Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I see a ton of these cheap stamps worth face value or less, all with certificates and people trying to sell them for big dollars...
"It is genuine, unused, OG, never hinged."
Darn I could make that assessment!
So what's up with this stupidity?
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How much were they asking??
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They are doing this, because people are willing to buy them.
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It is all part of the graded certificate mania affecting the hobby. The better the grade, the higher the CV, so the theory goes. While some command a premium, these were obtained for prices comparable to their ungraded counterparts.
Note how eight of the 2c imperf Washingtons were destroyed to attain the 100 Jumbo grade.
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In the end, when the fad dies off, the clear winner will be PSE.
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"In the end, when the fad dies off, the clear winner will be PSE."
... and a few very smart, albiet somewhat shady, dealers.
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It was three or so stamp dealers that created PSE.
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As I see it, the graded stamp activity is just trying to make stamps more like an investment commodity to attract non-philatelic people as buyers similar to the graded coin market. As we learned in economics class, for any given price there is always some buyers. More most traditional collectors would not be interested but that is not the intended audience.
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I have a hard time believing that some one will have a minimum value stamp appraised.
Then again, someone once said that there's a sucker born every minute.
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This site makes for an interesting read.
http://www.virtualstampclub.com/grading_kl.html
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"... trying to make stamps more like an investment commodity ..."
There is a joke even older than Al about the sardines that are for selling, not for eating.
Graded stamps are for investing, not for collecting.
As long as the investors only buy & sell amongst themselves, the rest of us are safe.
Yes, the jumbos are a crime against nature.
Yes, they take blocks out of collectors' collective hands.
But they won't kill the hobby, because they have nothing to do with the hobby.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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When I started this thread I was just wondering about the cheap,common stamps with PSE certificates. Nothing like a penny stamp with an asking price of $20-50.
The responses, especially the link from sheepshanks got me thinking about a pair of 314 that I own...
Here's the PSE certificate proclaiming this pair as fake. Sharp and experienced eyes will note that they are wrong... this is a documented but Scott uncataloged private perforation that Shermack created for Covel Manufacturing Company. The "experts" should have known that.
So I send PSE an email asking how I would go about asking a question about one of their certificates and findings.... sent this several months ago. NO RESPONSE!
You'd think if they indeed issued the certificate that they'd stand behind it. Or at least answer a fricken inquiry!
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Send the pair to APEX for a second opinion.
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PSE does not like to change anything they have certified. I have one that they made a typo on the cert, but I'm getting nowhere trying to get it fixed. The above cert is interesting as I have not seen them actually say "Fake coil". Usually it will say something like a pair of 300's, trimmed with fake perforations added.
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I think what PSE is saying is that your stamps are 314, but they are NOT 318.
Did you submit them as a private perf of 314?
Lars
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Lars, I didn't submit them. I bought them with the certificate. The seller believed them and was selling it as a fake.
If indeed PSE is this grand expertizing organization, I would expect them to give a correct identification of stamps submitted. The correct answer of "not a 318, but a private perforation, not listed by Scott, created by Shermack for Covel Mfg Co".
I was at a show last weekend and conversing with a dealer. He was aware of this information. I'd expect "experts" selling this service to know that.
"PSE does not like to change anything they have certified."
That says it all. An organization that is paid to add value to stamps, but won't be corrected when wrong or even answer questions regarding certifications they have issued.
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"You are asking PSE for a service it does not provide."
I was asking for a reply to an email! Not too much to ask! If indeed your reply is the situation, then they should have replied with a boilerplate email explaining that. Still, I would have a problem paying them again to reconsider their error.
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In the monthly Linn's issue, John Hotchner has a regular article regarding expertizing. It has been very enlightening. One of the downfalls of many who submit stamps for expertization, according to Hotchner, is the failure to properly describe what is being submitted and what it is suspected to be.
Think of yourself as the district attorney presenting a case to the jury. You have to state your case for what you believe the item to be. Give the people who will be looking at the stamp all the information in support of what you believe the stamp to be. You want the jury to deliberate on your stamp, but they need what evidence you have to guide them during their deliberation.
