effort. Also, sniffing lighter fluid fumes is also mildly pleasurable, but then grossly disorienting after a while...
I also have an issue with how best to mount the stamps in a series where the only difference is the watermark. Displaying the exact same face of the "different" stamps with a notation "Wmk 253" and "Wmk 257" seems ridiculous, especially if showing this to someone else - who's to know unless you remove them and check?
In one case (e.g. Great Britain Queen Elizabeth SG 515- Series) I decided just to keep a page with one of each denomination, regardless of watermark. But I'm rethinking that by having a page for each watermark issue with a "benchmark" stamp mounted at the top showing the gum side - with the watermark clearly visible - and a supporting note on the watermark.
NOW FOR THE QUESTIONS
When I previously raised the issue of grills on US stamps, a great idea came up to smudge some pencil scratchings on a page with your finger then lightly rub the back of the stamp. Shazzam! The grill appeared beautifully and the carbon can be carefully erased if needed.
Can you do the same with watermarks so they can be "temporarily/permanently seen?
What about applying a very diluted watercolor paint lightly brushed on the gum side?
Any other possibilities to achieve the objective (show the watermark) without also diluting the value of the stamp?
I realize I could use a picture of the watermark, but it's just not the same thing for me.
Many thanks, Dave.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
You can take a picture of the watermark while the stamp is submersed in fluid. Lighting and timing are critical. You can take a picture through a Sign-o-scope with the proper camera attachments.
I don't believe that there is a way to permanently show the watermark in the back of the actual stamp itself without damaging the stamp. Some watermarks can be readily seen when the stamp is placed on a black background, most cannot.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
To me watermarks can be integral parts of studying issues. However, most general albums do not provide separate spaces for different watermarked sets. But ALL specialized albums do so. Watermarks can make for large variances in catalog values.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Hi Dave;
I too have had difficulty seeing some of these elusive watermarks.
Someone on here used light shone onto the fronts of stamps and an acute angle, so as to cast a shadow of the raised ink ridges and reveal that the subject stamp was engraved.
If you could get a piece of black plastic that is flat and doesn't have sides, like watermark trays do, try this;
1) first set up the flat black item, be it glass or plastic, and the light source at that small angle, say 5-10º. Place the stamp on the black item so that the stamp is very well illuminated. Turn all room lighting off.
2) Begin to look for the watermark without fluid first. Try looking at it by gazing, as tho your eyes are focused at something past the plane that the stamp is in. I found this sometimes helps to spot things and as your eyes start to focus, suddenly the object just materializes.
3) Now add a couple drops of fluid, one drop at a time. Some watermarks are only visible for a few seconds until the fluid has soaked thru, then it fades away somewhat. By adding fluid very slowly, it may help to make it visible for a longer time.
You can probably use an old black plastic Vario type stock page, just tear the pockets off and use the black parts.
I haven't tried any of these ideas, except gazing thru the plane that the stamp is in.
If any of these crazy ideas help, do get back and share with us how you did it. Maybe some photos of your setup, so we can duplicate it.
Taking photos of the stamp very quickly as the fluid soaks in, that could be studied later, may give you time to study the stamp for a longer period of time. Kinda like freezing time to study the image. Also if you load those photos into an image editor, tweak the contrast/brightness may improve the results. Lighting and contrast, I think is the key here.
Good luck....
TuskenRaider
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30 Oct 2016
08:46:14am
re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
" .... Try looking at it by gazing, as tho your eyes are focused at something past the plane that the stamp is in. I found this sometimes helps to spot things and as your eyes start to focus, suddenly the object just materializes ...."
Each eye has a blind spot where the blood vessels and optic nerve attaches to the retina. That is why look-outs on a ship at sea, are trained to focus their vision just above the horizon, especially at night . The brain, clever devil that it is, creates an image of what it thinks you would see from memory and side vision.
You can see this effect while reading when the brain supplies a missing lettr to complete a sentence. In fact, faster than a speeding bullet the brain sorts through potential letters, such as "a, e, i, o, and u" choosing "e" because it makes the best sense.
There is a small group of somewhat faint stars that we call the Pleiades that are sometimes hard to find. Were I to draw a simple star map to show you where to look you might not see them easily, no matter how hard you stare, but shifting your focal point a little bit up or down and the Seven Sisters will pop to view, ( Six of them anyway.) A person might wonder why that happened. It is all related to the fact that for some reason the blood vessels and optic nerve attach in the front of the retina intead of at the rear where they would not obstruct the field of vision.
