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General Philatelic/Identify This? : Russia 75K

 

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whitebuffalo
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05 Dec 2016
06:39:28pm
I thought I had this one tracked down to 1919 Russian civil war (west army) but now I'm not so sure.

Can anyone apply a Scott#, date and a cv for me. It is MNH and the color, in hand, is a greenish black. (or maybe dark olive?)

As always, any help is greatly appreciated,

WB

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khj
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05 Dec 2016
06:48:59pm
re: Russia 75K

Not Scott listed, but it is mentioned in Scott under Latvia -- see Stamps Issued Under Russian Occupation.

1919 Western Army issue, set of 8, exists both perforate and imperforate. Reprints and counterfeits exist. I believe they are assigned catalog numbers in Michel. If you need that, I or someone else can check.

Your stamp appears to be genuine, and it does not appear to be a reprint to me. But I am open to correction.

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whitebuffalo
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05 Dec 2016
07:40:07pm
re: Russia 75K

Thanks khj, that ties in with what I thought I knew, but when I looked, the only listings I could find for the western army, were overprinted Latvia stamps.

WB

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khj
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05 Dec 2016
08:28:15pm
re: Russia 75K

Yeah, Scott is sneaky. It's shown/mentioned in a note hidden at the end of the Latvia listings.

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whitebuffalo
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05 Dec 2016
08:42:17pm
re: Russia 75K

Thank you for the help!


WB

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Guthrum
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06 Dec 2016
07:27:52am
re: Russia 75K

Gibbons states as follows:

"Stamps in the above type (illustrated as yours), 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50, 60 and 75k, were prepared for use by the force raised by Col. Avalov-Bermondt in Latvia, but were never issued. Forgeries also exist."

As ever, Gibbons has not checked its annotations, presumably made shortly after the event. 'Col. Avalov-Bermondt' was in fact Major-General Pavel Bermondt-Avalov.

Bermondt-Avalov, musician, adventurer, descended from Georgian princes, anti-communist, Nazi prisoner, Yugoslav exile and finally ancient New Yorker (d.1974 at the age of 97) was indeed a colourful character! Short of funding from his German backers, he printed his own money (and presumably those stamps, too). As you would. Those 8 stamps are an excellent window into a turbulent and confused period. With the recent Lithuanian issue of a civil-defence document in the event of Russian incursion, we should not think it could not happen again.

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whitebuffalo
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06 Dec 2016
09:28:46am
re: Russia 75K

Thanks for the history, Ian! That just made an interesting stamp, just that much more so.

I hate having to wonder if it's a forgery, but from what I can tell, it's value wouldn't really warrant having it checked out. Then there's that aspect of having the higher denomination, it always makes me want to seek out the rest of the set. Then you have to worry about those being forgeries and so on and so forth. I'll probably just mount it in the Latvia section, with a footnote to it's history and go on to the next stamp.

Thanks again guys, for the help!!


WB

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nigelc
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06 Dec 2016
10:55:19am
re: Russia 75K

Hi WB,

It doesn't look like a forgery to me.Happy

It has the usual positive signs of an original stamp or reprint:

1. The shape of the little flag above R of Russkaya.

2. The shape of the top of the value tablet around 75.

3. The tail of the eagle touching the line below it.

4. 9 unclear dots/blobs/pearls on each side of the eagle.

It's also much too clear to be a late reprint.

However, I don't know the original stamps well enough to distinguish them from the earlier reprints so I can't judge on that point.

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nigelc
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06 Dec 2016
11:10:08am
re: Russia 75K

I very much agree with Guthrum about Pavel Belmondt-Avalov.

There's a fascinating Wikipedia article about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Bermondt-Avalov

with this picture:

Image Not Found

I remember years ago reading the "The White Generals" and was struck over and over again how the white armies failed to cooperate in the Civil War.

Kolchak, Denikin and so many others failed to support each other.

However, I think Pavel B-A took the biscuit by deciding to attack Latvian forces rather than the Red Army!

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whitebuffalo
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06 Dec 2016
11:36:28am
re: Russia 75K

Nigel, your first post is very reassuring, thank you. Your second post has me thinking about creating an exhibition page with a full write up on these stamps and trying to find the rest of the set.D'Oh

Thank you for that too?


