Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
10:21:45am
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=9395#64605
However, this discussion quickly morphed into a discussion of the merits of a "minimum valuation" in the catalogues.
I would like to avoid such a morphing this time.
I frequently have to tell people who have a collection for sale (usually inherited or "found"):
"I am afraid that age is no indicator of the value of a stamp collection. A collector can accumulate tens of thousands of different stamps, from all over the world, all more than 100 years old, and never spend more than a few cents a stamp."
I would be interested to know if anyone has any statistics that would support this statement. As basic parameters, I would say that "a few cents a stamp" would allow a price up to 10c per stamp, and that catalogue values for such stamps would include stamps up to about $1.00 catalogue value (even though in practice, higher values can be found for less than 10c). Further limiting the question to 19th century gives a clearer dividing line than "100 years old", even though the next 17 years would include an awful lot of 10c stamps!
I routinely take large cartons (18x12x12 inches) of albums to my local stamp clubs and offer everything at 10c a stamp, "take your pick". I have never tracked how many people just go for the "old stuff".
Roy
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Great question Roy. I have a clarifying question which will determine the degree of magnitude you are going for.
Are you talking about all the different stamps by catalog number or by amount printed?
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I don't have an answer, but there are a large number of stamps from the 19th Century that sell for ten cents or less.
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Just to get some data started:
For Netherlands: 24/94
Netherlands Antilles 6/43
Netherlands Indies 19/55
(The above is the number of stamps cataloguing $1.00 or less/total number of issues.
The data is from Scott 2013, and defines the 19th century as up to and including 1900. Postage due stamps are included.)
Jan
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04:22:29pm
smauggie: The number of different collectible stamps as presented in the catalogues, not by production.
In other words, "How big a collection could one reasonably expect to build by collecting only 19th century stamps and limiting spending to no more than 10c per stamp?".
Roy
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04:31:38pm
For the US, I make it:
13 / 293
although I think the numerator could be double that, given that a lot of the $2-$3 items are well over-catalogued relative to their availability.
Roy
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Ok, it took me a while because I have been covered up today with other work.
But using a database of 2016 Scott catalog values and a quick custom query, I came up with the following.
Less than $1.00 --- 16,947 stamps
Less than .50 --- 15,039 stamps
Less than .25 --- 10,618 stamps
Less than .10 --- 8,124 stamps
This is for used, world wide stamps.
Don
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Roy, my best guess would be a few thousand. You could get more buying collections as the per stamp price would be less.
I flipped through the Scott Classic for 19th Century listings. Countries where you'd find the most minimal valued stamps are Latin America as a whole, Austria, some British Caribbean, British Guiana, Eastern Europe, Finland, India, Labuan, Liberia, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Mozambique, Mozambique Company, Netherlands, North Borneo, Philippines, Portugal, Portuguese Colonies, Puerto Rico, Russia, Serbia,
Other countries like Iran and Japan will garner several stamps as well. Most Dutch, French, German, and Italian colonies, forget it.
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51Studebaker, out of curiosity, how many 19th century stamps are there in the 2016 Scott?
Roy, before 51Studebaker's statistics, I was planning to give the anecdotal evidence that when I was actively buying Scott International Volume One (1840-1940) albums, I would estimate 2-8 cents per stamp depending upon the estimated size of the collection. So a small album of 2-3K stamps might bring $50-$60. A larger collection of 10,000 plus different might bring $600+. So, if you were lucky, you could get 15K 1840-1940 stamps for under 10 cents a stamp, even though these were rarely offered on eBay, at least.
Totally irrelevant, the recently sold Beville worldwide 1840-1940 collection of 86K stamps (including varieties) sold for $1,622,050 or almost $19 per stamp. So that gives some feel from both sides of the spectrum.
Bob
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There were 28,455 1900 and earlier stamps. Note: this is from a commercial database and does not count stamps with null values.
Don
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"Less than $1.00 --- 16,947 stamps"
"There were 28,455 1900 and earlier stamps"
Don- could you clarify?
What exactly is the $1 or less purchase price?
(Certainly not the CV I wouldn't think.)
So, does that mean that 55.6% of all 19th century stamps can reasonably be purchased for $1 or less?
The percentage seems high to me in my experience.
