Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
In this case I will be writing about an extremely rare stamp which only 9 are known to exist, and the dealer version and why a certification, and I fully recommend a Ceremuga certificate should always be asked for prior to buying any stamp of this magnitude of rarity, in fact, any stamp that needs authentication.
There is an error of the 1959 deep blue 5d, where the left side of the stamp is imperforate between the stamp and sheet margin. Only 9 exist and is extremely rare where the catalogue value is $5,000 and the market value not far off the catalogue value.
Then there is another, where the right side is imperforate and is worth a few hundred dollars, most likely about the $250 mark.
Here is the difference.
The first imperforate - not much is known of the cause but it is proven that the stamp is not a miscut from a misguided guillotine. Also it came from a plate of 640 impressions comprising of two panes of 80 sheets (A, B, C, D) which means that sheet A will have two panes, each pane will have 10 rows of 8 stamps across = 160. So when adding sheets B, C, D there will be 640 stamps. Altogether, 1,659, 878,080 stamps were issued to Post Offices from 1959 – 1963. Only 9 were imperforate. No other variation of this error is known to exist.
The second is a miscut and has no certificate to authenticate the dealers’ assumption that the stamp is a genuine imperforate that rates the status of being extremely rare. In fact the stamp he is purporting to be an imperforate sheet error is actually from a booklet, to which many booklets have a miscut from being guillotined.
A genuine sheet imperforate of the 1959 5d deep blue is the position of the imperforation, the perforation starts at the border end of the design making the last perforation flush with the design edge and is only seen of type B. The miscut is two perforations beyond the border of the design showing the continuation of the perforation and the miscut giving the stamp this particular shape and can be seen that it’s from type A.
Also to iterate that the extremely rare imperforate came from a sheet, the miscut came from a booklet.
The real deal - sheet issue
Booklet stamp with miscut, erroneously has a sale price of $2,500 approximately overpriced by $2,250 and is still currently on the market. It is unlisted but is irrelevant and does not justify the exorbitant price
Shows imperforated sides of the booklet stamps
Booklet pair showing the perforation extension meeting with the imperforation
This must be insisted upon when buying rare stamps. The booklet stamp is being sold without any proof of genuineness. Any person who buys that booklet stamp will be greatly disappointed if they try to sell it
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I presume the dealer has been reported to the appropriate governing body? Also perhaps the press should be involved as well as the trading standards department.
Buyer beware.
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Anyone that buys stamps in Australia will know the dealer selling the item (based on the pic alone!). He is an extremely reputable dealer, and it's very unusual that this could slip through. He does have a number of staff listing items, but that isn't an explanation.
The miscut booklet pane answer doesn't completely fit the bill either in my opinion, as the left side of the pane would be severely misperfed, which would make them quite collectable in their own regard, but I've neither seen or heard of one.
Perhaps dropping him an email query might be a better alternative than outing him in public?
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I'm confused. Is there a 100% sure way to tell that this is not a sheet stamp? I've read Rob's post and do not understand the design alignment part.
Don
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I'll start with Dave. Yes he is a reputable dealer in Australia, this I will not impugn. But this dealer should know better than to publicise this stamp for sale, of course it could be an error from a sales staff but this stamp also has an ACSC number attached which mean it has been researched for it to be classified as unlisted.
I have already emailed the company, and hopefully I will receive an answer soon, but I am expecting the business to defend the pricing of the stamp. If the business acts appropriately and corrects the problem then I will have this post removed.
I have noticed that some dealers will add their own interpretation of a rare stamp and affix a price according to their interpretation which to me is wrong and can give a very bad taste to the collector/investor when they realise the real value. I would never advertise this stamp without a certificate attached to it.
The stamp with the left side imperforated to the sheet margin is in my collection.
There is also a firm I believe is well known to many - “DOWNIES”, which deals in rare coins and stamps; every stamp they sell and have sold seems to have a massive percentage mark-up; for example a 1975 18c Callistemon wildflower with the black totally omitted sells between $40 - $50 each in MUH condition (a fairly common error), Downies sells them for $245.00 each.
Page 2, top right.
https://www.downies.com/collectables/stamps/australian?p=2
They are also a very reputable business, and I have emailed them about that stamp and a few others including certain sets etc., and I received no answer to date and they were informed of the over inflated prices a few months ago.
Rob
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Hi Sheepshanks
I have emailed the dealer and will see what he has to say about the stamp in question.
Rob
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Hi Don
There are only 9 imperforated stamps of the sheet type ever recorded (Type B) and all are on the left side. The booklet version extends to the vertical sheet margin which is normal; this does not exist in the sheet printing.
The stamp in question shows the same type of perforation extending past the design frame seen in booklets, the extended imperforate is a miscut, whereas the extremely rare stamp the perforation stops at the design frame.
