Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Hi to all
Not withstanding, that if this stamp did have the red missing, and did not still show some of the Red of Australia and Joseph's cloak, I have the following questions.
1: If it had faded due to sunlight, then woundn't the other colours fade as well.
2: Under UV light is shows no evidence of tampering.
3: this stamp has been in a tin box with other stamps for more than forty years, with other Christmas 1964 stamps.
4: could it not also be a progressive loss of colour due to the printing as well?
5: Yes, I know that if it was missing the red, it would be a very valuable stamp, and yes I would send it to the RPSV to be certified.
6: Any suggestions are always appreciated.
Regards
Horamakhet
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Hi Horamakhet,
1. No, the color fastness of inks varies. This is the same with the color fastness in the dyes in our clothes.
2.UV detection works with some kinds of chemical changelings but not for light fading.
3.The stamp could have been exposed to sunlight in 1964. It can happen very quickly (i.e. a week of two). Over on SCF, we get so many questions about color changelings that some of the posters have resorted to testing the stamp themselves to prove the color fastness. Here is an example of a stamp which was exposed to sunlight and in less than 2 weeks this was the result.
4. Appears to me to be a classic example of a color changeling. One of the most obvious traits of a color changeling is an uneven color across the face of the stamp.
5. No comment
6. When searching for color printing errors keep in mind a few things. First, look for existing example. It would be highly unlikely to find a ‘never discovered’ missing color stamp that was more than 50 years old. Second, look for mint stamps. Used, off-cover stamps have, by definition, been through a soaking. Trying to get other folks to buy into a color changeling works a lot better with mint stamps. There are people who use bleach, lye, ammonia, and all kinds of other crazy chemicals when soaking stamps.
Don
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Hi 51 studebaker
Your ideas make sense.
but believe me, even hundred year old stamps have turned up with never before known varieties, the prime example here is the One Penny George V with the sideways watermark.
The example which is listed in the ACSC, refers to a copy discovered in Scotland in 2013, and sold for a very large sum, and which was damaged and thinned, and the ACSC lists that damaged copy at $85,000.00 ( page 4/75, note aa 22.
Imagine what an undamaged copy, which exists is worth, and this copy was discovered by accident as well
Remember the old story about the patent office in the USA, when it director resigned because he believed that everything had been invented, how wrong he was.
Horamakhet
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It is a common mistake for a colour changeling to be confused with a variety, and in the KGV side head series, numerous minor varieties occurred, so numerous, ACSC does not list them.
Colour changelings can occur from the ink reacting to chemicals, fading in sunlight, soaking, or just time (weak inking).
Rob
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Hi Rob
I agree, it is probably a colour changeling, but in philately, interesting discoveries happen all the time.
Probably the best known colour changeling is the Queen Victoria Great Britain Jubilee Issue of 1887-1900.
The Halfpenny Bicoloured Vermillion & White, has a colour changeling that is Green & White or Blue and white. (depending on how people perceive the colour.)
For generations it was believed to be a separate stamp till science and philatelic research proved otherwise.
There is even some speculation that one of the worlds rarest stamps the Three Skilling Banco yellow of Sweden may even be a colour changeling, who knows?
Regards
Horamakhet
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Hi Horamakhet,
Of course some ‘new discoveries’ have happened, but is that really the right way to look at this? This is like arguing that we should all go out and spend our time and money buying lottery tickets every week with the justification that others have previously won. Common sense dictates we should understand the actual odds.
Many of us enjoy dreaming about the possibility of finding a undiscovered stamp variety; but my opinion is that we need to be cautious about allowing our perspective to get caught up in the excitement. Our default perspective should allow be that we have the most common stamps and not that we have a rarity. Why be a wet blanket? Confirmation basis. Confirmation basis is when we interpret information in a way that confirms our preconceptions.
This is an especially important message to send to the newer hobbyists who might read out posts.
Don
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Hi 51studebaker
I think you are missing my point.
All I am saying is that it is nice to dream and hope, and that there are discoveries to be made.
It is the excitement of dreaming and hoping that keeps us from becoming staid and boring.
No-one is trying to be a wet blanket.
Henry David Thereau the famous philosopher once said
"It is alright to build your castles in the clouds, so long as you keep your foundation on the ground"
I also collect rare books, and sometimes I find after many years an elusive title I have been searching for, and usually in the most unexpected of places.
Dream and keep dreaming, never lose sight of what you are dreaming about
Horamakhet
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My comment about being a wet blanket was referring to myself. I meant that I was not trying to impact anyone’s enjoyment of the hobby. I agree that one of the fun things about our hobby is finding a rarer stamp among our holdings.
But my concern is that we communicate and promote the easily attainable qualities of our great hobby; not the exceedingly unlikelihood that someone might get rich by finding a previously unknown stamp. Making new friends, learning about other countries, cultures and peoples, studying history, and broadening our understanding of the world are qualities of our hobby which are easy to accomplish.
