Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Does anyone happen to know what the minimum postage rate was for a letter carried aboard the airship Hindenburg from Germany to the USA?
Can't seem to find it.
Thanks,
Bruce
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Ran across this quote - don't know how accurate it is, as this info seems quite hard to verify;
"This is a hard topic to research, but as best I found out the 65c was for a postcard and $1.30 on one segment of the total flight, and $2.60 carried a letter all the way. $3.90 (and aren’t we lucky they didn’t issue another stamp for that?) would cover the round trip mailing of a letter. These were the 1930 rates. I see some covers with all 3 1930 stamps, but believe that was for philatelic reasons. As for the 1933 stamp, it carried a letter across the Atlantic for just 50c. "
Randy
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Randy, looks like you're quoting rates FROM the US rather than FROM Germany
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Thanks, Randy but these are the U.S. rates but trying to find the German rates seem just as perplexing.
Bruce
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I think you should try to get hold of either the Sieger or the Michel Zeppelin catalogue. The latter has just been completely revised.
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1936-37, 0,50 RM per 5 Gr = foreign fee. (card 15 Pf, letter to 20 Gr 25 Pf, each additional 20 Gr +15 Pf).
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Opa,
Looking at those rates has left me confused. The website, ( http://www.airships.net/zeppelin-mail/hindenburg-covers/ ) shows images of flown covers with strangely high rates and inconsistent frankings (look at the registered versus non-registered covers). In addition, there is mention of a forged cover rated at 0,55 Pf. Here is the comment:
"Bock made the glaring error of franking the covers with the wrong amount of postage (.55 Rpf, a rate for printed matter that was not valid on this flight)."
This implies to me that the rates were higher than normal.
Based on those images and that comment, was there by any chance a 'surcharge' applied to the Hindenburg flights?
I have a last flight cover dropped in Germany with a 100 pf franking, which muddies the water even more, as whilst it seems to fit with your '20 GR 25 Pf, each additional 20 Gr +15 Pf', it would make my cover 120 Gr. This seems excessive for such a very flimsy envelope!
Or have I got this completely wrong.
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A-ha!
Thanks for the correction David and Bruce.
Randy
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Opa: Where did you get those rates? That might be additionally helpful.
Ningpo: It seems that franking, that may be over franking, was done in mind with the propaganda appeal of certain issues slapped on covers regardless of rate. Just an observation.
Musicman: 
Jansimon: I have the Michel and Zieger zep catalogues but could not find the rates table similar to the ones that the specialized Michel Germany have in those editions.
Bruce
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It looks like a favor cancelled cover to me.
Perhaps that's why the rate doesn't make sense.
Just a thought.
Lars
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The cover is 100% real. The letter was never intended to go to North America. Look at the address, Bremerhaven, a city in north Germany. At the top is stamped in a red square
" Wegen ausfall der Deutschlandfahrt Postabwurf bei Nordamericafahrt" this translates to,
(as best as I can), because of flight cancelation of the German Flight, Mail was dropped by North Americaflight. There are many of these covers, Letters and Postcards.
Also please look at the Big red round Cancel. "DEUTSCHLANDFAHRT" or GERMANFLIGHT.
See also here. http://www.luftfahrtarchiv-koeln.de/hindenburg.htm
As far as the Tariff, there are a lot of special rates for different type of Covers and Postcards as well as the flights in those years. This is a very specialized collectors area. As has been mentioned many covers were made for collectors.
I got the rates from a German zeppelin fan site I found. Someone showed a page from a catalog. I don´t collect these myself, can´t collect everything.
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Ningpo: I looked at your posting again and tend to agree with you that there may have been some sort of surcharge associated with airship air mail flights versus the regular air mail rate.
Now, if only I could find out what that basic rate plus possible airship surcharge would have been for a letter leaving from Germany to USA so that I can differentiate between a properly postage franking and on over franked cover.
Again, unless I am mistaken, I have not seen a rate table in the Michel Zeppelin Specialized 2003 catalogue or the Sieger Zeppelin book--seems incredible to me.
