Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It occurred to me to do this when I was going through a large batch of Washingtons and Franklins and came across a badly repaired 518b in used condition. That stamp may not have any real monetary value anymore. It does serve the purpose as great reference. Two ways now that I think about it one as a shade variety and the other is a what not to do. In the same batch I found some other fakes also. I guess this is how it all starts.
Has anyone else done this too?
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It's nice to see that I'm not the only one thats doing the same thing. It'll save me the trip to Denver just to use the reference library at the RMPL and build my collection at the same time.
Jeremy
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Reference collections are essential for any degree of specialisation.
I collect used GB Machins, in all their variations, and sometimes papers are not easy to separate, especially on specific values. I have a collection of positively identified copies, with which to compare new acquisitions. Some of these are in fact damaged, but IF they are positively identified by postmarked date or by calculation using dates of issue of other stamps used in conjunction with them, it is a legitimate use for damaged stamps.
You can use the same system of what I call "control copies" for any complex stamps series. It is far easier to compare a stamp with a known example before you start going through a complex series of tests. I have to say that it is not infallible - sometimes you have to through the whole gamut anyway.
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You're absolutely correct and I'm learning this fact now. Now that I'm retired I can devote the time to do so. Another advantage to having my own reference collection is the fact I don't have to rely on an expertise service or anyone else to identify my stamps for me thats part of the hobby anyway. Besides I really don't want to shell out that kind of money anyway without some degree of certainty about what I have in the first place.
As you've pointed out it makes no sense to me either to throw away certain stamps that are damaged if a legitimate use can be found for them. A reference collection fills that niche nicely. I also learned that the private expertise service companies and the APS do the same thing and they use many of the same references we use. Scott, Michel, Stanley Gibbons and The Experts Book just to name a few. The list of references and mediums in edition to the internet is far to long for me to list.
I hadn't thought to give my method a name. I'm sure our methods don't vary that much. I've found mind to be very easy to repeat and achieve positive results. So far I've been able to put together six different reference collections; the largest so far being the U.S. 1894 Bureau series. I realize now that I should've done this years ago and cringe when I think about how much I let get away from me.
I'll post some pictures when I get a new scanner.
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How do you know for sure that it is a #518a? I have around 40 518's and there what appears to be s few different shades. How about scanning and posting it with a regular 518 for comparison.
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I will as soon as I get a new scanner. The one I have now crapped out on me.
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Sarge, The reason I asked how you knew it was a genuine 518a, is because I cannot wonder if it was identified by someone else as 518a, either marked on the reverse or in an album space marked as 518b. One should never take for granted what someone else has identified a
higher value stamp unless they are an expert. Time after time you will see such stamps
mis-identified in a collection as the person who identified them often does not know anymore about the stamp than the buyer. You should never rely on just any ones I.D.
518a is a rare stamp damaged or not
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I had the same apprehensiveness when I discovered it in a dealers box of discounted stamps years ago. You should know the type. The old cat box with thousands of stamps in it at five cents a piece and of course I bought it at the time to fill the space as a regular 518. I can't remember when I bought it. Like you've described it was marked on the back 518b and has a large poorly repaired tear approximately 10 mm in length.
It wasn't until recently that I took the time to watermark and check the color against my color gauges that I realized it is in my eyes a 518b. So being still skeptical I had my wife whom has no interest in the hobby look at it against the color gauges. She came to the same conclusion and still being skeptical I took it with me to the last stamp club meeting and had a former stamp dealer look at it and he came to the same conclusion. His name is Arthur Ackley who was the owner of Ackley's rocks and stamps who retired 2 years ago and sold the remainder of his stock to Shane Clinard another dealer here in Colorado Springs whom only sells on eBay now.
I don't take anything for granted and more often than not still double check and triple check almost everything that I do. That is the primary reason why I post and visit this web sight as often as I do now. I honestly value the input you and every member places into every post that I read. It takes time, thought. Moreover it proves to me that you plus all of the members of this forum care and want to preserve the hobby as much I do.
Jeremy
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Gentlemen,
Please bear with me as I am still learning, even at my old age. None of my catalogues mention a 518a, only a 518b. It was not until I went to my set of White's Encyclopedia of Colors that I found a 518a. The (b) is dark brown while the (a) is violet black. The 518 is violet brown. Where can I find more information on the 518a? The reason I ask is, I have what, at least to me, appears to be the violet black variety. At least is has the violet part. The only color chart I have for the violet black is White's Encyclopedia and my copy matches. If there is other information regarding the 518a, would you be so kind as to point me in that direction. I want to do more comparison before sending for certification. By the way, I am not holding my breath that it is the 518a, I'm not that lucky.
