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Off Topic/Non-philatelic Disc. : Violence on stamps

 

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stokesville
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20 Jan 2018
06:33:13pm
I was cataloging some stamps from North Korea when I came across Scott #986-991 a 1971 set depicting the "Anti-Imperialist, Anti-U.S. Struggle." What momentarily stunned me was the description of the highest denomination stamp (40ch) as described in the 2012 Volume 4 Scotts- "six soldiers of various nationalities bayoneting dismembered U.S. soldier." This is some 18 years after the end of the Korean War- granted the Viet Nam War was still very active- but was the hatred still that intense? I can't think of any other stamps with a description as vivid and hateful as that.
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Guthrum
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21 Jan 2018
06:03:34am
re: Violence on stamps

The image in question is this one:

Image Not Found

...which I agree is a graphic illustration of the hatred of the USA which that regime wished to impress upon its people, and possibly upon anyone else in the world who might come across the stamp. Scott's literal description merely adds to the outrage which the image intends to provoke. (Colnect has "Attackers from around the world holds [sic] down US soldier", which may well be a literal translation from the Korean, but is both less provocative than the Scott description and also, you may think, less accurate.)

No Western power with a history of military adventure in far-off lands should be too surprised when it subsequently becomes the target of hatred, whether genuine or contrived through the medium of propaganda. There are, I dare say, not many examples of such direct violence on stamps, which suggests that it may not be the best way to spread that sort of message, but a study of such images where they do occur would be interesting, and a salutary reminder that we are not held in universal respect by all nations of the world.

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Bobstamp
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21 Jan 2018
08:29:42pm
re: Violence on stamps

Along the same lines is this 1944 Russia stamp. Scott describes the design as "Soldier Bayoneting a Nazi":

Image Not Found

Bob

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Guthrum
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22 Jan 2018
04:36:19am
re: Violence on stamps

...whereas Gibbons describes it less graphically as "Bayonet fighter and flag".

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Oldmanemu

22 Jan 2018
06:37:54pm
re: Violence on stamps

This article makes interesting reading about the seizure of an American ship near North Korea in 1968. I was not aware of this incident.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/20/asia/north-korea-uss-pueblo-intl/index.html

These are some North Korean stamps that recognise this event.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

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Bobstamp
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22 Jan 2018
11:35:38pm
re: Violence on stamps

Two more, both semi-postals issued shortly after the Second World War:

Poland, 1946, “‘Death’ Spreading Poison Gas over Majdanek Prison Camp” (Scott’s description — Majdanek was a concentration camp near Lublin):

Image Not Found

Luxembourg, 1945, “Executed Civilian” (Scott’s description — one of four stamps issued as a tribute to Luxembourg’s heroes and martyrs. I’m uncertain of the use here of the term “Caritas,” which is Latin for “charity (virtue), one of the three theological virtues). Funds raised by the sale of these stamps was for the National Welfare Fund.

Image Not Found

Bob

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Guthrum
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23 Jan 2018
05:10:49am
re: Violence on stamps

There's a distinction to be made here between depiction of the victims of violence, and depiction of its perpetrators. On the rare occasions when the latter category includes the victim (the Soviet and North Korean stamps posted on this thread) we are in an area where Western civilisation, at least, would regard the image as offensive or obscene. Yet the Korean stamp is clearly symbolic, however crude, more in the cartoonish tradition of Gillray, Scarfe or Rowson, than in the realism of the shot prisoner of the Luxembourg stamp.

It is of course the purpose of the Korean stamp to be seen by its population to be as offensive to the USA as possible. I'm less sure about the stamp from the USSR, whose population surely needed no prompting, by 1943-44, to take a view on Nazi Germany. Its prominence in the set (the only bi-coloured stamp, and the middle value in a set of five) cannot be accidental. My own view is that it was designed to appeal to the younger age-group of Soviet youth, who might be more impressed by graphic scenes of violence than those for whom it had become a gruesome reality. There are other sets from around the same time depicting scenes of heroic sacrifice; these propose narratives from which the urge to avenge victims of fascism (Shura Chekalin, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya) is the principal aim.

But in the end we have only two stamps which challenge our cultural view of what is an obscene image of violence. I doubt if there are many more.

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51Studebaker
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23 Jan 2018
06:00:07am
re: Violence on stamps

I posted this video I made a while back and several folks felt it was grim, dark, and violent. It includes stamps which depicts the bombing of Dresden and atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (among others). War sucks.



Don

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StampCollector
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23 Jan 2018
01:41:00pm
re: Violence on stamps

Exactly, only those that have never been in one or watch it on tv are for it.
Howdy from Beijing, China where if it wasn't for the signs I could be in any US city.

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

23 Jan 2018
02:23:45pm
re: Violence on stamps

To counter balance the horror of war violence...

One Voice Children's Choir, under the direction of Masa Fukuda, performs "When You Believe." Filmed on-location at Omaha Beach and Brittany American Cemetery and Memorial in Normandy, France. Performed in English, Hebrew and French. This song is dedicated to all the soldiers who fought in World War II, including those who fought at Normandy's Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno and Sword Beaches in the D-Day Invasion; and to the millions of Jewish victims who lost their lives during the Nazi Holocaust.