So, with the stamp immersed in the drops of the fluid of choic just force your eyes to focus off the center of the stamp and quite often the watermark will be revealed in all its glory.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I don't think permanently altering a stamp to display its watermark on an album page is a good idea. Rubbing charcoal might work for grills, but not for watermarks. Watercolor is a bad idea.
Using a small picture of the watermark on the page is a good one. I use such pictures in my stock book and its common in some albums. My usage is sloppy, but I've seen some nice homemade pages with the watermark on the page.
I organized my stamps by Watermark, then by perforation, then by set, with color variants. Here are some examples of stock book pages in progress for duplicates of the early Hungarian Letter and Crown stamps (used stamps only at this point). Sorry for the poor quality images. The first page in this series is the non-watermark sets, which are not shown.
The first pic below shows stamps with the "Kr" in Oval watermark, shown in a small pic in the bottom right corner. Second pic shows a page of the stamps from the same series but with Crown in Oval WM.
"Kr" in Oval
"Crown" in Oval
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
A black watermark tray (this picture shows one that has a perf gauge combo), and clarity fluid is what I use, I am sure there are many other brands. I can usually see the watermark ... unless the stamp is damaged, or there is no watermark.
I'm not saying I haven't gone partially blind trying to make out watermarks on some of the more difficult examples.
Cheers,
Eric
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
How strange, I was just reading an article a few minutes ago and came across this statement:
"Clarity is the recommended fluid and was developed at the request of the APS."
Haven't used it myself, as no doubt we can't get this stuff in our quaint little country. But I have one of those Lindner perf/watermark boxes and it's the bees hairy knees.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Thanks for all the great feedback. Got to organize my "Canada MNH Block Party" mailings then it's 2 weeks of nothing but Germania and Hindenburg watermark analysis...
I did test one idea (light/shade and looking in the opposite direction, or something like that) and had a bit of success. Will try some more things and update with findings. Tried to take some pictures but my wife has used the camera's memory card with holiday snaps so...
Cheers, Dave.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Lewis, your stockbook is most impressive! I am taking notes...
-Steve
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Thanks Steve. I am currently re-organizing from the beginning as I have so much material to merge, properly identify, and reorganize. What you see here is really just one of a few temporary staging areas that will eventually result in hopefully a single organized collection of specialized material, with duplicates where it makes sense (varieties of color/WM etc., cancellations, maybe some plating).
For Hungarian material, stamps, I have a few collections, as well as a stock book of mint and a stock book of used, resulting from previous attempts to organize, and semi-organized partially identified stamps in glassines that are all feeding (slowly) into these Vario pages. These pages here will be wiped out and replaced soon. I am currently working on the 1872 Franz Josef issues so the Crown and Letter series is next.
I hope that I can reduce what I have to two collections: the best material in an album collection (e.g., the best pieces of each variety) and the specialized material (mostly classic) in stock pages. Eventually then I can get rid of some of this stuff.
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31 Oct 2016
10:59:29pm
re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I've been searching for a way to scan the stamp and use graphic software to try to invert the stamp in the hopes of being able to see the watermarks. I recall some time ago someone mentioned success with this but I can't find it in search of the site.
As you know, it is impossible for me to see a watermark and it limits me to identify stamps particularly Australian States, etc. The lozenge watermark of pre-war Germany are easy to see and most of the time you can eliminate them to find the unwatermarked and swastika watermarks.
I really am interested to hear from anyone who has used scanning and software to identify watermarks. I have to zoom everything to minimum 400-500% to see it and obviously there's no physical way of doing this in the conventional methods.
Watermark identification is definitely something that I would like to hear more of - aside from conventional methods.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I have not tried this myself, although I intend to:
1. Place stamp face up on scanner.
2. Squirt some watermark fluid on it.
3. Place a black stock card (or better still, a black plastic card) over the stamp.
4. Scan.
5. Clean scanner glass.
I have seen the results of one experiment; and it worked. This may prove to be the simplest method around.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I use various magnifications, but usually 3x to 10x for watermarks. When a mark shows up clearly through manual magnification, I take a photo with a digital camera in macro mode and size it to make the watermark visible. Then I add arrows and add the image, along with a diagram of the orientation, to the album page.
Here is an example:
Lars
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Well here's my first 'success'. Had to modify the method a bit though:
This is a watermark variety: CC over Crown.