Bruce
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This might also help for the cover shown above. From 1934 to 1939 the tariff for letters that went by Zeppelinpost in the Reich and the rest of Europe was RM 1,00 for letters and 0,50Rpf. for postcards. this was for LZ 127, LZ129 and LZ 130.
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Thank you for this interesting thread, it does seem odd that there is not a well known, definitive reference on rates.
It could be argued that many (most?) Zep covers are philatelic in nature. I think this opinion is based upon the fact that flying mail was by far the most profitable aspect of the service and amount of catering that went into flying the mail.
If a postal service were to replicate the Zep program today; would there not be heated discussions about the profiteering nature of something like this (aka the US 'Inverted Jenny sheets' from a few years ago)?
Don
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I've been looking at numerous covers and postcards on various sites, including crash covers from the Hindenburg. I tried to eliminate those that are obviously philatelic, in that they were franked with strange combinations (blocks), or sets (eg. olympic games).
From those left, it would appear that the postcard rate to the USA may have been 75 Pf, and the 20 Gr letter rate; 125 Pf.
One odd postcard was franked 65 Pf, yet was not marked as underpaid (if the rate was 75 Pf). This suggests to me that the rate checking of Hindenburg mail (which was carried out both before the flight and onboard the flight) seems not to have been as rigorous as would normally be expected.
The rates I mentioned are just conjecture on my part but may be a reasonable starting point.
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Conjecture is good.
I have a Hindenburg airship cover (shown) from Germany to the USA that is franked with 3 attached 25 pfennig Hindenburg stamps; the three stamps make up an incomplete block of four. The upper right corner of the partial block is the stamp that is missing. I have examined that blank area very carefully and can find no evidence/gum residue of a stamp being placed there and later falling off from that corner spot. Also there is no cancellation partial markings. Looking at the three postmarks of the three stamps seem to indicate, judging from the pattern, that if a stamp did fall off--one would see a partial postmark on the envelope as we see for three other stamps. The placement of the partial block in this horizontal manner seems right to me since the cover address would be partially covered if the partial block was placed vertically.
Whether or not it is significant: I note that the inscription at top directing the cover to be mailed aboard the Hindenburg is a different ink than that used in the address.
Note also along the bottom of the reverse side of the cover, collector notations have been made: Sieger 437b (that appears to correspond with the airship handstamp in the book), some numbers followed by what appears to be the name or word Habira and at the extreme right there is what looks like a German proofer marking--the name followed by what looks like BP which I believe means Bundes Prufer. I recall reading at one time that the location of the proofer's marking may be an indication that:
a. item is real
b. item is fake.
Anyone have info on the placement of such a marking.
This is the cover that began my quest for proper franking of airship Hindenburg rates from Germany to USA because of the partial block equaling 75 pfennig and also because it is one of the few Hindenburg airship covers I have seen that hasn't been dressed up for philatelic or propaganda purposes.
My quest continues.
Bruce
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Yet another inconsistency going by that rate. And note the destination: California. Unless of course there was no further charge for the other side of the USA; some 2440 miles extra!
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Yes, the extra miles to California perplexed me, also.
Bruce
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" I recall reading at one time that the location of the proofer's marking may be an indication that:
a. item is real
b. item is fake."
The Proof Zeichen is in the right place. I have sent many Covers to be proofed.
Also the rate is good. The 4 marked on the top left is the weight (4 grams). So a letter up to 5 grams = 0,50 Rpf.(Zeppelin charge), plus 0,25 Rpf. for a Letter up to 20 grams =,75 Rpf. Also I don´t think that a letter would cost more because it must be delivered far from the place where it landed. A ship can only travel as far as the coast, and the rate would stay the same even if the letter went far inland.
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Thanks for identifying the 4 as a 4. I can clearly see that now. It's interesting to me how manuscript markings can be abstruse at one moment and so clear, the next.
Also identifying the correct placement of the proofer mark and rate.
Bruce
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08:39:49pm
Hello,
Does anyone happen to know what the minimum postage rate was for a letter carried aboard the airship Hindenburg from Germany to the USA?
Can't seem to find it.