Thanks for all the help.
Mel
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Scott 518b is one of those stamps which require using a reference copy (stamp) for color matching.
Don
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Thats exactly why I'm putting together a reference collection.
Jeremy
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Jeremy, With all the input you have gotten it sounds pretty likely that you have a 518b but without a scan I cold not venture a guess.
Mel, Sorry to confuse but I meant 518b not 518a and I have corrected that in my previous post. A year or so ago I had a conversation with some one about this stamp. I drug out all my 518's (around 40) from stock and found that there were several fairly distinct variations in color, although Scott only lists the Violet Brown (518) and Deep Brown (518b). Because of these variations it makes it a little confusing but all of them had at least a hint of Violet. It is curious why Scott only lists the two and has skipped a 518a variety completely. What is the value of a 518a given by your reference that lists one?
One thing that everyone should remember when classifying colors is to look at the most solid area of color on the stamp and this often takes a magnifying glass to see it correctly. Looking at shaded areas will of course give you a lighter shade but not neccesarily the correct one.
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Antonius,
My reference is only for colors and does not give any values. One of the reasons I am trying to find more information on the "a". Oh, and I am not holding my breath that it is a 518b either. Here is a scan, but the scan does not do it justice as far as color.
Added: I just looked at the 518 and 518b on Colnect. If their images are anywhere near correct, then my stamp is somewhere in between, but closer to the "b".
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After taking some time to go back through to posts for this thread. My first post started out with 518b as the focus of my topic not 518a and it is the biggest reason why I've started my reference collections. It is very interesting to find out that at one time there was a designation of 518a.
Mel,
Thank you for your contributions to the topic. I never knew of the existence of the Whites Encyclopedia of color for US postage stamps. You taught me something. I'll now be on the lookout for a copy. I can only guess that the designation was dropped to save space in the catalogs and reduce printing costs.
Jeremy
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I found this article on the web while searching for a copy of the reference that Mel suggested and thought it would support the topic and brings up a lot of valid points.
"Collectors using the Scott catalog will see the term “violet” used for two different stamps. They put those two stamps side by side and the colors are as different as night and day. Why aren’t the colors consistent across all issues?
There are several reasons. First of all, different editors over the years use different terms to describe the stamp color. A deep orange to one person may be orange-red to someone else. Color descriptions have fluctuated over the years due to different people being involved in assigning the color names.
Second, there is no universally accepted color chart as far as I know. Yes, there are standard color charts in use, but none that I know are used universally and consistently. Without an accepted standard and without scientific analysis to do color matching, the process of determining a color name is somewhat subjective.
Third, and this is the most important point, when assigning names to a color in the catalog, the editors compare copies of the same stamp issue. They don’t compare stamps from different issues. Let’s walk through a simple example.
Take Scott #70c which is described as violet and Scott #302 which is also described as violet. Put the two together and the stamps do not have the same color. They will never even come close. Why?
Scott #70 is normally printed in a lilac or gray lilac. There are several different shades of this stamp. One of them merits a minor catalog number, #70c which is described as violet. I’m going to over simplify the situation, but catalog editors will line up many copies of Scott #70 and they will lump them into groups of various shades where copies within a group are identical or nearly so. One of the groups they will create is for copies of #70 that have more of a violet color than others. They call those stamps Scott #70c and put the term violet on that group. However, the base color of the stamp is a lilac or gray lilac color. To me, when I look at Scott #70c, I see a strong gray looking color with an added hint of violet. Whereas the Scott #70 is a gray looking stamp without the extra hint of violet. The catalog editors never put a Scott #302 next to a #70c and say, “Geez guys, these stamps do (or don’t) look a lot alike. Let’s call them the same (or different) color.”
When the catalog editors evaluate Scott #302, they line up multiple copies of that stamp. They won’t bring out any copies of Scott #70c for comparison.
That’s why you can’t put a #70c and #302 together. It’s not how the catalog editors do it. When comparing the color of a stamp, you have to reference it against other stamps of that same issue. Not against stamps of some other issue. You can’t see violet in the catalog and assume that #70c, #302, #537, and any other violet listed stamp will have the same color.
