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United States/Stamps : Got me a Jenny

 

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

21 May 2017
09:04:56pm
When I was 9 years old a neighbor kid told me his dad had two inverted Jenny sheets which of course much impressed me. I think he must have buried them and they were dug up lately because today I think got one of them. Looks good to me except for the weathered look and I hope the reperfed left, or is it right, side won't affect the value much.

Image Not Found

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dani20
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21 May 2017
09:32:13pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Looks like 3 sides are reperfed. Just saying!
Dan C.

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Jansimon
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22 May 2017
07:33:30am

Auctions - Approvals
re: Got me a Jenny

I thought only one sheet existed?
Somehow I must have missed the joke, I think.

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sheepshanks
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22 May 2017
10:03:11am
re: Got me a Jenny

Unable to see a pencilled number on the back, is it the first of April again or am I being thick (as usual).

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musicman
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APS #213005

22 May 2017
10:04:57am
re: Got me a Jenny

I'm kinda lost on this one, as well....


....explanation, Antonio??

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StampCollector
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22 May 2017
01:37:46pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Yes, we had that discussion just few days back about writing on the back of the stamps, plus wasn't there just one sheet with this error?

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

22 May 2017
02:04:09pm
re: Got me a Jenny

I assumed that he understood it to be a fake. The 'weathered look' is a nice touch. Big Grin
Don

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michael78651
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22 May 2017
03:16:33pm
re: Got me a Jenny

It is a lithographed fake. The original is engraved. There is only one pane of 100 in existence. The whereabouts of one inverted Jenny stamp is currently unknown, and another is in a locket.

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StampCollector
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22 May 2017
06:03:01pm
re: Got me a Jenny

How can you tell by the scan that isn't engraved?

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

22 May 2017
07:18:38pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Yes, I certainly did not think it was legit but it looks like a very good fake. Other than the funky perfs at left, I cannot really see anything wrong with it but only assume it is fake because of the extreme unlikeliness that it could be real. If there is one missing stamp one can always hope to find it, I guess. Did not the missing stamp have a straight edge? I have never seen any convincing Jenny fakes before but one would think they'd be all over the place. I know a dealer in Kansas city that made very convincing inverts. You'd give him a mint original stamp and for $25 he would shave off the center and realign it 180 degrees producing a very convincing fake but this does not appear to be one of those. I don't know how Michael can tell it is lithographed instead of engraved either, perhaps he can tell us how to tell. If there were one lithographed stamp there would probably be thousands of them but I have not seen one.
It seems I remember there was a block of four that did not receive the penciled numbers on the reverse. Of course their was that kid who told me his father had two unknown sheets of them. Big Grin
Whatever the case I have a good space filler until I get a real oneLaughing

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michael78651
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22 May 2017
07:23:25pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Lack of depth of color and sharpness of the image. Lack of detail, such as the number on the fuselage. Check it against the image of my C3 below. Sorry about the heavy cancel, but the difference is still apparent. Getting an unused (maybe even mnh) C3 is on my want list. Still the centering on my stamp is wonderful.

Image Not Found

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

22 May 2017
09:02:06pm

Approvals
re: Got me a Jenny

The thought of finding a Jenny reminds me of an old story... Mr Hentzel lived next door to my grandparents all the time my father was growing up. At the time my family got back to the US in 1972, he was long gone and his daughter and aging wife still lived in the home.

My father told me that Mr Hentzel was a stamp collector. He was an architect so he had money and my father was sure that his stamp collection was spectacular. He had theories that his collection would have full sheets of Zeppelins, and other great treasures! I was 14 at the time and bought into the dream. I lived to be offered his collection at some future date.

The daughter Helen was cleaning out the downstairs and gave me a couple of boxes of 1950 era Popular Science Magazines which I still have. With this there was a cigar box full of used US stamps off paper. The box was mainly 1930s to 1960s, mainly definitives up to the high values and a lot of precancels, as if these were all soaked off packages. I was happy to get the box at 14 as it added stamps to my little collection.

My father had told me it would be impolite to directly ask about the stamp collection so every time we were with the Hentzels I sat just wishing that Helen would mention them. I'd even weave into the conversation that I was a stamp collector to no reaction.

By the time I was 16 I was a bit bolder and had enough of this excruciating waiting. The mother had died at this point and Helen was talking about selling the house. So I got up all my courage and asked what she was going to do with her father's stamp collection. She replied that she had already given it to me! That's right, the entire fabled collection was that cigar box!

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

22 May 2017
10:20:43pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Michael, You could very well be right but comparing the very poor scan of my stamp to what appears to be a 1200dpi scan of your stamp isn't exactly convincing. Even though the scan is bad it certainly appears it is printed on stamp paper. Why would anyone take the time and trouble to make a lithographed stamp and not make lots of them. Also why would a forger perf 3 sides leaving a straight edge to be perfed poorly later. I think their is mystery in this stamp! First thing I'll do is rub my finger across it then take a very good look at it.
Has any one else here ever seen a very good Jenny forgery assuming you have a good eye for such things?

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michael78651
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22 May 2017
10:35:04pm
AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

22 May 2017
11:18:34pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Michael, At first I thought that block might be the same as mine but there are two things that reversed that thought. First off those are perf 10 while mine is perf 11. The other is that my plane is faster. I would think that his stamps were printed in one step. If so all of Winters stamps would show the plane in the same position in relation to the frame.
Notice that the lower wing on my stamp touches the frame while his show the plane positioned farther back. No doubt the original sheet showed the plane in slightly different positions
as is to be expected.
Seeing that it sold for $675 makes me feel much less stupid for paying what I did for mine.

