Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Hi Tobben63,
Welcome to Stamporama.
As for writing on the backs of stamps; well, I do. Like you I write as lightly as possible with the softest pencil that will do the job.
Is it acceptable? The purists will say no. The realists will say it's no problem.
However, disturbing the gum on a stamp with an otherwise pristine, never hinged surface is frowned upon. Many people would not buy such a stamp.
Anyways, it's all about your collection, and your preference.
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It was common practice for many of the owners of the British Guiana One-Cent Magenta - which sold for $9.5 M a few years back - to write their initials on the back of the stamp 
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Welcome to Stamporama Tobben63. Writing lightly on the back of a used stamp with a soft lead pencil will be tolerated by some collectors, especially if it can be easily erased. However, writing on the back of a MNH stamp is a no no. Very few collectors will tolerate that. Also writing in ink on the back of a stamp generally destroys the trade or sale value of a stamp.
Jim
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I'd recommend against it.
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I keep common stamps that I'm not mounting on an album page in a manila stock sheet -- I write the catalog numbers in pencil on the sheet.
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I try to avoid buying stamps with pencil marks on the back, and avoid sellers who sell stamps without disclosing pencil marks on the back. Too often the marks are incorrect, or at least meaningless to me, and cannot be completely erased.
Josh
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Our collective lunacy for MNHOG (Mint Never-Hinged Original Gum) stamps dictates that we only mark the backs of stamps for which resale value is not a consideration.
You might consider that, as time goes on, you will know more about your stamps, so fewer of them will benefit from catalog numbers on the back.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Click the "LIKE" button if you believe that writing on the back of a stamp is forbidden.
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Click the "LIKE" button if you believe that writing on the back of a stamp is all right to do (within limits: no ink; not on mnh stamps).
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08:53:39pm
If the gods did not want you to be able to write on the back
of your stamps they would have printed some extra commandments thereon.
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Just to add something to the mix, I have found, on occasion, that someone has penciled the WRONG catalog number on the back of a stamp. And even after satisfying to yourself that it is so...there is always a sliver of doubt.
Cheers,
Eric
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I once bought a big discount postage lot which included a whole plate block collection where the previous owner had written the Scott catalog number in ink, on the front, in the selvage of each block.
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Lots of good response here, both for and against and I in doubt what to do.
But then I was thinking, I can test with my own stamp if the markings can be removed!
So here it is.
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I have one very expensive by catalog value Washington-Franklin issue which has the wrong catalog # written on its back. The correct stamp is about $500 CV and the cheap one is about 40 cents. I highly recommend NOT writing on the back of stamps.
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Some areas such as Romania 1890-1920 circa, Sweden 1870-1920, Denmark bi-colours, Swiss Rayons have several types or watermarks or perforations. Once I identify USED items I often mark the backs small & in pencil: 12x11, wmkI, ty8, etc to avoid the possibility of having to re-identify them again. Occasionally I may err and occasionally I buy an item that has errant markings, generally not and usually if it happens the vendor will accept return. It is easy to mix up similar looking items when working with duplication. Marking saves a lot of time! USED only!
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05:36:05pm
Auctions
Hate it...as a seller it kills the value..plus I rarely trust the writing, always check for myself..please dont write on the backs of your stamps. Someday you might want to sell your collection..
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09:16:13pm
" .... Once I identify USED items I often mark the backs small & in pencil: 12x11, wmkI, ty8, etc to avoid the possibility of having to re-identify them again. ...."
I usually do the same with both mint and used "unusual" Machins with Deegam numbers or codes.
As for selling, by then I expect I'll be in an urn on a shelf in the dark back corner of a closet, if I haven't been already sent for a cruise on the SS Tidy Bowl..
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My opinion on this is that it was once a common practice and it obviously devalues unused stamps. I don't really mind pencil on the back of used stamps as long as it doesn't cause any indentations. If there is already a marking on the stamp fine. I would not put any markings on stamps going forward. As other pointed out, I have found many stamps with the wrong catalog number or the number is from a catalog that you may not be using.
I've also mentioned this before in previous discussions about pencil markings. You cannot obtain a C3a (Inverted Jenny) without a pencil marking on the back. Stamp dealer Eugene Klein wrote the plate position on the back of each stamp. It is one of the ways to expertise the stamps.
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07:23:12pm
Referring tothe original inverted Jenny:
" ... Stamp dealer Eugene Klein wrote
the plate position on the back of each stamp.
It is one of the ways to expertise
the stamps. ..."
Thus ending the apparent all inclusive
blanket statements that such notations
allways devalue the stamps.
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I personally would not write on the back of a stamp.
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"Referring to the original inverted Jenny:
" ... Stamp dealer Eugene Klein wrote
the plate position on the back of each stamp.
It is one of the ways to expertise
the stamps. ..."
Thus ending the apparent all inclusive
blanket statements that such notations
always devalue the stamps."
Neat example but it doesn't convince me!
If you had an original inverted Jenny would you consider adding your pencil marking on the back in addition to Mr Klein's?
If you were offered two original copies, both with Mr Klein's markings but one of which also had someone else's pencil markings, would the additional markings make any difference to you in deciding which copy to buy (all else being equal)?
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I don't know why, but whenever the discussion of writing on the back of a stamp comes up, someone brings up the Inverted Jenny as if that justifies all writing on the backs of all stamps. I would consider the Inverted Jenny matter an exception, not the norm.
