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What we collect!
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General Philatelic/Gen. Discussion : honesty on Ebay

 

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GMOUKEH

04 May 2018
02:15:31pm
in the last 6 months, I have noticed many issues about seller on Ebay.
* one seller on bidding put the same items after 1 hour of losing it with difference of less than 0.5 $ in last seconds for 3 items???
* yesterday 2 items for same seller lost the bidding with less than 0.25 $ with same fixed price 11 $ for both from different bidder ?!?!?!?!
*since 3 months I have bought book "United Nations Philately" edited by Arleigh Gaines by 35$ and paid 81 for shipping, when i examine it after delivery, about 30 % of pages were lost and scattered through 2000 pages, no chapter is complete, I send to seller asking about that, he ignore even simple response?? Image Not Found

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michael78651
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04 May 2018
02:36:35pm
re: honesty on Ebay

If you're not satisfied with a transaction on Ebay, file a dispute through Ebay. If you think a seller on Ebay is not honest, file a report with Ebay. There's nothing we can do about it here.

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Guthrum
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04 May 2018
04:10:35pm
re: honesty on Ebay

I suspect Ghamez is looking for sympathy rather than advice, Michael. What chance has he in filing a dispute with Ebay? (If that works anything like Delcampe, I fear very little.) There may be others in SOR who have had success in filing disputes with Ebay - if so, no doubt Ghamez would like to hear from them.

That said, caveat emptor always applies with online marts, and it may be that he has wasted his money this time. Perhaps dealing and trading with SOR members would be a better bet for him in future.

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rjan
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04 May 2018
04:17:12pm
re: honesty on Ebay

I remain active on eBay but only with specific vendors. My current favorite guarantees return for any good reason. I have taken advantage on up to 20% of my purchases for hidden flaws; mostly rips etc under adhered paper. There has never been a reserve on issuing full return credit.

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Soundcrest
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04 May 2018
05:44:15pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: honesty on Ebay

I have been selling on ebay since 1997. I can tell you flat out one of my problems with them is the seller is ALWAYS wrong. An incomplete book certainly should give the buyer his money back. In 20+ years have many stories about buyers, because actually as a seller there is little you can do to disprove a claim made against you, even if you as a seller are right. File a claim by all means!

Greg

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

04 May 2018
07:07:33pm
re: honesty on Ebay

Greg, "The seller is always wrong" Well said! That and Ebay not allowing sellers to leave negative feedback were the things that finally turned me away from Ebay. There are just as many dishonest buyers as there are sellers.
I once sold a rear spoiler on Ebay to a guy who fled a complaint that he never had received.
All of my paper work was in order but that would have made no difference. The only reason I got my money back is that the buyer had left me glowing feedback about the spoiler he obviously received. It only took Ebay three weeks to refund my money after the saw the feedback.

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dani20
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04 May 2018
07:27:19pm
re: honesty on Ebay

Wouldn't paying with Paypal take care of some of these issues?
Dan C.

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jbaxter5256
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04 May 2018
11:53:52pm
re: honesty on Ebay

I've made over two hundred purchases on eBay in the past twelve months and only had two issues where refunds were needed by the seller (one item was never received and one item had the wrong stamp in the envelope, for the last, the seller got two orders mixed up). One additional item was damaged during shipping due to dampness which resulted in one absolutely beautiful Canada 122 in mint condition arriving stuck to a dealer card. Actually it was so nice that I floated it off the dealer card and kept it anyway. The vendor offered a refund for the price paid but given the bid cost to me I elected to refuse the refund as it really wasn't the seller's fault although I did suggest that in the future he consider putting mint stamps in water impermeable bags when shipping to the Northwest during the somewhat painfully wet winter months.

Another four items I considered disappointing and not really worth the price paid: two because the seller essentially hid issues by presenting photographs only with no text mention of flaws that significantly impacted the value of the offering, one because a shrink wrapped original album had an enclosed newsprint enclosure between the pages of a beginner album that had caused damage to the pages, and one because an Internatioal Part II album only covered the period 1941 to 1946 because it was copyright 1947.

I have noticed a pattern of a couple of well-known, high volume sellers who have a tendency to see very high run ups in auction prices in the last seconds of an auction and, often, either misrepresented or inadequately described auction items. Yet often they seem to have an unusually high volumes of sales. It is most frustrating that eBay does NOT allow any negative postings about their sales practices or even issues with a given lot. I do occasionally still bid on their offerings but have become a lot more careful about my review of their offerings as you can never assume that their pictured items are representative of the collection and that any other items not pictured exist at all in an album in particular.

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jbaxter5256
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05 May 2018
12:11:09am
re: honesty on Ebay

I have also made several purchases on Stamporama and have been quite pleased with the costs in general and the condition of stamps in particular. I particularly like sellers who include Country, Scott #, year of issue, and explicit mention of used, MNG, MNH,MH, or MLH condition on their offerings. I have only had a couple of cases where postage costs rather overwhelmed the value of the stamp offering received due to either a quick invoice or just high costs to get the item delivered from overseas where I was unable to find items to combine in a single shipment that were being offered.

I have even bought a single stamp for well under a dollar and happily paid $2 for shipping because it was the last mint stamp I needed to complete Canada Officials in mint condition.

I have also bought duplicates of a stamp offering because of not keeping track of what I have already purchased from the same or other sellers adequately. I am working on doing a better job of keeping track of in process orders and received stamps that haven't been put in albums to combat this particular issue. Silly

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BenFranklin1902
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Tom in Exton, PA

05 May 2018
11:03:07am

Approvals
re: honesty on Ebay

"I have noticed a pattern of a couple of well-known, high volume sellers who have a tendency to see very high run ups in auction prices in the last seconds of an auction and, often, either misrepresented or inadequately described auction items. Yet often they seem to have an unusually high volumes of sales. It is most frustrating that eBay does NOT allow any negative postings about their sales practices or even issues with a given lot. "



I have been a buyer on eBay since it's inception. I have never experienced outright fraud. There were times when I received things that were misidentified or the condition overstated. Those were always corrected to my satisfaction.

I believe I know the sellers you mention. I have bought from them as well, those who just put a photo of front and a flat photo of the reverse side that doesn't show the multiple hinging etc. For the fact that their stuff sells for high numbers alone, I've shifted to looking up the same stamps from smaller sellers. I'm able to find reliable people who describe stamps well, and their bids don't go wacky.