With pre-1900 US stamps, many issues are known with different shades. Pigments used to create the printing inks were hand mixed, so there is some variance in the way the pigments were added. Some issues saw multiple printings over a period of several years. Through the use of postal history, it’s possible to determine approximately when stamps of a certain shade were printed. They didn’t keep precise records in the 1800s. The formula for mixing pigments for a stamp one year may be a little different than the formula for mixing pigments for another run of the printing presses in subsequent years.
The standard bible for colors in early US stamps is the Roy H. White set of books, “Encyclopedia Of The Colors Of United States Postage Stamps Volumes I-IV: Issue 1847-1919.” A set of these books will cost you about $500. If you are interested in shades of early US stamps, the books are indispensible. They will aid you greatly in determining the differences between shades of the early stamp issues. If you’re interested in color, I highly recommend a set."
Jeremy
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Mbo, Your stamp is just a run of the mill 518, maybe a little darker than some but definetley has a Violet tinge to it.
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Sorry for the delay in posting a scan of the stamp that has peeked so much response and has been the topic for debate. 
As you can see it has had the tear repaired once upon a time. It runs about 3mm from the back of Franklins head to about 9mm from the bottom right corner and runs in diagonal direction from the wreath to about the middle of the stamp.
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Here's the back of the stamp that shows more detail of the repair. 
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This is an image of a run of the mill 518 violet brown.
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My second copy of a potential 518b.
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Interesting discussion. Shows just how hard it is at times to try and ID stamps. Color being the most difficult. Shown is a copy of my #460 (violet black) and my previous #518 (violet brown). Also an image from White's Encyclopedia of The Colors of United States Postage Stamps. Although the scan is not the greatest, you can tell just how subtle it is to tell the difference.
My #460 on the left and #518 on right.
Are we having fun yet 
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If the colors are objectively measured and then name, how can subjective naming be objective?
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Mel your contribution to this topic has been outstanding. I see that I need to obtain my own copy of the Whites Encyclopedia of The Colors of United States Postage Stamps. I think it's a safe bet that none of my copies are 518b at all.
Thanks again.
Jeremy
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Over the years as VP of Engineering at several technology companies I learned a lot about color matching. One of the standards in color identification is Pantone. You can purchase various color charts and chips from them and they sell color matching equipment.
But whether it is set of color chips, or books, (or the stamp itself) the unfortunate issue here is that they all change color over time. So having color chips/examples in a book is not a panacea. All color chips and books have a 'shelf life' of a few years. They need to be replaced frequently to be considered accurate.
I would also point out that having a color discussion in the absence of a specification for ambient light condition is not intellectually honest. It is absolutely critical that ambient light source(s) be defined when discussing colors. Humans perceive colors based upon how the object reflects light. So obviously ambient light has to be a part of any color discussion. A trip to any grocery store will demonstrate how they use different light spectrums to influence colors; those apples and tomatoes in Produce department look red because they are using a specific light to make them look that way.
Stamp color is by far the most difficult aspect of collecting. And one in which technology has probably made worse since we now have added another layer of complexity (scanning and image processing) to it.
At some point there will probably be a technology answer for this problem (i.e. chemical analysis of the ink) but right now I firmly believe the best a hobbyists can do is build a quality reference collection of the same stamp and develop a very good eye. Tip: females have been proven to be better at determining colors than males.
Don
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Great points Don.
I can only surmise that the books of reference that have been discussed in this thread should only be used to get close to the actual color and shouldn't be used as the determining medium to identify colors. Color gauges should be used with same reservation. Limited to only getting close and not 100% color identification. That is the reason why we build reference collections.
While all of this sounds like a monumental undertaking I've discovered it really isn't all that hard and its made me a better philatelist for it. Having a reference collection will save me money in the long run. This thread brings that very point to light. If the stamp I'd sent in to be expertised was a actual 518b I would've had to pay the company that provided the service 5% to 8% of the total retail value.
I bet some of you are wondering where are you going with this. Bear with me and I'll explain. If the stamp in question retails for $1250 then 5% of that sum is $62.50 not really all that much if I plan on keeping it. What if I plan to sell it?