I'm in the process right now of tossing many stamps from an album that I bought (for the pages, not the stamps) where the pencil writing on the backs is visible from the front of the stamps, including on stamps that before they were written on were MNH.
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08:02:47pm
" .... If you were offered two original copies,
both with Mr. Klein's markings but one of which
also had someone else's pencil markings,
would the additional markings make any difference
to you in deciding which copy to buy (all else being equal)? ...."
Maybe, depending on the markings.
For instance someone's initials
might add to the provenence
by showing who had owned it,
along the way.
Or who had verified Klein's numbering.
In fact, it might add to the interest
and possibly the value.
That would apply to any high value stamp.
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"I don't know why, but whenever the discussion of writing on the back of a stamp comes up, someone brings up the Inverted Jenny as if that justifies all writing on the backs of all stamps. I would consider the Inverted Jenny matter an exception, not the norm."
There is no need to justify writing on the back of any stamps you own. Write away all you want if they are your stamps, no justification or explanation required. They may be harder to sell, but that should be obvious.
I occasionally write an ID on the back of (used) stamps, in pencil, when it is a particularly difficult issue to identify, e.g., because the cancel and stamp color is obscuring clear identification of a specialist watermark.
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"There is no need to justify writing on the back of any stamps you own. Write away all you want if they are your stamps, no justification or explanation required. They may be harder to sell, but that should be obvious.
"
Exactly!
If and until the time comes that you give up possession of that stamp, it is yours to do with whatever YOU want.
Do you maybe own a 1928 Duesenberg? Do you want to paint your name across the hood? You CAN, because its YOURS. YOU own it.
Understand?
Write whatever you like on the back of a stamp in your possession - it is your right to do so.
It is ALSO the right of a potential buyer of that stamp to refrain from buying it if they prefer NO markings on the backs of stamps they want to own.
Collectors: Collect stamps - and treat them - any way you like;
in your possession, you are free to do so.
Buyers: Buy stamps in any condition you prefer;
as a buyer, you are free to do so.
For me personally -
writing on stamps?
I have no opinion either way.
Painting your name across the hood of your Duesenberg?
YOU ARE NUTS - but its YOURS, so feel free...
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I post about the Inverted Jenny stamps because most people don't know it. I'm not justifying it just bringing it to people's attention. If you are going to be a hard-core no pencil person, you can't own a Jenny. I like used stamps so I would prefer the Z-Grill or the Penny Magenta stamps anyway.
My other point is, if it is used and already has a pencil marking, I don't mind. Please don't start adding pencil markings if they are not there. Similar to unused stamps. If it has the hinge mark ok. But if it is NH, don't add a hinge.
A little story...
Before my father passed away, I kind of got him into collecting Naval Covers. My dad was in the Navy 20 years was a bit of a historian and loved to write on things. All our pictures had dates and locations on them (which is great by the way). I told him when he started that if there were already markings on the envelope, do not try to remove them and DO NOT WRITE on the envelopes. That he should use index cards and write the ships history or whatever else he wanted on the card and keep it with the envelope. Well, after he passed away, I looked at his collection and most of his envelopes were marked up. I just had to laugh. Believe me, they were not worth anything before he wrote on them anyway. He just couldn't help himself, and as long as he enjoyed it, I'm fine with that.
Bob
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"...Write whatever you like on the back of a stamp in your possession - it is your right to do so..."
In my opinion having a ‘right to do something’ should not be confused with ‘something is right to do’. A person has the 'right' to protest war but it is not 'right' to protest war at the funeral of a fallen hero. In the same way a hobbyist has the 'right' to light cigars with his rare stamps if desired but that does not make it 'right'. Apples and oranges; one is ‘legal’ and the other is ‘ethical’. Laws never trump ethics. It was lawful to round up and murder Jews in 1939–1945 Germany but in no way was it ethical.
We are temporary stewards of the material we own and should have a sense of responsibility if our material is uncommon, relatively rare or unique. As such, we should practice proper care and maintenance of the items we possess.
I agree with some of the other opinions offered here. If the stamp/cover is cheap, printed in the billions, and your collection is probably going into the garbage after you pass; then have at it and write away. But otherwise please put pencil down.
Don
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"In my opinion having a ‘right to do something’ ... "
That's exactly my point. Ethics is a matter of opinion, law is not.
"We are temporary stewards of the material we own and should have a sense of responsibility if our material is uncommon, relatively rare or unique. As such, we should practice proper care and maintenance of the items we possess."
No offense intended, but again what you see as ethical responsibility is a matter of opinion. Not that I don't also have that opinion from time-to-time, but I wouldn't deign to foist it upon someone else, as if its one of Ayn Rand's mythical objective standards.
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"No offense intended, but again what you see as ethical responsibility is a matter of opinion. Not that I don't also have that opinion from time-to-time, but I wouldn't deign to foist it upon someone else, as if its one of Ayn Rand's mythical objective standards."
Opinion? I suppose that you could define the moral principles that govern our behavior as opinion.
But that is a very limited definition because we do not live isolated and by ourselves. We live in a society and I think that as such we need to have a sense of consideration for others and our heritage. Being good stewards of the material things we own, whether it is a stamp, artwork, or a piece of land means understanding that you are a part of something bigger. It means understanding your place in this world and the responsibilities that come along that. Can folks instead frame this topic as a mere opinion and act without regard for others? Yes, they can.