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These are catalog values. I questioned the 56% too but I think that the number of nulls skewed the data. In fact there were so many nulls I had to use the query to filter them out before I copied the data to a spreadsheet (the query return more stamps than Excel would allow to be pasted into it.)
I assume that the nulls were mostly high value stamps. These commercial databases (i.e. Stampmanage, EZ Stamp) are not exact replicas of a Scott catalog.
Don
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02:03:33am
" ... There were 28,455 1900 and earlier stamps. Note: this is from a commercial database and does not count stamps with null values. ..."
The null values, what ever that includes would have to be counted since they could easily be bought for less than $0.10.
If I understand Roy's parameters, we are looking for the total number of stamps stamps, issued between 1840 and 1900, that have a catalog listing of $1.00, based on the knowledge that such stamps would seldom, on their own, actually be bought and sold for more than $0.10 each.
Is that accurate ?
This is a mighty challenge and will probably require someone actually sitting down with a recent set of Scott's and tabulating the issues.
Trying to use other people's numbers will bring too many variables into the project. But if done rigorously will be an interesting number to remember when we discuss the value of collections and accumulations.
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Was just trying to offer a bit more insight. Sorry I wasted everyone's time including my own. Won't happen again.
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Don,
not wasted at all; far more comprehensive than anything i've seen before and quite in line with Roy's request.
thanks for doing it.
David
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09:48:31am
"not wasted at all; far more comprehensive than anything i've seen before and quite in line with Roy's request.
thanks for doing it."
Ditto.
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Don, your information surprised me. I didn't think there were that many. I found it to be interesting, and it reinforces my constant comments to those who think that just because they have an old stamp that it is more than likely not worth very much.
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The answer probably is "More than anyone could think possible"
It will depend on how much knowledge a seller has about what he sells. How much time he is willing to invest in identifying his / her stamps - watermarks, paper, perforation etc.
Then what quality the stamps are. If one buys a huge bulk lot of unsorted old stamps it can be expected that a few more valuable stamps will be in there and sold for less than 10c / piece.
Finally the 10c/piece is again a very subjective term. If we factor our time in the equation, even at minimum wage rates, a 10c purchase may become a $2 purchase by the time you identify what you have.
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Another analytical look on this can be found at https://www.stampcollectingblog.com/collecting-the-world-of-stamps.php (note: this article, like all content on SCB, is for subscribers only. There is a free trial subscription that allows you to view the full entry).
It's a long (about 3,000 words + various charts/tables) analysis of StampWorld values of used stamps from 1840 to date, and how it relates to values in Michel.
The short answer to question - about 15% of 1840-1900 stamps (20K+ different ones) catalog for 1€ or less in StampWorld, and about a third catalog less than 5€. In contrast about half of the stamps catalog for 25€ or more.
-k-
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For the sake of information, if you compute the catalog value of the 1900 and under stamps at or under $1 what does it total. This is actually quite fascinating.
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For the sake of information, if you compute the catalog value of the 1900 and under stamps at or under $1 what does it total. This is actually quite fascinating.
CV of less than 1€ - 1 230€
Total CV of all stamps - 14 739 483€ (with about 900 stamps with undefined value).
All in all I recommend reading the entry. It contains tons of data/analysis.
-k-
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"For the US, I make it:
13 / 293
although I think the numerator could be double that, given that a lot of the $2-$3 items are well over-catalogued relative to their availability.
Roy"
Roy, I specialize in the U.S. and not only do I agree the the numerator could be twice that size, the denominator is artificially inflated by arbitrary type differences primarily invented by Stanley B. Ashbrook.
There are also a lot of 19th Century U.S. stamps you leave out. Especially the Officials and Newspaper stamps. I can see relegating the Newspaper stamps to Revenue status (although I would disagree), but it would be hard to dismiss the Officials.
Good luck on your quest!!!
Lars
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I was finally able to get access to the stampcollectingblog.com site from Keijo. His number for stamps under 1 euro was 2,801 for the period below 1900 not 15,000+. For stamps under 25 euro was where the 15,000 number came with 54% of cataloged stamps of the 19th century. That seems much more likely.
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15 Aug 2017
10:21:45am
About 3 years ago, I started a discussion entitled "Anybody have any idea of how many "minimum value" stamps there are?
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=9395#64605
However, this discussion quickly morphed into a discussion of the merits of a "minimum valuation" in the catalogues.