Thanks,
Bruce
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re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Ran across this quote - don't know how accurate it is, as this info seems quite hard to verify;
"This is a hard topic to research, but as best I found out the 65c was for a postcard and $1.30 on one segment of the total flight, and $2.60 carried a letter all the way. $3.90 (and aren’t we lucky they didn’t issue another stamp for that?) would cover the round trip mailing of a letter. These were the 1930 rates. I see some covers with all 3 1930 stamps, but believe that was for philatelic reasons. As for the 1933 stamp, it carried a letter across the Atlantic for just 50c. "
Randy
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Auctions
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Randy, looks like you're quoting rates FROM the US rather than FROM Germany
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12:18:25pm
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Thanks, Randy but these are the U.S. rates but trying to find the German rates seem just as perplexing.
Bruce
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Auctions - Approvals
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
I think you should try to get hold of either the Sieger or the Michel Zeppelin catalogue. The latter has just been completely revised.
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re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
1936-37, 0,50 RM per 5 Gr = foreign fee. (card 15 Pf, letter to 20 Gr 25 Pf, each additional 20 Gr +15 Pf).
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re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Opa,
Looking at those rates has left me confused. The website, ( http://www.airships.net/zeppelin-mail/hindenburg-covers/ ) shows images of flown covers with strangely high rates and inconsistent frankings (look at the registered versus non-registered covers). In addition, there is mention of a forged cover rated at 0,55 Pf. Here is the comment:
"Bock made the glaring error of franking the covers with the wrong amount of postage (.55 Rpf, a rate for printed matter that was not valid on this flight)."
This implies to me that the rates were higher than normal.
Based on those images and that comment, was there by any chance a 'surcharge' applied to the Hindenburg flights?
I have a last flight cover dropped in Germany with a 100 pf franking, which muddies the water even more, as whilst it seems to fit with your '20 GR 25 Pf, each additional 20 Gr +15 Pf', it would make my cover 120 Gr. This seems excessive for such a very flimsy envelope!
Or have I got this completely wrong.
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re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
A-ha!
Thanks for the correction David and Bruce.
Randy
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08:22:41pm
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Opa: Where did you get those rates? That might be additionally helpful.
Ningpo: It seems that franking, that may be over franking, was done in mind with the propaganda appeal of certain issues slapped on covers regardless of rate. Just an observation.
Musicman:
Jansimon: I have the Michel and Zieger zep catalogues but could not find the rates table similar to the ones that the specialized Michel Germany have in those editions.
Bruce
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this post
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
It looks like a favor cancelled cover to me.
Perhaps that's why the rate doesn't make sense.
Just a thought.
Lars
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this post
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
The cover is 100% real. The letter was never intended to go to North America. Look at the address, Bremerhaven, a city in north Germany. At the top is stamped in a red square
" Wegen ausfall der Deutschlandfahrt Postabwurf bei Nordamericafahrt" this translates to,
(as best as I can), because of flight cancelation of the German Flight, Mail was dropped by North Americaflight. There are many of these covers, Letters and Postcards.
Also please look at the Big red round Cancel. "DEUTSCHLANDFAHRT" or GERMANFLIGHT.
See also here. http://www.luftfahrtarchiv-koeln.de/hindenburg.htm
As far as the Tariff, there are a lot of special rates for different type of Covers and Postcards as well as the flights in those years. This is a very specialized collectors area. As has been mentioned many covers were made for collectors.
I got the rates from a German zeppelin fan site I found. Someone showed a page from a catalog. I don´t collect these myself, can´t collect everything.
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01:25:34pm
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Ningpo: I looked at your posting again and tend to agree with you that there may have been some sort of surcharge associated with airship air mail flights versus the regular air mail rate.
Now, if only I could find out what that basic rate plus possible airship surcharge would have been for a letter leaving from Germany to USA so that I can differentiate between a properly postage franking and on over franked cover.
Again, unless I am mistaken, I have not seen a rate table in the Michel Zeppelin Specialized 2003 catalogue or the Sieger Zeppelin book--seems incredible to me.