Writing on a stamp alters the state of the stamp. Period. This is not an opinion it is a fact. It is no different than storing your stamp in a damp basement or gluing them into a album with scotch tape. People can do whatever they want with their personal property including permanently altering them.
Don
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I do believe that this mole hill is becoming a mountain.
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If we come into possession of something with a value beyond us, we become responsible for that value.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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04:48:21am
I just came across this same issue tonight whilst working on Belgium. The main problem I have is Scott numbers change and with reprints, novices and even moderate collectors miss subtleties that end up having the wrong number on them. Particularly if a stamp is issued with different watermarks, die print differences, paper thickness, even perfs where there are some differences, particularly in compound perfs. I've come across at least 8 stamps that were mislabeled. And in taking apart an older collection, many number changes than listed on the pages as well as shades which changes the Scott number to a different number. I had one stamp that was labelled on the paper as one number and when I took a look at it, there were several shade differences, die differences, paper thickness, reprints and different perfs for this one particular stamp so the number on ther page was irrelevant and completely wrong.
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Okay, sounds like there is a big demand so I'll make an offer...
Send me all your sound stamps and I'll be happy to write a random number on the back of them. 5 cents each for pencil, 6 cents each for Sharpie. 
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For me, red ink or nothing!
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"But that is a very limited definition because we do not live isolated and by ourselves. We live in a society and I think that as such we need to have a sense of consideration for others and our heritage. Being good stewards of the material things we own, whether it is a stamp, artwork, or a piece of land means understanding that you are a part of something bigger. It means understanding your place in this world and the responsibilities that come along that. Can folks instead frame this topic as a mere opinion and act without regard for others? Yes, they can.
Writing on a stamp alters the state of the stamp. Period. This is not an opinion it is a fact. It is no different than storing your stamp in a damp basement or gluing them into a album with scotch tape. People can do whatever they want with their personal property including permanently altering them.
"
Again that is your opinion and simply asserting it does not convey duty or obligation upon anyone else. My opinion may be that altering the state of a stamp I own by writing on the back of it is my right as owner. I have no responsibility to anyone else at this point with regard to that stamp. Period. I don't have a responsibility for maintaining "our heritage" with respect to that stamp.
Nor do I have such an open-ended responsibility with respect to any other object some small portion of the society I live in might deem collectible or representative of our heritage, such as beany babies, baseball cards, music LPs, old board games, electric trains, antique furniture, etc.
That doesn't mean that I don't also believe that I should try to keep those things in good working order. In fact I do. But that's different than obligation or responsibility. That is my choice and always will be as long as its still legal.
Hence I write in pencil on the back of my stamps from time to time and I maintain that others may do so without the need to feel a twinge of guilt - that's their choice.
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"Writing on a stamp alters the state of the stamp. Period. This is not an opinion it is a fact. It is no different than storing your stamp in a damp basement or gluing them into a album with scotch tape. People can do whatever they want with their personal property including permanently altering them."
That is correct!
"I have no responsibility to anyone else at this point with regard to that stamp. Period.
Nor do I have such an open-ended responsibility with respect to any other object some small portion of the society I live in might deem collectible or representative of our heritage, such as beany babies, baseball cards, music LPs, old board games, electric trains, antique furniture, etc."
That is also correct!
The following is from Wikipedia;
"Stewardship is now generally recognized as the acceptance or assignment of responsibility to shepherd and safeguard the valuables of others"
Note that it says, "...valuables OF OTHERS..."
The items in our possession, whether they be stamps, baseball cards, or what have you are OURS.
They do not 'belong to' the society or the community we live in or even the world in general. WE AS INDIVIDUALS OWN THEM. They are our personal possessions.
And as such, we are free to do with them as we please!
NOW -
That being said, I am sure many of us will certainly refrain from writing on the backs of our stamps...for more than one reason, I'm sure.
Or using our 1952 Mantle card in our bike spokes...
...etc...etc...
The point here people, is that - being our OWN LEGAL PROPERTY, we can if we want to!
(God forbid the Mantle part!!!
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Property, shmoperty.
Whatever happened to "... a decent respect to the opinions of mankind ..."?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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While accepting the principle of ownership of property, consider.....
....we own said property only during our lifetime, and after that it is passed on to someone else by sale or gift or just dumping. In my opinion we are custodians of such property, and the responsible approach is to not degrade the item other than such degredation as occurs naturally through the passage of time. Every item, however common ( and not just in the field of philately ) is a historical artefact, and unless you destroy it completely, it has a value( however small) as an intellectual object.
My personal approach is that every undamaged stamp. however common, deserves to be preserved in the best way possible, just as if it were a penny black - and even damaged stamps are of interest - if that is the "normal" condition for the issue. After all the British Guiana 1c black on magenta is damaged ! It has to be said that the urge to preserve in original condition has to be the most important attribute of any collector of anything.
End of lecture ( gosh I can be smug sometimes can't I ?).
Malcolm
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Malcom,
Very well said sir. I don't totally agree or disagree, but I appreciate your argument. I assume we are talking about stamps that are beyond and above "vin ordinaire." Stamps of some value or interest. In which case moral obligation might come into play when contemplating writing on the back of said stamp. In which case I tend to agree with you as to your "preservation of the original" comment. On the other hand, and perhaps not apropos, I have a US #2 with an expertizers initials on the back (which I pray is not fake) -- that would tend me towards the profane practice. For the purpose of clarity.
