Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
And from some eavesdropping it sounded like some people were as interested in "winning a lot" as in "winning a lot they actually wanted".
Also, I noticed that sometimes people got into bidding wars early and probably spent their budget for the day, because on later lots they backed off a lot sooner than it seemed they wanted to.
So, I think human psychology comes into play at the live events and it may be possible to use that as an advantage. Based on that small sample-size experience I have vowed never to put in a mail bid.
And looking forward to my third live event next weekend!
Dave.
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I have bought an occasional lot through mail/online auction bid and have won with less than my maximum at times.
You are really questioning the auctioneers integrity to think they would be dishonest. I feel that they are fairly well regulated and would soon be out of business if any shady deals are occurring. Not to say it never happens.
I often go to live auctions where there are absentee bids. These are held by a member of the auctioneers staff who bids live against the others and often will not even start the bidding.
My problem with mail order bidding is usually in the description and images, where unlike Catawiki (every page usually imaged) many rely on a short verbal and a lousy single or non-existent picture.
The other problem comes with the likes of Vance auctions who if the bidding fails to reach their required level they withdraw the lot. Sandafayre will not accept a bid of less than 80% of estimate, which I personally feel is not auction spirit, though is to the seller and auction house benefit.
Trust the auction house and see how it goes on a small / lesser value item, most put up the sale prices afterwards. (as FVH in Vancouver do)
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I have just won an auction lot from the last UPA 'mail bid' auction. This is the first time I've bothered with postal auctions since the early 90's. However, I sneaked in through the backdoor to win the lot.
I got an email after the auction end, offering unsold lots. These are reduced by 20% of the estimate in stages. So if an item remains unsold after the first reduction, another 20% is deducted and so on.
I had kept the huge printed auction catalogue and on receiving the email, I found the item I had been interested in originally. To cut to the chase, I submitted my bid and won it.
Without this 'unsold lot' offer, I would not have bothered. As Sheepshanks has pointed out, most descriptions are not fit for purpose, particularly where no (tiny) image is provided. Some descriptions are embellished with irrelevant nonsense. Where images are provided, sometimes the lot is either mis-identified or fiscally used. Or, the image is just rubbish.
I actually have more faith in eBay auctions, where I have had dealings with the seller before.
I will add, that another carrot was dangled in front of me in respect of the lot that I won: I was offered £55 off the invoice as a 'first time buyer'. So, with 20% off original estimate, no buyer's commission and no postage/handling charges and £55 deduction, I was 'rather happy with my lot'. 
But that was my one, only and last bid on UPA postal auctions.
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"... it is really a time limited offer system ..."
Agreed.
All of the advantages accrue to the house.
Instead of the dealer selling to the first person who meets their price, they get to sell to the person who wants it the most.
I do not think that the system (or dealers involved) are inherently venal ... they have just found a way of making sure that they can publish a price list *and* give collectors a chance to fight to pay more (eg, tell the dealer that they have set the price too low).
I do not participate in these mail auction events, because the message is "I will sell it to you at this price, unless someone else offers me more", which has an unpleasant now-you-can-buy-it-now-you-can't feel to it.
Either it is a professional price list, or it ain't.
Either it is a disinterested 3rd-party auction, or it ain't.
Mixing the two does not appeal to me.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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"...they used the high mail bid as a starting point."
That is just dishonest. Every mail bid sale I've seen works the same as your typical online bidding site, in that your mail bid is a maximum amount you wish to bid, and the auctioneer proxy bids against the live bidders up to that amount.
Ted
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"Limited experience, but I recently went to a couple live auctions and they used the high mail bid as a starting point."
"That is just dishonest."
No, it is not.
First, the mail bids are resolved, eg, the mail bidders are bid against each other.
The lot opens at the then-winning ("highest") mail bid, which is one increment above the second-highest mail bid.
Lots sell for a higher price, more often than not, because:
1) the mail bidders could not inspect the lot, but
2) the floor bidders could inspect the lot, and bid a higher price, with confidence.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Okay. On further thought, I get it. It's not necessarily the highest mail bid received, but, rather, the winning one, which would be one bid increment above the second highest mail bid.