The stamp that is identified as a booklet stamp is Type A not Type B. Type B has 5 shading lines within the loop of “5d”, whereas Type A has 4 shading lines.
The 1959 5d blue booklet stamps have a perforation of 14.88 x 14.10. Booklet panes of 6 (3 rows of 2) are imperforated on the left, right and bottom edges.
The sheet stamp has a perforation of 14.88 x 14.04. From a sheet of 80.
Booklet: 16 perfs (top), 17 perfs vertical. Stamp situated on right side of pane.
Sheet: 15 perfs (top), 18 perfs vertical. Stamp situated on left side of sheet.
The stamp in question could have been produced anytime from 1959 - 1963. There were 583,547,404 booklet stamps made during that time, both A and B (without a certificate of providence it's authenticity cannot be verified though it is certain that the stamp is from a booklet and the true value would only be a few hundred dollars at most).
There is very little known of the Type B imperforate, but when comparing the Type A version with other booklet stamps it becomes quite obvious.
Type B
Rob
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Thanks Rob, that cleared up my confusion.
Don
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Here is a 1959 5d blue taken from a sheet, you can see the perf ending at the end of the design frame, there are 15 perforation tips above the image.
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Not being a collector of Australian stamps, I remain thoroughly confused concerning these stamps and the explanation. It would help to see a copy of the normal sheet stamp from the left side with its normal selvage. It would also help to know the perforation method used on the sheet and the booklet version. Comb perfs perhaps.
Tad
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Hi Tad
Both the sheet and booklet have comb perforations. I do not have a a copy of the normal sheet stamp showing full selvedge of the left side but I will obtain one on Monday and compare the stamps in question and will post the images on Monday or Tuesday.
Rob
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10:11:47am
" ....Here is a 1959 5d blue taken from a sheet,
you can see the perf ending at the end of
the design frame, there are 15 perforation tips
above the image....."
Rob, I have looked at the stamp you scanned and
read your explanation several times, including
ignoring it for a week so my mind would be fresh.
I still have no idea what you mean by;
"the perf ending at the end of the design frame, "
or
"15 perforation tips above the image."
I am sure you have a specific meaning in mind
but it is lost on me. Perhaps a pencil drawing
on a copy of the stamp would illustrate the
situation.
If I drew a line, extending the top of the
frame line to the right and to the left it would
intersect the bottom edge of the top perf hole,
in comparison to s similar line along the bottom
frame where the extended line intersects the lowest
perf hole almost squarely in the middle of he arch.
Is that it and it would be obvious were a scan of
the other variation available ?
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Don
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Hi Dave
I have just given up asking for a reply from the dealer in question, emails constantly ignored, I have come to the conclusion that the dealer must be ignorant to the fact that the stamp is not the extremely rare imperforate sheet stamp, and that he is going to sell the stamp anyway, I will be taking the real McCoy to the ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW) with a photocopy of the dealers version, if anything that can be done that will have an effective result would be from the national and international experts that attend.
Rob
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Hi cdj1122
Don's arrows show where the perforations end. The number of tips (tops of the perforations) for the imperforate sheet stamp from one end to the other is 15, the booklet stamp is 16.
And of course, the booklet stamp extends further away from the border of the stamp. It is very important that rare stamps must only be purchased with a recognised certificate of authenticity, if there isn't one avoid it like the plague.
My avatar is a rare 1938 £1 Coronation Specimen, this specimen is constantly counterfeited and many victims burnt, it must only be purchased accompanied by a certificate of authenticity from a recognised expertiser, mine has a certificate from the international expert, Chris Ceremuga.
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Hi ROb and all
In reference to your one pound coronation speciman.
I know some-one who has got one, but for the reason that forgeries abound, I am reluctant to purchase itl
It is a very reasonable price, but no cert.
I may just buy it for curiosity.
Regards
Horamaket.
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Hi Horamaket
There is no such thing as a reasonable price for a forged £1 Coronation Specimen and should be avoided like the plague, no matter what the sales pitch.
The easiest way to identify a real specimen is to feel the overprint from the back, it should be indented, if not, it’s a fake as many forgeries nowadays are done by laser printer and the indentation is absent.
The real McCoy
Unfortunately my printer died and haven't had the time to replace it so I cannot show the back.
A certificate needs to accompany it.
If the seller says that it will be sent later or it will cost $50 more it is nothing more than a con job to fleece you out of more money.
Get the person to send an image of the back and front.
Rob
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
18 Oct 2018
08:47:15am
It is quite easily to be misled by unscrupulous people preying on the novice collector, but what happens if the person who has misled you is supposed to be a respectable dealer?
In this case I will be writing about an extremely rare stamp which only 9 are known to exist, and the dealer version and why a certification, and I fully recommend a Ceremuga certificate should always be asked for prior to buying any stamp of this magnitude of rarity, in fact, any stamp that needs authentication.