Writing on the back of a perfectly good stamp, in most instances, seems tacky and not respectful of the stamp or the hobby.
I have spoken, Trash Heap.
aka Winedrinker
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Deut 22:1-3 (for those who take instruction from that source) requires that we return lost property.
But the folks who have codified laws from this same source allow that there is no obligation to return items of trivial value.
This is why I have no problem with common stamps being used for art projects; they are of such trivial value that you would not even have to pick them up off of the ground if you saw someone drop them so, clearly, you can paste the ones you own into mosaics.
But when we hold items with a cultural value beyond our narrow lives, we have an obligation - to a reasonable limit - to preserve it.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Yes I would say that using a common stamp for an art project would lie outside of my remit, as would "expertising marks" from a legitimate source.
However I would say that the original post refers to stamps in an ordinary "stamp collection", and as such remains within my remit.
There are several schools of thought on historical items, one is that the item should be kept in as found condition, one is that it should be treated so that further deterioration can be avoided, and one is that it should be restored to "as new" condition - and several stages between.
As in most philosophical arguments "it all depends". All are preferable to loss or destruction of the article, but some thought has to be given to the intended market that the item is to be displayed to, and the environment where the item is to be shown.
One field in which I have an interest is the preservation of old buses. There are numerous examples of the standard 1950's red London bus in private ownership -all in original London Transport condition. Many of these passed through several smaller company ownership in their life before being saved - yet none of these buses are "shown" in the colours of their later owners. At a bus rally, a row of identical buses looks a little boring, one of these buses painted up in its later colours would be interesting. Both approaches are quite legitimate as showing the vehicle as it was at some stage during it's working life.In some cases ( although not in the London example given) vehicles were modified during their time with a later owner and is still shown in original livery. In addition many interesting older representative vehicles are have been lost so that people can add yet another London "RT" to those saved
What as this got to do with stamps? Well you could say that a stamp on cover is original, a stamp on piece with postmark equates to life with a subsequent owner and a stamp off piece is one step further down the line, and a stamp which has been deliberately vnadalised is not fit for purpose ( as a collectable, but it may be useful for some other purpose).
I realise that I may be a bit picky, but as well as being a stamp nut I am interested in all things historical, and perhaps I take a broader view than many.
I do agree though about the difference between law and ethics. I find it strange though that one would wish to collect something and then destroy it's integrity ( word used in it's original context).
Malcolm
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Interesting, I purchased an album off ebay and the owner wrote on the back of every single stamp with a pencil. Most were inexpensive already hinged stamps so not big deal and appears to be easy to remove.
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I don't like writing on my stamps--I tolerate it on used stamps, but I will not put a "MNH" stamp into my albums that has writing on the back. To me, it is no longer MNH.
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I think it boils down to 'disposition'.
For example, we can do whatever we like to our own house, paint the walls black or put a huge rattlesnake pit in the middle of the living room floor. It is our house, we can mostly (as per zoning laws) do what we want.
But good luck when you go to sell the house, you may find some folks who would be willing to buy your snake pit house but without question you will have limited the total number of people and/or price that others will pay you for the house.
So the one fact that we can take away from this thread is that if we write on the back of our stamps we will be negatively impacting our ability to disposition them, we have altered the value. If folks do not care about ever dispositioning their stamps, then writing on them does not matter.
And experts will tell you that even pencil marks are permanent, the paper is altered when you press down on it to write. Additionally many, many stamps have been trashed by people trying to erase pencil marks on stamps. It is very dicey to try to hold a stamp and work an eraser; best to just leave the writing on the stamp then try to remove it.
Don
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Some resources:
... an earlier SOR thread on pencil markings
... still my new best friend: the Sakura SE2000 Battery Operated Eraser
... my note on the physics of erasure
Continuing Don's thought:
- evaluate a stamp before you attempt erasure;
- thinner, coarser paper will not do well;
- pencil marks heavy enough to show on the front will not happily disappear from the back; and,
- practice on cheap stamps before you decide that you can obey Rule #1, eg, properly evaluate a stamp before you attempt erasure.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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09:51:40pm
" ....we own said property only during our lifetime, and after that it is passed on to someone else by sale or gift or just dumping. In my opinion we are custodians of such property, ..."
Relying on this kind of advice, I have been sleeping on the floor, using a thick blanket because a few months ago, my son bought one of those fancy beds that can be raised, at the head or the foot, or both together. But mostly there is an expensive Memory Foam mattress to go with the bed itself. I am trying to be a good steward preserving it without any wear or tear so it can be passed on to posterity; virginal, so to speak.
The only problem is my back is getting sore from the hard tiles.
File under:: "Reductio ad absurdum"
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Thank you for that, Charlie!
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Charlie
I consider myself duly chastised ! I should know better than to leave myself open to your deliberate misunderstanding of what I meant - however I deserved it - guilty as charged of pomposity !!
Malcolm
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Is it ok to write with a fine soft graphite pencil on back of the stamps. The cat number and so?
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01:07:27pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
Hi Tobben63,
Welcome to Stamporama.
As for writing on the backs of stamps; well, I do. Like you I write as lightly as possible with the softest pencil that will do the job.
Is it acceptable? The purists will say no. The realists will say it's no problem.