My method was:
1. Insert stamp into a black Hawid mount.
2. Squirt fluid between the black backing and the clear front.
3. Squeeze air bubbles out.
4. Lay mount onto scanner glass, leaving lid open.
5. Place a solid heavyish object over mount (to prevent air from getting in).
6. Set my scanner media to 'Grey' (Gray); resolution to 1200.
7. Scan.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Hi Ningpo;
Thank you for sharing that, and the investment in time you spent to develop this. It looks like a great way to study these, even for us old goats with weak eyesight.
I know I can see just fine, but was a lot better at this when I was 20. My Mentor Bill Hathaway, helped me as a teen to appreciate a hobby like stamps. He would reward me with a fistful of WW stamps, and all he asked was for me to sort thru Typographed, Lithographed, Photogravure, and Engraved stamps for him as his eyes were just too old to do so.
In exchange for my time I got tons of common material, and a great mentor and friend. Sometimes he would have his wife fix us cookies and serve them warm with milk. Many great weekend afternoons spent in those days.
Just memories....
TuskenRaider
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
01 Nov 2016
09:40:56am
re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Thanks so much for that info on scanning. I'll definitely give it a try!
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I, and I think others, have mentioned the retroReveal.org website before. You can scan or photograph stamps (read the retroReveal instructions) and upload them for analysis. The site has been up for a few years and it's free for now.
Their software applies several different techniques to analyze your stamps. It is a quick process and, once the process finishes, you can scroll through all of the results to see if one or more of the analyses gives you what you were looking for.
Here is the first page of the "Upload Gallery." http://retroreveal.org/images I've looked through the first 20 pages for an example of a stamp where the individual may have been looking for a watermark. On page 15 (try this link: http://retroreveal.org/images/ss/17450) is one possible example. A better example (http://retroreveal.org/images/ss/15823) is found on page 20.
There are two more examples of watermark analyses on page 32 and there may be several more in the remaining 56 pages of examples.
To view the results from the software processing, just click on any image and then scroll down through all of the output images. Most will be worthless, but you only need one or two good ones to find what you were looking for. There are no guarantees. The process doesn't always produce helpful results, but has helped me on many occasions read text on vintage postcards and cancels on stamps that I could not otherwise read.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I like Ningpo's method. Pretty simple and you have a record afterwards. Exactly what was called for. This methods merits further experimentation.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Here's my second attempt using a different stamp. This time the watermark is a normal Crown CC. The light patches are tiny air bubbles, which despite all my efforts tend to reform. That is why I mentioned placing a weight on top of the Hawid mount.
In this instance I used a small book with a glossy binding and as the scan was in progress, I put pressure with my hand on the book. This helps prevent bubbles forming but does not eliminate them.
I have tried all manner of settings on my scanning software (Vuescan - Standard) and nothing else worked.
Although the results are quite respectable, I have serious doubts that this technique will work on some coloured papers.
My next experiment will be to replace the book with a small, thinner object which might enable me to force the air bubbles out, under finger pressure.
Keesindy has mentioned Retroreveal. Now I have used this countless times for mainly postmark or stamp repair identification. On the few occasions I've tried watermark detection, I've drawn a complete blank. Perhaps Retroreveal works better on certain types of paper, than that which I possess. It has other capabilities beyond the basic 'load the image and process' function, such as playing around with 'channels' but such complexities are really meant for those that know what the are doing.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
01 Nov 2016
11:35:02pm
re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Did you put the stamp in the mount with the back of the stamp facing the scanner? Watermark fluid on both sides of the stamp? Just clarifying. I plan to try this some time in the next week.
Many thanks for your experiments to help us out.
I must say that everyone has given me many different types of suggestions and help so that I can still enjoy my collecting. This past year I was ready to throw up my hands but now I know there's always some way to find a solution and you guys have really helped a lot.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Firstly Kelly, I use a lighter fluid can, which has the advantage of a thin flip up spout. If you use watermark fluid and the bottle has just a cap, then I would suggest using a pipette, or even a small artist paint brush.
1. Have the scanner ready with lid up and your scanner application ready to preview/scan. The quicker you can do the whole operation the better.
2. Insert stamp into mount with the back of the stamp facing you, through the transparent film.
3. Lift and hold transparent film with thumb.
4. Apply fluid, either to the surface facing you, or apply it underneath the stamp. It doesn't really make much difference as the fluid penetrates and tends to spread.