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

05 May 2018
01:06:48pm
re: honesty on Ebay

If you are a collector who buys from eBay sellers like Anthony’s or Nystamps; then you have purchased mis-identified and/or altered stamps. If you are a collector who has purchased a US #315 or any of the uncommon Washington/Franklin coils stamps on eBay; then you have purchased mis-identified and/or altered stamps. A full 95% of all US #315 on eBay are not #315s. At least 80% of all US Washington/Franklin coils are not as listed. Many collectors simply buy these stamps, mount them in their albums, and then feel good about the ‘deal’ they think they got. This is why many people think/say they are doing fine on eBay. But before telling other folks that eBay is great, try sending some of the stuff in for certification.

And it is not just US material. For example, a very large percentage amount of higher value British Commonwealth stamps found on eBay have been washed with faked postal cancels added. If you talk to the experts who certify stamps, they will tell you how stamp after stamp they see from eBay is not what the buyer thought it was; what ‘saves’ most collectors is they do not get expert opinions on what they buy. It will be up their heirs or family members to get the bad news one day when the collection is sold.

eBay is fine if you are dealing with low value material and buying with your enjoyment in mind. But anyone who is trying to build a quality collection, especially intermediate to advanced collectors looking to ‘fill holes’; eBay is a total minefield.

The issue is that far too many people start by searching on eBay with ‘lowest to highest’ price; this is what the bad sellers count on. They know they can count on our egos, that we feel we can find the ‘good deals’. But the truth is a good seller knows exactly what quality stamps sells for and has little incentive to start a listing far below market value. If you had a great, quality stamp that has a market value of $100 (having verified that similar stamps have recently sold for this amount), would you start it as an auction listing at 99 cents?

I do not fault eBay. The key part of eBay’s business model is that they understood what had to be done to get people to buy stuff sight unseen. What person in their right mind buys used things without seeing them other than an image(s) and description supplied by the seller? If you are buying a new DVD or other commodity item, then being able to see the item is not as important. But ‘condition’ makes a huge difference when buying used things.

So eBay needed a marketing strategy which gave buyers a level of confidence to buy stuff sight unseen; they developed Terms and Conditions which favored buyers. They developed an incredibly stupid and inane ‘Rating System’ so that buyers would feel ok with sending money to some unknown seller half way around the world. They backup most buyer claims as long as they can snatch the money back from the seller’s account. But just try to get your money back from eBay if the seller closes his account. If it is for a few bucks eBay will eat it but they certainly will NOT if the amount is significant. And of course eBay quickly removes any negative feedbacks from the prefer sellers upon request. (Does anyone really think it is possible to have thousands of transaction without a single complaint? Doh.)

There is an entire 3rd party industry which sells existing eBay accounts with perfect ratings. There are books and websites which encourages convicted felons to buy these existing accounts and set up ‘businesses’. Stamp sellers like the British Cartel person typically has 40-50+ eBay accounts; each with separate bank accounts and identities. When he gets enough faked/fraudulent/mis-identified material and returns requests against one account; he closes it and moved on. eBay cannot chase people around, they simply do not refund the buyer(s).

eBay will never, ever properly vet accounts, they have no way to do this without huge expenses. Banks do not even properly vet people, you can walk in with one or two marginal forms of ID and some cash and open an account. And of course no matter how much they might police things, there will always be new scam artists and frauds to take advantage of other folks.

So the only real defense is to counter the massive eBay brainwashing marketing is with education. Of course we all know we should be educated on the stamp and covers we buy. But online buying DEMANDS that we also be educated on WHO we are buying from; you simply cannot rely upon eBay or its worthless rating system. Buy from only people you know or you slowly build a relationship with those you do not know. If you have to build a relationship then make sure you send a few items out for a cert before committing to larger purchases. Talk to other hobbyists and ask for recommendations.

Again if a person is buying inexpensive material for enjoyment, there is little risk. Those at risk are the intermediate and advanced collectors who are buying hard-to-find material. There are some great sellers on eBay, but they typically are asking fair prices for their material. And yes, there is an occasion ‘find’ from a seller who as no idea what they are listing (but counting on the fact that no one else will see the ‘find’ is a long shot).

It is my opinion that we should be promoting education on who we are buying from as the best solution to the massive amount of bad listings on eBay.
Don

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Guthrum
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05 May 2018
02:20:10pm
re: honesty on Ebay

The above seems to me an excellent explanation of what people - especially the inexperienced - need to know about Ebay; maybe it should form a SOR "sticky" so that new members in the future can access it as soon as they need to.

That is, of course, assuming it is a solid and reliable argument - I'm not a competent judge, having only ever bought one or two stamp sets from that source. If no-one has a counter-argument, perhaps we can accept it as the last word?

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GMOUKEH

05 May 2018
04:27:56pm
re: honesty on Ebay

When I put these 2 examples, I am looking for ideas about minimising that practice on EBay ( to keep it trustful source for philately), no one can ignore rule of eBay ( mainly) and other websites for pushing that hobby up after relatively decline in last decades ( especially for outside USA residents; which have a lot of money and time waste if they follow return policy; we pay almost 80-200% extra as shipping cost to make sure items we bought reach safe to you( ( not mentioned speeding). I am upset to pay 116$ for incomplete book, still looking for another copy of it ( interested in UN philately).
How we can stop that fake bidders ( may be they related to seller phisicaly or virtually), because the seller will lose more if put acceptable Lower limit of bidding to his item?
Ignoring seller to respond to you inquiries, because I don’t like to put negative feedback?
Again residents outside USA have their cost which is not clear to USA seller on eBay.

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jbaxter5256
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05 May 2018
09:18:14pm
re: honesty on Ebay

The best you can do is to attempt to reach the seller and get a refund through him and, if unsuccessful, to contact eBay. In this case negative feedback is a very reasonable thing to do if you cannot get restitution from the seller.

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michael78651
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05 May 2018
10:06:38pm
re: honesty on Ebay

"If you are buying a new DVD or other commodity item, then being able to see the item is not as important."



