Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
It's my collection of the earliest series of the La Guaira-Puerto Cabello-St Thomas packet, which was initiated in July, 1864.
The top row are all genuine, the bottom row are all forgeries. There seem to be as many forgeries in the marketplace as genuine stamps. Perhaps the definitive reference for these stamps is The Private Ship Letter Stamps of the World, Part 1 The Caribbean by Ringstrom and Tester (copyright unknown). More than half the pages of this 160-page book are devoted to this one packet line, and there is a very comprehensive and descriptive listing of all the forgeries.
Let the party begin!
-Paul
PS, Show us your Lady McLeod!
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Here are the only 2 I have. I am under the impression they are genuine, as i have read that forgeries of the serpentine perforation issues are not known.
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Some helpful links
http://www.mostlyclassics.net/philatelic/StThomasEtcShipLocalStamps.pdf
http://www.jaysmith.com/Lists/Danish-West-Indies/Danish-West-Indies-Shipping-Company-Stamps-St.-Thomas-La-Guaira-Puerto-Cabello.html
Don
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Thanks, Don, for the nice posting!
Again, in reference to the book I list at the top of this posting, it appears that your stamps are both from the local printings, done by Felix Rasco of Caracas rather than Waterlow of London. Rasco used two different perforations, including the saw tooth that your stamps have. There are design features that indicate that the Medio Real stamp is from Stone II, 1866. Stone II printings of the Dos Reales stamp have a prominent dot of color in the middle of the foresail, which seems to be missing from your stamp, although the cancellation possibly obscures this area, as it does the area around the tail of the Q, which is also an important distinguishing feature between Stones I and II.
Very nice used examples!
The red Medio Real and green Dos Reales stamps were used on mail from Venezuela to St Thomas. These were also printed in blue (1/2) and orange (2) for use on mail from St Thomas to Venezuela.
I did not see any reference to forgeries of the local printings. I will follow this posting later with some examples of variants of these stamps.
-Paul
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"There are design features that indicate that the Medio Real stamp is from Stone II, 1866"
Do the numerals in the corners change with the year of printing? As all of the stamps show the 1864 date.
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Thanks for your reply, sheepshanks!
Answer is "no". The 6 and 4 motifs (for 1864) are universal in this issue, regardless of the actual year of issue (September, 1866 for the Stone II printing of the Medio Real; January 1866 for the Dos Reales, Stone II), or the denomination.
About the only design feature that distinguishes Stone I from Stone II in the Medio Real issue is the presence or absence of the tail on the Q of "PAQUETE". For the Dos Reales issues, an additional feature is the dot in the middle of the foresail, present in the Stone II printings only. This gets more complicated however, as one researcher has asserted that at least four different stones for each value were used during the various printings. The reference I have does not provide enough detail to absolutely distinguish between these stones.
I find issues such as this one extremely compelling from a research perspective. Another such issue that readily comes to mind is the US Pony Express issues.
-Paul
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Here are the CENTAVOS issues:
(* Note 1868 1C black/purple is kinda of a mystery to me... looks like a Type IV but it doesn't show any line over the numeral. Any idea?)
Also... Found this directly from google, not sure which page links to it so sorry for direct linking to it:
https://www.davidfeldman.com/wp-content/uploads/items_treated_pdf/2015/11/144451_278961_1448018304.pdf
(The REALES issues sections is pretty good... But the CENTAVOS section is terrible! full of fakes)
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Would this stamp fall into this category, or is it just a cinderella or fantasy stamp
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Wonderful thread on an obscure topic, thanks for posting
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bobgggg
This is a Venezuela Cinderella similar to a France Queen Mary Ship
The Carribean Private mail ships included
Trinidad The Lady McLeod
St. Thomas-La Guaira-Puerto Cabello
Coro-La Vela Venezuela
St. Thomas-Porto Rico, Clara Rothe
St. Lucia Steam Conveyance Limited
The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
The Hamburg American Packet Company
The Central American Steamship Company
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@bobgggg That's a venezuelan vignette... that I'm missing 
So if you don't need it, let me know.
