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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : Confused on Translation

 

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Opa
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02 Apr 2017
03:54:31pm
Hello collectors,

I a bit confused with the term plate block. My thinking was that a plate block was a block of four from a sheet. This is unexpectedly not so.

If I were to tear this part of the sheet below apart, what then would be considered as such.Image Not Found

The first arrow on the left is (my translation) contract number, the right arrow is a plate number.

in advance, thank you for your help.
Manfred
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Ningpo
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02 Apr 2017
04:07:50pm
re: Confused on Translation

In my field, that would probably be described as 'plate number multiple (perhaps block, or even part sheet) with requisition number (your contract number).

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Opa
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03 Apr 2017
12:32:28pm
re: Confused on Translation

Thank you for your response Ningpo.

I think I should put my question another way. How does one define a plate block?

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smauggie
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03 Apr 2017
02:13:36pm
re: Confused on Translation

Opa - I think part of the confusion is that the term plate block may mean different things to different people. In the United States initially the engraved metal plates used to print stamps were numbered. The plate number was usually featured somewhere in the selvage of the sheet. A block containing 4, 6 or more stamps which prominently featured the plate number in the selvage was called a plate block in US stamp collecting. The Scott US Specialized Catalog of stamps and covers defines how many stamps should be in a plate number block. Generally the block should not have any separation of perfs and feature the full selvage around the plate number.

Some stamp issues only have 1-3 plates that were used, others, where the plate was used for a long time or for lots of stamps might have upwards of 50 different plate numbers for that stamp. Each plate number also definitively identified which stamp it was that was printed with that plate.

Of course these days plate numbers are still used on US stamps even though they are not often printed using an engraved plate as a matter of convention (and an attempt of the US Postal Service still trying to cater to collectors).

But all these terms and understandings only applied to US stamps. I do not even know if any other country used the same plate numbering system that the US did. Sure, there are a lot of numbers in the selvage of stamps printed from other countries including your block, but I would assume they would have their own definitions of what the numbers were meant to stand for or for what reason they were printed or otherwise made to appear on the selvage.

To that end I don't think that the term "plate block" would necessarily be a universal term to use with regard to all countries that produce(d) stamps though it could apply in some cases.

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Opa
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03 Apr 2017
03:44:05pm
re: Confused on Translation

I think I´m starting to understand and will use the term blocks of four with margin and plate number etc. instead of using the term plate block. There always seems to be that small language barrier. But this makes learning fun.

Dankeschön
Manfred

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smauggie
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03 Apr 2017
05:08:46pm
re: Confused on Translation

I guess in all that long writing of mine I had a question which I hoped you might be able to address Opa.

What exactly do those numbers on your sheet mean? What were they intended to communicate?


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Ningpo
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03 Apr 2017
10:46:44pm
re: Confused on Translation

Opa,

Perhaps images might help. These descriptions relate to British Commonwealth stamps in particular. Here is a block of four without plate number, but with a 'requisition letter'. This could be described as "upper marginal block of 4, requisition F".

Image Not Found

A requisition letter here, was used for accounting purposes. The numbers reflect the sheet number, within that requisition. Both the printer and the postal authorities could then keep track of orders made and delivered. This system was introduced to keep track of high volume definitives. Probably similar to your 'contract number'.

Here is a block of four with just a plate number. This could be described as "upper marginal plate block of 4", OR, "upper marginal block of 4 - with plate number 2":

Image Not Found

If the number of stamps were greater than 4, it doesn't matter. It can be a block of 6, 8, 12 etc. Or it can be 13, 17 etc. if it was an odd number block.

If using your sheet as an example, you tore off the bottom row of stamps between (and including) the arrows, you could describe it as, "bottom marginal plate number strip of 6, with requisition (contract) number.

But if you were to describe the whole item in your image, you could say,"lower right hand pane of 40, with marginal plate and requisition numbers".

Does this help at all, or have I confused you further?





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HungaryForStamps
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04 Apr 2017
01:19:45pm
re: Confused on Translation

I would add to smauggie's question(s):

How does a specialized catalog or the collectors for that country (Germany?) refer to multiples or partial sheets?

Also, what value (monetary or collector interest) is ascribed to multiples, partial sheets, etc, and leaving the sheet as it is?

The partial sheet looks great intact and I would keep it if I was a collector of those issues and didn't have a full sheet.