Here is where it gets a little tricky $1250 seems like a pretty good profit doesn't it? In reality I'll be lucky to bring 30% of that sum is $375. But wait a minute that isn't correct either I haven't deducted my initial investment, listing fees, final sale fees, shipping & handling and lets not forget insurance for the buyer that wants purchase it. What happened to the potential profit. I tell you what happened it never existed in the first place. That is the harsh world we live in ladies and gentlemen.
I'm glad that I've determined it's just a plain old 518 now.
Jeremy
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Don's point about ambient light is critically important:
"I would also point out that having a color discussion in the absence of a specification for ambient light condition is not intellectually honest. It is absolutely critical that ambient light source(s) be defined when discussing colors."
When working with stamps where color shades are important, you need to consider having proper and controllable lighting. It really does make a difference. Photographers and graphic designers and many others control their lighting because the quality of their work depends on it. If they're working digitally, they know how important color management is there as well.
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Jeremy, Yes, I agree and have no doubt what so ever that the stamps you have shown are #518. There is an obvious Violet tinge to them. Even considering the differences from one scanner to another I doubt they would add Violet to the mix.
Et al, Many years ago I found that there were quite a few people who did not realize that they were at least partially color blind until they started collecting stamps.
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I agree the scanner wouldn't add violet to the image unless the surface bed glass was contaminated somehow with dirt or oils from hands. I do my best to keep mine clean. If anything it has been a valuable tool to help bring to light the proper identification of my stamps by magnifying the image enough to see the colors for what they really are. Knowing what I know now they will definitely serve the purpose nicely for reference material.
I'll be posting some more material in little while. The topic for that discussion will be 319 types and color shade varieties. I imagine it will be just as interesting to see some of the responses to my post.
Jeremy
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06:06:03pm
I was getting ready to make a donation to the Rocky Mountain Philatelic Library and stopped dead in my tracks after realizing I was about to make a mistake. As it turns out I've been able to start an excellent reference collection with what I thought were duplicates. Surprisingly some of them are quite valuable. Shade varieties, types and fakes are just the start for me I'm sure.
It occurred to me to do this when I was going through a large batch of Washingtons and Franklins and came across a badly repaired 518b in used condition. That stamp may not have any real monetary value anymore. It does serve the purpose as great reference. Two ways now that I think about it one as a shade variety and the other is a what not to do. In the same batch I found some other fakes also. I guess this is how it all starts.
Has anyone else done this too?
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10:06:41pm
re: Un-charted territory
It's nice to see that I'm not the only one thats doing the same thing. It'll save me the trip to Denver just to use the reference library at the RMPL and build my collection at the same time.
Jeremy
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01:32:01pm
re: Un-charted territory
Reference collections are essential for any degree of specialisation.
I collect used GB Machins, in all their variations, and sometimes papers are not easy to separate, especially on specific values. I have a collection of positively identified copies, with which to compare new acquisitions. Some of these are in fact damaged, but IF they are positively identified by postmarked date or by calculation using dates of issue of other stamps used in conjunction with them, it is a legitimate use for damaged stamps.
You can use the same system of what I call "control copies" for any complex stamps series. It is far easier to compare a stamp with a known example before you start going through a complex series of tests. I have to say that it is not infallible - sometimes you have to through the whole gamut anyway.
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06:13:08pm
re: Un-charted territory
You're absolutely correct and I'm learning this fact now. Now that I'm retired I can devote the time to do so. Another advantage to having my own reference collection is the fact I don't have to rely on an expertise service or anyone else to identify my stamps for me thats part of the hobby anyway. Besides I really don't want to shell out that kind of money anyway without some degree of certainty about what I have in the first place.
As you've pointed out it makes no sense to me either to throw away certain stamps that are damaged if a legitimate use can be found for them. A reference collection fills that niche nicely. I also learned that the private expertise service companies and the APS do the same thing and they use many of the same references we use. Scott, Michel, Stanley Gibbons and The Experts Book just to name a few. The list of references and mediums in edition to the internet is far to long for me to list.
I hadn't thought to give my method a name. I'm sure our methods don't vary that much. I've found mind to be very easy to repeat and achieve positive results. So far I've been able to put together six different reference collections; the largest so far being the U.S. 1894 Bureau series. I realize now that I should've done this years ago and cringe when I think about how much I let get away from me.
I'll post some pictures when I get a new scanner.
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re: Un-charted territory
How do you know for sure that it is a #518a? I have around 40 518's and there what appears to be s few different shades. How about scanning and posting it with a regular 518 for comparison.