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michael78651
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22 May 2017
11:57:11pm
re: Got me a Jenny

then how about this one?

Image Not Found

In any event, the bottom line is that there are plenty of fakes out there of this stamp, including the one you have.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

23 May 2017
12:18:08am
re: Got me a Jenny

That looks pretty nifty, I'd like to see one. The date on that add is 2012 making me wonder if they still have some. In a certain mood I' might be tempted. I thought there were straight edges but that sheet doesn't have any, am I mistaken?

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michael78651
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23 May 2017
12:39:00am
re: Got me a Jenny

From the picture it looks like they are all perfed. I don't see any of those sheets being offered on the Mystic site. For $100, I'd rather buy real stamps.

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khj
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23 May 2017
01:13:17am
re: Got me a Jenny

I didn't post when this thread first appeared because I didn't expect it to be taken so seriously. Like Don, I assumed everybody would assume it was a fake, so I didn't bother replying. The only question, then, is -- which fake? Now, since there seems to be some interest in the fakes...

It's hard to say with 100% certainty without a much better picture, but your inverted Jenny should be a known forgery of a used inverted Jenny. Someone (maybe more than one person) started putting fake cancels on some of the better fake inverted Jenny's sometime between the 1980's and the 2000's. It wasn't just on Winter's forgeries. The cancel has been washed out, but it is probably one of the "DENVER COLO.//May 29" fake cancels. I think I can see some of the cancel arc and what appears to be washed out lettering ("R COLO.") along the the top left corner and top of your stamp, as well as the "9" from the "MAY 29" fake cancel just beneath the faded "CO". I noticed the faded cancel before I compared to the known fake cancel, and the positioning of the letters/numbers does seem to match one of the 2 variations of the fake Denver cancels that I am aware of. Also, your specific fake cancel is known to exist on the "fast plane" forgery. But again, can't tell for certain with the current picture -- who knows how much incorrect image processing is done by the eye and the imagination?!?

Regarding fakes -- there are PLENTY of them, many of which were produced in full sheets, meaning there are literally tens of thousands of fakes (some of which are good enough to fool even intermediate collectors).

A couple of notes regarding some things posted above:

-- ALL the stamps had the position number penciled on the back before the pane was broken up. Obviously, any stamp that no longer has original gum or was used (one known used), will have the number missing

-- The missing stamp is position 49, so it does not have a straight edge.

-- Several of the genuine inverted Jenny's have been re-perforated or re-gummed. I think most of us would be more than happy to just own a genuine one, and alterations or restorations would be the least of our concerns.

-- Only one pane was found. Postal inspectors did not find any others.

-- Peter Winter forgeries were perf 11. The fast plane forgery that I mentioned is also perf 11.

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khj
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23 May 2017
01:15:15am
re: Got me a Jenny

Don't know if Michael##### remembers, but we actually had a discussion on these used fakes on a board long gone... Sad

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khj
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23 May 2017
01:17:44am
re: Got me a Jenny

"The date on that add is 2012 making me wonder if they still have some."



Yes, they are still being sold on their website. Do they still have it in stock? Don't know.

I'm going to assume it's a violation of some rule to post the link, but it is still at their website for $99.95. Just go to their homepage and search for "C3aRepro".

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khj
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23 May 2017
01:25:16am
re: Got me a Jenny

"I thought there were straight edges but that sheet doesn't have any, am I mistaken?"



The original press sheet of 100 stamps had selvedge all around. (Yeah, we selvedge collectors do have a purpose in philately).

To make it fit in the post office drawers, the sheet was trimmed at top and right, so there are 19 stamps and 2 selvedge with straight edges.

The Mystic reproduction should be an accurate layout reproduction of the untrimmed press sheet.
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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

23 May 2017
02:05:54am
re: Got me a Jenny

KHJ, Thanks for all the great info.

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Bobstamp
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23 May 2017
02:09:29am
re: Got me a Jenny

This discussion reminds me of an incident several years ago, which I probably recall because it happened close to home, in Williams Lake, British Columbia, a couple of hours south of Prince George, where I was living at the time. A "gentleman" from Williams Lake posted an Inverted Jenny on eBay and got people all excited, to the extent (as I recall) that a collector was actually planning on flying to Williams Lake to take a look at the stamp. But then it was revealed that the seller had posted nothing more than a scan of a stamp catalogue listing. The RCMP got involved, but I don't know if any charges were ever laid.

It seems to be way too easy to fool collectors. I was fooled by a dealer when he showed me a Canadian Seaway Invert he had obtained. Then he put the stamp into a watermark tray, dropped some watermark fluid drops on it, and it became clearly evident that the "invert" was made simply by carefully cutting the centre out of the stamp, turning it upside down, and "repairing" it.

Bob

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

23 May 2017
05:33:58am
re: Got me a Jenny

"...It seems to be way too easy to fool collectors...."



Bob,
Good point, I think this is one of the reasons why we have always had a significant amount of fraud in our hobby (currently transitioned to mostly online fraud).