5. Smooth the transparent film to remove air bubbles, with your thumb and fingers.
6. Place mount on the scanner with the black surface facing you. (So you can't see the stamp).
7. Set a flat small object onto the mount and ideally apply finger pressure.
8. Preview and set cropping margins.
9. Scan.
If you have trouble understanding my instructions, just shout.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
I have recently re-acquired a Morley-Bright roll-tector which is a great non-fluid watermark detection device. It also presents a depiction of watermark which can be scanned.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Rjan,
Congratulations on actually finding one of these. I have two, and a Morley Bright Instatector. At the moment it is impossible to find replacement ink sachets. I've posted about these devices before and my main criticism was the poor quality of the replacement ink sachets; when you could find them.
I have had a mixture of results using these. Generally, I found them to be useless for certain QEII Annigoni issues, where the paper thickness varies. Coloured papers were a nightmare, again because of paper thickness.
They did work well on many other stamps though.
As you point out, if you can get the watermark to show, these do enable you to take photographs.
I guess there is no perfect detection mechanism or technique (yet). Even the very expensive electric devices have limitations.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Ningpo, re your Morley, see the cws site mentioned in Kelly's post. They have ink sachets at $10.95 Canadian.
http://www.collectorssupplyhouse.com/s_acces/g_wmfluid.htm
But their mounts are more expensive than Subway.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Thanks Sheepshanks for the link. It is very strange that even the Morley Bright website had nothing in stock when I last looked a few weeks ago. It has been like that for ages. Nothing on eBay either.
So why are they available abroad and not here in the UK where they are based?
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Hi Ningpo, cannot give you a definite answer on that one but according to the website
"Not currently available
Unfortunately the manufacturer of the white base plate has gone out of business
and it is not known at this time if the product will continue.
"
Actually they seem to have ink for sale on their website
http://www.michaelkay.co.uk/watermark-detectors/morley-bright-inst-a-tector-watermark-detector.htm#
Maybe try ordering some and see if you get a "sorry out of stock reply"
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Thanks old chap. Tried to add one to the cart but still out of stock. Marvellous.
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Got a chance to test out Clive's process. Here's a stamp I had about 10 copies of - the unwatermarked #771 is CV $0.25 while the watermarked #772A is $11.00 (used). None of them had a watermark (or so I thought) so one was mounted in my album and all the extras were in my "sell for 5c" envelope.
I used Clive's technique but couldn't see a clear watermark on any. I then dug out a bunch of homemade mounts that were used for each of the 100 or so U.S. blocks I recently sold (and hadn't gotten around to throwing out. The backing is some kind of coated paper, so semi-permeable. My guess was that it might "bond" with the paper of the stamp rather than being a "sold barrier" behind it, and I wondered if that might somehow make any watermarks more evident. I trimmed it to a more manageable size and tested two particular stamps.
I didn't fuss with this at all, just put the stamps in and squirted some lighter fluid. Sure enough, the stamp "adhered" nicely to the dark backing paper, so in to the scanner they went, as is. (Although not necessary as I could see this watermark without needing the scanner). Here's the result.
Pretty nice exposure of the valuable watermark I'd say. The backing paper holds the moisture nicely so less fluid is needed for subsequent tests (after a few I just put the stamps in and pressed on them to squeeze some existing fluid out of the saturated backing paper).
Because papers and watermark impressions will vary I also did a post-production manual adjustment of various components (using the color management sliders) such as tint, saturation, sepia hues, sharpness, etc. Some helped on this one more than others. For comparison, here's the same scan but with higher contrast. Even better!
I like these homemade mounts better than using a nice vario sheet or similar smaller presentation mounts.
Thanks for the idea Clive!
Dave.
, even after try
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
05 Nov 2016
12:44:00am
re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Dave -
My apologies for a simply question. The stamps on the left show the watermark and the stamps on the right show the stamp front side up?
Kelly
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re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Both stamps show the gum side of the stamp. But this method really lets the face side "show through" as well. I think it actually helps discern the watermark as it is a better "contrast" with what is printed on the stamp.
Dave.
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A Service Dog gives a person with a disability independence. Never approach, distract or pet a working dog, especially when (s)he is in harness. Never be afraid to ask questions to the handler (parent).
05 Nov 2016
02:22:12pm
re: Watermarks: Some Thoughts Looking For Comments
Ok now I see what you mean. Thanks. 😃
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