However, disturbing the gum on a stamp with an otherwise pristine, never hinged surface is frowned upon. Many people would not buy such a stamp.
Anyways, it's all about your collection, and your preference.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
It was common practice for many of the owners of the British Guiana One-Cent Magenta - which sold for $9.5 M a few years back - to write their initials on the back of the stamp
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Welcome to Stamporama Tobben63. Writing lightly on the back of a used stamp with a soft lead pencil will be tolerated by some collectors, especially if it can be easily erased. However, writing on the back of a MNH stamp is a no no. Very few collectors will tolerate that. Also writing in ink on the back of a stamp generally destroys the trade or sale value of a stamp.
Jim
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I'd recommend against it.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I keep common stamps that I'm not mounting on an album page in a manila stock sheet -- I write the catalog numbers in pencil on the sheet.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I try to avoid buying stamps with pencil marks on the back, and avoid sellers who sell stamps without disclosing pencil marks on the back. Too often the marks are incorrect, or at least meaningless to me, and cannot be completely erased.
Josh
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Our collective lunacy for MNHOG (Mint Never-Hinged Original Gum) stamps dictates that we only mark the backs of stamps for which resale value is not a consideration.
You might consider that, as time goes on, you will know more about your stamps, so fewer of them will benefit from catalog numbers on the back.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Click the "LIKE" button if you believe that writing on the back of a stamp is forbidden.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Click the "LIKE" button if you believe that writing on the back of a stamp is all right to do (within limits: no ink; not on mnh stamps).
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
28 Apr 2018
08:53:39pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
If the gods did not want you to be able to write on the back
of your stamps they would have printed some extra commandments thereon.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Just to add something to the mix, I have found, on occasion, that someone has penciled the WRONG catalog number on the back of a stamp. And even after satisfying to yourself that it is so...there is always a sliver of doubt.
Cheers,
Eric
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I once bought a big discount postage lot which included a whole plate block collection where the previous owner had written the Scott catalog number in ink, on the front, in the selvage of each block.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Lots of good response here, both for and against and I in doubt what to do.
But then I was thinking, I can test with my own stamp if the markings can be removed!
So here it is.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I have one very expensive by catalog value Washington-Franklin issue which has the wrong catalog # written on its back. The correct stamp is about $500 CV and the cheap one is about 40 cents. I highly recommend NOT writing on the back of stamps.
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04:08:55am
re: Write on back side of the stamp
Some areas such as Romania 1890-1920 circa, Sweden 1870-1920, Denmark bi-colours, Swiss Rayons have several types or watermarks or perforations. Once I identify USED items I often mark the backs small & in pencil: 12x11, wmkI, ty8, etc to avoid the possibility of having to re-identify them again. Occasionally I may err and occasionally I buy an item that has errant markings, generally not and usually if it happens the vendor will accept return. It is easy to mix up similar looking items when working with duplication. Marking saves a lot of time! USED only!
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IPDA Chairman, Scaramento Philatelic Society #2112-vice president, ISWWSC #2966, Iran philatelic study circle, US Army Veteran, Grandfather of 6, stamp collector/seller!
30 Apr 2018
05:36:05pm
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Hate it...as a seller it kills the value..plus I rarely trust the writing, always check for myself..please dont write on the backs of your stamps. Someday you might want to sell your collection..
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 May 2018
09:16:13pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
" .... Once I identify USED items I often mark the backs small & in pencil: 12x11, wmkI, ty8, etc to avoid the possibility of having to re-identify them again. ...."
I usually do the same with both mint and used "unusual" Machins with Deegam numbers or codes.
As for selling, by then I expect I'll be in an urn on a shelf in the dark back corner of a closet, if I haven't been already sent for a cruise on the SS Tidy Bowl..
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
02 May 2018
01:31:55pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
My opinion on this is that it was once a common practice and it obviously devalues unused stamps. I don't really mind pencil on the back of used stamps as long as it doesn't cause any indentations. If there is already a marking on the stamp fine. I would not put any markings on stamps going forward. As other pointed out, I have found many stamps with the wrong catalog number or the number is from a catalog that you may not be using.
I've also mentioned this before in previous discussions about pencil markings. You cannot obtain a C3a (Inverted Jenny) without a pencil marking on the back. Stamp dealer Eugene Klein wrote the plate position on the back of each stamp. It is one of the ways to expertise the stamps.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
02 May 2018
07:23:12pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
Referring tothe original inverted Jenny:
" ... Stamp dealer Eugene Klein wrote
the plate position on the back of each stamp.
It is one of the ways to expertise
the stamps. ..."
Thus ending the apparent all inclusive
blanket statements that such notations
allways devalue the stamps.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I personally would not write on the back of a stamp.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"Referring to the original inverted Jenny:
" ... Stamp dealer Eugene Klein wrote
the plate position on the back of each stamp.
It is one of the ways to expertise
the stamps. ..."
Thus ending the apparent all inclusive
blanket statements that such notations
always devalue the stamps."
Neat example but it doesn't convince me!
If you had an original inverted Jenny would you consider adding your pencil marking on the back in addition to Mr Klein's?
If you were offered two original copies, both with Mr Klein's markings but one of which also had someone else's pencil markings, would the additional markings make any difference to you in deciding which copy to buy (all else being equal)?
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I don't know why, but whenever the discussion of writing on the back of a stamp comes up, someone brings up the Inverted Jenny as if that justifies all writing on the backs of all stamps. I would consider the Inverted Jenny matter an exception, not the norm.