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Here are the ones I've managed to aquire over the years.
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Sorry Mitch, I think the entire first row are fakes.
Haven't check the rest.
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Well, to be honest, i am seeing the image in my phone. I'm not sure about the 1c.
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In the first row
#1 Common crude forgery
#2 Genuine less common Type II
#3 Forg. no dot after CENTAVO
#4 Forg. no dot after CENTAVO
The other appear fine but there are different die types in the mix
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Off-topic: SForgCA: Do you have anything written about the Coro a La Vela stamps?
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Will & SforgCa Thanks for the input! I suspected as much.
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SForgCa: Thanks... Nice pictures.
Are those pieces yours? The orange "Correo de Coro a la Vela y viceversa" is a variety of the "regular" where the lower star is left aligned. It is less common than the already rare regular centered star so congrats! This variety has not been listed until very very recently. I was the proud lucky one who "discover" it
The so-called "palomitas" issues (Pidgeons) are, in my humble opinion reprints in more than 90% of the cases and, as far as I know, there's no way to tell them from the original ones using direct examination (naked eye or magnification.)
I've the feeling that the only way to tell them apart would be to use an spectrometry on the ink used to print the designs (why? Because the same papers and cliches were used on the reprints. I don't think the same ink was used in both printings.)
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Will
I obtained the stamps in an estate sale "many" years ago
I sold the issues some 10-15 years ago (a nice profit) - hence the images I kept for file.
I am aware that the one shown was not described in early catalogs and that there are at least 3 color variations - orange, yellow & blue
It appears that those on covers show no cancels??
These particular ship locals are not so much in my main interest so I am not really aware of the fine details regarding the asterisk position - only that it is described as varying but the few covers on auctions below seem to have the same location
I mentioned that I had not seen forgeries BUT I have seen a few sets of the others in the series for sale at unreasonably low prices and in very good condition so I suspect modern forgeries exist.
I have no information on the pigeon reprints. I have seen a "full Set" in great condition with the control cancel (in different colors ?) for prices upwards of $700 and some singles for $25. Based on the numbers available, reprints would be a good conclusion.
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Sorry folks, I'm not sure what's the best forum to post "thanks!" so I'll do it here. moderator, sorry to bug, feel free to move it to an adequate place!
Thank you bobgggg for that nice cinderella! I really appreciate it!
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Bump!
Just received another Clara Rothe in the mail:
Too bad about the clipped corner, but this is the only example of this stamp I've ever seen, in years of looking for them. It's genuine. Hallmarks are the small round ornament on the top of the crown (missing on the fakes) and the gradual shading of the sky behind the ship. Also, the Danish flag has a distinctive cross, unlike the fakes.
It's also the first "REALES" version of the Clara Rothe to enter my collection. Also printed were the 1/2 real blue, 1 real orange-red, and 2 reales mauve. The stamp was also printed in 1/2, 1, 2, and 3 centavos, all in black.
Some history on this issue in another topic, here:
Clara Rothe history
Enjoy!
-Paul
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My collection of these Venezuelan LaGuaira issues ...
Fairly sure a few are forgeries ...
Sorry for pic quality, but I currently don't have a scanner.
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I'll give you a few hints, philatelia.
Top two rows are the "Centavo" issue. There were two issues, 1864 and 1868-1869, and 5 denominations of each (1/2 centavo through 4 centavos). There are many forgeries of these issues, and the image is not good enough to tell what you have. There were 4 or 5 transfer types of each denomination and in each issue.