Caution needed on that statement. Knockoffs and pirated items are very common with CDs, DVDs and brand name merchandise. Many of those selling pirated merchandise are using USA addresses from which they claim the items are shipped. That is done to give people a comfort factor that the bogus merchandise is not coming from Asia (China and Philippines especially). Only after the purchase is it revealed in the tracking information that the item is being shipped from outside the USA.

Look at the seller's feedback. Even if they have 100,000+ feedbacks, look at the negatives and read the more recent ones. Buyers will report if they have found that what they bought was bogus. When you find a good seller (and there are many) remember them for times when you might want a similar item (like another DVD movie). The very low price can be a giveaway for something being bogus, but a high price can be a trick to make one think that it is genuine.

Buyer, beware!
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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

06 May 2018
04:03:17am
re: honesty on Ebay

Michael,
Point taken on pirated DVDs; hopefully folks understood my primary point about ‘new’ vs. ‘used’ merchandise condition.

Unfortunately eBay feedback is utterly meaningless. If a person is vengeful, for any reason at all, they simply use one of their multiple accounts to buy something from a seller with the sole intent to leave negative feedbacks. (Sellers cannot block accounts they do not know are related to a specific person.)

'Revenge feedbacks' are a common practice and it happens even in situations where one person angers another in a forum. For anyone who tries to ‘out’ some of the more notorious frauds on eBay, this happening is almost 100% guaranteed. There even is one case where one person was purported to say something to another person’s wife at a stamp show and it resulted in a ‘revenge' negative feedback.

So it is not uncommon for a great seller to have negative feedbacks. And there are, of course, many examples of horrid sellers having perfect feedback. Ever see these listings for items that sell for a few cents and wonder why anyone would bother to list such inexpensive items? It is to build feedbacks. When you have 40-50+ accounts it is easy to do. But for those who want to save time, they can pick up an existing account with 100% feedback at sites like these http://ebayselleraccounts.com/ or https://buyvcc.com/ebay/.

And then there are many cases where eBay will remove negative feedbacks upon request. Doing this violates every tenant of a Quality system (even in cases where a buyer is abusing the system). Imagine Better Business Bureau (BBB) removing complaints. No they list every complaint, even those which may be frivolous. The BBB is independent, they have no skin in the game. But eBay has a vested interest in removing negative feedbacks, without buyer confidence they do not make money.

And of course we have all seen listings and sellers which plead with buyers to not leave a negative feedback but to rather communicate with them so they can preserve their precious 100% rating. Making this ‘end-run’ around a feedback system undermines the value of the system. Imagine you own a manufacturing company which makes widgets. You ask your Quality Manager to collect data on how many widgets fail final inspection as they come off the assembly line. After 6 months you ask for the data and your QA manger happily reports that the failure rate was 0%; your company scored a perfect 100%! Oh wait, it turns out that your Quality Manager saw plenty of failures but put them back into the assembly line to fix before final inspection.

I have developed and implemented vender rating systems for ISO rated manufacturing companies. I can tell you that the eBay rating system would not even get past the simplest of critiques; it violates even the most basic smell tests. The eBay feedback system only serves eBay.

I stopped using the eBay feedback system years ago. Instead when I make a significant transaction on eBay I take the time to write the other person my opinion and thank them. I am not limited to a ‘tweet-like’ 50 characters and can give the person real, meaningful feedback which includes every aspect of the transaction.

It is a shame that eBay is doing this, there are some great sellers who try to use the feedback system correctly. For them, this situation is horrible. On the other hand this situation is great for alternate selling venues like this community. Having control over and being able to properly vet accounts is a huge advantage over eBay.
Don

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

06 May 2018
07:13:46am
re: honesty on Ebay

Don,

Just think about it, some are building a nice reference collection of Washington-Franklins stamps and do not know it.

W-F were too much trouble for me (experience needed, expertising costs) so just stopped collecting them.

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Rob1956
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)

06 May 2018
07:44:24am
re: honesty on Ebay

I never buy from eBay because of the scammers that plague it. There are many honest sellers too that are being victimised because of these scammers. The only rule I have for myself is that if you can't see it in front of you don't buy it.

In some cases I will buy from a stamp site connected to an authentic business that I can also contact by phone and view the stamp on approval.

Luckily there is very little I do not know about Australian stamps, and this knowledge served me well when a seller was auctioning a coronation £1 specimen on cover (fake cancellation as on a closer inspection the fake cancellation was applied in such a way it made it difficult to see the other cancellation originally applied to the stamp). Everything about the overprint was wrong, incorrect font, and incorrect placement of font.

The fake cancellation was dated October 14, 1942, considering that the Specimen only came on the market in a collectors pack in 1944, and that Specimens are not accepted as a valid commercial stamp for usage just proves the scams that are on eBay.

To my surprise the stamp was sold to a buyer for $300, it isn't worth $3.00 with the fake overprint, that buyer is going to have an unpleasant surprise when he attempts to take it to a stamp shop or auction.

The exception of rule for me if buying stamps apart from the company I already deal with will be from this forum and other forums I am very familiar with.

Rob

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

06 May 2018
08:17:19am
re: honesty on Ebay

Hi Al,
Good point, many folks do just give up. Frankly I am weary of getting inquiries on Stamp Smarter from family members and heirs who send me images of collections full of faked and altered stamps; it is heart breaking to have to tell some of these folks the truth. Just last week I got messaged by a grieving mother who was looking for a valuation of her deceased son’s collection which had a ton of faulty and bogus stamps in it. She was looking to help to pay for his final expenses. I struggled to find the right words but there was no way to ease the pain. Bill Weiss, just like any person who issues certificates to hobbyists, had endless sad stories of hobbyists who had fallen prey to fraudulent listings. Over on the SCF forum, we have a separate entire sub-forum filled with frustrated posts reporting online deceptions.

I believe we need to attract hobbyists to this great hobby but we also have to work to retain the hobbyists we have. We have a large amount of hobbyists who walk away after finding out they have been taken; 35 to 55 year old hobbyists who enter back into philately and try to flush out collections they started years ago. They get online, go to eBay, and start trying to fill the holes in their collections. After making a number of purchases and coming up to speed a bit more, they find they have been taken; they get frustrated and leave the hobby.