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09:46:18pm
re: Un-charted territory
I will as soon as I get a new scanner. The one I have now crapped out on me.
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re: Un-charted territory
Sarge, The reason I asked how you knew it was a genuine 518a, is because I cannot wonder if it was identified by someone else as 518a, either marked on the reverse or in an album space marked as 518b. One should never take for granted what someone else has identified a
higher value stamp unless they are an expert. Time after time you will see such stamps
mis-identified in a collection as the person who identified them often does not know anymore about the stamp than the buyer. You should never rely on just any ones I.D.
518a is a rare stamp damaged or not
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01:19:01am
re: Un-charted territory
I had the same apprehensiveness when I discovered it in a dealers box of discounted stamps years ago. You should know the type. The old cat box with thousands of stamps in it at five cents a piece and of course I bought it at the time to fill the space as a regular 518. I can't remember when I bought it. Like you've described it was marked on the back 518b and has a large poorly repaired tear approximately 10 mm in length.
It wasn't until recently that I took the time to watermark and check the color against my color gauges that I realized it is in my eyes a 518b. So being still skeptical I had my wife whom has no interest in the hobby look at it against the color gauges. She came to the same conclusion and still being skeptical I took it with me to the last stamp club meeting and had a former stamp dealer look at it and he came to the same conclusion. His name is Arthur Ackley who was the owner of Ackley's rocks and stamps who retired 2 years ago and sold the remainder of his stock to Shane Clinard another dealer here in Colorado Springs whom only sells on eBay now.
I don't take anything for granted and more often than not still double check and triple check almost everything that I do. That is the primary reason why I post and visit this web sight as often as I do now. I honestly value the input you and every member places into every post that I read. It takes time, thought. Moreover it proves to me that you plus all of the members of this forum care and want to preserve the hobby as much I do.
Jeremy
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re: Un-charted territory
Gentlemen,
Please bear with me as I am still learning, even at my old age. None of my catalogues mention a 518a, only a 518b. It was not until I went to my set of White's Encyclopedia of Colors that I found a 518a. The (b) is dark brown while the (a) is violet black. The 518 is violet brown. Where can I find more information on the 518a? The reason I ask is, I have what, at least to me, appears to be the violet black variety. At least is has the violet part. The only color chart I have for the violet black is White's Encyclopedia and my copy matches. If there is other information regarding the 518a, would you be so kind as to point me in that direction. I want to do more comparison before sending for certification. By the way, I am not holding my breath that it is the 518a, I'm not that lucky.
Thanks for all the help.
Mel
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re: Un-charted territory
Scott 518b is one of those stamps which require using a reference copy (stamp) for color matching.
Don
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08:08:05pm
re: Un-charted territory
Thats exactly why I'm putting together a reference collection.
Jeremy
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re: Un-charted territory
Jeremy, With all the input you have gotten it sounds pretty likely that you have a 518b but without a scan I cold not venture a guess.
Mel, Sorry to confuse but I meant 518b not 518a and I have corrected that in my previous post. A year or so ago I had a conversation with some one about this stamp. I drug out all my 518's (around 40) from stock and found that there were several fairly distinct variations in color, although Scott only lists the Violet Brown (518) and Deep Brown (518b). Because of these variations it makes it a little confusing but all of them had at least a hint of Violet. It is curious why Scott only lists the two and has skipped a 518a variety completely. What is the value of a 518a given by your reference that lists one?
One thing that everyone should remember when classifying colors is to look at the most solid area of color on the stamp and this often takes a magnifying glass to see it correctly. Looking at shaded areas will of course give you a lighter shade but not neccesarily the correct one.
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re: Un-charted territory
Antonius,
My reference is only for colors and does not give any values. One of the reasons I am trying to find more information on the "a". Oh, and I am not holding my breath that it is a 518b either. Here is a scan, but the scan does not do it justice as far as color.
Added: I just looked at the 518 and 518b on Colnect. If their images are anywhere near correct, then my stamp is somewhere in between, but closer to the "b".
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02:23:52pm
re: Un-charted territory
After taking some time to go back through to posts for this thread. My first post started out with 518b as the focus of my topic not 518a and it is the biggest reason why I've started my reference collections. It is very interesting to find out that at one time there was a designation of 518a.
Mel,
Thank you for your contributions to the topic. I never knew of the existence of the Whites Encyclopedia of color for US postage stamps. You taught me something. I'll now be on the lookout for a copy. I can only guess that the designation was dropped to save space in the catalogs and reduce printing costs.