I'm in the process right now of tossing many stamps from an album that I bought (for the pages, not the stamps) where the pencil writing on the backs is visible from the front of the stamps, including on stamps that before they were written on were MNH.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
03 May 2018
08:02:47pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
" .... If you were offered two original copies,
both with Mr. Klein's markings but one of which
also had someone else's pencil markings,
would the additional markings make any difference
to you in deciding which copy to buy (all else being equal)? ...."
Maybe, depending on the markings.
For instance someone's initials
might add to the provenence
by showing who had owned it,
along the way.
Or who had verified Klein's numbering.
In fact, it might add to the interest
and possibly the value.
That would apply to any high value stamp.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"I don't know why, but whenever the discussion of writing on the back of a stamp comes up, someone brings up the Inverted Jenny as if that justifies all writing on the backs of all stamps. I would consider the Inverted Jenny matter an exception, not the norm."
There is no need to justify writing on the back of any stamps you own. Write away all you want if they are your stamps, no justification or explanation required. They may be harder to sell, but that should be obvious.
I occasionally write an ID on the back of (used) stamps, in pencil, when it is a particularly difficult issue to identify, e.g., because the cancel and stamp color is obscuring clear identification of a specialist watermark.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"There is no need to justify writing on the back of any stamps you own. Write away all you want if they are your stamps, no justification or explanation required. They may be harder to sell, but that should be obvious.
"
Exactly!
If and until the time comes that you give up possession of that stamp, it is yours to do with whatever YOU want.
Do you maybe own a 1928 Duesenberg? Do you want to paint your name across the hood? You CAN, because its YOURS. YOU own it.
Understand?
Write whatever you like on the back of a stamp in your possession - it is your right to do so.
It is ALSO the right of a potential buyer of that stamp to refrain from buying it if they prefer NO markings on the backs of stamps they want to own.
Collectors: Collect stamps - and treat them - any way you like;
in your possession, you are free to do so.
Buyers: Buy stamps in any condition you prefer;
as a buyer, you are free to do so.
For me personally -
writing on stamps?
I have no opinion either way.
Painting your name across the hood of your Duesenberg?
YOU ARE NUTS - but its YOURS, so feel free...
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
07 May 2018
01:24:45pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
I post about the Inverted Jenny stamps because most people don't know it. I'm not justifying it just bringing it to people's attention. If you are going to be a hard-core no pencil person, you can't own a Jenny. I like used stamps so I would prefer the Z-Grill or the Penny Magenta stamps anyway.
My other point is, if it is used and already has a pencil marking, I don't mind. Please don't start adding pencil markings if they are not there. Similar to unused stamps. If it has the hinge mark ok. But if it is NH, don't add a hinge.
A little story...
Before my father passed away, I kind of got him into collecting Naval Covers. My dad was in the Navy 20 years was a bit of a historian and loved to write on things. All our pictures had dates and locations on them (which is great by the way). I told him when he started that if there were already markings on the envelope, do not try to remove them and DO NOT WRITE on the envelopes. That he should use index cards and write the ships history or whatever else he wanted on the card and keep it with the envelope. Well, after he passed away, I looked at his collection and most of his envelopes were marked up. I just had to laugh. Believe me, they were not worth anything before he wrote on them anyway. He just couldn't help himself, and as long as he enjoyed it, I'm fine with that.
Bob
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"...Write whatever you like on the back of a stamp in your possession - it is your right to do so..."
In my opinion having a ‘right to do something’ should not be confused with ‘something is right to do’. A person has the 'right' to protest war but it is not 'right' to protest war at the funeral of a fallen hero. In the same way a hobbyist has the 'right' to light cigars with his rare stamps if desired but that does not make it 'right'. Apples and oranges; one is ‘legal’ and the other is ‘ethical’. Laws never trump ethics. It was lawful to round up and murder Jews in 1939–1945 Germany but in no way was it ethical.
We are temporary stewards of the material we own and should have a sense of responsibility if our material is uncommon, relatively rare or unique. As such, we should practice proper care and maintenance of the items we possess.
I agree with some of the other opinions offered here. If the stamp/cover is cheap, printed in the billions, and your collection is probably going into the garbage after you pass; then have at it and write away. But otherwise please put pencil down.
Don
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"In my opinion having a ‘right to do something’ ... "
That's exactly my point. Ethics is a matter of opinion, law is not.
"We are temporary stewards of the material we own and should have a sense of responsibility if our material is uncommon, relatively rare or unique. As such, we should practice proper care and maintenance of the items we possess."
No offense intended, but again what you see as ethical responsibility is a matter of opinion. Not that I don't also have that opinion from time-to-time, but I wouldn't deign to foist it upon someone else, as if its one of Ayn Rand's mythical objective standards.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"No offense intended, but again what you see as ethical responsibility is a matter of opinion. Not that I don't also have that opinion from time-to-time, but I wouldn't deign to foist it upon someone else, as if its one of Ayn Rand's mythical objective standards."
Opinion? I suppose that you could define the moral principles that govern our behavior as opinion.
But that is a very limited definition because we do not live isolated and by ourselves. We live in a society and I think that as such we need to have a sense of consideration for others and our heritage. Being good stewards of the material things we own, whether it is a stamp, artwork, or a piece of land means understanding that you are a part of something bigger. It means understanding your place in this world and the responsibilities that come along that. Can folks instead frame this topic as a mere opinion and act without regard for others? Yes, they can.