Don

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

23 Jan 2018
03:36:43pm

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re: Violence on stamps

Stephen,

today marks the 50th anniversary of the taking of the Pueblo. The NY Times had a particularly in depth discussion of it today, relating more to the politics that made responses all the more problematic for the American administration (Johnson, but not for much longer). Apparently, the crew, badly treated in North Korea during their captivity, fared little better upon repatriation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/opinion/pueblo-ship-vietnam-war.html

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Stampme

23 Jan 2018
06:25:31pm
re: Violence on stamps

I read that Pueblo article you provided the link for reading and remembered the middle finger thing which was not mentioned unless of course I missed it.

Go read about that here:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/north-korean-officials-had-no-idea-what-their-hostages-were-signaling-in-this-photo

Bruce



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michael78651
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23 Jan 2018
07:47:08pm
re: Violence on stamps

North Viet Nam likewise issued stamps during the war that commemorated the count of US planes shot down as the count increased by 500 planes downed starting in 1965. Most show the plane crashing in flames. One shows a USA pilot as a POW (1972 for the 3500th plane shot down), and the last set issued in 1973 was for the 4,181st plane shot down, which I believe is the final count per North Viet Nam.

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Opa
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25 Jan 2018
12:17:35pm
re: Violence on stamps

I think this is one of the stamps from Viet Nam you mean Michael.

Image Not Found
I am not sure but believe the jet shot down is a Thunderchief.

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Bobstamp
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26 Jan 2018
04:24:03pm
re: Violence on stamps

That's correct, Opa — an F-105 Thunderchief, "affectionately" called a "Thud" by pilots and crew. It was one of the primary Air Force fighter-bombers used in bombing North Vietnam. Below, a North Vietnamese souvenir bi-fold card in my collection, featuring each of the "U.S. Planes Shot Down" stamps that North Vietnam issued.

Image Not Found
Image Not Found

When I began collecting North Vietnam stamps I assumed that the "planes shot down" issues were little but propaganda, which they were of course. I thought that there was no way the North Vietnamese could have destroyed so many American aircraft. I was wrong.

Propaganda wasn't just North Vietnamese. The Americans did a good job of covering up their aircraft losses and the war generally, especially in the beginning phase. An amusing recording from 1966, the year I was in in South Vietnam, nicely parodies American propaganda about the air war in Vietnam. The YouTube version is titled Cam Ran Bay: What the captain means.

Bob

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stokesville

20 Jan 2018
06:33:13pm

I was cataloging some stamps from North Korea when I came across Scott #986-991 a 1971 set depicting the "Anti-Imperialist, Anti-U.S. Struggle." What momentarily stunned me was the description of the highest denomination stamp (40ch) as described in the 2012 Volume 4 Scotts- "six soldiers of various nationalities bayoneting dismembered U.S. soldier." This is some 18 years after the end of the Korean War- granted the Viet Nam War was still very active- but was the hatred still that intense? I can't think of any other stamps with a description as vivid and hateful as that.

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Guthrum

21 Jan 2018
06:03:34am

re: Violence on stamps

The image in question is this one:

Image Not Found

...which I agree is a graphic illustration of the hatred of the USA which that regime wished to impress upon its people, and possibly upon anyone else in the world who might come across the stamp. Scott's literal description merely adds to the outrage which the image intends to provoke. (Colnect has "Attackers from around the world holds [sic] down US soldier", which may well be a literal translation from the Korean, but is both less provocative than the Scott description and also, you may think, less accurate.)

No Western power with a history of military adventure in far-off lands should be too surprised when it subsequently becomes the target of hatred, whether genuine or contrived through the medium of propaganda. There are, I dare say, not many examples of such direct violence on stamps, which suggests that it may not be the best way to spread that sort of message, but a study of such images where they do occur would be interesting, and a salutary reminder that we are not held in universal respect by all nations of the world.

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Bobstamp

21 Jan 2018
08:29:42pm

re: Violence on stamps

Along the same lines is this 1944 Russia stamp. Scott describes the design as "Soldier Bayoneting a Nazi":

Image Not Found

Bob

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Guthrum

22 Jan 2018
04:36:19am

re: Violence on stamps

...whereas Gibbons describes it less graphically as "Bayonet fighter and flag".

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Oldmanemu

22 Jan 2018
06:37:54pm

re: Violence on stamps

This article makes interesting reading about the seizure of an American ship near North Korea in 1968. I was not aware of this incident.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/20/asia/north-korea-uss-pueblo-intl/index.html

These are some North Korean stamps that recognise this event.

Image Not Found

Image Not Found

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Bobstamp

22 Jan 2018
11:35:38pm

re: Violence on stamps

Two more, both semi-postals issued shortly after the Second World War:

Poland, 1946, “‘Death’ Spreading Poison Gas over Majdanek Prison Camp” (Scott’s description — Majdanek was a concentration camp near Lublin):

Image Not Found

Luxembourg, 1945, “Executed Civilian” (Scott’s description — one of four stamps issued as a tribute to Luxembourg’s heroes and martyrs. I’m uncertain of the use here of the term “Caritas,” which is Latin for “charity (virtue), one of the three theological virtues). Funds raised by the sale of these stamps was for the National Welfare Fund.