This is why I believe it important to spread the word about eBay’s marketing and the need to do discovery on who you buy from. Education, education, education.
Don

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

06 May 2018
09:00:16am
re: honesty on Ebay

Bill Weiss was supposedly known to make mistakes too.

From what I have seen, there are people here (including yourself) that appear to see issues in seconds from images.

There needs to be a middle ground (a stamp group could step up) to help vet stamps without having to go through the whole expertizing process. I do not see telling people to avoid ebay as the answer.

The review could be high risk, medium risk, low risk. This could be a for fee service. This "gang" would get a url's for lots and offer their opinion. The fee would give a relative risk.

To take a popular saying, "If I had a dollar for each stamp I saw that was not properly described" I would be rich." This is a chance. An example not thought out.. The cost of the fee to review would be $5 with 3 people offering an opinion. They would get get $1 for just a risk rating.

I had originally hoped the APS ID service would provide some "risk" for the one stamp I submitted so an ID. The comment back was you can send it to us for expertizing if you like.



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06 May 2018
09:06:04am
re: honesty on Ebay

Don,

Didn't a new group spring up dealing with Ebay after Ebay disbanded the old stamp group which used to discuss and picture bogus stamps listed on Ebay ??

They saved a lot of readers, if not the general collector, from making mistakes.... much to the chagrin of sellers.

Or is my memory better than the way it actually was ?? We're talking late 90's to the early part of the millennium here which I remember about as well as the sixties, albeit for different reasons..

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51Studebaker
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Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

06 May 2018
09:35:04am
re: honesty on Ebay

Hi,
Yes, eBay originally had an oversight group which had notable experts on it such as Bill Weiss and Ken Lawrence. They had influence in being able to identify and remove listing which contain fake, altered or misidentified stamps and covers. Similar groups also existed for other categories like artwork, coins, etc. The members of these groups were volunteers.

But eBay shut them all down around 2011 and this left absolutely no oversight. To be honest, the way eBay had it implemented it needed much improvement. The group members were kept secret and were not identified when seller listings were removed. This caused a lot of problems especially on those listings may have been in a grey area. In my opinion, sellers had a right to know who was passing judgement and/or be able to interface with them and respond. I think eBay addressed these significant short-comings by just dropping the program.

At that time, Bill Weiss approached me and asked me for possible solutions. I told him I could establish an online community database and website where folks could review online listings and they was the start of Stamp Smarter. The community project was administered by Bill and we built a decent database with over 2000+ listing reviews over time. But rather than just have it be a whine-fest, I added support for proactively contacting the sellers with suggestion on how to improve the listings. The project is still active but there are few people participating anymore http://stampsmarter.com/BuyingOnline/Home_ViewDB.html

This made it more like the Better Business Bureau, allowing folks to see which sellers were seeking to improve their listings and better support their customers. After all, the real measure of a good seller is one who responds to continuous improvement. So after a listing review was submitted, we would then contact the seller and offer suggestions to avoid costly returns, angry customers, and negative feedbacks.

Statistically about 50% of the sellers responded favorably, about 30% ignored us, and 20% threatened us. Not surprisingly, those which threatened us were the biggest frauds and least ethical sellers (the ones who knew exactly what they were doing).
Don


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Rob1956
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)

06 May 2018
12:00:04pm
re: honesty on Ebay

There is no such thing as a bargain on eBay when it comes to rare stamps, all rare stamps should be supplied with an authentic certification. eBay is a haven for scammers and conning the gullible is like shooting ducks in a barrel to them.

It cannot be emphasised enough that an expensive stamp is not going to be sold cheap, and that one must tread cautiously if one is willing to part company with their money on eBay.

There should be a scam alert in every forum dedicated to philately and the survival of philately.

I am in the process of creating a forum and hopefully it will be up and running soon, it is dedicated purely to pre-decimal Australian stamps, this forum will also have a scammer alert.

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

06 May 2018
12:09:38pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: honesty on Ebay

"The only rule I have for myself is that if you can't see it in front of you don't buy it."



The best advice of all if you are spending more than a few bucks.

That is why I spend time going to auctions or selected dealers. Some of the auctions I attend means a round trip of 170 miles.

There is one collector I know travels from Scotland to British Columbia in Canada once a year because a couple of dealers there has what he collects.

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AntoniusRa
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The truth is within and only you can reveal it

06 May 2018
07:36:49pm
re: honesty on Ebay

Ebay use to have a great stamp chat that was terminated by Ebay 10 years ago or so. A dozen years, or so, prior to it's demise The Ebay Users Stamp club came into being. At it's peak, when I was President of the club, it had right around 550 members making it probably the largest APS sanctioned club. The club still barely exists and has monthly meetings on a new Ebay chat board that focus on, no more, than a collecting topic. However monthly meetings rarely see more than half a dozen participants making the club basically extict. Since my time Sheryll Ruecker has tried to keep the club alive but with minimal sucess. She was the most vigilant member in trying to bring the "Dodgy Sellers" to light and had created a site to discuss and warn buyers of these sellers. I'm sure it till exists but I don't know where I've stashed the URL. With all the limitations Eba put on postings on the chat board this was something Ebay no longer allowed and led to their cancelling of the original chat board.
Originally we saw ourselves as the gatekeepers with one of our primary goals was ridding Ebay of the dishonest sellers. Shortly after my tenure Ebay saw fit to get rid of the
chatboard that we used to conduct meetings on and the whole thing pretty much dissolved. I have to say I had seen the whole thing coming and tried to get our own site for the club apart from Ebay. Unfortunately there was little interest in my proposal and so went a great club that had the potential of being one of the most helpful philatelic sites around.
Ebay use to be one of the greatest sites ever but sadly that time is long gone and they only have their selves to blame. It's been a lot of years but I am still pissed about it all.

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Brechinite
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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons

07 May 2018
12:00:19pm

Auctions - Approvals
re: honesty on Ebay

What is the definition of scarce or rare in the stamp world?

One collector I know put a stamp up for auction on ebay and was pilloried by a few numptys.
According to them the stamp did not exist, he was a crook, a cheat and a fraudster.

He had the last laugh when the stamp sold in Australia for a few tens of thousands of dollars!!

Be very careful who you denegrate because unfortunately the person who knows everything about a particular subject does not exist!!