Writing on a stamp alters the state of the stamp. Period. This is not an opinion it is a fact. It is no different than storing your stamp in a damp basement or gluing them into a album with scotch tape. People can do whatever they want with their personal property including permanently altering them.
Don
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08:06:42pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
I do believe that this mole hill is becoming a mountain.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
If we come into possession of something with a value beyond us, we become responsible for that value.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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08 May 2018
04:48:21am
re: Write on back side of the stamp
I just came across this same issue tonight whilst working on Belgium. The main problem I have is Scott numbers change and with reprints, novices and even moderate collectors miss subtleties that end up having the wrong number on them. Particularly if a stamp is issued with different watermarks, die print differences, paper thickness, even perfs where there are some differences, particularly in compound perfs. I've come across at least 8 stamps that were mislabeled. And in taking apart an older collection, many number changes than listed on the pages as well as shades which changes the Scott number to a different number. I had one stamp that was labelled on the paper as one number and when I took a look at it, there were several shade differences, die differences, paper thickness, reprints and different perfs for this one particular stamp so the number on ther page was irrelevant and completely wrong.
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Approvals
re: Write on back side of the stamp
Okay, sounds like there is a big demand so I'll make an offer...
Send me all your sound stamps and I'll be happy to write a random number on the back of them. 5 cents each for pencil, 6 cents each for Sharpie.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
For me, red ink or nothing!
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"But that is a very limited definition because we do not live isolated and by ourselves. We live in a society and I think that as such we need to have a sense of consideration for others and our heritage. Being good stewards of the material things we own, whether it is a stamp, artwork, or a piece of land means understanding that you are a part of something bigger. It means understanding your place in this world and the responsibilities that come along that. Can folks instead frame this topic as a mere opinion and act without regard for others? Yes, they can.
Writing on a stamp alters the state of the stamp. Period. This is not an opinion it is a fact. It is no different than storing your stamp in a damp basement or gluing them into a album with scotch tape. People can do whatever they want with their personal property including permanently altering them.
"
Again that is your opinion and simply asserting it does not convey duty or obligation upon anyone else. My opinion may be that altering the state of a stamp I own by writing on the back of it is my right as owner. I have no responsibility to anyone else at this point with regard to that stamp. Period. I don't have a responsibility for maintaining "our heritage" with respect to that stamp.
Nor do I have such an open-ended responsibility with respect to any other object some small portion of the society I live in might deem collectible or representative of our heritage, such as beany babies, baseball cards, music LPs, old board games, electric trains, antique furniture, etc.
That doesn't mean that I don't also believe that I should try to keep those things in good working order. In fact I do. But that's different than obligation or responsibility. That is my choice and always will be as long as its still legal.
Hence I write in pencil on the back of my stamps from time to time and I maintain that others may do so without the need to feel a twinge of guilt - that's their choice.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
"Writing on a stamp alters the state of the stamp. Period. This is not an opinion it is a fact. It is no different than storing your stamp in a damp basement or gluing them into a album with scotch tape. People can do whatever they want with their personal property including permanently altering them."
That is correct!
"I have no responsibility to anyone else at this point with regard to that stamp. Period.
Nor do I have such an open-ended responsibility with respect to any other object some small portion of the society I live in might deem collectible or representative of our heritage, such as beany babies, baseball cards, music LPs, old board games, electric trains, antique furniture, etc."
That is also correct!
The following is from Wikipedia;
"Stewardship is now generally recognized as the acceptance or assignment of responsibility to shepherd and safeguard the valuables of others"
Note that it says, "...valuables OF OTHERS..."
The items in our possession, whether they be stamps, baseball cards, or what have you are OURS.
They do not 'belong to' the society or the community we live in or even the world in general. WE AS INDIVIDUALS OWN THEM. They are our personal possessions.
And as such, we are free to do with them as we please!
NOW -
That being said, I am sure many of us will certainly refrain from writing on the backs of our stamps...for more than one reason, I'm sure.
Or using our 1952 Mantle card in our bike spokes...
...etc...etc...
The point here people, is that - being our OWN LEGAL PROPERTY, we can if we want to!
(God forbid the Mantle part!!!
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Property, shmoperty.
Whatever happened to "... a decent respect to the opinions of mankind ..."?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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01:25:03pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
While accepting the principle of ownership of property, consider.....
....we own said property only during our lifetime, and after that it is passed on to someone else by sale or gift or just dumping. In my opinion we are custodians of such property, and the responsible approach is to not degrade the item other than such degredation as occurs naturally through the passage of time. Every item, however common ( and not just in the field of philately ) is a historical artefact, and unless you destroy it completely, it has a value( however small) as an intellectual object.
My personal approach is that every undamaged stamp. however common, deserves to be preserved in the best way possible, just as if it were a penny black - and even damaged stamps are of interest - if that is the "normal" condition for the issue. After all the British Guiana 1c black on magenta is damaged ! It has to be said that the urge to preserve in original condition has to be the most important attribute of any collector of anything.
End of lecture ( gosh I can be smug sometimes can't I ?).