Many of us enjoy ‘treasure hunting’, looking for that rare and elusive stamp. If we can hold our emotions in check and not let it affect our judgement, there is nothing wrong with this. But unfortunately normally good philatelists will sometimes slip up and allow their emotions to enter their buying decisions. There are also some folks who enter the hobby thinking that ‘treasure hunting’ is the only aspect of stamp collecting that matters. They believe that every rare stamp in the world has landed in their hands and are very susceptible to foolhardy buying decisions. With the evolution of our hobby to online, ‘treasure hunting’ has taken on even more prominence. This is because ‘condition’ is so critical in the material we buy; what looks like a bargain is often a stamp or cover with condition issues.

Our egos make it very easy to think that we know more than the next person, that our experience gives us an advantage in the marketplace. This is exactly what fraudulent sellers hope for and seek out. There is one infamous (and very large) stamp dealer who sells on eBay with the disclaimer “Some stamps could be expertly restored, regum, or repaired.” Yet folks still support them. They are clearly stating they selling substandard material yet people still flock to their listings.

Many respected collectors are willing to support bad dealers since they feel they can pick out the best buys from all the trash being offered for sale. This kind of fraudulent online selling practices have become known as ‘trolling for suckers’ but is often justified as ‘buyer beware’.

If we look at this as a single person losing money we can write it off as part of the learning experience. But if we consider the issue across the entire hobby it becomes more disturbing; far too often people become disillusioned with our hobby after being taken.

The obvious solution to this is education and communication. Education and experience gives us the best chance to make good buying decisions. Communication is also very important and is something that philately has not historically excelled at. As collectors we tend to hold our cards close to our chests; we consider our knowledge as giving us an advantage in the marketplace. Additionally by restricting access to stamp information over the decades, the cost of becoming knowledgeable is significant for our hobby. Buying reference materials and building reference collections is not for someone who has a limited budget.

This extends beyond just stamp knowledge; we even protect who we feel are the best sellers to avoid additional competition from other buyers. This makes being a good seller harder since ‘word of mouth’ recommendations often do not get communicated. It is also common for collectors to not communicate negative buying experiences; we do not want to share our bad buying judgments for fear of looking foolish.

I think all of the above makes it ‘easy to fool collectors’. Before spending significant amounts of money we should understand not just what we are buying but also who we are buying from. There are plenty of really great sellers and dealers; we should be willing to share their names with other collectors. We should also be willing to share our knowledge and experience; this is the perfect way to give back to the hobby we love. We should be cautious when sharing stories about the ‘treasures’ we have found; making sure we note how rarely this actually happens. We should also be emphasizing the intrinsic joys of stamp collecting beyond the value of a collection.
Don

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michael78651
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23 May 2017
08:37:43am
re: Got me a Jenny

"Don't know if Michael##### remembers, but we actually had a discussion on these used fakes on a board long gone..."



I don't remember that, but I don't doubt it. We discussed alot of stuff on SW.

I searched for the repros on Mystic. I used the catalog number and I used the name. Nothing came up, except the $2 USPS re-issued stamp and sheet.


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khj
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23 May 2017
10:47:51am
re: Got me a Jenny

Not sure why your search didn't turn up the inverted Jenny reproduction page. I used the search at the top right corner of the Mystic home page and put in "C3aRepro".

At any rate, below is the link, which I was originally hesitant to post. Mods can feel free to remove it if it violates any SoR rules.

Mystic 1918 Jenny Invert C3a Reproduction Sheet

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Benque

23 May 2017
11:35:40am
re: Got me a Jenny

If I were including a "disagreeable" relative in my last will, I would be sure to include a 1/4 sheet of the mystic repro Jennys, along with a few "decoy" stamps, just so I could have a little chuckle after my passing.

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khj
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23 May 2017
11:46:39am
re: Got me a Jenny

I wouldn't mind being a victim of such a practical joke and getting a free 1/4 sheet of the reproductions!

The Mystic reproductions, however, can be easily recognized as reproductions because they are on modern paper and have the appearance of a modern printed stamp.

That being said, it is a lot easier to spot reproductions if you have handled the originals before. In the case of the inverted Jenny, comparing it to a genuine upright Jenny as Michael##### did is a basic and trustworthy first step.

I've seen more than a few mint PRC Cultural Revolution stamps being sold on eBay that are nothing more than the reproductions produced in the 1980s for the tourist trade and souvenir/presentation collections. The designs and color are actually quite accurate, but the paper is wrong and the perforations have the wrong "appearance". Again, you're more likely to notice it if you've handled the genuine stamps. Remember all those fake PRC Year of the Monkey stamps? If you've handled a real one, you can easily spot the many fakes that were produced afterwards (some of the fakes were actually pretty good).

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

23 May 2017
07:26:00pm
re: Got me a Jenny

I hope no one seriously thinks I thought the stamp to be anything other than a fake. I just thought it would be fun to discuss why it could not be real and perhaps figure out what it might be. Of course figuring exactly what fake it is will not be possible until I have the stamp in my hands and can better examine it.
As far as finding treasures in mixed lots it use to be much easier on Ebay than it is today. I have found quite a few semi treasure stamps in lots of a few hundred mixed stamps slightly hidden and poorly scanned. I cannot remember ever buying anything that I regretted later. I feel I have an advantage in that I collect most everything and have more classic stamps than most anyone so that I know the approximate values of stamps I"m looking at. I not only search for items I need but high value stamps that could be easily overlooked. If I am unfamiliar with an area or the stamps in question have overprints, I do not bid very much if at all. One lot that comes to mind had a few hundred stamps and besides several other stamps valued in the hundreds was an unused (no gum) U.S. #118. I paid around $150 for the lot and later sold the #118 by itself on Ebay for $850. That dealer is still selling on Ebay and still makes many of the same mistakes including poor scans of lots with valuable stamps hidden partially behind cheap stamps. Right now I am waiting to receive a lot from the same guy that I am confident has several stamps that are together valued around $6-7,000 but that I paid only $80 for.

