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United States/Stamps : Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

 

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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

27 Jan 2018
03:42:48pm
This discussion could apply to any stamp pricing such as this one: Mint catalog value is $350; used is $1,250.

Is there any sense in buying something advertised as Used, especially if it doesn’t come with an expertizing certificate? And how would it be expertized anyway? Chemical analysis of the ink? To further complicate matters, Scott’s says there is no known example of a 315 cancelled on cover.

When I was a teacher, I had a cancellation rubber stamp made to use with letter-writing projects. I could have made my own used #315s! (I also had a rubber stamp with a witch that I inked on a student’s paper whenever he or she misspelled “which.” Sorry, off the topic.)

So what’s the story with this stamp?

I have a couple pictures from eBay, but I'm having trouble uploading them. I'll try in a separate post. Here are the links:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Scott-315-Used-Light-Hinge-Mark-SCV-1-250/222801843566?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stamps-315-304-Cancelled-5c-Lincoln-Stamps-FREE-SHIPPING/273031355033?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649




















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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

27 Jan 2018
03:46:23pm
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Trying again to upload pictures . . .

Image Not Found


Image Not Found


Image Not Found


Image Not Found

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

27 Jan 2018
04:39:02pm
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Faked or altered stamps. The #315 is one of the most commonly faked/altered stamps listed on eBay. Do not buy a #315 without a certificate. Look closely for remaining perf holes (I can see some in the image you posted).

If you buy one without a certificate make sure the seller will allow you to return if it comes back as a trimmed #305. The certification folks will reject any stamps which is not at least 21.5mm x25 mm.

Used is less common than mint, any used stamp would have to have a recognized contemporaneous cancel.

Here are the remaining perfs holes from the two listings in your post

Image Not Found

Of the #315's w/o certs listed on eBay I would estimate that 90% of them are faked altered stamps.

Don

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StamperMA
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27 Jan 2018
05:48:02pm
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

51Stude,

Great explanation for a new collector like me... thanks!

Dennis

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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

28 Jan 2018
10:17:07am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Great eye, Studebaker51 (and great car)!

I've keep checking the APS store for #315 unused or mints and come up blank. Obviously eBay is not the place to go for this issue, unless it's something like this one with a huge upper selvedge. But what do you think about the used one below, with what appears to be the next stamp image at the bottom edge? I don't know about those clipped corners; are they really a sort of vending perforation?


Image Not Found

Image Not Found

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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

28 Jan 2018
10:20:26am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Looking again at at that clipped one, though, it's just a line border and not a box (no vertical side lines). I guess I've got to get out to more bourses....

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

28 Jan 2018
11:39:29am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

The top stamp you show (with top margin) is legitimate but the seller is the British Cartel person (bargain-discount-deals name). I would never, ever deal with him for obvious reasons. Obvious meaning that he has 50+ eBay accounts and shill bids his material, he is a convicted felon, he is notorious for faked/altered stamps, etc. (I would never post this unless it had been well documented and proven.)

The second one may or may not be legitimate, it looks pretty good to my eye but I would only buy it if the seller would take it back if a cert did not come back clean.

If you are buying on eBay, knowing the seller is as important as knowing your stamps. If you are shopping for a #315, only buy one on eBay from a known good seller and only if one the following is true
1. It has a valid certificate
2. It is a pair
3. The seller will accept a return if the cert comes back as not legitimate
Don

Edit; With online purchasing the most 'at risk' group are intermediate collectors. Collectors who are beyond beginners and are looking to find the less common stamps but are not experts.

Yes, experts who really know their stuff can sometimes find great buys on eBay. But the slippery slope is our egos; we think we know enough but this leaves us highly venerable.

Good sellers know what quality material is worth and they list it as such. Searching for a stamp with 'lowest price first' is not a way to find good deals; doing this typically results in exposing yourself to some very questionable material and sellers.