You may think you do, but you don't, not even me!!

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Author/Postings
GMOUKEH

04 May 2018
02:15:31pm

in the last 6 months, I have noticed many issues about seller on Ebay.
* one seller on bidding put the same items after 1 hour of losing it with difference of less than 0.5 $ in last seconds for 3 items???
* yesterday 2 items for same seller lost the bidding with less than 0.25 $ with same fixed price 11 $ for both from different bidder ?!?!?!?!
*since 3 months I have bought book "United Nations Philately" edited by Arleigh Gaines by 35$ and paid 81 for shipping, when i examine it after delivery, about 30 % of pages were lost and scattered through 2000 pages, no chapter is complete, I send to seller asking about that, he ignore even simple response?? Image Not Found

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michael78651

04 May 2018
02:36:35pm

re: honesty on Ebay

If you're not satisfied with a transaction on Ebay, file a dispute through Ebay. If you think a seller on Ebay is not honest, file a report with Ebay. There's nothing we can do about it here.

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Guthrum

04 May 2018
04:10:35pm

re: honesty on Ebay

I suspect Ghamez is looking for sympathy rather than advice, Michael. What chance has he in filing a dispute with Ebay? (If that works anything like Delcampe, I fear very little.) There may be others in SOR who have had success in filing disputes with Ebay - if so, no doubt Ghamez would like to hear from them.

That said, caveat emptor always applies with online marts, and it may be that he has wasted his money this time. Perhaps dealing and trading with SOR members would be a better bet for him in future.

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rjan

04 May 2018
04:17:12pm

re: honesty on Ebay

I remain active on eBay but only with specific vendors. My current favorite guarantees return for any good reason. I have taken advantage on up to 20% of my purchases for hidden flaws; mostly rips etc under adhered paper. There has never been a reserve on issuing full return credit.

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Soundcrest

04 May 2018
05:44:15pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: honesty on Ebay

I have been selling on ebay since 1997. I can tell you flat out one of my problems with them is the seller is ALWAYS wrong. An incomplete book certainly should give the buyer his money back. In 20+ years have many stories about buyers, because actually as a seller there is little you can do to disprove a claim made against you, even if you as a seller are right. File a claim by all means!

Greg

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
04 May 2018
07:07:33pm

re: honesty on Ebay

Greg, "The seller is always wrong" Well said! That and Ebay not allowing sellers to leave negative feedback were the things that finally turned me away from Ebay. There are just as many dishonest buyers as there are sellers.
I once sold a rear spoiler on Ebay to a guy who fled a complaint that he never had received.
All of my paper work was in order but that would have made no difference. The only reason I got my money back is that the buyer had left me glowing feedback about the spoiler he obviously received. It only took Ebay three weeks to refund my money after the saw the feedback.

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dani20

04 May 2018
07:27:19pm

re: honesty on Ebay

Wouldn't paying with Paypal take care of some of these issues?
Dan C.

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jbaxter5256

04 May 2018
11:53:52pm

re: honesty on Ebay

I've made over two hundred purchases on eBay in the past twelve months and only had two issues where refunds were needed by the seller (one item was never received and one item had the wrong stamp in the envelope, for the last, the seller got two orders mixed up). One additional item was damaged during shipping due to dampness which resulted in one absolutely beautiful Canada 122 in mint condition arriving stuck to a dealer card. Actually it was so nice that I floated it off the dealer card and kept it anyway. The vendor offered a refund for the price paid but given the bid cost to me I elected to refuse the refund as it really wasn't the seller's fault although I did suggest that in the future he consider putting mint stamps in water impermeable bags when shipping to the Northwest during the somewhat painfully wet winter months.

Another four items I considered disappointing and not really worth the price paid: two because the seller essentially hid issues by presenting photographs only with no text mention of flaws that significantly impacted the value of the offering, one because a shrink wrapped original album had an enclosed newsprint enclosure between the pages of a beginner album that had caused damage to the pages, and one because an Internatioal Part II album only covered the period 1941 to 1946 because it was copyright 1947.

I have noticed a pattern of a couple of well-known, high volume sellers who have a tendency to see very high run ups in auction prices in the last seconds of an auction and, often, either misrepresented or inadequately described auction items. Yet often they seem to have an unusually high volumes of sales. It is most frustrating that eBay does NOT allow any negative postings about their sales practices or even issues with a given lot. I do occasionally still bid on their offerings but have become a lot more careful about my review of their offerings as you can never assume that their pictured items are representative of the collection and that any other items not pictured exist at all in an album in particular.

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jbaxter5256

05 May 2018
12:11:09am

re: honesty on Ebay

I have also made several purchases on Stamporama and have been quite pleased with the costs in general and the condition of stamps in particular. I particularly like sellers who include Country, Scott #, year of issue, and explicit mention of used, MNG, MNH,MH, or MLH condition on their offerings. I have only had a couple of cases where postage costs rather overwhelmed the value of the stamp offering received due to either a quick invoice or just high costs to get the item delivered from overseas where I was unable to find items to combine in a single shipment that were being offered.

I have even bought a single stamp for well under a dollar and happily paid $2 for shipping because it was the last mint stamp I needed to complete Canada Officials in mint condition.

I have also bought duplicates of a stamp offering because of not keeping track of what I have already purchased from the same or other sellers adequately. I am working on doing a better job of keeping track of in process orders and received stamps that haven't been put in albums to combat this particular issue. Silly

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BenFranklin1902

Tom in Exton, PA
05 May 2018
11:03:07am

Approvals

re: honesty on Ebay

"I have noticed a pattern of a couple of well-known, high volume sellers who have a tendency to see very high run ups in auction prices in the last seconds of an auction and, often, either misrepresented or inadequately described auction items. Yet often they seem to have an unusually high volumes of sales. It is most frustrating that eBay does NOT allow any negative postings about their sales practices or even issues with a given lot. "



I have been a buyer on eBay since it's inception. I have never experienced outright fraud. There were times when I received things that were misidentified or the condition overstated. Those were always corrected to my satisfaction.

I believe I know the sellers you mention. I have bought from them as well, those who just put a photo of front and a flat photo of the reverse side that doesn't show the multiple hinging etc. For the fact that their stuff sells for high numbers alone, I've shifted to looking up the same stamps from smaller sellers. I'm able to find reliable people who describe stamps well, and their bids don't go wacky.