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dani20
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23 May 2017
07:42:19pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Clearly you know what you're doing.
Respect,
Dan C.

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khj
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23 May 2017
08:04:42pm
re: Got me a Jenny

I've re-examined the pic in the original post. Now I'm pretty certain it's a Peter Winter forgery.

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

24 May 2017
08:53:42am

Auctions
re: Got me a Jenny

for the record, when one knows a significant amount about a stamp, it would be useful if the original poster will include reference to that so that those of us who are trying to be useful, and who don't know as much, don't waste our time trying to discover what the original poster already knows.

these "just kidding" posts from knowledgeable collectors would do better if they were posted, instead, as "bought a fake Jenny; who can tell me the source" or some such thing, so we're all starting with the same information and, as I said, the less well informed among us, like me, aren't searching for that which is already known.

I see others were barking up the wrong tree as well, and neither of them is near as stupid as me.

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sheepshanks
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24 May 2017
10:30:38am
re: Got me a Jenny

"neither of them is near as stupid as me"


I reckon I'm more stupid than you think I am, I think, therefore I am. or something like that.
Quite agree though that time should not be wasted on chasing wild geese.

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michael78651
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24 May 2017
10:51:18am
re: Got me a Jenny

A Winter forgery was my first assumption as well (see my link above on my first reply).

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

24 May 2017
11:00:43am

Auctions
re: Got me a Jenny

"that time should not be wasted on chasing wild geese"



even if the geese are upside down

"A Winter forgery was my first assumption "



a Winter forgery in the summer of my discontent
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tooler
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03 Mar 2018
06:26:28pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Got me a Jenny too. LOL

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Winedrinker
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03 Mar 2018
08:13:27pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Image Not Found

Finally found an inverted Jenny for a reasonable price on eBay. My expertizer (my wife Penny), assures me it is inverted.
As am I.

Cheers!
Wine

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Bobstamp
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04 Mar 2018
07:45:32pm
re: Got me a Jenny

This one is even rarer. Er, more rare? It's a re-invert:

Image Not Found

boB

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

04 Mar 2018
07:55:42pm
re: Got me a Jenny

I think I have the rarest of all

Image Not Found

Big Grin

Don

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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
08:01:56pm
re: Got me a Jenny

That's funny, Bob!
And, very creative, 51Stude!

Here's my entry of an inverted Jenny:

Image Not Found

I picked this one up a couple of years ago, as a poor, neglected street waif of the genre, Scotch Tape stained and all. But look, it's from the very first commercial airmail trip in the United States, May 15, 1918! And, it has the original enclosure, which is a stock tract from the Aerial League, promoting the concept of air mail. I was really, really excited to add this one to my collection!

I'd love to figure out how to remove the Scotch Tape stains, but they're so embedded after 100 years, that I'm not very optimistic.

-Paul


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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
08:08:15pm
re: Got me a Jenny

Gotta post this image, too, which I captured.

It's a real Curtiss Jenny, which flies out of a grass strip about 15 miles from where I live. I have never seen it inverted, but it is absolute pleasure to see it droning across the sky, nonetheless...

Image Not Found

-Paul

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

04 Mar 2018
08:18:52pm
re: Got me a Jenny

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I have this little cover mounted in my collection; it like it because it is only 4". This FAM is notable because it is also the EKU (Earliest Known Use) of a U509. Pretty unique cover.

Don

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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
08:50:53pm
re: Got me a Jenny

VERY nice, Don!

Keep 'em coming!

-Paul

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

04 Mar 2018
08:57:37pm

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re: Got me a Jenny

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Since we are all sharing... here's the page in my album of the first three airmail stamps. Remember, in my collection it doesn't matter if a stamp is mint or used, a single, block or cover. It represents that Scott number just the same!

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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
09:49:53pm
re: Got me a Jenny

So Don, the POD printed these smaller envelopes?

Must have been a MUCH smaller production run than the #10s, for example.

The 4-inch width doesn't seem to be a 'standard' size.
Or is this one cut-down? Either way, it's a gem!

Very nice item!
Thanks for sharing,
-Paul


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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

05 Mar 2018
02:29:14am
re: Got me a Jenny

E.C. Titus is a well-known collector/dealer who made many philatelic covers in his time. It is not the PO standard size; I assume he modified this one by unfolding the envelope, cutting it down, and then carefully refolding it back the same way.
Don

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tooler
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05 Mar 2018
11:07:41am
re: Got me a Jenny

What do you think about this one, "GOLD" Laughing

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sleepy

08 Mar 2018
01:08:45pm
re: Got me a Jenny

There are serious collectors of good fakes. What constitutes a "good" fake is in contention, but there are those who will pay for them.

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Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

30 Apr 2019
12:15:58pm
re: Got me a Jenny

It's great to dig around in old stamps and think "WHAT IF?". Imagine how the person felt who found the third known copy of Canada # 32!