Ted
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I've done a number of them over the past several months. I'm certainly of the opinion that the ones I've dealt with are completely above board. Ultimately it comes down to how much you are willing to pay. I won't bid in auctions where the opening bid is set too high for me. After my first few experiments (some a bit costlier than I would have wished) I set my maximum to no higher than 'really good bargain' rate (whatever that might be) - no tie breaker if that is an option. If it walks away from me to a higher bidder, then I have to have the serenity of mind to accept that.
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If I feel that the dealer is dishonest I just pass on bidding in his sales. There are several dealers that have mail sales on Stamp Auction Network and I feel confident that they are honest. I bid the max I am willing to pay/what it is worth to me. If the mail sales accept bids from an auction agent I go that route.
On ebay I use a snipping tool.
I haven't been to a live auction in a while but I still bid in auctions and I use an auction agent, they can inspect the lots I am interested in and let me know about condition. It is well worth the fee they charge.
I try to keep from getting too emotionally involved with bidding, too easy to over bid and have buyer's remorse.
Vince
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I used to bid in the mail bid auctions a lot back in the 1970s since that was the only game. In my teens I'd bid low for US classics like Scott 1 and a few others. At one point I had a stock book page full of them, bought right. I fancied myself a bit of a dealer in those days so I'd take the book to the New York City shows and see what I could sell to dealers at a profit. I would usually be able to sell something, enough to have my buying money for that show.
Today I rely on eBay. Just a ton of stuff available. If you don't see it, wait a few days and it will show up.
I live within a half hour of Dutch Country Auctions in Delaware. I've received their email catalogs, but as someone said, the lot descriptions are poor and photos non-existent for large lots of covers that I see. Those lots always go for more than I think they should. I may have to go there for the live auction one of these days just to ovserve.
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Limited experience, but I recently went to a couple live auctions and they used the high mail bid as a starting point. Not a single one held up as the winning bid. I think for people who are there it's too tempting to just add another dollar (or whatever...) and you win it.
And from some eavesdropping it sounded like some people were as interested in "winning a lot" as in "winning a lot they actually wanted".
Also, I noticed that sometimes people got into bidding wars early and probably spent their budget for the day, because on later lots they backed off a lot sooner than it seemed they wanted to.
So, I think human psychology comes into play at the live events and it may be possible to use that as an advantage. Based on that small sample-size experience I have vowed never to put in a mail bid.
And looking forward to my third live event next weekend!
Dave.
Login to Like
this post
re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
I have bought an occasional lot through mail/online auction bid and have won with less than my maximum at times.
You are really questioning the auctioneers integrity to think they would be dishonest. I feel that they are fairly well regulated and would soon be out of business if any shady deals are occurring. Not to say it never happens.
I often go to live auctions where there are absentee bids. These are held by a member of the auctioneers staff who bids live against the others and often will not even start the bidding.
My problem with mail order bidding is usually in the description and images, where unlike Catawiki (every page usually imaged) many rely on a short verbal and a lousy single or non-existent picture.
The other problem comes with the likes of Vance auctions who if the bidding fails to reach their required level they withdraw the lot. Sandafayre will not accept a bid of less than 80% of estimate, which I personally feel is not auction spirit, though is to the seller and auction house benefit.
Trust the auction house and see how it goes on a small / lesser value item, most put up the sale prices afterwards. (as FVH in Vancouver do)
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re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
I have just won an auction lot from the last UPA 'mail bid' auction. This is the first time I've bothered with postal auctions since the early 90's. However, I sneaked in through the backdoor to win the lot.
I got an email after the auction end, offering unsold lots. These are reduced by 20% of the estimate in stages. So if an item remains unsold after the first reduction, another 20% is deducted and so on.
I had kept the huge printed auction catalogue and on receiving the email, I found the item I had been interested in originally. To cut to the chase, I submitted my bid and won it.