Bruce
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this post
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
This might also help for the cover shown above. From 1934 to 1939 the tariff for letters that went by Zeppelinpost in the Reich and the rest of Europe was RM 1,00 for letters and 0,50Rpf. for postcards. this was for LZ 127, LZ129 and LZ 130.
Login to Like
this post
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Thank you for this interesting thread, it does seem odd that there is not a well known, definitive reference on rates.
It could be argued that many (most?) Zep covers are philatelic in nature. I think this opinion is based upon the fact that flying mail was by far the most profitable aspect of the service and amount of catering that went into flying the mail.
If a postal service were to replicate the Zep program today; would there not be heated discussions about the profiteering nature of something like this (aka the US 'Inverted Jenny sheets' from a few years ago)?
Don
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this post
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
I've been looking at numerous covers and postcards on various sites, including crash covers from the Hindenburg. I tried to eliminate those that are obviously philatelic, in that they were franked with strange combinations (blocks), or sets (eg. olympic games).
From those left, it would appear that the postcard rate to the USA may have been 75 Pf, and the 20 Gr letter rate; 125 Pf.
One odd postcard was franked 65 Pf, yet was not marked as underpaid (if the rate was 75 Pf). This suggests to me that the rate checking of Hindenburg mail (which was carried out both before the flight and onboard the flight) seems not to have been as rigorous as would normally be expected.
The rates I mentioned are just conjecture on my part but may be a reasonable starting point.
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12:44:37pm
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Conjecture is good.
I have a Hindenburg airship cover (shown) from Germany to the USA that is franked with 3 attached 25 pfennig Hindenburg stamps; the three stamps make up an incomplete block of four. The upper right corner of the partial block is the stamp that is missing. I have examined that blank area very carefully and can find no evidence/gum residue of a stamp being placed there and later falling off from that corner spot. Also there is no cancellation partial markings. Looking at the three postmarks of the three stamps seem to indicate, judging from the pattern, that if a stamp did fall off--one would see a partial postmark on the envelope as we see for three other stamps. The placement of the partial block in this horizontal manner seems right to me since the cover address would be partially covered if the partial block was placed vertically.
Whether or not it is significant: I note that the inscription at top directing the cover to be mailed aboard the Hindenburg is a different ink than that used in the address.
Note also along the bottom of the reverse side of the cover, collector notations have been made: Sieger 437b (that appears to correspond with the airship handstamp in the book), some numbers followed by what appears to be the name or word Habira and at the extreme right there is what looks like a German proofer marking--the name followed by what looks like BP which I believe means Bundes Prufer. I recall reading at one time that the location of the proofer's marking may be an indication that:
a. item is real
b. item is fake.
Anyone have info on the placement of such a marking.
This is the cover that began my quest for proper franking of airship Hindenburg rates from Germany to USA because of the partial block equaling 75 pfennig and also because it is one of the few Hindenburg airship covers I have seen that hasn't been dressed up for philatelic or propaganda purposes.
My quest continues.
Bruce
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re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Yet another inconsistency going by that rate. And note the destination: California. Unless of course there was no further charge for the other side of the USA; some 2440 miles extra!
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02:24:11pm
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Yes, the extra miles to California perplexed me, also.
Bruce
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re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
" I recall reading at one time that the location of the proofer's marking may be an indication that:
a. item is real
b. item is fake."
The Proof Zeichen is in the right place. I have sent many Covers to be proofed.
Also the rate is good. The 4 marked on the top left is the weight (4 grams). So a letter up to 5 grams = 0,50 Rpf.(Zeppelin charge), plus 0,25 Rpf. for a Letter up to 20 grams =,75 Rpf. Also I don´t think that a letter would cost more because it must be delivered far from the place where it landed. A ship can only travel as far as the coast, and the rate would stay the same even if the letter went far inland.
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06:45:39pm
re: Airship Hindenburg Germany To USA Rate
Thanks for identifying the 4 as a 4. I can clearly see that now. It's interesting to me how manuscript markings can be abstruse at one moment and so clear, the next.
Also identifying the correct placement of the proofer mark and rate.
Bruce
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