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

30 Jan 2018
01:10:57am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

earwaves,

Regarding 315, the main reason 315 used is faked so commonly is this:

315 can easily be faked from 304. The stamp is real and the cancel is real, but the perforations are trimmed off. These stamps were printed on a flat plate press and 4% of them already had two natural straight edges. Another 36% had one straight edge. Simply find a stamp with big margins and one or two natural straight edges and it's easy to fake.

I did one myself (and wrote 304 on the back with a blue Sharpie):

Image Not Found

The reason these are so often fakes is 304 used catalogs for $2.25. It's not hard to pick one up for less than $1. If you can trick someone into thinking it's a $1250 stamp, that's a tempting payday for some folks.

Now look at 315 mint. $325 for MH is still pricey, but 304 MH is $60. That's a pretty big risk damaging a genuine 304 to MAYBE create a passable 315. And a MH 315 without a cert or a guarantee is probably worth about as much as a MH 304.

Lars

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

30 Jan 2018
07:01:52am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

There is a comment about width but if I look at the stamp it appears to measure just under 22mm.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
c3a

30 Jan 2018
08:49:42am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Thanks, everyone. This has been a lot more interesting and educational than I expected.
Applause

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jclectica.com
BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

30 Jan 2018
07:40:20pm

Approvals
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

The imperforate sheets of stamps from the Series of 1902 were produced by the USPOD to allow companies to work on the development of postage affixing and vending machines. Per my 1 Cent Ben Franklin stamp, over the years I've collected examples of all the listed private perforations. The only one of those I've seen on legitimate postal usage are the Shermack Type 3 perforations.

Image Not Found

I have examples of them on advertising mail, which were stamped by a Shermack affixing machine.

Image Not Found


I also have examples of railroad company post cards, probably from Shermack vending machines at railroad stations. This one appears to be a traveling salesman making appointments via postcard.

Other than that, every single 314 imperf stamp I've seen on cover has been a philatelic cover. Sheets of these stamps weren't sold at the normal post office. They were sold to manufacturers of equipment, and probably to stamp dealers of the time. I see them used on stamp dealer mail, and mail from known philatelists of the era. Some usage going all the way to the 1920s, so there was no doubt a surplus of these around hobby circles.

I once saw a cover with a stamp dealer corner card with three different private perforation pairs on it. It was posted in the 1920s. A dealer wanted a huge sum for it as a rare cover. I didn't want it for my collection because it did not represent legitimate usage.

Image Not Found

Out of era cover with Covel private perforations. The story was that collector Alvin Filstrop had Shermack make this variety for him. This is Scott unlisted and often mistaken for extremely rare Scott 318. There are tons of covers sent to and from Covel with interesting stamps on them. It appears Alvin included them as SASEs to business associates and kept them when returned through the mails.

Image Not Found

Here's a stamp dealer cover (Nassau Street was famous for stamp dealers) dated all the way to 1928, with a Shermack Type 3 private perf and an older stamp.



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pigdoc

31 Jan 2018
07:26:18am
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

VERY interesting, Tom!
THANKS!

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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

05 Feb 2018
03:31:28pm
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Thanks BF1902

I wonder why private perfs are not priced in Scott's Specialized. Too easy to fake? Do the private perfs lower the value of them?

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

05 Feb 2018
09:09:47pm

Approvals
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

"I wonder why private perfs are not priced in Scott's Specialized. Too easy to fake? Do the private perfs lower the value of them?"



Scott's Specialized does list private perfs. They are in their own section, back of the book. Private perfs on Scott 314 are worth more than the basic stamp. The least valuable and most plentiful is the Shermack Type 3. I've paid a pretty penny for some of the others in my collection.

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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

07 Feb 2018
02:48:43pm
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Anglophile,

I have been watching the Kelleher 315's. I'm glad I'm a collector who does not demand Never Hinged. Some of my album unused favorites have grungy remnants, but I never have to look at that side! Thanks for your advice about certificates.

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earwaves
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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.

07 Feb 2018
02:53:38pm
re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Ben F,

Aha: "Imperforate flat plate coil stamps."

Thanks.

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Author/Postings

Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
27 Jan 2018
03:42:48pm

This discussion could apply to any stamp pricing such as this one: Mint catalog value is $350; used is $1,250.