Jeremy
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08:51:24pm
re: Un-charted territory
I found this article on the web while searching for a copy of the reference that Mel suggested and thought it would support the topic and brings up a lot of valid points.
"Collectors using the Scott catalog will see the term “violet” used for two different stamps. They put those two stamps side by side and the colors are as different as night and day. Why aren’t the colors consistent across all issues?
There are several reasons. First of all, different editors over the years use different terms to describe the stamp color. A deep orange to one person may be orange-red to someone else. Color descriptions have fluctuated over the years due to different people being involved in assigning the color names.
Second, there is no universally accepted color chart as far as I know. Yes, there are standard color charts in use, but none that I know are used universally and consistently. Without an accepted standard and without scientific analysis to do color matching, the process of determining a color name is somewhat subjective.
Third, and this is the most important point, when assigning names to a color in the catalog, the editors compare copies of the same stamp issue. They don’t compare stamps from different issues. Let’s walk through a simple example.
Take Scott #70c which is described as violet and Scott #302 which is also described as violet. Put the two together and the stamps do not have the same color. They will never even come close. Why?
Scott #70 is normally printed in a lilac or gray lilac. There are several different shades of this stamp. One of them merits a minor catalog number, #70c which is described as violet. I’m going to over simplify the situation, but catalog editors will line up many copies of Scott #70 and they will lump them into groups of various shades where copies within a group are identical or nearly so. One of the groups they will create is for copies of #70 that have more of a violet color than others. They call those stamps Scott #70c and put the term violet on that group. However, the base color of the stamp is a lilac or gray lilac color. To me, when I look at Scott #70c, I see a strong gray looking color with an added hint of violet. Whereas the Scott #70 is a gray looking stamp without the extra hint of violet. The catalog editors never put a Scott #302 next to a #70c and say, “Geez guys, these stamps do (or don’t) look a lot alike. Let’s call them the same (or different) color.”
When the catalog editors evaluate Scott #302, they line up multiple copies of that stamp. They won’t bring out any copies of Scott #70c for comparison.
That’s why you can’t put a #70c and #302 together. It’s not how the catalog editors do it. When comparing the color of a stamp, you have to reference it against other stamps of that same issue. Not against stamps of some other issue. You can’t see violet in the catalog and assume that #70c, #302, #537, and any other violet listed stamp will have the same color.
With pre-1900 US stamps, many issues are known with different shades. Pigments used to create the printing inks were hand mixed, so there is some variance in the way the pigments were added. Some issues saw multiple printings over a period of several years. Through the use of postal history, it’s possible to determine approximately when stamps of a certain shade were printed. They didn’t keep precise records in the 1800s. The formula for mixing pigments for a stamp one year may be a little different than the formula for mixing pigments for another run of the printing presses in subsequent years.
The standard bible for colors in early US stamps is the Roy H. White set of books, “Encyclopedia Of The Colors Of United States Postage Stamps Volumes I-IV: Issue 1847-1919.” A set of these books will cost you about $500. If you are interested in shades of early US stamps, the books are indispensible. They will aid you greatly in determining the differences between shades of the early stamp issues. If you’re interested in color, I highly recommend a set."
Jeremy
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re: Un-charted territory
Mbo, Your stamp is just a run of the mill 518, maybe a little darker than some but definetley has a Violet tinge to it.
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08:55:36pm
re: Un-charted territory
Sorry for the delay in posting a scan of the stamp that has peeked so much response and has been the topic for debate.
As you can see it has had the tear repaired once upon a time. It runs about 3mm from the back of Franklins head to about 9mm from the bottom right corner and runs in diagonal direction from the wreath to about the middle of the stamp.
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09:08:49pm
re: Un-charted territory
Here's the back of the stamp that shows more detail of the repair.
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09:11:56pm
re: Un-charted territory
This is an image of a run of the mill 518 violet brown.
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09:15:41pm
re: Un-charted territory
My second copy of a potential 518b.
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re: Un-charted territory
Interesting discussion. Shows just how hard it is at times to try and ID stamps. Color being the most difficult. Shown is a copy of my #460 (violet black) and my previous #518 (violet brown). Also an image from White's Encyclopedia of The Colors of United States Postage Stamps. Although the scan is not the greatest, you can tell just how subtle it is to tell the difference.