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Opa
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04 Apr 2017
03:48:31pm
re: Confused on Translation

It is actually a entire sheet, I just scanned a part of it to ask my question.
I will try to answer some of yours.

The HAN number, ´Translates to "House Contract Number". This is just like the translation says. It is basically a contract number for the printing of a stamp. There can also be multiple HAN´s for a particular stamp. The sheets were packed 20 to a envelope which were then delivered to the post offices. Stamped on the envelope was also the contract number for easy reference. These were only printed on Plate prints and not rotary print.


Image Not Found



The last number in the HAN usually behind a dot is the year the sheet was printed.
So for example H5558.22 the H5558 is the printing contract and the 22 is the year of printing .

Image Not Found

The HAN was first introduces in 1902 and was used to 1966. Many specialists (wow I spelled that without a red line) collect these since there is only one per sheet and many have been torn off. Used specimens can be very valuable.

Not every sheet in plate print has a HAN. Some where mistakes were made will simply have a bar or two between the H and the Printing year.
The HAN will always be in the main color of the stamp. If stamps have been overprinted they will have two HAN´s. The second having the color of the overprint.

Image Not Found

On some sheets there will also be letters, names etc. these are printer signatures.

Image Not Found.

The numbers on the side of a plate print are simply there for the postal clerk to help him/her count the number of stamps which have been sold. These start at the top and are counted from field position 1 to field position 91 or in the case below from 1 to 46, adding 1 stamp value for each row. At the top of the sheets are the row values, here each row is added to the next. At the bottom are simply the row numbers. Some or most sheets will have a cross or two on the margin. The crosses were used to center the paper on the plate. Most sheets will have small holes in the margins, these are not damages. They come from small nails and tacks that were used to fasten the paper to the plates. Again used stamps with crosses are rare and very desirable for the specialist.

Image Not Found

I´ll get to the plate numbers next time. My wife is nagging. I love her when she does.












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smauggie
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05 Apr 2017
07:50:19am
re: Confused on Translation

Thank you Opa for that well-written and and well documented response. I learned something new thanks to you.

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Opa

02 Apr 2017
03:54:31pm

Hello collectors,

I a bit confused with the term plate block. My thinking was that a plate block was a block of four from a sheet. This is unexpectedly not so.

If I were to tear this part of the sheet below apart, what then would be considered as such.Image Not Found

The first arrow on the left is (my translation) contract number, the right arrow is a plate number.

in advance, thank you for your help.
Manfred

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this post
Members Picture
Ningpo

02 Apr 2017
04:07:50pm

re: Confused on Translation

In my field, that would probably be described as 'plate number multiple (perhaps block, or even part sheet) with requisition number (your contract number).

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likes this post.
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Opa

03 Apr 2017
12:32:28pm

re: Confused on Translation

Thank you for your response Ningpo.

I think I should put my question another way. How does one define a plate block?

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Members Picture
smauggie

03 Apr 2017
02:13:36pm

re: Confused on Translation

Opa - I think part of the confusion is that the term plate block may mean different things to different people. In the United States initially the engraved metal plates used to print stamps were numbered. The plate number was usually featured somewhere in the selvage of the sheet. A block containing 4, 6 or more stamps which prominently featured the plate number in the selvage was called a plate block in US stamp collecting. The Scott US Specialized Catalog of stamps and covers defines how many stamps should be in a plate number block. Generally the block should not have any separation of perfs and feature the full selvage around the plate number.

Some stamp issues only have 1-3 plates that were used, others, where the plate was used for a long time or for lots of stamps might have upwards of 50 different plate numbers for that stamp. Each plate number also definitively identified which stamp it was that was printed with that plate.

Of course these days plate numbers are still used on US stamps even though they are not often printed using an engraved plate as a matter of convention (and an attempt of the US Postal Service still trying to cater to collectors).

But all these terms and understandings only applied to US stamps. I do not even know if any other country used the same plate numbering system that the US did. Sure, there are a lot of numbers in the selvage of stamps printed from other countries including your block, but I would assume they would have their own definitions of what the numbers were meant to stand for or for what reason they were printed or otherwise made to appear on the selvage.

To that end I don't think that the term "plate block" would necessarily be a universal term to use with regard to all countries that produce(d) stamps though it could apply in some cases.