Malcolm
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Malcom,
Very well said sir. I don't totally agree or disagree, but I appreciate your argument. I assume we are talking about stamps that are beyond and above "vin ordinaire." Stamps of some value or interest. In which case moral obligation might come into play when contemplating writing on the back of said stamp. In which case I tend to agree with you as to your "preservation of the original" comment. On the other hand, and perhaps not apropos, I have a US #2 with an expertizers initials on the back (which I pray is not fake) -- that would tend me towards the profane practice. For the purpose of clarity.
Writing on the back of a perfectly good stamp, in most instances, seems tacky and not respectful of the stamp or the hobby.
I have spoken, Trash Heap.
aka Winedrinker
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Deut 22:1-3 (for those who take instruction from that source) requires that we return lost property.
But the folks who have codified laws from this same source allow that there is no obligation to return items of trivial value.
This is why I have no problem with common stamps being used for art projects; they are of such trivial value that you would not even have to pick them up off of the ground if you saw someone drop them so, clearly, you can paste the ones you own into mosaics.
But when we hold items with a cultural value beyond our narrow lives, we have an obligation - to a reasonable limit - to preserve it.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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07:11:38am
re: Write on back side of the stamp
Yes I would say that using a common stamp for an art project would lie outside of my remit, as would "expertising marks" from a legitimate source.
However I would say that the original post refers to stamps in an ordinary "stamp collection", and as such remains within my remit.
There are several schools of thought on historical items, one is that the item should be kept in as found condition, one is that it should be treated so that further deterioration can be avoided, and one is that it should be restored to "as new" condition - and several stages between.
As in most philosophical arguments "it all depends". All are preferable to loss or destruction of the article, but some thought has to be given to the intended market that the item is to be displayed to, and the environment where the item is to be shown.
One field in which I have an interest is the preservation of old buses. There are numerous examples of the standard 1950's red London bus in private ownership -all in original London Transport condition. Many of these passed through several smaller company ownership in their life before being saved - yet none of these buses are "shown" in the colours of their later owners. At a bus rally, a row of identical buses looks a little boring, one of these buses painted up in its later colours would be interesting. Both approaches are quite legitimate as showing the vehicle as it was at some stage during it's working life.In some cases ( although not in the London example given) vehicles were modified during their time with a later owner and is still shown in original livery. In addition many interesting older representative vehicles are have been lost so that people can add yet another London "RT" to those saved
What as this got to do with stamps? Well you could say that a stamp on cover is original, a stamp on piece with postmark equates to life with a subsequent owner and a stamp off piece is one step further down the line, and a stamp which has been deliberately vnadalised is not fit for purpose ( as a collectable, but it may be useful for some other purpose).
I realise that I may be a bit picky, but as well as being a stamp nut I am interested in all things historical, and perhaps I take a broader view than many.
I do agree though about the difference between law and ethics. I find it strange though that one would wish to collect something and then destroy it's integrity ( word used in it's original context).
Malcolm
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Interesting, I purchased an album off ebay and the owner wrote on the back of every single stamp with a pencil. Most were inexpensive already hinged stamps so not big deal and appears to be easy to remove.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I don't like writing on my stamps--I tolerate it on used stamps, but I will not put a "MNH" stamp into my albums that has writing on the back. To me, it is no longer MNH.
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
I think it boils down to 'disposition'.
For example, we can do whatever we like to our own house, paint the walls black or put a huge rattlesnake pit in the middle of the living room floor. It is our house, we can mostly (as per zoning laws) do what we want.
But good luck when you go to sell the house, you may find some folks who would be willing to buy your snake pit house but without question you will have limited the total number of people and/or price that others will pay you for the house.
So the one fact that we can take away from this thread is that if we write on the back of our stamps we will be negatively impacting our ability to disposition them, we have altered the value. If folks do not care about ever dispositioning their stamps, then writing on them does not matter.
And experts will tell you that even pencil marks are permanent, the paper is altered when you press down on it to write. Additionally many, many stamps have been trashed by people trying to erase pencil marks on stamps. It is very dicey to try to hold a stamp and work an eraser; best to just leave the writing on the stamp then try to remove it.
Don
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Some resources:
... an earlier SOR thread on pencil markings
... still my new best friend: the Sakura SE2000 Battery Operated Eraser
... my note on the physics of erasure
Continuing Don's thought:
- evaluate a stamp before you attempt erasure;
- thinner, coarser paper will not do well;
- pencil marks heavy enough to show on the front will not happily disappear from the back; and,
- practice on cheap stamps before you decide that you can obey Rule #1, eg, properly evaluate a stamp before you attempt erasure.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
07 Jun 2018
09:51:40pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
" ....we own said property only during our lifetime, and after that it is passed on to someone else by sale or gift or just dumping. In my opinion we are custodians of such property, ..."
Relying on this kind of advice, I have been sleeping on the floor, using a thick blanket because a few months ago, my son bought one of those fancy beds that can be raised, at the head or the foot, or both together. But mostly there is an expensive Memory Foam mattress to go with the bed itself. I am trying to be a good steward preserving it without any wear or tear so it can be passed on to posterity; virginal, so to speak.
The only problem is my back is getting sore from the hard tiles.
File under:: "Reductio ad absurdum"
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re: Write on back side of the stamp
Thank you for that, Charlie!
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05:39:35pm
re: Write on back side of the stamp
Charlie
I consider myself duly chastised ! I should know better than to leave myself open to your deliberate misunderstanding of what I meant - however I deserved it - guilty as charged of pomposity !!
Malcolm
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