Image Not Found

Bob

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Guthrum

23 Jan 2018
05:10:49am

re: Violence on stamps

There's a distinction to be made here between depiction of the victims of violence, and depiction of its perpetrators. On the rare occasions when the latter category includes the victim (the Soviet and North Korean stamps posted on this thread) we are in an area where Western civilisation, at least, would regard the image as offensive or obscene. Yet the Korean stamp is clearly symbolic, however crude, more in the cartoonish tradition of Gillray, Scarfe or Rowson, than in the realism of the shot prisoner of the Luxembourg stamp.

It is of course the purpose of the Korean stamp to be seen by its population to be as offensive to the USA as possible. I'm less sure about the stamp from the USSR, whose population surely needed no prompting, by 1943-44, to take a view on Nazi Germany. Its prominence in the set (the only bi-coloured stamp, and the middle value in a set of five) cannot be accidental. My own view is that it was designed to appeal to the younger age-group of Soviet youth, who might be more impressed by graphic scenes of violence than those for whom it had become a gruesome reality. There are other sets from around the same time depicting scenes of heroic sacrifice; these propose narratives from which the urge to avenge victims of fascism (Shura Chekalin, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya) is the principal aim.

But in the end we have only two stamps which challenge our cultural view of what is an obscene image of violence. I doubt if there are many more.

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
23 Jan 2018
06:00:07am

re: Violence on stamps

I posted this video I made a while back and several folks felt it was grim, dark, and violent. It includes stamps which depicts the bombing of Dresden and atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (among others). War sucks.



Don

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StampCollector

23 Jan 2018
01:41:00pm

re: Violence on stamps

Exactly, only those that have never been in one or watch it on tv are for it.
Howdy from Beijing, China where if it wasn't for the signs I could be in any US city.

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
23 Jan 2018
02:23:45pm

re: Violence on stamps

To counter balance the horror of war violence...

One Voice Children's Choir, under the direction of Masa Fukuda, performs "When You Believe." Filmed on-location at Omaha Beach and Brittany American Cemetery and Memorial in Normandy, France. Performed in English, Hebrew and French. This song is dedicated to all the soldiers who fought in World War II, including those who fought at Normandy's Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno and Sword Beaches in the D-Day Invasion; and to the millions of Jewish victims who lost their lives during the Nazi Holocaust.



Don

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amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
23 Jan 2018
03:36:43pm

Auctions

re: Violence on stamps

Stephen,

today marks the 50th anniversary of the taking of the Pueblo. The NY Times had a particularly in depth discussion of it today, relating more to the politics that made responses all the more problematic for the American administration (Johnson, but not for much longer). Apparently, the crew, badly treated in North Korea during their captivity, fared little better upon repatriation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/opinion/pueblo-ship-vietnam-war.html

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Stampme

23 Jan 2018
06:25:31pm

re: Violence on stamps

I read that Pueblo article you provided the link for reading and remembered the middle finger thing which was not mentioned unless of course I missed it.

Go read about that here:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/north-korean-officials-had-no-idea-what-their-hostages-were-signaling-in-this-photo

Bruce



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michael78651

23 Jan 2018
07:47:08pm

re: Violence on stamps

North Viet Nam likewise issued stamps during the war that commemorated the count of US planes shot down as the count increased by 500 planes downed starting in 1965. Most show the plane crashing in flames. One shows a USA pilot as a POW (1972 for the 3500th plane shot down), and the last set issued in 1973 was for the 4,181st plane shot down, which I believe is the final count per North Viet Nam.

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Opa

25 Jan 2018
12:17:35pm

re: Violence on stamps

I think this is one of the stamps from Viet Nam you mean Michael.

Image Not Found
I am not sure but believe the jet shot down is a Thunderchief.

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Bobstamp

26 Jan 2018
04:24:03pm

re: Violence on stamps

That's correct, Opa — an F-105 Thunderchief, "affectionately" called a "Thud" by pilots and crew. It was one of the primary Air Force fighter-bombers used in bombing North Vietnam. Below, a North Vietnamese souvenir bi-fold card in my collection, featuring each of the "U.S. Planes Shot Down" stamps that North Vietnam issued.

Image Not Found
Image Not Found

When I began collecting North Vietnam stamps I assumed that the "planes shot down" issues were little but propaganda, which they were of course. I thought that there was no way the North Vietnamese could have destroyed so many American aircraft. I was wrong.

Propaganda wasn't just North Vietnamese. The Americans did a good job of covering up their aircraft losses and the war generally, especially in the beginning phase. An amusing recording from 1966, the year I was in in South Vietnam, nicely parodies American propaganda about the air war in Vietnam. The YouTube version is titled Cam Ran Bay: What the captain means.

Bob

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