Like 
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.

canalzonepostalhisto ...
Members Picture
Opa

03 Apr 2017
03:44:05pm

re: Confused on Translation

I think I´m starting to understand and will use the term blocks of four with margin and plate number etc. instead of using the term plate block. There always seems to be that small language barrier. But this makes learning fun.

Dankeschön
Manfred

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
smauggie

03 Apr 2017
05:08:46pm

re: Confused on Translation

I guess in all that long writing of mine I had a question which I hoped you might be able to address Opa.

What exactly do those numbers on your sheet mean? What were they intended to communicate?


Like
Login to Like
this post

canalzonepostalhisto ...
Members Picture
Ningpo

03 Apr 2017
10:46:44pm

re: Confused on Translation

Opa,

Perhaps images might help. These descriptions relate to British Commonwealth stamps in particular. Here is a block of four without plate number, but with a 'requisition letter'. This could be described as "upper marginal block of 4, requisition F".

Image Not Found

A requisition letter here, was used for accounting purposes. The numbers reflect the sheet number, within that requisition. Both the printer and the postal authorities could then keep track of orders made and delivered. This system was introduced to keep track of high volume definitives. Probably similar to your 'contract number'.

Here is a block of four with just a plate number. This could be described as "upper marginal plate block of 4", OR, "upper marginal block of 4 - with plate number 2":

Image Not Found

If the number of stamps were greater than 4, it doesn't matter. It can be a block of 6, 8, 12 etc. Or it can be 13, 17 etc. if it was an odd number block.

If using your sheet as an example, you tore off the bottom row of stamps between (and including) the arrows, you could describe it as, "bottom marginal plate number strip of 6, with requisition (contract) number.

But if you were to describe the whole item in your image, you could say,"lower right hand pane of 40, with marginal plate and requisition numbers".

Does this help at all, or have I confused you further?





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HungaryForStamps

04 Apr 2017
01:19:45pm

re: Confused on Translation

I would add to smauggie's question(s):

How does a specialized catalog or the collectors for that country (Germany?) refer to multiples or partial sheets?

Also, what value (monetary or collector interest) is ascribed to multiples, partial sheets, etc, and leaving the sheet as it is?

The partial sheet looks great intact and I would keep it if I was a collector of those issues and didn't have a full sheet.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
Opa

04 Apr 2017
03:48:31pm

re: Confused on Translation

It is actually a entire sheet, I just scanned a part of it to ask my question.
I will try to answer some of yours.

The HAN number, ´Translates to "House Contract Number". This is just like the translation says. It is basically a contract number for the printing of a stamp. There can also be multiple HAN´s for a particular stamp. The sheets were packed 20 to a envelope which were then delivered to the post offices. Stamped on the envelope was also the contract number for easy reference. These were only printed on Plate prints and not rotary print.


Image Not Found



The last number in the HAN usually behind a dot is the year the sheet was printed.
So for example H5558.22 the H5558 is the printing contract and the 22 is the year of printing .

Image Not Found

The HAN was first introduces in 1902 and was used to 1966. Many specialists (wow I spelled that without a red line) collect these since there is only one per sheet and many have been torn off. Used specimens can be very valuable.

Not every sheet in plate print has a HAN. Some where mistakes were made will simply have a bar or two between the H and the Printing year.
The HAN will always be in the main color of the stamp. If stamps have been overprinted they will have two HAN´s. The second having the color of the overprint.

Image Not Found

On some sheets there will also be letters, names etc. these are printer signatures.

Image Not Found.

The numbers on the side of a plate print are simply there for the postal clerk to help him/her count the number of stamps which have been sold. These start at the top and are counted from field position 1 to field position 91 or in the case below from 1 to 46, adding 1 stamp value for each row. At the top of the sheets are the row values, here each row is added to the next. At the bottom are simply the row numbers. Some or most sheets will have a cross or two on the margin. The crosses were used to center the paper on the plate. Most sheets will have small holes in the margins, these are not damages. They come from small nails and tacks that were used to fasten the paper to the plates. Again used stamps with crosses are rare and very desirable for the specialist.

Image Not Found

I´ll get to the plate numbers next time. My wife is nagging. I love her when she does.












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smauggie

05 Apr 2017
07:50:19am

re: Confused on Translation

Thank you Opa for that well-written and and well documented response. I learned something new thanks to you.

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