I'll bet you that the person who submitted the pair to PSE merely asked, "Is this a genuine coil?" The expertizers looked at it based on that sole question, and determined that the coil is "fake" in the sense that it was not "genuine" meaning as issued by the Post Office Department. With this in mind, and lacking any other information as to the original submission to PSE, I have to agree that PSE did provide a proper verdict.
To use another analogy, since expertizers refer to submitted items as "patients", you go to the doctor and say, "Doctor, it hurts." The doctor asks, "Where does it hurt?" You don't answer by saying, "You're the doctor, you figure it out! That's what I'm paying you for." No. You give the doctor as much information as possible to help the doctor reach as correct a diagnosis as possible.
To give expertizers a stamp, not provide them with any information, and hope that they will find something in your favor, well that would take an enormous amount of time for research and examination. They would have to exhaust every possibility of what that the stamp could be. It would cost much, much more for expertization if it were done that way. Again, it comes down to one thing: proper communication.
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"You are asking PSE for a service it does not provide.
"
"I was asking for a reply to an email! Not too much to ask! If indeed your reply is the situation, then they should have replied with a boilerplate email explaining that.
"
Ah, this explains why, when I once sent the PF an email explaining why one of their certificates was wrong, I received no reply and the incorrect certificate is still in their online database.
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"Ah, this explains why, when I once sent the PF an email explaining why one of their certificates was wrong, I received no reply and the incorrect certificate is still in their online database."
They need to be called out on this! If they are selling expertizing services and issuing certificates, they need to stand behind those opinions. So what we are discovering is that their certificates, that people have spent big money to buy stamps based on that opinion, aren't worth the paper they are printed on! That's called fraud.
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I can see both sides. I think they use the phrase "rendering an opinion" for a reason. I think there are stamps and stamp characteristics that could be argued endlessly. A year later, different people on the committee, different opinion.
It's sort of the can of worms syndrome. Once you admit one is wrong they're all suspect.
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"... That's called fraud ..."
Absent a promise to answer all eMail, or to re-examine challenged certificates, etc, I do not see 'fraud', which is a specific thing.
"... I can see both sides ... Once you admit one is wrong they're all suspect ..."
Then you should see both sides here, too
Science gets a lot of credibility from being open to correction.
If we knew that the bad certs were easily challenged & promptly withdrawn, we could more easily trust the lot.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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@ ikeypikey,
That's a good point. I just don't think they see it that way.
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Think about this a bit. Recently we watched a collection of really cool early USA stamps and blocks. One of the advertised points was "Numerous Certificates". So indeed the promise of certificates and what they are supposed to represent was part of the financial value of this collection.
To think that the company that issued these opinions of value would not be liable for their work, never mind that they do not answer inquiries totally invalidates their work!
For instance, you hire a home inspection service to inspect a home you are considering buying. You base the decision to buy that home on their recommendations. Many years ago, I collected insurance money from one for not uncovering a major defect in the roof of our home. Yes, they accepted money for an opinion and were held liable.
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Hear ya loud and clear Tom. I totally get that. I'm surmising as to why they're not excited or motivated to reverse course on opinions. I think the same applies as to why they sometimes return an item with a "no opinion".
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I think the title of this ebay offering pretty much says all that needs to be said regarding the resale value of graded, low value stamps -- "ESTATE CLOSEOUT SCOTT #821 MINT OG NH PSE GRADED FOR LESS THAN COST OF THE CERT."
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The stamps graded less than 90 do not sell for much of any premium.
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What knocked it down to 85? Looks pretty good for centering, perfs, etc.
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Here is my problem. This is the cert. According to this it is a 1057a (dry printing).
Now here is the holder that came with it. It claims it is a 1057 (wet printing), which it is.
So I have a cert that says the wrong thing, even though it was correctly identified. If they would be more specific on the cert itself and say wet printing, it would not have been an issue.
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I see a ton of these cheap stamps worth face value or less, all with certificates and people trying to sell them for big dollars...
"It is genuine, unused, OG, never hinged."
Darn I could make that assessment!
So what's up with this stupidity?
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
How much were they asking??