Middle two rows are the "Waterlow" printings. These were of a single issue, in 1864. There are 5 transfer types each of the Medio Real and Dos Reales, distinguished by subtle differences in the designs. The two stamps with the "O" cancellations are fakes. Now, on the fakes, look at the last S in SAN TOMAS. If the top curve of the S has a dip in it, it's a fake. It almost looks like a "5". Look at that S on other stamps in the two middle rows to compare. The green Dos Reales stamp that is cancelled has had its perforations trimmed off, but it looks like it has a genuine cancellation.
Bottom two rows are the "Jesurun" issue of 1869. There were 4 transfer types of both the Medio Real and Dos Reales. There was a reprint of this issue in 1876, and 5 transfer types of each denomination. There were many forgeries of this stamp and I think all of the cancelled stamps in this issue that you have are forgeries. The Type II forgery has only a single horizontal line crossing the second J below the ship. That's the easiest one to spot.
I am close to completing a reference collection of all these transfer types, and will post some reference images sometime...
-Paul
PS, My reference is The Private Ship Letter Stamps of the World, Part 1: The Caribbean by S. Ringstrom and H.E. Tester.
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The questions on the La Guaira might be answered HERE
https://stampforgeries.blogspot.com/2020/12/la-guaira-ship-mail.html
And on the Clara Rothe HERE
https://stampforgeries.blogspot.com/2021/03/clara-rothe-private-mail.html
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Yes, the stampforgeries site is a very good reference for the La Guiara Centavo series, even better than Ringstrom and Tester.
Determining the transfer types can be tedious, but extremely rewarding, like a puzzle! The Centavo series sheets had 24 positions (6x4), and it is quite possible to plate individual stamps. The design variations that allow you to plate a stamp also give you assurance that it's genuine.
To me, distinguishing genuine from fake Clara Rothes is fairly simple.
-Paul
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WOW! Thank you for the excellent analysis of this collection! Greatly appreciated
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11:27:44am
I am an enthusiastic participant in any discussion of 19th century Caribbean postal history, so I'm cranking up another thread with this posting:
It's my collection of the earliest series of the La Guaira-Puerto Cabello-St Thomas packet, which was initiated in July, 1864.
The top row are all genuine, the bottom row are all forgeries. There seem to be as many forgeries in the marketplace as genuine stamps. Perhaps the definitive reference for these stamps is The Private Ship Letter Stamps of the World, Part 1 The Caribbean by Ringstrom and Tester (copyright unknown). More than half the pages of this 160-page book are devoted to this one packet line, and there is a very comprehensive and descriptive listing of all the forgeries.
Let the party begin!
-Paul
PS, Show us your Lady McLeod!
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Here are the only 2 I have. I am under the impression they are genuine, as i have read that forgeries of the serpentine perforation issues are not known.
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Some helpful links
http://www.mostlyclassics.net/philatelic/StThomasEtcShipLocalStamps.pdf
http://www.jaysmith.com/Lists/Danish-West-Indies/Danish-West-Indies-Shipping-Company-Stamps-St.-Thomas-La-Guaira-Puerto-Cabello.html
Don
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09:44:54am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Thanks, Don, for the nice posting!
Again, in reference to the book I list at the top of this posting, it appears that your stamps are both from the local printings, done by Felix Rasco of Caracas rather than Waterlow of London. Rasco used two different perforations, including the saw tooth that your stamps have. There are design features that indicate that the Medio Real stamp is from Stone II, 1866. Stone II printings of the Dos Reales stamp have a prominent dot of color in the middle of the foresail, which seems to be missing from your stamp, although the cancellation possibly obscures this area, as it does the area around the tail of the Q, which is also an important distinguishing feature between Stones I and II.
Very nice used examples!
The red Medio Real and green Dos Reales stamps were used on mail from Venezuela to St Thomas. These were also printed in blue (1/2) and orange (2) for use on mail from St Thomas to Venezuela.
I did not see any reference to forgeries of the local printings. I will follow this posting later with some examples of variants of these stamps.