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
05 May 2018
01:06:48pm

re: honesty on Ebay

If you are a collector who buys from eBay sellers like Anthony’s or Nystamps; then you have purchased mis-identified and/or altered stamps. If you are a collector who has purchased a US #315 or any of the uncommon Washington/Franklin coils stamps on eBay; then you have purchased mis-identified and/or altered stamps. A full 95% of all US #315 on eBay are not #315s. At least 80% of all US Washington/Franklin coils are not as listed. Many collectors simply buy these stamps, mount them in their albums, and then feel good about the ‘deal’ they think they got. This is why many people think/say they are doing fine on eBay. But before telling other folks that eBay is great, try sending some of the stuff in for certification.

And it is not just US material. For example, a very large percentage amount of higher value British Commonwealth stamps found on eBay have been washed with faked postal cancels added. If you talk to the experts who certify stamps, they will tell you how stamp after stamp they see from eBay is not what the buyer thought it was; what ‘saves’ most collectors is they do not get expert opinions on what they buy. It will be up their heirs or family members to get the bad news one day when the collection is sold.

eBay is fine if you are dealing with low value material and buying with your enjoyment in mind. But anyone who is trying to build a quality collection, especially intermediate to advanced collectors looking to ‘fill holes’; eBay is a total minefield.

The issue is that far too many people start by searching on eBay with ‘lowest to highest’ price; this is what the bad sellers count on. They know they can count on our egos, that we feel we can find the ‘good deals’. But the truth is a good seller knows exactly what quality stamps sells for and has little incentive to start a listing far below market value. If you had a great, quality stamp that has a market value of $100 (having verified that similar stamps have recently sold for this amount), would you start it as an auction listing at 99 cents?

I do not fault eBay. The key part of eBay’s business model is that they understood what had to be done to get people to buy stuff sight unseen. What person in their right mind buys used things without seeing them other than an image(s) and description supplied by the seller? If you are buying a new DVD or other commodity item, then being able to see the item is not as important. But ‘condition’ makes a huge difference when buying used things.

So eBay needed a marketing strategy which gave buyers a level of confidence to buy stuff sight unseen; they developed Terms and Conditions which favored buyers. They developed an incredibly stupid and inane ‘Rating System’ so that buyers would feel ok with sending money to some unknown seller half way around the world. They backup most buyer claims as long as they can snatch the money back from the seller’s account. But just try to get your money back from eBay if the seller closes his account. If it is for a few bucks eBay will eat it but they certainly will NOT if the amount is significant. And of course eBay quickly removes any negative feedbacks from the prefer sellers upon request. (Does anyone really think it is possible to have thousands of transaction without a single complaint? Doh.)

There is an entire 3rd party industry which sells existing eBay accounts with perfect ratings. There are books and websites which encourages convicted felons to buy these existing accounts and set up ‘businesses’. Stamp sellers like the British Cartel person typically has 40-50+ eBay accounts; each with separate bank accounts and identities. When he gets enough faked/fraudulent/mis-identified material and returns requests against one account; he closes it and moved on. eBay cannot chase people around, they simply do not refund the buyer(s).

eBay will never, ever properly vet accounts, they have no way to do this without huge expenses. Banks do not even properly vet people, you can walk in with one or two marginal forms of ID and some cash and open an account. And of course no matter how much they might police things, there will always be new scam artists and frauds to take advantage of other folks.

So the only real defense is to counter the massive eBay brainwashing marketing is with education. Of course we all know we should be educated on the stamp and covers we buy. But online buying DEMANDS that we also be educated on WHO we are buying from; you simply cannot rely upon eBay or its worthless rating system. Buy from only people you know or you slowly build a relationship with those you do not know. If you have to build a relationship then make sure you send a few items out for a cert before committing to larger purchases. Talk to other hobbyists and ask for recommendations.

Again if a person is buying inexpensive material for enjoyment, there is little risk. Those at risk are the intermediate and advanced collectors who are buying hard-to-find material. There are some great sellers on eBay, but they typically are asking fair prices for their material. And yes, there is an occasion ‘find’ from a seller who as no idea what they are listing (but counting on the fact that no one else will see the ‘find’ is a long shot).

It is my opinion that we should be promoting education on who we are buying from as the best solution to the massive amount of bad listings on eBay.
Don

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Guthrum

05 May 2018
02:20:10pm

re: honesty on Ebay

The above seems to me an excellent explanation of what people - especially the inexperienced - need to know about Ebay; maybe it should form a SOR "sticky" so that new members in the future can access it as soon as they need to.

That is, of course, assuming it is a solid and reliable argument - I'm not a competent judge, having only ever bought one or two stamp sets from that source. If no-one has a counter-argument, perhaps we can accept it as the last word?

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GMOUKEH

05 May 2018
04:27:56pm

re: honesty on Ebay

When I put these 2 examples, I am looking for ideas about minimising that practice on EBay ( to keep it trustful source for philately), no one can ignore rule of eBay ( mainly) and other websites for pushing that hobby up after relatively decline in last decades ( especially for outside USA residents; which have a lot of money and time waste if they follow return policy; we pay almost 80-200% extra as shipping cost to make sure items we bought reach safe to you( ( not mentioned speeding). I am upset to pay 116$ for incomplete book, still looking for another copy of it ( interested in UN philately).
How we can stop that fake bidders ( may be they related to seller phisicaly or virtually), because the seller will lose more if put acceptable Lower limit of bidding to his item?
Ignoring seller to respond to you inquiries, because I don’t like to put negative feedback?
Again residents outside USA have their cost which is not clear to USA seller on eBay.

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jbaxter5256

05 May 2018
09:18:14pm

re: honesty on Ebay

The best you can do is to attempt to reach the seller and get a refund through him and, if unsuccessful, to contact eBay. In this case negative feedback is a very reasonable thing to do if you cannot get restitution from the seller.

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michael78651

05 May 2018
10:06:38pm

re: honesty on Ebay

"If you are buying a new DVD or other commodity item, then being able to see the item is not as important."