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
They are doing this, because people are willing to buy them.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
It is all part of the graded certificate mania affecting the hobby. The better the grade, the higher the CV, so the theory goes. While some command a premium, these were obtained for prices comparable to their ungraded counterparts.
Note how eight of the 2c imperf Washingtons were destroyed to attain the 100 Jumbo grade.
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re: What's up with this malarky?
In the end, when the fad dies off, the clear winner will be PSE.
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: What's up with this malarky?
"In the end, when the fad dies off, the clear winner will be PSE."
... and a few very smart, albiet somewhat shady, dealers.
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Login to Like.
re: What's up with this malarky?
It was three or so stamp dealers that created PSE.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
As I see it, the graded stamp activity is just trying to make stamps more like an investment commodity to attract non-philatelic people as buyers similar to the graded coin market. As we learned in economics class, for any given price there is always some buyers. More most traditional collectors would not be interested but that is not the intended audience.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
I have a hard time believing that some one will have a minimum value stamp appraised.
Then again, someone once said that there's a sucker born every minute.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
This site makes for an interesting read.
http://www.virtualstampclub.com/grading_kl.html
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
"... trying to make stamps more like an investment commodity ..."
There is a joke even older than Al about the sardines that are for selling, not for eating.
Graded stamps are for investing, not for collecting.
As long as the investors only buy & sell amongst themselves, the rest of us are safe.
Yes, the jumbos are a crime against nature.
Yes, they take blocks out of collectors' collective hands.
But they won't kill the hobby, because they have nothing to do with the hobby.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
Approvals
re: What's up with this malarky?
When I started this thread I was just wondering about the cheap,common stamps with PSE certificates. Nothing like a penny stamp with an asking price of $20-50.
The responses, especially the link from sheepshanks got me thinking about a pair of 314 that I own...
Here's the PSE certificate proclaiming this pair as fake. Sharp and experienced eyes will note that they are wrong... this is a documented but Scott uncataloged private perforation that Shermack created for Covel Manufacturing Company. The "experts" should have known that.
So I send PSE an email asking how I would go about asking a question about one of their certificates and findings.... sent this several months ago. NO RESPONSE!
You'd think if they indeed issued the certificate that they'd stand behind it. Or at least answer a fricken inquiry!
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this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
Send the pair to APEX for a second opinion.
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re: What's up with this malarky?
PSE does not like to change anything they have certified. I have one that they made a typo on the cert, but I'm getting nowhere trying to get it fixed. The above cert is interesting as I have not seen them actually say "Fake coil". Usually it will say something like a pair of 300's, trimmed with fake perforations added.
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this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
I think what PSE is saying is that your stamps are 314, but they are NOT 318.
Did you submit them as a private perf of 314?
Lars
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this post
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re: What's up with this malarky?
Lars, I didn't submit them. I bought them with the certificate. The seller believed them and was selling it as a fake.
If indeed PSE is this grand expertizing organization, I would expect them to give a correct identification of stamps submitted. The correct answer of "not a 318, but a private perforation, not listed by Scott, created by Shermack for Covel Mfg Co".
I was at a show last weekend and conversing with a dealer. He was aware of this information. I'd expect "experts" selling this service to know that.
"PSE does not like to change anything they have certified."
That says it all. An organization that is paid to add value to stamps, but won't be corrected when wrong or even answer questions regarding certifications they have issued.
Login to Like
this post
Approvals
re: What's up with this malarky?
"You are asking PSE for a service it does not provide."
I was asking for a reply to an email! Not too much to ask! If indeed your reply is the situation, then they should have replied with a boilerplate email explaining that. Still, I would have a problem paying them again to reconsider their error.
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likes this post.
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re: What's up with this malarky?
In the monthly Linn's issue, John Hotchner has a regular article regarding expertizing. It has been very enlightening. One of the downfalls of many who submit stamps for expertization, according to Hotchner, is the failure to properly describe what is being submitted and what it is suspected to be.
Think of yourself as the district attorney presenting a case to the jury. You have to state your case for what you believe the item to be. Give the people who will be looking at the stamp all the information in support of what you believe the stamp to be. You want the jury to deliberate on your stamp, but they need what evidence you have to guide them during their deliberation.