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Ziggy
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26 Nov 2020
03:56:57pm
re: Got me a Jenny

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
21 May 2017
09:04:56pm

When I was 9 years old a neighbor kid told me his dad had two inverted Jenny sheets which of course much impressed me. I think he must have buried them and they were dug up lately because today I think got one of them. Looks good to me except for the weathered look and I hope the reperfed left, or is it right, side won't affect the value much.

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dani20

21 May 2017
09:32:13pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Looks like 3 sides are reperfed. Just saying!
Dan C.

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Jansimon

22 May 2017
07:33:30am

Auctions - Approvals

re: Got me a Jenny

I thought only one sheet existed?
Somehow I must have missed the joke, I think.

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sheepshanks

22 May 2017
10:03:11am

re: Got me a Jenny

Unable to see a pencilled number on the back, is it the first of April again or am I being thick (as usual).

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musicman

APS #213005
22 May 2017
10:04:57am

re: Got me a Jenny

I'm kinda lost on this one, as well....


....explanation, Antonio??

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StampCollector

22 May 2017
01:37:46pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Yes, we had that discussion just few days back about writing on the back of the stamps, plus wasn't there just one sheet with this error?

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
22 May 2017
02:04:09pm

re: Got me a Jenny

I assumed that he understood it to be a fake. The 'weathered look' is a nice touch. Big Grin
Don

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michael78651

22 May 2017
03:16:33pm

re: Got me a Jenny

It is a lithographed fake. The original is engraved. There is only one pane of 100 in existence. The whereabouts of one inverted Jenny stamp is currently unknown, and another is in a locket.

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StampCollector

22 May 2017
06:03:01pm

re: Got me a Jenny

How can you tell by the scan that isn't engraved?

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
22 May 2017
07:18:38pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Yes, I certainly did not think it was legit but it looks like a very good fake. Other than the funky perfs at left, I cannot really see anything wrong with it but only assume it is fake because of the extreme unlikeliness that it could be real. If there is one missing stamp one can always hope to find it, I guess. Did not the missing stamp have a straight edge? I have never seen any convincing Jenny fakes before but one would think they'd be all over the place. I know a dealer in Kansas city that made very convincing inverts. You'd give him a mint original stamp and for $25 he would shave off the center and realign it 180 degrees producing a very convincing fake but this does not appear to be one of those. I don't know how Michael can tell it is lithographed instead of engraved either, perhaps he can tell us how to tell. If there were one lithographed stamp there would probably be thousands of them but I have not seen one.
It seems I remember there was a block of four that did not receive the penciled numbers on the reverse. Of course their was that kid who told me his father had two unknown sheets of them. Big Grin
Whatever the case I have a good space filler until I get a real oneLaughing

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michael78651

22 May 2017
07:23:25pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Lack of depth of color and sharpness of the image. Lack of detail, such as the number on the fuselage. Check it against the image of my C3 below. Sorry about the heavy cancel, but the difference is still apparent. Getting an unused (maybe even mnh) C3 is on my want list. Still the centering on my stamp is wonderful.

Image Not Found

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
22 May 2017
09:02:06pm

Approvals

re: Got me a Jenny

The thought of finding a Jenny reminds me of an old story... Mr Hentzel lived next door to my grandparents all the time my father was growing up. At the time my family got back to the US in 1972, he was long gone and his daughter and aging wife still lived in the home.

My father told me that Mr Hentzel was a stamp collector. He was an architect so he had money and my father was sure that his stamp collection was spectacular. He had theories that his collection would have full sheets of Zeppelins, and other great treasures! I was 14 at the time and bought into the dream. I lived to be offered his collection at some future date.

The daughter Helen was cleaning out the downstairs and gave me a couple of boxes of 1950 era Popular Science Magazines which I still have. With this there was a cigar box full of used US stamps off paper. The box was mainly 1930s to 1960s, mainly definitives up to the high values and a lot of precancels, as if these were all soaked off packages. I was happy to get the box at 14 as it added stamps to my little collection.

My father had told me it would be impolite to directly ask about the stamp collection so every time we were with the Hentzels I sat just wishing that Helen would mention them. I'd even weave into the conversation that I was a stamp collector to no reaction.

By the time I was 16 I was a bit bolder and had enough of this excruciating waiting. The mother had died at this point and Helen was talking about selling the house. So I got up all my courage and asked what she was going to do with her father's stamp collection. She replied that she had already given it to me! That's right, the entire fabled collection was that cigar box!

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
22 May 2017
10:20:43pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Michael, You could very well be right but comparing the very poor scan of my stamp to what appears to be a 1200dpi scan of your stamp isn't exactly convincing. Even though the scan is bad it certainly appears it is printed on stamp paper. Why would anyone take the time and trouble to make a lithographed stamp and not make lots of them. Also why would a forger perf 3 sides leaving a straight edge to be perfed poorly later. I think their is mystery in this stamp! First thing I'll do is rub my finger across it then take a very good look at it.
Has any one else here ever seen a very good Jenny forgery assuming you have a good eye for such things?

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michael78651

22 May 2017
10:35:04pm

re: Got me a Jenny

I think this is the item that you have:

http://www.regencystamps.com/USA__C3a__1985_INVERTED_JENNY_ERROR_BLOCK__PETER_W-LOT344465.aspx

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
22 May 2017
11:18:34pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Michael, At first I thought that block might be the same as mine but there are two things that reversed that thought. First off those are perf 10 while mine is perf 11. The other is that my plane is faster. I would think that his stamps were printed in one step. If so all of Winters stamps would show the plane in the same position in relation to the frame.
Notice that the lower wing on my stamp touches the frame while his show the plane positioned farther back. No doubt the original sheet showed the plane in slightly different positions
as is to be expected.
Seeing that it sold for $675 makes me feel much less stupid for paying what I did for mine.