Is there any sense in buying something advertised as Used, especially if it doesn’t come with an expertizing certificate? And how would it be expertized anyway? Chemical analysis of the ink? To further complicate matters, Scott’s says there is no known example of a 315 cancelled on cover.

When I was a teacher, I had a cancellation rubber stamp made to use with letter-writing projects. I could have made my own used #315s! (I also had a rubber stamp with a witch that I inked on a student’s paper whenever he or she misspelled “which.” Sorry, off the topic.)

So what’s the story with this stamp?

I have a couple pictures from eBay, but I'm having trouble uploading them. I'll try in a separate post. Here are the links:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Scott-315-Used-Light-Hinge-Mark-SCV-1-250/222801843566?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stamps-315-304-Cancelled-5c-Lincoln-Stamps-FREE-SHIPPING/273031355033?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649




















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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
27 Jan 2018
03:46:23pm

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Trying again to upload pictures . . .

Image Not Found


Image Not Found


Image Not Found


Image Not Found

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
27 Jan 2018
04:39:02pm

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Faked or altered stamps. The #315 is one of the most commonly faked/altered stamps listed on eBay. Do not buy a #315 without a certificate. Look closely for remaining perf holes (I can see some in the image you posted).

If you buy one without a certificate make sure the seller will allow you to return if it comes back as a trimmed #305. The certification folks will reject any stamps which is not at least 21.5mm x25 mm.

Used is less common than mint, any used stamp would have to have a recognized contemporaneous cancel.

Here are the remaining perfs holes from the two listings in your post

Image Not Found

Of the #315's w/o certs listed on eBay I would estimate that 90% of them are faked altered stamps.

Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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StamperMA

27 Jan 2018
05:48:02pm

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

51Stude,

Great explanation for a new collector like me... thanks!

Dennis

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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
28 Jan 2018
10:17:07am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Great eye, Studebaker51 (and great car)!

I've keep checking the APS store for #315 unused or mints and come up blank. Obviously eBay is not the place to go for this issue, unless it's something like this one with a huge upper selvedge. But what do you think about the used one below, with what appears to be the next stamp image at the bottom edge? I don't know about those clipped corners; are they really a sort of vending perforation?


Image Not Found

Image Not Found

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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
28 Jan 2018
10:20:26am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Looking again at at that clipped one, though, it's just a line border and not a box (no vertical side lines). I guess I've got to get out to more bourses....

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
28 Jan 2018
11:39:29am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

The top stamp you show (with top margin) is legitimate but the seller is the British Cartel person (bargain-discount-deals name). I would never, ever deal with him for obvious reasons. Obvious meaning that he has 50+ eBay accounts and shill bids his material, he is a convicted felon, he is notorious for faked/altered stamps, etc. (I would never post this unless it had been well documented and proven.)

The second one may or may not be legitimate, it looks pretty good to my eye but I would only buy it if the seller would take it back if a cert did not come back clean.

If you are buying on eBay, knowing the seller is as important as knowing your stamps. If you are shopping for a #315, only buy one on eBay from a known good seller and only if one the following is true
1. It has a valid certificate
2. It is a pair
3. The seller will accept a return if the cert comes back as not legitimate
Don

Edit; With online purchasing the most 'at risk' group are intermediate collectors. Collectors who are beyond beginners and are looking to find the less common stamps but are not experts.

Yes, experts who really know their stuff can sometimes find great buys on eBay. But the slippery slope is our egos; we think we know enough but this leaves us highly venerable.

Good sellers know what quality material is worth and they list it as such. Searching for a stamp with 'lowest price first' is not a way to find good deals; doing this typically results in exposing yourself to some very questionable material and sellers.

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
30 Jan 2018
01:10:57am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

earwaves,

Regarding 315, the main reason 315 used is faked so commonly is this:

315 can easily be faked from 304. The stamp is real and the cancel is real, but the perforations are trimmed off. These stamps were printed on a flat plate press and 4% of them already had two natural straight edges. Another 36% had one straight edge. Simply find a stamp with big margins and one or two natural straight edges and it's easy to fake.