-Paul
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
"There are design features that indicate that the Medio Real stamp is from Stone II, 1866"
Do the numerals in the corners change with the year of printing? As all of the stamps show the 1864 date.
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05:32:15pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Thanks for your reply, sheepshanks!
Answer is "no". The 6 and 4 motifs (for 1864) are universal in this issue, regardless of the actual year of issue (September, 1866 for the Stone II printing of the Medio Real; January 1866 for the Dos Reales, Stone II), or the denomination.
About the only design feature that distinguishes Stone I from Stone II in the Medio Real issue is the presence or absence of the tail on the Q of "PAQUETE". For the Dos Reales issues, an additional feature is the dot in the middle of the foresail, present in the Stone II printings only. This gets more complicated however, as one researcher has asserted that at least four different stones for each value were used during the various printings. The reference I have does not provide enough detail to absolutely distinguish between these stones.
I find issues such as this one extremely compelling from a research perspective. Another such issue that readily comes to mind is the US Pony Express issues.
-Paul
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01:59:18pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Here are the CENTAVOS issues:
(* Note 1868 1C black/purple is kinda of a mystery to me... looks like a Type IV but it doesn't show any line over the numeral. Any idea?)
Also... Found this directly from google, not sure which page links to it so sorry for direct linking to it:
https://www.davidfeldman.com/wp-content/uploads/items_treated_pdf/2015/11/144451_278961_1448018304.pdf
(The REALES issues sections is pretty good... But the CENTAVOS section is terrible! full of fakes)
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03:44:52pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Would this stamp fall into this category, or is it just a cinderella or fantasy stamp
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06:45:10pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Wonderful thread on an obscure topic, thanks for posting
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
bobgggg
This is a Venezuela Cinderella similar to a France Queen Mary Ship
The Carribean Private mail ships included
Trinidad The Lady McLeod
St. Thomas-La Guaira-Puerto Cabello
Coro-La Vela Venezuela
St. Thomas-Porto Rico, Clara Rothe
St. Lucia Steam Conveyance Limited
The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company
The Hamburg American Packet Company
The Central American Steamship Company
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02:51:24pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
@bobgggg That's a venezuelan vignette... that I'm missing So if you don't need it, let me know.
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Here are the ones I've managed to aquire over the years.
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01:53:45am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Sorry Mitch, I think the entire first row are fakes.
Haven't check the rest.
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01:55:59am
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Well, to be honest, i am seeing the image in my phone. I'm not sure about the 1c.
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
In the first row
#1 Common crude forgery
#2 Genuine less common Type II
#3 Forg. no dot after CENTAVO
#4 Forg. no dot after CENTAVO
The other appear fine but there are different die types in the mix
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12:29:38pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Off-topic: SForgCA: Do you have anything written about the Coro a La Vela stamps?
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Will & SforgCa Thanks for the input! I suspected as much.
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10:35:42pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
SForgCa: Thanks... Nice pictures.
Are those pieces yours? The orange "Correo de Coro a la Vela y viceversa" is a variety of the "regular" where the lower star is left aligned. It is less common than the already rare regular centered star so congrats! This variety has not been listed until very very recently. I was the proud lucky one who "discover" it
The so-called "palomitas" issues (Pidgeons) are, in my humble opinion reprints in more than 90% of the cases and, as far as I know, there's no way to tell them from the original ones using direct examination (naked eye or magnification.)
I've the feeling that the only way to tell them apart would be to use an spectrometry on the ink used to print the designs (why? Because the same papers and cliches were used on the reprints. I don't think the same ink was used in both printings.)
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Will
I obtained the stamps in an estate sale "many" years ago
I sold the issues some 10-15 years ago (a nice profit) - hence the images I kept for file.
I am aware that the one shown was not described in early catalogs and that there are at least 3 color variations - orange, yellow & blue
It appears that those on covers show no cancels??