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michael78651

22 May 2017
11:57:11pm

re: Got me a Jenny

then how about this one?

Image Not Found

In any event, the bottom line is that there are plenty of fakes out there of this stamp, including the one you have.

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
23 May 2017
12:18:08am

re: Got me a Jenny

That looks pretty nifty, I'd like to see one. The date on that add is 2012 making me wonder if they still have some. In a certain mood I' might be tempted. I thought there were straight edges but that sheet doesn't have any, am I mistaken?

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michael78651

23 May 2017
12:39:00am

re: Got me a Jenny

From the picture it looks like they are all perfed. I don't see any of those sheets being offered on the Mystic site. For $100, I'd rather buy real stamps.

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khj

23 May 2017
01:13:17am

re: Got me a Jenny

I didn't post when this thread first appeared because I didn't expect it to be taken so seriously. Like Don, I assumed everybody would assume it was a fake, so I didn't bother replying. The only question, then, is -- which fake? Now, since there seems to be some interest in the fakes...

It's hard to say with 100% certainty without a much better picture, but your inverted Jenny should be a known forgery of a used inverted Jenny. Someone (maybe more than one person) started putting fake cancels on some of the better fake inverted Jenny's sometime between the 1980's and the 2000's. It wasn't just on Winter's forgeries. The cancel has been washed out, but it is probably one of the "DENVER COLO.//May 29" fake cancels. I think I can see some of the cancel arc and what appears to be washed out lettering ("R COLO.") along the the top left corner and top of your stamp, as well as the "9" from the "MAY 29" fake cancel just beneath the faded "CO". I noticed the faded cancel before I compared to the known fake cancel, and the positioning of the letters/numbers does seem to match one of the 2 variations of the fake Denver cancels that I am aware of. Also, your specific fake cancel is known to exist on the "fast plane" forgery. But again, can't tell for certain with the current picture -- who knows how much incorrect image processing is done by the eye and the imagination?!?

Regarding fakes -- there are PLENTY of them, many of which were produced in full sheets, meaning there are literally tens of thousands of fakes (some of which are good enough to fool even intermediate collectors).

A couple of notes regarding some things posted above:

-- ALL the stamps had the position number penciled on the back before the pane was broken up. Obviously, any stamp that no longer has original gum or was used (one known used), will have the number missing

-- The missing stamp is position 49, so it does not have a straight edge.

-- Several of the genuine inverted Jenny's have been re-perforated or re-gummed. I think most of us would be more than happy to just own a genuine one, and alterations or restorations would be the least of our concerns.

-- Only one pane was found. Postal inspectors did not find any others.

-- Peter Winter forgeries were perf 11. The fast plane forgery that I mentioned is also perf 11.

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khj

23 May 2017
01:15:15am

re: Got me a Jenny

Don't know if Michael##### remembers, but we actually had a discussion on these used fakes on a board long gone... Sad

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khj

23 May 2017
01:17:44am

re: Got me a Jenny

"The date on that add is 2012 making me wonder if they still have some."



Yes, they are still being sold on their website. Do they still have it in stock? Don't know.

I'm going to assume it's a violation of some rule to post the link, but it is still at their website for $99.95. Just go to their homepage and search for "C3aRepro".

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khj

23 May 2017
01:25:16am

re: Got me a Jenny

"I thought there were straight edges but that sheet doesn't have any, am I mistaken?"



The original press sheet of 100 stamps had selvedge all around. (Yeah, we selvedge collectors do have a purpose in philately).

To make it fit in the post office drawers, the sheet was trimmed at top and right, so there are 19 stamps and 2 selvedge with straight edges.

The Mystic reproduction should be an accurate layout reproduction of the untrimmed press sheet.
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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
23 May 2017
02:05:54am

re: Got me a Jenny

KHJ, Thanks for all the great info.

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Bobstamp

23 May 2017
02:09:29am

re: Got me a Jenny

This discussion reminds me of an incident several years ago, which I probably recall because it happened close to home, in Williams Lake, British Columbia, a couple of hours south of Prince George, where I was living at the time. A "gentleman" from Williams Lake posted an Inverted Jenny on eBay and got people all excited, to the extent (as I recall) that a collector was actually planning on flying to Williams Lake to take a look at the stamp. But then it was revealed that the seller had posted nothing more than a scan of a stamp catalogue listing. The RCMP got involved, but I don't know if any charges were ever laid.

It seems to be way too easy to fool collectors. I was fooled by a dealer when he showed me a Canadian Seaway Invert he had obtained. Then he put the stamp into a watermark tray, dropped some watermark fluid drops on it, and it became clearly evident that the "invert" was made simply by carefully cutting the centre out of the stamp, turning it upside down, and "repairing" it.

Bob

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
23 May 2017
05:33:58am

re: Got me a Jenny

"...It seems to be way too easy to fool collectors...."



Bob,
Good point, I think this is one of the reasons why we have always had a significant amount of fraud in our hobby (currently transitioned to mostly online fraud).