My #460 on the left and #518 on right.
Are we having fun yet
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re: Un-charted territory
If the colors are objectively measured and then name, how can subjective naming be objective?
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02:08:19pm
re: Un-charted territory
Mel your contribution to this topic has been outstanding. I see that I need to obtain my own copy of the Whites Encyclopedia of The Colors of United States Postage Stamps. I think it's a safe bet that none of my copies are 518b at all.
Thanks again.
Jeremy
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re: Un-charted territory
Over the years as VP of Engineering at several technology companies I learned a lot about color matching. One of the standards in color identification is Pantone. You can purchase various color charts and chips from them and they sell color matching equipment.
But whether it is set of color chips, or books, (or the stamp itself) the unfortunate issue here is that they all change color over time. So having color chips/examples in a book is not a panacea. All color chips and books have a 'shelf life' of a few years. They need to be replaced frequently to be considered accurate.
I would also point out that having a color discussion in the absence of a specification for ambient light condition is not intellectually honest. It is absolutely critical that ambient light source(s) be defined when discussing colors. Humans perceive colors based upon how the object reflects light. So obviously ambient light has to be a part of any color discussion. A trip to any grocery store will demonstrate how they use different light spectrums to influence colors; those apples and tomatoes in Produce department look red because they are using a specific light to make them look that way.
Stamp color is by far the most difficult aspect of collecting. And one in which technology has probably made worse since we now have added another layer of complexity (scanning and image processing) to it.
At some point there will probably be a technology answer for this problem (i.e. chemical analysis of the ink) but right now I firmly believe the best a hobbyists can do is build a quality reference collection of the same stamp and develop a very good eye. Tip: females have been proven to be better at determining colors than males.
Don
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08:17:03pm
re: Un-charted territory
Great points Don.
I can only surmise that the books of reference that have been discussed in this thread should only be used to get close to the actual color and shouldn't be used as the determining medium to identify colors. Color gauges should be used with same reservation. Limited to only getting close and not 100% color identification. That is the reason why we build reference collections.
While all of this sounds like a monumental undertaking I've discovered it really isn't all that hard and its made me a better philatelist for it. Having a reference collection will save me money in the long run. This thread brings that very point to light. If the stamp I'd sent in to be expertised was a actual 518b I would've had to pay the company that provided the service 5% to 8% of the total retail value.
I bet some of you are wondering where are you going with this. Bear with me and I'll explain. If the stamp in question retails for $1250 then 5% of that sum is $62.50 not really all that much if I plan on keeping it. What if I plan to sell it?
Here is where it gets a little tricky $1250 seems like a pretty good profit doesn't it? In reality I'll be lucky to bring 30% of that sum is $375. But wait a minute that isn't correct either I haven't deducted my initial investment, listing fees, final sale fees, shipping & handling and lets not forget insurance for the buyer that wants purchase it. What happened to the potential profit. I tell you what happened it never existed in the first place. That is the harsh world we live in ladies and gentlemen.
I'm glad that I've determined it's just a plain old 518 now.
Jeremy
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re: Un-charted territory
Don's point about ambient light is critically important:
"I would also point out that having a color discussion in the absence of a specification for ambient light condition is not intellectually honest. It is absolutely critical that ambient light source(s) be defined when discussing colors."
When working with stamps where color shades are important, you need to consider having proper and controllable lighting. It really does make a difference. Photographers and graphic designers and many others control their lighting because the quality of their work depends on it. If they're working digitally, they know how important color management is there as well.
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re: Un-charted territory
Jeremy, Yes, I agree and have no doubt what so ever that the stamps you have shown are #518. There is an obvious Violet tinge to them. Even considering the differences from one scanner to another I doubt they would add Violet to the mix.
Et al, Many years ago I found that there were quite a few people who did not realize that they were at least partially color blind until they started collecting stamps.
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05:10:58pm
re: Un-charted territory
I agree the scanner wouldn't add violet to the image unless the surface bed glass was contaminated somehow with dirt or oils from hands. I do my best to keep mine clean. If anything it has been a valuable tool to help bring to light the proper identification of my stamps by magnifying the image enough to see the colors for what they really are. Knowing what I know now they will definitely serve the purpose nicely for reference material.
I'll be posting some more material in little while. The topic for that discussion will be 319 types and color shade varieties. I imagine it will be just as interesting to see some of the responses to my post.
Jeremy
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