These particular ship locals are not so much in my main interest so I am not really aware of the fine details regarding the asterisk position - only that it is described as varying but the few covers on auctions below seem to have the same location
I mentioned that I had not seen forgeries BUT I have seen a few sets of the others in the series for sale at unreasonably low prices and in very good condition so I suspect modern forgeries exist.
I have no information on the pigeon reprints. I have seen a "full Set" in great condition with the control cancel (in different colors ?) for prices upwards of $700 and some singles for $25. Based on the numbers available, reprints would be a good conclusion.
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03:19:50pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Sorry folks, I'm not sure what's the best forum to post "thanks!" so I'll do it here. moderator, sorry to bug, feel free to move it to an adequate place!
Thank you bobgggg for that nice cinderella! I really appreciate it!
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09:08:52pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Bump!
Just received another Clara Rothe in the mail:
Too bad about the clipped corner, but this is the only example of this stamp I've ever seen, in years of looking for them. It's genuine. Hallmarks are the small round ornament on the top of the crown (missing on the fakes) and the gradual shading of the sky behind the ship. Also, the Danish flag has a distinctive cross, unlike the fakes.
It's also the first "REALES" version of the Clara Rothe to enter my collection. Also printed were the 1/2 real blue, 1 real orange-red, and 2 reales mauve. The stamp was also printed in 1/2, 1, 2, and 3 centavos, all in black.
Some history on this issue in another topic, here:
Clara Rothe history
Enjoy!
-Paul
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
My collection of these Venezuelan LaGuaira issues ...
Fairly sure a few are forgeries ...
Sorry for pic quality, but I currently don't have a scanner.
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03:55:07pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
I'll give you a few hints, philatelia.
Top two rows are the "Centavo" issue. There were two issues, 1864 and 1868-1869, and 5 denominations of each (1/2 centavo through 4 centavos). There are many forgeries of these issues, and the image is not good enough to tell what you have. There were 4 or 5 transfer types of each denomination and in each issue.
Middle two rows are the "Waterlow" printings. These were of a single issue, in 1864. There are 5 transfer types each of the Medio Real and Dos Reales, distinguished by subtle differences in the designs. The two stamps with the "O" cancellations are fakes. Now, on the fakes, look at the last S in SAN TOMAS. If the top curve of the S has a dip in it, it's a fake. It almost looks like a "5". Look at that S on other stamps in the two middle rows to compare. The green Dos Reales stamp that is cancelled has had its perforations trimmed off, but it looks like it has a genuine cancellation.
Bottom two rows are the "Jesurun" issue of 1869. There were 4 transfer types of both the Medio Real and Dos Reales. There was a reprint of this issue in 1876, and 5 transfer types of each denomination. There were many forgeries of this stamp and I think all of the cancelled stamps in this issue that you have are forgeries. The Type II forgery has only a single horizontal line crossing the second J below the ship. That's the easiest one to spot.
I am close to completing a reference collection of all these transfer types, and will post some reference images sometime...
-Paul
PS, My reference is The Private Ship Letter Stamps of the World, Part 1: The Caribbean by S. Ringstrom and H.E. Tester.
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
The questions on the La Guaira might be answered HERE
https://stampforgeries.blogspot.com/2020/12/la-guaira-ship-mail.html
And on the Clara Rothe HERE
https://stampforgeries.blogspot.com/2021/03/clara-rothe-private-mail.html
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09:19:54pm
re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
Yes, the stampforgeries site is a very good reference for the La Guiara Centavo series, even better than Ringstrom and Tester.
Determining the transfer types can be tedious, but extremely rewarding, like a puzzle! The Centavo series sheets had 24 positions (6x4), and it is quite possible to plate individual stamps. The design variations that allow you to plate a stamp also give you assurance that it's genuine.
To me, distinguishing genuine from fake Clara Rothes is fairly simple.
-Paul
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re: Private Ship Letter Stamps: Caribbean
WOW! Thank you for the excellent analysis of this collection! Greatly appreciated
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