Many of us enjoy ‘treasure hunting’, looking for that rare and elusive stamp. If we can hold our emotions in check and not let it affect our judgement, there is nothing wrong with this. But unfortunately normally good philatelists will sometimes slip up and allow their emotions to enter their buying decisions. There are also some folks who enter the hobby thinking that ‘treasure hunting’ is the only aspect of stamp collecting that matters. They believe that every rare stamp in the world has landed in their hands and are very susceptible to foolhardy buying decisions. With the evolution of our hobby to online, ‘treasure hunting’ has taken on even more prominence. This is because ‘condition’ is so critical in the material we buy; what looks like a bargain is often a stamp or cover with condition issues.

Our egos make it very easy to think that we know more than the next person, that our experience gives us an advantage in the marketplace. This is exactly what fraudulent sellers hope for and seek out. There is one infamous (and very large) stamp dealer who sells on eBay with the disclaimer “Some stamps could be expertly restored, regum, or repaired.” Yet folks still support them. They are clearly stating they selling substandard material yet people still flock to their listings.

Many respected collectors are willing to support bad dealers since they feel they can pick out the best buys from all the trash being offered for sale. This kind of fraudulent online selling practices have become known as ‘trolling for suckers’ but is often justified as ‘buyer beware’.

If we look at this as a single person losing money we can write it off as part of the learning experience. But if we consider the issue across the entire hobby it becomes more disturbing; far too often people become disillusioned with our hobby after being taken.

The obvious solution to this is education and communication. Education and experience gives us the best chance to make good buying decisions. Communication is also very important and is something that philately has not historically excelled at. As collectors we tend to hold our cards close to our chests; we consider our knowledge as giving us an advantage in the marketplace. Additionally by restricting access to stamp information over the decades, the cost of becoming knowledgeable is significant for our hobby. Buying reference materials and building reference collections is not for someone who has a limited budget.

This extends beyond just stamp knowledge; we even protect who we feel are the best sellers to avoid additional competition from other buyers. This makes being a good seller harder since ‘word of mouth’ recommendations often do not get communicated. It is also common for collectors to not communicate negative buying experiences; we do not want to share our bad buying judgments for fear of looking foolish.

I think all of the above makes it ‘easy to fool collectors’. Before spending significant amounts of money we should understand not just what we are buying but also who we are buying from. There are plenty of really great sellers and dealers; we should be willing to share their names with other collectors. We should also be willing to share our knowledge and experience; this is the perfect way to give back to the hobby we love. We should be cautious when sharing stories about the ‘treasures’ we have found; making sure we note how rarely this actually happens. We should also be emphasizing the intrinsic joys of stamp collecting beyond the value of a collection.
Don

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michael78651

23 May 2017
08:37:43am

re: Got me a Jenny

"Don't know if Michael##### remembers, but we actually had a discussion on these used fakes on a board long gone..."



I don't remember that, but I don't doubt it. We discussed alot of stuff on SW.

I searched for the repros on Mystic. I used the catalog number and I used the name. Nothing came up, except the $2 USPS re-issued stamp and sheet.


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khj

23 May 2017
10:47:51am

re: Got me a Jenny

Not sure why your search didn't turn up the inverted Jenny reproduction page. I used the search at the top right corner of the Mystic home page and put in "C3aRepro".

At any rate, below is the link, which I was originally hesitant to post. Mods can feel free to remove it if it violates any SoR rules.

Mystic 1918 Jenny Invert C3a Reproduction Sheet

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Benque

23 May 2017
11:35:40am

re: Got me a Jenny

If I were including a "disagreeable" relative in my last will, I would be sure to include a 1/4 sheet of the mystic repro Jennys, along with a few "decoy" stamps, just so I could have a little chuckle after my passing.

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khj

23 May 2017
11:46:39am

re: Got me a Jenny

I wouldn't mind being a victim of such a practical joke and getting a free 1/4 sheet of the reproductions!

The Mystic reproductions, however, can be easily recognized as reproductions because they are on modern paper and have the appearance of a modern printed stamp.

That being said, it is a lot easier to spot reproductions if you have handled the originals before. In the case of the inverted Jenny, comparing it to a genuine upright Jenny as Michael##### did is a basic and trustworthy first step.

I've seen more than a few mint PRC Cultural Revolution stamps being sold on eBay that are nothing more than the reproductions produced in the 1980s for the tourist trade and souvenir/presentation collections. The designs and color are actually quite accurate, but the paper is wrong and the perforations have the wrong "appearance". Again, you're more likely to notice it if you've handled the genuine stamps. Remember all those fake PRC Year of the Monkey stamps? If you've handled a real one, you can easily spot the many fakes that were produced afterwards (some of the fakes were actually pretty good).

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
23 May 2017
07:26:00pm

re: Got me a Jenny

I hope no one seriously thinks I thought the stamp to be anything other than a fake. I just thought it would be fun to discuss why it could not be real and perhaps figure out what it might be. Of course figuring exactly what fake it is will not be possible until I have the stamp in my hands and can better examine it.
As far as finding treasures in mixed lots it use to be much easier on Ebay than it is today. I have found quite a few semi treasure stamps in lots of a few hundred mixed stamps slightly hidden and poorly scanned. I cannot remember ever buying anything that I regretted later. I feel I have an advantage in that I collect most everything and have more classic stamps than most anyone so that I know the approximate values of stamps I"m looking at. I not only search for items I need but high value stamps that could be easily overlooked. If I am unfamiliar with an area or the stamps in question have overprints, I do not bid very much if at all. One lot that comes to mind had a few hundred stamps and besides several other stamps valued in the hundreds was an unused (no gum) U.S. #118. I paid around $150 for the lot and later sold the #118 by itself on Ebay for $850. That dealer is still selling on Ebay and still makes many of the same mistakes including poor scans of lots with valuable stamps hidden partially behind cheap stamps. Right now I am waiting to receive a lot from the same guy that I am confident has several stamps that are together valued around $6-7,000 but that I paid only $80 for.