Caution needed on that statement. Knockoffs and pirated items are very common with CDs, DVDs and brand name merchandise. Many of those selling pirated merchandise are using USA addresses from which they claim the items are shipped. That is done to give people a comfort factor that the bogus merchandise is not coming from Asia (China and Philippines especially). Only after the purchase is it revealed in the tracking information that the item is being shipped from outside the USA.

Look at the seller's feedback. Even if they have 100,000+ feedbacks, look at the negatives and read the more recent ones. Buyers will report if they have found that what they bought was bogus. When you find a good seller (and there are many) remember them for times when you might want a similar item (like another DVD movie). The very low price can be a giveaway for something being bogus, but a high price can be a trick to make one think that it is genuine.

Buyer, beware!
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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
06 May 2018
04:03:17am

re: honesty on Ebay

Michael,
Point taken on pirated DVDs; hopefully folks understood my primary point about ‘new’ vs. ‘used’ merchandise condition.

Unfortunately eBay feedback is utterly meaningless. If a person is vengeful, for any reason at all, they simply use one of their multiple accounts to buy something from a seller with the sole intent to leave negative feedbacks. (Sellers cannot block accounts they do not know are related to a specific person.)

'Revenge feedbacks' are a common practice and it happens even in situations where one person angers another in a forum. For anyone who tries to ‘out’ some of the more notorious frauds on eBay, this happening is almost 100% guaranteed. There even is one case where one person was purported to say something to another person’s wife at a stamp show and it resulted in a ‘revenge' negative feedback.

So it is not uncommon for a great seller to have negative feedbacks. And there are, of course, many examples of horrid sellers having perfect feedback. Ever see these listings for items that sell for a few cents and wonder why anyone would bother to list such inexpensive items? It is to build feedbacks. When you have 40-50+ accounts it is easy to do. But for those who want to save time, they can pick up an existing account with 100% feedback at sites like these http://ebayselleraccounts.com/ or https://buyvcc.com/ebay/.

And then there are many cases where eBay will remove negative feedbacks upon request. Doing this violates every tenant of a Quality system (even in cases where a buyer is abusing the system). Imagine Better Business Bureau (BBB) removing complaints. No they list every complaint, even those which may be frivolous. The BBB is independent, they have no skin in the game. But eBay has a vested interest in removing negative feedbacks, without buyer confidence they do not make money.

And of course we have all seen listings and sellers which plead with buyers to not leave a negative feedback but to rather communicate with them so they can preserve their precious 100% rating. Making this ‘end-run’ around a feedback system undermines the value of the system. Imagine you own a manufacturing company which makes widgets. You ask your Quality Manager to collect data on how many widgets fail final inspection as they come off the assembly line. After 6 months you ask for the data and your QA manger happily reports that the failure rate was 0%; your company scored a perfect 100%! Oh wait, it turns out that your Quality Manager saw plenty of failures but put them back into the assembly line to fix before final inspection.

I have developed and implemented vender rating systems for ISO rated manufacturing companies. I can tell you that the eBay rating system would not even get past the simplest of critiques; it violates even the most basic smell tests. The eBay feedback system only serves eBay.

I stopped using the eBay feedback system years ago. Instead when I make a significant transaction on eBay I take the time to write the other person my opinion and thank them. I am not limited to a ‘tweet-like’ 50 characters and can give the person real, meaningful feedback which includes every aspect of the transaction.

It is a shame that eBay is doing this, there are some great sellers who try to use the feedback system correctly. For them, this situation is horrible. On the other hand this situation is great for alternate selling venues like this community. Having control over and being able to properly vet accounts is a huge advantage over eBay.
Don

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angore

Collector, Moderator
06 May 2018
07:13:46am

re: honesty on Ebay

Don,

Just think about it, some are building a nice reference collection of Washington-Franklins stamps and do not know it.

W-F were too much trouble for me (experience needed, expertising costs) so just stopped collecting them.

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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
06 May 2018
07:44:24am

re: honesty on Ebay

I never buy from eBay because of the scammers that plague it. There are many honest sellers too that are being victimised because of these scammers. The only rule I have for myself is that if you can't see it in front of you don't buy it.

In some cases I will buy from a stamp site connected to an authentic business that I can also contact by phone and view the stamp on approval.

Luckily there is very little I do not know about Australian stamps, and this knowledge served me well when a seller was auctioning a coronation £1 specimen on cover (fake cancellation as on a closer inspection the fake cancellation was applied in such a way it made it difficult to see the other cancellation originally applied to the stamp). Everything about the overprint was wrong, incorrect font, and incorrect placement of font.

The fake cancellation was dated October 14, 1942, considering that the Specimen only came on the market in a collectors pack in 1944, and that Specimens are not accepted as a valid commercial stamp for usage just proves the scams that are on eBay.

To my surprise the stamp was sold to a buyer for $300, it isn't worth $3.00 with the fake overprint, that buyer is going to have an unpleasant surprise when he attempts to take it to a stamp shop or auction.

The exception of rule for me if buying stamps apart from the company I already deal with will be from this forum and other forums I am very familiar with.

Rob

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
06 May 2018
08:17:19am

re: honesty on Ebay

Hi Al,
Good point, many folks do just give up. Frankly I am weary of getting inquiries on Stamp Smarter from family members and heirs who send me images of collections full of faked and altered stamps; it is heart breaking to have to tell some of these folks the truth. Just last week I got messaged by a grieving mother who was looking for a valuation of her deceased son’s collection which had a ton of faulty and bogus stamps in it. She was looking to help to pay for his final expenses. I struggled to find the right words but there was no way to ease the pain. Bill Weiss, just like any person who issues certificates to hobbyists, had endless sad stories of hobbyists who had fallen prey to fraudulent listings. Over on the SCF forum, we have a separate entire sub-forum filled with frustrated posts reporting online deceptions.

I believe we need to attract hobbyists to this great hobby but we also have to work to retain the hobbyists we have. We have a large amount of hobbyists who walk away after finding out they have been taken; 35 to 55 year old hobbyists who enter back into philately and try to flush out collections they started years ago. They get online, go to eBay, and start trying to fill the holes in their collections. After making a number of purchases and coming up to speed a bit more, they find they have been taken; they get frustrated and leave the hobby.