I would like to avoid such a morphing this time.
I frequently have to tell people who have a collection for sale (usually inherited or "found"):
"I am afraid that age is no indicator of the value of a stamp collection. A collector can accumulate tens of thousands of different stamps, from all over the world, all more than 100 years old, and never spend more than a few cents a stamp."
I would be interested to know if anyone has any statistics that would support this statement. As basic parameters, I would say that "a few cents a stamp" would allow a price up to 10c per stamp, and that catalogue values for such stamps would include stamps up to about $1.00 catalogue value (even though in practice, higher values can be found for less than 10c). Further limiting the question to 19th century gives a clearer dividing line than "100 years old", even though the next 17 years would include an awful lot of 10c stamps!
I routinely take large cartons (18x12x12 inches) of albums to my local stamp clubs and offer everything at 10c a stamp, "take your pick". I have never tracked how many people just go for the "old stuff".
Roy
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Great question Roy. I have a clarifying question which will determine the degree of magnitude you are going for.
Are you talking about all the different stamps by catalog number or by amount printed?
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
I don't have an answer, but there are a large number of stamps from the 19th Century that sell for ten cents or less.
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02:29:46pm
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Just to get some data started:
For Netherlands: 24/94
Netherlands Antilles 6/43
Netherlands Indies 19/55
(The above is the number of stamps cataloguing $1.00 or less/total number of issues.
The data is from Scott 2013, and defines the 19th century as up to and including 1900. Postage due stamps are included.)
Jan
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15 Aug 2017
04:22:29pm
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
smauggie: The number of different collectible stamps as presented in the catalogues, not by production.
In other words, "How big a collection could one reasonably expect to build by collecting only 19th century stamps and limiting spending to no more than 10c per stamp?".
Roy
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 300 categories
15 Aug 2017
04:31:38pm
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
For the US, I make it:
13 / 293
although I think the numerator could be double that, given that a lot of the $2-$3 items are well over-catalogued relative to their availability.
Roy
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this post
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Ok, it took me a while because I have been covered up today with other work.
But using a database of 2016 Scott catalog values and a quick custom query, I came up with the following.
Less than $1.00 --- 16,947 stamps
Less than .50 --- 15,039 stamps
Less than .25 --- 10,618 stamps
Less than .10 --- 8,124 stamps
This is for used, world wide stamps.
Don
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Roy, my best guess would be a few thousand. You could get more buying collections as the per stamp price would be less.
I flipped through the Scott Classic for 19th Century listings. Countries where you'd find the most minimal valued stamps are Latin America as a whole, Austria, some British Caribbean, British Guiana, Eastern Europe, Finland, India, Labuan, Liberia, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Mozambique, Mozambique Company, Netherlands, North Borneo, Philippines, Portugal, Portuguese Colonies, Puerto Rico, Russia, Serbia,
Other countries like Iran and Japan will garner several stamps as well. Most Dutch, French, German, and Italian colonies, forget it.
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06:09:25pm
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
51Studebaker, out of curiosity, how many 19th century stamps are there in the 2016 Scott?
Roy, before 51Studebaker's statistics, I was planning to give the anecdotal evidence that when I was actively buying Scott International Volume One (1840-1940) albums, I would estimate 2-8 cents per stamp depending upon the estimated size of the collection. So a small album of 2-3K stamps might bring $50-$60. A larger collection of 10,000 plus different might bring $600+. So, if you were lucky, you could get 15K 1840-1940 stamps for under 10 cents a stamp, even though these were rarely offered on eBay, at least.
Totally irrelevant, the recently sold Beville worldwide 1840-1940 collection of 86K stamps (including varieties) sold for $1,622,050 or almost $19 per stamp. So that gives some feel from both sides of the spectrum.
Bob
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
There were 28,455 1900 and earlier stamps. Note: this is from a commercial database and does not count stamps with null values.
Don
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
"Less than $1.00 --- 16,947 stamps"
"There were 28,455 1900 and earlier stamps"
Don- could you clarify?
What exactly is the $1 or less purchase price?
(Certainly not the CV I wouldn't think.)
So, does that mean that 55.6% of all 19th century stamps can reasonably be purchased for $1 or less?
The percentage seems high to me in my experience.