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dani20

23 May 2017
07:42:19pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Clearly you know what you're doing.
Respect,
Dan C.

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khj

23 May 2017
08:04:42pm

re: Got me a Jenny

I've re-examined the pic in the original post. Now I'm pretty certain it's a Peter Winter forgery.

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
24 May 2017
08:53:42am

Auctions

re: Got me a Jenny

for the record, when one knows a significant amount about a stamp, it would be useful if the original poster will include reference to that so that those of us who are trying to be useful, and who don't know as much, don't waste our time trying to discover what the original poster already knows.

these "just kidding" posts from knowledgeable collectors would do better if they were posted, instead, as "bought a fake Jenny; who can tell me the source" or some such thing, so we're all starting with the same information and, as I said, the less well informed among us, like me, aren't searching for that which is already known.

I see others were barking up the wrong tree as well, and neither of them is near as stupid as me.

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sheepshanks

24 May 2017
10:30:38am

re: Got me a Jenny

"neither of them is near as stupid as me"


I reckon I'm more stupid than you think I am, I think, therefore I am. or something like that.
Quite agree though that time should not be wasted on chasing wild geese.

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michael78651

24 May 2017
10:51:18am

re: Got me a Jenny

A Winter forgery was my first assumption as well (see my link above on my first reply).

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
24 May 2017
11:00:43am

Auctions

re: Got me a Jenny

"that time should not be wasted on chasing wild geese"



even if the geese are upside down

"A Winter forgery was my first assumption "



a Winter forgery in the summer of my discontent
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tooler

03 Mar 2018
06:26:28pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Got me a Jenny too. LOL

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Winedrinker

03 Mar 2018
08:13:27pm

re: Got me a Jenny

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Finally found an inverted Jenny for a reasonable price on eBay. My expertizer (my wife Penny), assures me it is inverted.
As am I.

Cheers!
Wine

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Bobstamp

04 Mar 2018
07:45:32pm

re: Got me a Jenny

This one is even rarer. Er, more rare? It's a re-invert:

Image Not Found

boB

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
04 Mar 2018
07:55:42pm

re: Got me a Jenny

I think I have the rarest of all

Image Not Found

Big Grin

Don

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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
08:01:56pm

re: Got me a Jenny

That's funny, Bob!
And, very creative, 51Stude!

Here's my entry of an inverted Jenny:

Image Not Found

I picked this one up a couple of years ago, as a poor, neglected street waif of the genre, Scotch Tape stained and all. But look, it's from the very first commercial airmail trip in the United States, May 15, 1918! And, it has the original enclosure, which is a stock tract from the Aerial League, promoting the concept of air mail. I was really, really excited to add this one to my collection!

I'd love to figure out how to remove the Scotch Tape stains, but they're so embedded after 100 years, that I'm not very optimistic.

-Paul


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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
08:08:15pm

re: Got me a Jenny

Gotta post this image, too, which I captured.

It's a real Curtiss Jenny, which flies out of a grass strip about 15 miles from where I live. I have never seen it inverted, but it is absolute pleasure to see it droning across the sky, nonetheless...

Image Not Found

-Paul

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
04 Mar 2018
08:18:52pm

re: Got me a Jenny

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I have this little cover mounted in my collection; it like it because it is only 4". This FAM is notable because it is also the EKU (Earliest Known Use) of a U509. Pretty unique cover.

Don

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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
08:50:53pm

re: Got me a Jenny

VERY nice, Don!

Keep 'em coming!

-Paul

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
04 Mar 2018
08:57:37pm

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re: Got me a Jenny

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Since we are all sharing... here's the page in my album of the first three airmail stamps. Remember, in my collection it doesn't matter if a stamp is mint or used, a single, block or cover. It represents that Scott number just the same!

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pigdoc

04 Mar 2018
09:49:53pm

re: Got me a Jenny

So Don, the POD printed these smaller envelopes?

Must have been a MUCH smaller production run than the #10s, for example.

The 4-inch width doesn't seem to be a 'standard' size.
Or is this one cut-down? Either way, it's a gem!

Very nice item!
Thanks for sharing,
-Paul


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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
05 Mar 2018
02:29:14am

re: Got me a Jenny

E.C. Titus is a well-known collector/dealer who made many philatelic covers in his time. It is not the PO standard size; I assume he modified this one by unfolding the envelope, cutting it down, and then carefully refolding it back the same way.
Don

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tooler

05 Mar 2018
11:07:41am

re: Got me a Jenny

What do you think about this one, "GOLD" Laughing

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sleepy

08 Mar 2018
01:08:45pm

re: Got me a Jenny

There are serious collectors of good fakes. What constitutes a "good" fake is in contention, but there are those who will pay for them.

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Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

30 Apr 2019
12:15:58pm

re: Got me a Jenny

It's great to dig around in old stamps and think "WHAT IF?". Imagine how the person felt who found the third known copy of Canada # 32!

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Ziggy

26 Nov 2020
03:56:57pm

re: Got me a Jenny

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