This is why I believe it important to spread the word about eBay’s marketing and the need to do discovery on who you buy from. Education, education, education.
Don

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angore

Collector, Moderator
06 May 2018
09:00:16am

re: honesty on Ebay

Bill Weiss was supposedly known to make mistakes too.

From what I have seen, there are people here (including yourself) that appear to see issues in seconds from images.

There needs to be a middle ground (a stamp group could step up) to help vet stamps without having to go through the whole expertizing process. I do not see telling people to avoid ebay as the answer.

The review could be high risk, medium risk, low risk. This could be a for fee service. This "gang" would get a url's for lots and offer their opinion. The fee would give a relative risk.

To take a popular saying, "If I had a dollar for each stamp I saw that was not properly described" I would be rich." This is a chance. An example not thought out.. The cost of the fee to review would be $5 with 3 people offering an opinion. They would get get $1 for just a risk rating.

I had originally hoped the APS ID service would provide some "risk" for the one stamp I submitted so an ID. The comment back was you can send it to us for expertizing if you like.



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Webpaper

06 May 2018
09:06:04am

re: honesty on Ebay

Don,

Didn't a new group spring up dealing with Ebay after Ebay disbanded the old stamp group which used to discuss and picture bogus stamps listed on Ebay ??

They saved a lot of readers, if not the general collector, from making mistakes.... much to the chagrin of sellers.

Or is my memory better than the way it actually was ?? We're talking late 90's to the early part of the millennium here which I remember about as well as the sixties, albeit for different reasons..

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51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
06 May 2018
09:35:04am

re: honesty on Ebay

Hi,
Yes, eBay originally had an oversight group which had notable experts on it such as Bill Weiss and Ken Lawrence. They had influence in being able to identify and remove listing which contain fake, altered or misidentified stamps and covers. Similar groups also existed for other categories like artwork, coins, etc. The members of these groups were volunteers.

But eBay shut them all down around 2011 and this left absolutely no oversight. To be honest, the way eBay had it implemented it needed much improvement. The group members were kept secret and were not identified when seller listings were removed. This caused a lot of problems especially on those listings may have been in a grey area. In my opinion, sellers had a right to know who was passing judgement and/or be able to interface with them and respond. I think eBay addressed these significant short-comings by just dropping the program.

At that time, Bill Weiss approached me and asked me for possible solutions. I told him I could establish an online community database and website where folks could review online listings and they was the start of Stamp Smarter. The community project was administered by Bill and we built a decent database with over 2000+ listing reviews over time. But rather than just have it be a whine-fest, I added support for proactively contacting the sellers with suggestion on how to improve the listings. The project is still active but there are few people participating anymore http://stampsmarter.com/BuyingOnline/Home_ViewDB.html

This made it more like the Better Business Bureau, allowing folks to see which sellers were seeking to improve their listings and better support their customers. After all, the real measure of a good seller is one who responds to continuous improvement. So after a listing review was submitted, we would then contact the seller and offer suggestions to avoid costly returns, angry customers, and negative feedbacks.

Statistically about 50% of the sellers responded favorably, about 30% ignored us, and 20% threatened us. Not surprisingly, those which threatened us were the biggest frauds and least ethical sellers (the ones who knew exactly what they were doing).
Don


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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
06 May 2018
12:00:04pm

re: honesty on Ebay

There is no such thing as a bargain on eBay when it comes to rare stamps, all rare stamps should be supplied with an authentic certification. eBay is a haven for scammers and conning the gullible is like shooting ducks in a barrel to them.

It cannot be emphasised enough that an expensive stamp is not going to be sold cheap, and that one must tread cautiously if one is willing to part company with their money on eBay.

There should be a scam alert in every forum dedicated to philately and the survival of philately.

I am in the process of creating a forum and hopefully it will be up and running soon, it is dedicated purely to pre-decimal Australian stamps, this forum will also have a scammer alert.

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Brechinite

Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
06 May 2018
12:09:38pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: honesty on Ebay

"The only rule I have for myself is that if you can't see it in front of you don't buy it."



The best advice of all if you are spending more than a few bucks.

That is why I spend time going to auctions or selected dealers. Some of the auctions I attend means a round trip of 170 miles.

There is one collector I know travels from Scotland to British Columbia in Canada once a year because a couple of dealers there has what he collects.

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AntoniusRa

The truth is within and only you can reveal it
06 May 2018
07:36:49pm

re: honesty on Ebay

Ebay use to have a great stamp chat that was terminated by Ebay 10 years ago or so. A dozen years, or so, prior to it's demise The Ebay Users Stamp club came into being. At it's peak, when I was President of the club, it had right around 550 members making it probably the largest APS sanctioned club. The club still barely exists and has monthly meetings on a new Ebay chat board that focus on, no more, than a collecting topic. However monthly meetings rarely see more than half a dozen participants making the club basically extict. Since my time Sheryll Ruecker has tried to keep the club alive but with minimal sucess. She was the most vigilant member in trying to bring the "Dodgy Sellers" to light and had created a site to discuss and warn buyers of these sellers. I'm sure it till exists but I don't know where I've stashed the URL. With all the limitations Eba put on postings on the chat board this was something Ebay no longer allowed and led to their cancelling of the original chat board.
Originally we saw ourselves as the gatekeepers with one of our primary goals was ridding Ebay of the dishonest sellers. Shortly after my tenure Ebay saw fit to get rid of the
chatboard that we used to conduct meetings on and the whole thing pretty much dissolved. I have to say I had seen the whole thing coming and tried to get our own site for the club apart from Ebay. Unfortunately there was little interest in my proposal and so went a great club that had the potential of being one of the most helpful philatelic sites around.
Ebay use to be one of the greatest sites ever but sadly that time is long gone and they only have their selves to blame. It's been a lot of years but I am still pissed about it all.

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Neddie Seagoon from The Telegoons
07 May 2018
12:00:19pm

Auctions - Approvals

re: honesty on Ebay

What is the definition of scarce or rare in the stamp world?

One collector I know put a stamp up for auction on ebay and was pilloried by a few numptys.
According to them the stamp did not exist, he was a crook, a cheat and a fraudster.

He had the last laugh when the stamp sold in Australia for a few tens of thousands of dollars!!

Be very careful who you denegrate because unfortunately the person who knows everything about a particular subject does not exist!!

You may think you do, but you don't, not even me!!

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