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
These are catalog values. I questioned the 56% too but I think that the number of nulls skewed the data. In fact there were so many nulls I had to use the query to filter them out before I copied the data to a spreadsheet (the query return more stamps than Excel would allow to be pasted into it.)
I assume that the nulls were mostly high value stamps. These commercial databases (i.e. Stampmanage, EZ Stamp) are not exact replicas of a Scott catalog.
Don
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
16 Aug 2017
02:03:33am
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
" ... There were 28,455 1900 and earlier stamps. Note: this is from a commercial database and does not count stamps with null values. ..."
The null values, what ever that includes would have to be counted since they could easily be bought for less than $0.10.
If I understand Roy's parameters, we are looking for the total number of stamps stamps, issued between 1840 and 1900, that have a catalog listing of $1.00, based on the knowledge that such stamps would seldom, on their own, actually be bought and sold for more than $0.10 each.
Is that accurate ?
This is a mighty challenge and will probably require someone actually sitting down with a recent set of Scott's and tabulating the issues.
Trying to use other people's numbers will bring too many variables into the project. But if done rigorously will be an interesting number to remember when we discuss the value of collections and accumulations.
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Was just trying to offer a bit more insight. Sorry I wasted everyone's time including my own. Won't happen again.
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Auctions
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Don,
not wasted at all; far more comprehensive than anything i've seen before and quite in line with Roy's request.
thanks for doing it.
David
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BuckaCover.com - 80,000 covers priced 60c to $1.50 - Easy browsing 300 categories
16 Aug 2017
09:48:31am
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
"not wasted at all; far more comprehensive than anything i've seen before and quite in line with Roy's request.
thanks for doing it."
Ditto.
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Don, your information surprised me. I didn't think there were that many. I found it to be interesting, and it reinforces my constant comments to those who think that just because they have an old stamp that it is more than likely not worth very much.
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Approvals
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
The answer probably is "More than anyone could think possible"
It will depend on how much knowledge a seller has about what he sells. How much time he is willing to invest in identifying his / her stamps - watermarks, paper, perforation etc.
Then what quality the stamps are. If one buys a huge bulk lot of unsorted old stamps it can be expected that a few more valuable stamps will be in there and sold for less than 10c / piece.
Finally the 10c/piece is again a very subjective term. If we factor our time in the equation, even at minimum wage rates, a 10c purchase may become a $2 purchase by the time you identify what you have.
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
Another analytical look on this can be found at https://www.stampcollectingblog.com/collecting-the-world-of-stamps.php (note: this article, like all content on SCB, is for subscribers only. There is a free trial subscription that allows you to view the full entry).
It's a long (about 3,000 words + various charts/tables) analysis of StampWorld values of used stamps from 1840 to date, and how it relates to values in Michel.
The short answer to question - about 15% of 1840-1900 stamps (20K+ different ones) catalog for 1€ or less in StampWorld, and about a third catalog less than 5€. In contrast about half of the stamps catalog for 25€ or more.
-k-
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
For the sake of information, if you compute the catalog value of the 1900 and under stamps at or under $1 what does it total. This is actually quite fascinating.
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this post
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
For the sake of information, if you compute the catalog value of the 1900 and under stamps at or under $1 what does it total. This is actually quite fascinating.
CV of less than 1€ - 1 230€
Total CV of all stamps - 14 739 483€ (with about 900 stamps with undefined value).
All in all I recommend reading the entry. It contains tons of data/analysis.
-k-
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this post
re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
"For the US, I make it:
13 / 293
although I think the numerator could be double that, given that a lot of the $2-$3 items are well over-catalogued relative to their availability.
Roy"
Roy, I specialize in the U.S. and not only do I agree the the numerator could be twice that size, the denominator is artificially inflated by arbitrary type differences primarily invented by Stanley B. Ashbrook.
There are also a lot of 19th Century U.S. stamps you leave out. Especially the Officials and Newspaper stamps. I can see relegating the Newspaper stamps to Revenue status (although I would disagree), but it would be hard to dismiss the Officials.
Good luck on your quest!!!
Lars
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re: How many different 19th century stamps do you think could be purchased for 10c or less?
I was finally able to get access to the stampcollectingblog.com site from Keijo. His number for stamps under 1 euro was 2,801 for the period below 1900 not 15,000+. For stamps under 25 euro was where the 15,000 number came with 54% of cataloged stamps of the 19th century. That seems much more likely.
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