If people join our hobby based upon the expectation that they will make a new, undiscovered find I fear they will quickly become frustrated, lose motivation, put their albums on the shelf, and walk away from the hobby.
Don
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I see your point
Hope I have not offended anyone
Stamp collecting is one of the most enjoyable and exhilarating hobbies
Horamakhet
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I have always been amazed and jealous that some collectors actually find a rare stamp or two lying around in a family collection, I could not.
It is just like the time when I was 20, a young boy somewhere in Australia was looking through the rubbish left out for the council on the footpath, he cam across an old coins album full of old pennies, he took them home and showed his father who was a numismatist and noticed he had a full collection of KGV pennies, with very scarce dates and all in very fine condition, but one in particular caught his eye, a 1930 penny, worth at the time $10,000, they are now worth nearly $30,000 in very fine condition.
Rob
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Hi Rob and all
I know what you mean.
It is like when a friend of mine bought two tattslotto tickets 20 years ago, he said to a friend you pick one and I will keep the other.
Sure enough, the friends ticket won $500,000, dollars his nothing. He lost a good friend because of it. Moral of story, don't buy friends tatts tickets.
I still have about thirty tins each about 10 x 8 inches full of unsorted world stamps given to me by the family.
I am not even going to look in them, as I am still trying to sort through the Australia & New Zealand tins.
I am going on holidays with the Wife and Children for ten days, ( I have six aged from nearly 20 to the youngest who is 10, four boys, two girls)
We will be cruising the Pacific, and yes I will be checking out all the local stalls for stamps.
Regards
Horamakhet
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Have now returned from the cruise.
The weather was fantastic, as were the beaches.
I saw some stamps in Noumea, but unfortunately they were all badly rusted and not worth the money the seller was asking. Mostly French Colonies, but some George VI Australia, but again badly rusted.
Regards
Horamakhet
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I don't know much about fading, but It might be a good idea to let an expert look at it. This is one NOT faded.
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Although I still believe it is caused by one of the events I mentioned earlier, I believe it is time to have it authenticated, these particular stamps are very scarce.
Here is an example from the Richard Juzwin Stamps website (there are various varieties of this error).
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HI all
I think I might bite the bullet and send it off to have it examined.
That way I will no one way or the other.
Who knows what may turn up in my families collection. I have not really looked seriously at the decimals or George VI.
I am first sorting all the KGV in to the values, then the different watermarks, then I will check them one by one in the ACSC, a long and enjoyable journey.
Regards
Horamakhet
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this post
Hi to all
Not withstanding, that if this stamp did have the red missing, and did not still show some of the Red of Australia and Joseph's cloak, I have the following questions.
1: If it had faded due to sunlight, then woundn't the other colours fade as well.
2: Under UV light is shows no evidence of tampering.
3: this stamp has been in a tin box with other stamps for more than forty years, with other Christmas 1964 stamps.
4: could it not also be a progressive loss of colour due to the printing as well?
5: Yes, I know that if it was missing the red, it would be a very valuable stamp, and yes I would send it to the RPSV to be certified.
6: Any suggestions are always appreciated.
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
Hi Horamakhet,
1. No, the color fastness of inks varies. This is the same with the color fastness in the dyes in our clothes.
2.UV detection works with some kinds of chemical changelings but not for light fading.
3.The stamp could have been exposed to sunlight in 1964. It can happen very quickly (i.e. a week of two). Over on SCF, we get so many questions about color changelings that some of the posters have resorted to testing the stamp themselves to prove the color fastness. Here is an example of a stamp which was exposed to sunlight and in less than 2 weeks this was the result.
4. Appears to me to be a classic example of a color changeling. One of the most obvious traits of a color changeling is an uneven color across the face of the stamp.
5. No comment
6. When searching for color printing errors keep in mind a few things. First, look for existing example. It would be highly unlikely to find a ‘never discovered’ missing color stamp that was more than 50 years old. Second, look for mint stamps. Used, off-cover stamps have, by definition, been through a soaking. Trying to get other folks to buy into a color changeling works a lot better with mint stamps. There are people who use bleach, lye, ammonia, and all kinds of other crazy chemicals when soaking stamps.
Don
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.
re: Christmas 1964
Hi 51 studebaker
Your ideas make sense.
but believe me, even hundred year old stamps have turned up with never before known varieties, the prime example here is the One Penny George V with the sideways watermark.
The example which is listed in the ACSC, refers to a copy discovered in Scotland in 2013, and sold for a very large sum, and which was damaged and thinned, and the ACSC lists that damaged copy at $85,000.00 ( page 4/75, note aa 22.
Imagine what an undamaged copy, which exists is worth, and this copy was discovered by accident as well
Remember the old story about the patent office in the USA, when it director resigned because he believed that everything had been invented, how wrong he was.
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
12 Jan 2018
10:47:34pm
re: Christmas 1964
It is a common mistake for a colour changeling to be confused with a variety, and in the KGV side head series, numerous minor varieties occurred, so numerous, ACSC does not list them.
Colour changelings can occur from the ink reacting to chemicals, fading in sunlight, soaking, or just time (weak inking).