There is an error of the 1959 deep blue 5d, where the left side of the stamp is imperforate between the stamp and sheet margin. Only 9 exist and is extremely rare where the catalogue value is $5,000 and the market value not far off the catalogue value.
Then there is another, where the right side is imperforate and is worth a few hundred dollars, most likely about the $250 mark.
Here is the difference.
The first imperforate - not much is known of the cause but it is proven that the stamp is not a miscut from a misguided guillotine. Also it came from a plate of 640 impressions comprising of two panes of 80 sheets (A, B, C, D) which means that sheet A will have two panes, each pane will have 10 rows of 8 stamps across = 160. So when adding sheets B, C, D there will be 640 stamps. Altogether, 1,659, 878,080 stamps were issued to Post Offices from 1959 – 1963. Only 9 were imperforate. No other variation of this error is known to exist.
The second is a miscut and has no certificate to authenticate the dealers’ assumption that the stamp is a genuine imperforate that rates the status of being extremely rare. In fact the stamp he is purporting to be an imperforate sheet error is actually from a booklet, to which many booklets have a miscut from being guillotined.
A genuine sheet imperforate of the 1959 5d deep blue is the position of the imperforation, the perforation starts at the border end of the design making the last perforation flush with the design edge and is only seen of type B. The miscut is two perforations beyond the border of the design showing the continuation of the perforation and the miscut giving the stamp this particular shape and can be seen that it’s from type A.
Also to iterate that the extremely rare imperforate came from a sheet, the miscut came from a booklet.
The real deal - sheet issue
Booklet stamp with miscut, erroneously has a sale price of $2,500 approximately overpriced by $2,250 and is still currently on the market. It is unlisted but is irrelevant and does not justify the exorbitant price
Shows imperforated sides of the booklet stamps
Booklet pair showing the perforation extension meeting with the imperforation
This must be insisted upon when buying rare stamps. The booklet stamp is being sold without any proof of genuineness. Any person who buys that booklet stamp will be greatly disappointed if they try to sell it
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re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
I presume the dealer has been reported to the appropriate governing body? Also perhaps the press should be involved as well as the trading standards department.
Buyer beware.
Login to Like
this post
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Anyone that buys stamps in Australia will know the dealer selling the item (based on the pic alone!). He is an extremely reputable dealer, and it's very unusual that this could slip through. He does have a number of staff listing items, but that isn't an explanation.
The miscut booklet pane answer doesn't completely fit the bill either in my opinion, as the left side of the pane would be severely misperfed, which would make them quite collectable in their own regard, but I've neither seen or heard of one.
Perhaps dropping him an email query might be a better alternative than outing him in public?
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re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
I'm confused. Is there a 100% sure way to tell that this is not a sheet stamp? I've read Rob's post and do not understand the design alignment part.
Don
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
18 Oct 2018
02:27:26pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
I'll start with Dave. Yes he is a reputable dealer in Australia, this I will not impugn. But this dealer should know better than to publicise this stamp for sale, of course it could be an error from a sales staff but this stamp also has an ACSC number attached which mean it has been researched for it to be classified as unlisted.
I have already emailed the company, and hopefully I will receive an answer soon, but I am expecting the business to defend the pricing of the stamp. If the business acts appropriately and corrects the problem then I will have this post removed.
I have noticed that some dealers will add their own interpretation of a rare stamp and affix a price according to their interpretation which to me is wrong and can give a very bad taste to the collector/investor when they realise the real value. I would never advertise this stamp without a certificate attached to it.
The stamp with the left side imperforated to the sheet margin is in my collection.
There is also a firm I believe is well known to many - “DOWNIES”, which deals in rare coins and stamps; every stamp they sell and have sold seems to have a massive percentage mark-up; for example a 1975 18c Callistemon wildflower with the black totally omitted sells between $40 - $50 each in MUH condition (a fairly common error), Downies sells them for $245.00 each.
Page 2, top right.
https://www.downies.com/collectables/stamps/australian?p=2
They are also a very reputable business, and I have emailed them about that stamp and a few others including certain sets etc., and I received no answer to date and they were informed of the over inflated prices a few months ago.
Rob
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
18 Oct 2018
02:31:49pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi Sheepshanks
I have emailed the dealer and will see what he has to say about the stamp in question.
Rob
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
18 Oct 2018
03:21:35pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi Don
There are only 9 imperforated stamps of the sheet type ever recorded (Type B) and all are on the left side. The booklet version extends to the vertical sheet margin which is normal; this does not exist in the sheet printing.
The stamp in question shows the same type of perforation extending past the design frame seen in booklets, the extended imperforate is a miscut, whereas the extremely rare stamp the perforation stops at the design frame.