I did one myself (and wrote 304 on the back with a blue Sharpie):

Image Not Found

The reason these are so often fakes is 304 used catalogs for $2.25. It's not hard to pick one up for less than $1. If you can trick someone into thinking it's a $1250 stamp, that's a tempting payday for some folks.

Now look at 315 mint. $325 for MH is still pricey, but 304 MH is $60. That's a pretty big risk damaging a genuine 304 to MAYBE create a passable 315. And a MH 315 without a cert or a guarantee is probably worth about as much as a MH 304.

Lars

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angore

Collector, Moderator
30 Jan 2018
07:01:52am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

There is a comment about width but if I look at the stamp it appears to measure just under 22mm.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
c3a

30 Jan 2018
08:49:42am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Thanks, everyone. This has been a lot more interesting and educational than I expected.
Applause

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this post

jclectica.com
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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
30 Jan 2018
07:40:20pm

Approvals

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

The imperforate sheets of stamps from the Series of 1902 were produced by the USPOD to allow companies to work on the development of postage affixing and vending machines. Per my 1 Cent Ben Franklin stamp, over the years I've collected examples of all the listed private perforations. The only one of those I've seen on legitimate postal usage are the Shermack Type 3 perforations.

Image Not Found

I have examples of them on advertising mail, which were stamped by a Shermack affixing machine.

Image Not Found


I also have examples of railroad company post cards, probably from Shermack vending machines at railroad stations. This one appears to be a traveling salesman making appointments via postcard.

Other than that, every single 314 imperf stamp I've seen on cover has been a philatelic cover. Sheets of these stamps weren't sold at the normal post office. They were sold to manufacturers of equipment, and probably to stamp dealers of the time. I see them used on stamp dealer mail, and mail from known philatelists of the era. Some usage going all the way to the 1920s, so there was no doubt a surplus of these around hobby circles.

I once saw a cover with a stamp dealer corner card with three different private perforation pairs on it. It was posted in the 1920s. A dealer wanted a huge sum for it as a rare cover. I didn't want it for my collection because it did not represent legitimate usage.

Image Not Found

Out of era cover with Covel private perforations. The story was that collector Alvin Filstrop had Shermack make this variety for him. This is Scott unlisted and often mistaken for extremely rare Scott 318. There are tons of covers sent to and from Covel with interesting stamps on them. It appears Alvin included them as SASEs to business associates and kept them when returned through the mails.

Image Not Found

Here's a stamp dealer cover (Nassau Street was famous for stamp dealers) dated all the way to 1928, with a Shermack Type 3 private perf and an older stamp.



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pigdoc

31 Jan 2018
07:26:18am

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

VERY interesting, Tom!
THANKS!

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Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
05 Feb 2018
03:31:28pm

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Thanks BF1902

I wonder why private perfs are not priced in Scott's Specialized. Too easy to fake? Do the private perfs lower the value of them?

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
05 Feb 2018
09:09:47pm

Approvals

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

"I wonder why private perfs are not priced in Scott's Specialized. Too easy to fake? Do the private perfs lower the value of them?"



Scott's Specialized does list private perfs. They are in their own section, back of the book. Private perfs on Scott 314 are worth more than the basic stamp. The least valuable and most plentiful is the Shermack Type 3. I've paid a pretty penny for some of the others in my collection.

Like 
3 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
07 Feb 2018
02:48:43pm

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Anglophile,

I have been watching the Kelleher 315's. I'm glad I'm a collector who does not demand Never Hinged. Some of my album unused favorites have grungy remnants, but I never have to look at that side! Thanks for your advice about certificates.

Like
Login to Like
this post

Well, at least I got to have a haircut in the Penny Lane barber shop.
07 Feb 2018
02:53:38pm

re: Scott #315, 1902 5-cent Lincoln, Mint or Used?

Ben F,

Aha: "Imperforate flat plate coil stamps."

Thanks.

Like
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