WBBig Grin

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Author/Postings
Members Picture
whitebuffalo

05 Dec 2016
06:39:28pm

I thought I had this one tracked down to 1919 Russian civil war (west army) but now I'm not so sure.

Can anyone apply a Scott#, date and a cv for me. It is MNH and the color, in hand, is a greenish black. (or maybe dark olive?)

As always, any help is greatly appreciated,

WB

Image Not Found


Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
khj

05 Dec 2016
06:48:59pm

re: Russia 75K

Not Scott listed, but it is mentioned in Scott under Latvia -- see Stamps Issued Under Russian Occupation.

1919 Western Army issue, set of 8, exists both perforate and imperforate. Reprints and counterfeits exist. I believe they are assigned catalog numbers in Michel. If you need that, I or someone else can check.

Your stamp appears to be genuine, and it does not appear to be a reprint to me. But I am open to correction.

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like this post.
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whitebuffalo

05 Dec 2016
07:40:07pm

re: Russia 75K

Thanks khj, that ties in with what I thought I knew, but when I looked, the only listings I could find for the western army, were overprinted Latvia stamps.

WB

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this post
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khj

05 Dec 2016
08:28:15pm

re: Russia 75K

Yeah, Scott is sneaky. It's shown/mentioned in a note hidden at the end of the Latvia listings.

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this post
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whitebuffalo

05 Dec 2016
08:42:17pm

re: Russia 75K

Thank you for the help!


WB

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Guthrum

06 Dec 2016
07:27:52am

re: Russia 75K

Gibbons states as follows:

"Stamps in the above type (illustrated as yours), 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50, 60 and 75k, were prepared for use by the force raised by Col. Avalov-Bermondt in Latvia, but were never issued. Forgeries also exist."

As ever, Gibbons has not checked its annotations, presumably made shortly after the event. 'Col. Avalov-Bermondt' was in fact Major-General Pavel Bermondt-Avalov.

Bermondt-Avalov, musician, adventurer, descended from Georgian princes, anti-communist, Nazi prisoner, Yugoslav exile and finally ancient New Yorker (d.1974 at the age of 97) was indeed a colourful character! Short of funding from his German backers, he printed his own money (and presumably those stamps, too). As you would. Those 8 stamps are an excellent window into a turbulent and confused period. With the recent Lithuanian issue of a civil-defence document in the event of Russian incursion, we should not think it could not happen again.

Like 
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likes this post.
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whitebuffalo

06 Dec 2016
09:28:46am

re: Russia 75K

Thanks for the history, Ian! That just made an interesting stamp, just that much more so.

I hate having to wonder if it's a forgery, but from what I can tell, it's value wouldn't really warrant having it checked out. Then there's that aspect of having the higher denomination, it always makes me want to seek out the rest of the set. Then you have to worry about those being forgeries and so on and so forth. I'll probably just mount it in the Latvia section, with a footnote to it's history and go on to the next stamp.

Thanks again guys, for the help!!


WB

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this post
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nigelc

06 Dec 2016
10:55:19am

re: Russia 75K

Hi WB,

It doesn't look like a forgery to me.Happy

It has the usual positive signs of an original stamp or reprint:

1. The shape of the little flag above R of Russkaya.

2. The shape of the top of the value tablet around 75.

3. The tail of the eagle touching the line below it.

4. 9 unclear dots/blobs/pearls on each side of the eagle.

It's also much too clear to be a late reprint.

However, I don't know the original stamps well enough to distinguish them from the earlier reprints so I can't judge on that point.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
nigelc

06 Dec 2016
11:10:08am

re: Russia 75K

I very much agree with Guthrum about Pavel Belmondt-Avalov.

There's a fascinating Wikipedia article about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Bermondt-Avalov

with this picture:

Image Not Found

I remember years ago reading the "The White Generals" and was struck over and over again how the white armies failed to cooperate in the Civil War.

Kolchak, Denikin and so many others failed to support each other.

However, I think Pavel B-A took the biscuit by deciding to attack Latvian forces rather than the Red Army!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
whitebuffalo

06 Dec 2016
11:36:28am

re: Russia 75K

Nigel, your first post is very reassuring, thank you. Your second post has me thinking about creating an exhibition page with a full write up on these stamps and trying to find the rest of the set.D'Oh

Thank you for that too?


WBBig Grin

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like this post.
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