Rob
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
Hi Rob
I agree, it is probably a colour changeling, but in philately, interesting discoveries happen all the time.
Probably the best known colour changeling is the Queen Victoria Great Britain Jubilee Issue of 1887-1900.
The Halfpenny Bicoloured Vermillion & White, has a colour changeling that is Green & White or Blue and white. (depending on how people perceive the colour.)
For generations it was believed to be a separate stamp till science and philatelic research proved otherwise.
There is even some speculation that one of the worlds rarest stamps the Three Skilling Banco yellow of Sweden may even be a colour changeling, who knows?
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
Hi Horamakhet,
Of course some ‘new discoveries’ have happened, but is that really the right way to look at this? This is like arguing that we should all go out and spend our time and money buying lottery tickets every week with the justification that others have previously won. Common sense dictates we should understand the actual odds.
Many of us enjoy dreaming about the possibility of finding a undiscovered stamp variety; but my opinion is that we need to be cautious about allowing our perspective to get caught up in the excitement. Our default perspective should allow be that we have the most common stamps and not that we have a rarity. Why be a wet blanket? Confirmation basis. Confirmation basis is when we interpret information in a way that confirms our preconceptions.
This is an especially important message to send to the newer hobbyists who might read out posts.
Don
1 Member
likes this post.
Login to Like.
re: Christmas 1964
Hi 51studebaker
I think you are missing my point.
All I am saying is that it is nice to dream and hope, and that there are discoveries to be made.
It is the excitement of dreaming and hoping that keeps us from becoming staid and boring.
No-one is trying to be a wet blanket.
Henry David Thereau the famous philosopher once said
"It is alright to build your castles in the clouds, so long as you keep your foundation on the ground"
I also collect rare books, and sometimes I find after many years an elusive title I have been searching for, and usually in the most unexpected of places.
Dream and keep dreaming, never lose sight of what you are dreaming about
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
My comment about being a wet blanket was referring to myself. I meant that I was not trying to impact anyone’s enjoyment of the hobby. I agree that one of the fun things about our hobby is finding a rarer stamp among our holdings.
But my concern is that we communicate and promote the easily attainable qualities of our great hobby; not the exceedingly unlikelihood that someone might get rich by finding a previously unknown stamp. Making new friends, learning about other countries, cultures and peoples, studying history, and broadening our understanding of the world are qualities of our hobby which are easy to accomplish.
If people join our hobby based upon the expectation that they will make a new, undiscovered find I fear they will quickly become frustrated, lose motivation, put their albums on the shelf, and walk away from the hobby.
Don
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
I see your point
Hope I have not offended anyone
Stamp collecting is one of the most enjoyable and exhilarating hobbies
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
13 Jan 2018
08:23:41am
re: Christmas 1964
I have always been amazed and jealous that some collectors actually find a rare stamp or two lying around in a family collection, I could not.
It is just like the time when I was 20, a young boy somewhere in Australia was looking through the rubbish left out for the council on the footpath, he cam across an old coins album full of old pennies, he took them home and showed his father who was a numismatist and noticed he had a full collection of KGV pennies, with very scarce dates and all in very fine condition, but one in particular caught his eye, a 1930 penny, worth at the time $10,000, they are now worth nearly $30,000 in very fine condition.
Rob
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
Hi Rob and all
I know what you mean.
It is like when a friend of mine bought two tattslotto tickets 20 years ago, he said to a friend you pick one and I will keep the other.
Sure enough, the friends ticket won $500,000, dollars his nothing. He lost a good friend because of it. Moral of story, don't buy friends tatts tickets.
I still have about thirty tins each about 10 x 8 inches full of unsorted world stamps given to me by the family.
I am not even going to look in them, as I am still trying to sort through the Australia & New Zealand tins.
I am going on holidays with the Wife and Children for ten days, ( I have six aged from nearly 20 to the youngest who is 10, four boys, two girls)
We will be cruising the Pacific, and yes I will be checking out all the local stalls for stamps.
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
Have now returned from the cruise.
The weather was fantastic, as were the beaches.
I saw some stamps in Noumea, but unfortunately they were all badly rusted and not worth the money the seller was asking. Mostly French Colonies, but some George VI Australia, but again badly rusted.
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
I don't know much about fading, but It might be a good idea to let an expert look at it. This is one NOT faded.
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this post
Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
30 Jan 2018
02:57:23pm
re: Christmas 1964
Although I still believe it is caused by one of the events I mentioned earlier, I believe it is time to have it authenticated, these particular stamps are very scarce.
Here is an example from the Richard Juzwin Stamps website (there are various varieties of this error).
Login to Like
this post
re: Christmas 1964
HI all
I think I might bite the bullet and send it off to have it examined.
That way I will no one way or the other.
Who knows what may turn up in my families collection. I have not really looked seriously at the decimals or George VI.
I am first sorting all the KGV in to the values, then the different watermarks, then I will check them one by one in the ACSC, a long and enjoyable journey.
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post