Without this 'unsold lot' offer, I would not have bothered. As Sheepshanks has pointed out, most descriptions are not fit for purpose, particularly where no (tiny) image is provided. Some descriptions are embellished with irrelevant nonsense. Where images are provided, sometimes the lot is either mis-identified or fiscally used. Or, the image is just rubbish.
I actually have more faith in eBay auctions, where I have had dealings with the seller before.
I will add, that another carrot was dangled in front of me in respect of the lot that I won: I was offered £55 off the invoice as a 'first time buyer'. So, with 20% off original estimate, no buyer's commission and no postage/handling charges and £55 deduction, I was 'rather happy with my lot'.
But that was my one, only and last bid on UPA postal auctions.
Login to Like
this post
re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
"... it is really a time limited offer system ..."
Agreed.
All of the advantages accrue to the house.
Instead of the dealer selling to the first person who meets their price, they get to sell to the person who wants it the most.
I do not think that the system (or dealers involved) are inherently venal ... they have just found a way of making sure that they can publish a price list *and* give collectors a chance to fight to pay more (eg, tell the dealer that they have set the price too low).
I do not participate in these mail auction events, because the message is "I will sell it to you at this price, unless someone else offers me more", which has an unpleasant now-you-can-buy-it-now-you-can't feel to it.
Either it is a professional price list, or it ain't.
Either it is a disinterested 3rd-party auction, or it ain't.
Mixing the two does not appeal to me.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
"...they used the high mail bid as a starting point."
That is just dishonest. Every mail bid sale I've seen works the same as your typical online bidding site, in that your mail bid is a maximum amount you wish to bid, and the auctioneer proxy bids against the live bidders up to that amount.
Ted
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like this post.
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re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
"Limited experience, but I recently went to a couple live auctions and they used the high mail bid as a starting point."
"That is just dishonest."
No, it is not.
First, the mail bids are resolved, eg, the mail bidders are bid against each other.
The lot opens at the then-winning ("highest") mail bid, which is one increment above the second-highest mail bid.
Lots sell for a higher price, more often than not, because:
1) the mail bidders could not inspect the lot, but
2) the floor bidders could inspect the lot, and bid a higher price, with confidence.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
Okay. On further thought, I get it. It's not necessarily the highest mail bid received, but, rather, the winning one, which would be one bid increment above the second highest mail bid.
Ted
Login to Like
this post
re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
I've done a number of them over the past several months. I'm certainly of the opinion that the ones I've dealt with are completely above board. Ultimately it comes down to how much you are willing to pay. I won't bid in auctions where the opening bid is set too high for me. After my first few experiments (some a bit costlier than I would have wished) I set my maximum to no higher than 'really good bargain' rate (whatever that might be) - no tie breaker if that is an option. If it walks away from me to a higher bidder, then I have to have the serenity of mind to accept that.
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like this post.
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re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
If I feel that the dealer is dishonest I just pass on bidding in his sales. There are several dealers that have mail sales on Stamp Auction Network and I feel confident that they are honest. I bid the max I am willing to pay/what it is worth to me. If the mail sales accept bids from an auction agent I go that route.
On ebay I use a snipping tool.
I haven't been to a live auction in a while but I still bid in auctions and I use an auction agent, they can inspect the lots I am interested in and let me know about condition. It is well worth the fee they charge.
I try to keep from getting too emotionally involved with bidding, too easy to over bid and have buyer's remorse.
Vince
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re: Mail Bid Auctions - Pros and Cons
I used to bid in the mail bid auctions a lot back in the 1970s since that was the only game. In my teens I'd bid low for US classics like Scott 1 and a few others. At one point I had a stock book page full of them, bought right. I fancied myself a bit of a dealer in those days so I'd take the book to the New York City shows and see what I could sell to dealers at a profit. I would usually be able to sell something, enough to have my buying money for that show.
Today I rely on eBay. Just a ton of stuff available. If you don't see it, wait a few days and it will show up.
I live within a half hour of Dutch Country Auctions in Delaware. I've received their email catalogs, but as someone said, the lot descriptions are poor and photos non-existent for large lots of covers that I see. Those lots always go for more than I think they should. I may have to go there for the live auction one of these days just to ovserve.
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