The stamp that is identified as a booklet stamp is Type A not Type B. Type B has 5 shading lines within the loop of “5d”, whereas Type A has 4 shading lines.
The 1959 5d blue booklet stamps have a perforation of 14.88 x 14.10. Booklet panes of 6 (3 rows of 2) are imperforated on the left, right and bottom edges.
The sheet stamp has a perforation of 14.88 x 14.04. From a sheet of 80.
Booklet: 16 perfs (top), 17 perfs vertical. Stamp situated on right side of pane.
Sheet: 15 perfs (top), 18 perfs vertical. Stamp situated on left side of sheet.
The stamp in question could have been produced anytime from 1959 - 1963. There were 583,547,404 booklet stamps made during that time, both A and B (without a certificate of providence it's authenticity cannot be verified though it is certain that the stamp is from a booklet and the true value would only be a few hundred dollars at most).
There is very little known of the Type B imperforate, but when comparing the Type A version with other booklet stamps it becomes quite obvious.
Type B
Rob
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re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Thanks Rob, that cleared up my confusion.
Don
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
18 Oct 2018
10:38:42pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Here is a 1959 5d blue taken from a sheet, you can see the perf ending at the end of the design frame, there are 15 perforation tips above the image.
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re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Not being a collector of Australian stamps, I remain thoroughly confused concerning these stamps and the explanation. It would help to see a copy of the normal sheet stamp from the left side with its normal selvage. It would also help to know the perforation method used on the sheet and the booklet version. Comb perfs perhaps.
Tad
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
20 Oct 2018
02:07:35am
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi Tad
Both the sheet and booklet have comb perforations. I do not have a a copy of the normal sheet stamp showing full selvedge of the left side but I will obtain one on Monday and compare the stamps in question and will post the images on Monday or Tuesday.
Rob
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
23 Nov 2018
10:11:47am
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
" ....Here is a 1959 5d blue taken from a sheet,
you can see the perf ending at the end of
the design frame, there are 15 perforation tips
above the image....."
Rob, I have looked at the stamp you scanned and
read your explanation several times, including
ignoring it for a week so my mind would be fresh.
I still have no idea what you mean by;
"the perf ending at the end of the design frame, "
or
"15 perforation tips above the image."
I am sure you have a specific meaning in mind
but it is lost on me. Perhaps a pencil drawing
on a copy of the stamp would illustrate the
situation.
If I drew a line, extending the top of the
frame line to the right and to the left it would
intersect the bottom edge of the top perf hole,
in comparison to s similar line along the bottom
frame where the extended line intersects the lowest
perf hole almost squarely in the middle of he arch.
Is that it and it would be obvious were a scan of
the other variation available ?
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re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Don
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
23 Nov 2018
12:46:59pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi Dave
I have just given up asking for a reply from the dealer in question, emails constantly ignored, I have come to the conclusion that the dealer must be ignorant to the fact that the stamp is not the extremely rare imperforate sheet stamp, and that he is going to sell the stamp anyway, I will be taking the real McCoy to the ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW) with a photocopy of the dealers version, if anything that can be done that will have an effective result would be from the national and international experts that attend.
Rob
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
23 Nov 2018
01:12:53pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi cdj1122
Don's arrows show where the perforations end. The number of tips (tops of the perforations) for the imperforate sheet stamp from one end to the other is 15, the booklet stamp is 16.
And of course, the booklet stamp extends further away from the border of the stamp. It is very important that rare stamps must only be purchased with a recognised certificate of authenticity, if there isn't one avoid it like the plague.
My avatar is a rare 1938 £1 Coronation Specimen, this specimen is constantly counterfeited and many victims burnt, it must only be purchased accompanied by a certificate of authenticity from a recognised expertiser, mine has a certificate from the international expert, Chris Ceremuga.
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re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi ROb and all
In reference to your one pound coronation speciman.
I know some-one who has got one, but for the reason that forgeries abound, I am reluctant to purchase itl
It is a very reasonable price, but no cert.
I may just buy it for curiosity.
Regards
Horamaket.
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
25 Nov 2018
07:26:24pm
re: HOW EASILY IT IS TO BE MISLED
Hi Horamaket
There is no such thing as a reasonable price for a forged £1 Coronation Specimen and should be avoided like the plague, no matter what the sales pitch.
The easiest way to identify a real specimen is to feel the overprint from the back, it should be indented, if not, it’s a fake as many forgeries nowadays are done by laser printer and the indentation is absent.
The real McCoy
Unfortunately my printer died and haven't had the time to replace it so I cannot show the back.
A certificate needs to accompany it.
If the seller says that it will be sent later or it will cost $50 more it is nothing more than a con job to fleece you out of more money.
Get the person to send an image of the back and front.
Rob
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