I'll bet you that the person who submitted the pair to PSE merely asked, "Is this a genuine coil?" The expertizers looked at it based on that sole question, and determined that the coil is "fake" in the sense that it was not "genuine" meaning as issued by the Post Office Department. With this in mind, and lacking any other information as to the original submission to PSE, I have to agree that PSE did provide a proper verdict.
To use another analogy, since expertizers refer to submitted items as "patients", you go to the doctor and say, "Doctor, it hurts." The doctor asks, "Where does it hurt?" You don't answer by saying, "You're the doctor, you figure it out! That's what I'm paying you for." No. You give the doctor as much information as possible to help the doctor reach as correct a diagnosis as possible.
To give expertizers a stamp, not provide them with any information, and hope that they will find something in your favor, well that would take an enormous amount of time for research and examination. They would have to exhaust every possibility of what that the stamp could be. It would cost much, much more for expertization if it were done that way. Again, it comes down to one thing: proper communication.
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11:28:33am
re: What's up with this malarky?
"You are asking PSE for a service it does not provide.
"
"I was asking for a reply to an email! Not too much to ask! If indeed your reply is the situation, then they should have replied with a boilerplate email explaining that.
"
Ah, this explains why, when I once sent the PF an email explaining why one of their certificates was wrong, I received no reply and the incorrect certificate is still in their online database.
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this post
Approvals
re: What's up with this malarky?
"Ah, this explains why, when I once sent the PF an email explaining why one of their certificates was wrong, I received no reply and the incorrect certificate is still in their online database."
They need to be called out on this! If they are selling expertizing services and issuing certificates, they need to stand behind those opinions. So what we are discovering is that their certificates, that people have spent big money to buy stamps based on that opinion, aren't worth the paper they are printed on! That's called fraud.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
I can see both sides. I think they use the phrase "rendering an opinion" for a reason. I think there are stamps and stamp characteristics that could be argued endlessly. A year later, different people on the committee, different opinion.
It's sort of the can of worms syndrome. Once you admit one is wrong they're all suspect.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
"... That's called fraud ..."
Absent a promise to answer all eMail, or to re-examine challenged certificates, etc, I do not see 'fraud', which is a specific thing.
"... I can see both sides ... Once you admit one is wrong they're all suspect ..."
Then you should see both sides here, too
Science gets a lot of credibility from being open to correction.
If we knew that the bad certs were easily challenged & promptly withdrawn, we could more easily trust the lot.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
@ ikeypikey,
That's a good point. I just don't think they see it that way.
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this post
Approvals
re: What's up with this malarky?
Think about this a bit. Recently we watched a collection of really cool early USA stamps and blocks. One of the advertised points was "Numerous Certificates". So indeed the promise of certificates and what they are supposed to represent was part of the financial value of this collection.
To think that the company that issued these opinions of value would not be liable for their work, never mind that they do not answer inquiries totally invalidates their work!
For instance, you hire a home inspection service to inspect a home you are considering buying. You base the decision to buy that home on their recommendations. Many years ago, I collected insurance money from one for not uncovering a major defect in the roof of our home. Yes, they accepted money for an opinion and were held liable.
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
Hear ya loud and clear Tom. I totally get that. I'm surmising as to why they're not excited or motivated to reverse course on opinions. I think the same applies as to why they sometimes return an item with a "no opinion".
Login to Like
this post
re: What's up with this malarky?
I think the title of this ebay offering pretty much says all that needs to be said regarding the resale value of graded, low value stamps -- "ESTATE CLOSEOUT SCOTT #821 MINT OG NH PSE GRADED FOR LESS THAN COST OF THE CERT."
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re: What's up with this malarky?
The stamps graded less than 90 do not sell for much of any premium.
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06:27:28pm
re: What's up with this malarky?
What knocked it down to 85? Looks pretty good for centering, perfs, etc.
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re: What's up with this malarky?
Here is my problem. This is the cert. According to this it is a 1057a (dry printing).
Now here is the holder that came with it. It claims it is a 1057 (wet printing), which it is.
So I have a cert that says the wrong thing, even though it was correctly identified. If they would be more specific on the cert itself and say wet printing, it would not have been an issue.
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