Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Subway Stamp Shop had a mention on their web site for "dealer aids" which sounds like they used to have something there but the reference is now missing from their web page.
While I might be able to make them it would be interesting to see some alternatives where someone has had some experience refining a design based on usage experience. In particular in keeping the weight down yet keeping the units both attractive and functional. Not sure that I will ever need them but they are definitely interesting not least as a mechanism for storage of duplicates with the idea of eventual sale/dispersal.
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I had a friend (long departed) who bought a large number of old wooden library index card file cabinets at an auction to raise money for renovation to his local library to store all his 102 card in. It was impressive as he had a gazillion stamps He was holding in them! His stamp room looked like an old library.
You can find such cabinets for sale in junk/antique shops.
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Wood is naturally acidic and as such is not a good choice for items that can be damaged by an acidic environment (i.e. stamps). This includes cigar boxes; some of the most toned stamps I have ever seen came out of cigar boxes.
Don
Edit; If the wood is sealed very, very well, it would lessen the chance of forming an acidic environment.
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Remember the cassette tapes that were the audio go-to before CDs? I found out they are virtually the same height and width as a 102 card. I was cleaning out the basement and found three old storage cases for cassettes and wondered what they could be used for when the light bulb went on. Tried a 102 card - fit fine. I'm slowly converting my disorganized mess into an organized mess Each drawer holds 500 102s, three drawers to a case = 1500 cards per case, 4500 total.
Added - I saw cassette cases like these at a Goodwill store - you might find some in outlets like that.
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Nice reuse of the cassette tape boxes. I remember seeing those in stores and some friends had them in college.
Good advice on the nature of wood. I will definitely do some research on the types of wood and maybe do some testing with litmus strips if I decide to build them. Many higher end trunks like Louis Vuitton, Rhino Tech, and similar seem to use something like a Baltic plywood so perhaps it is naturally more stable. The units that I helped move to help out dealers during take down after the last stamp show that I attended seemed to be made of a blond plywood which looked like the Baltic plywood that I have seen used to make some types of boxes and model train layouts.
The 102 cards are in the red boxes so perhaps they provide protection as well. There may be an additional factor in that perhaps the inside where the boxes touch the plywood gets sealed as well. Thinking it out and will find ways to do some experimental testing before I commit to it too much assuming I build them and cannot rely on prior build experience.
I have thought some about potential design characteristics. Something that could be stacked together somewhat like a barrister's bookcase offers a lot of potential. A thin insert on the bottom like the mylar clear sheets used as interleaves between album pages might be an idea as well. Designing the box so that there is a raised front, i.e. a bit of a tilt from front to back, would provide some additional protection against the red boxes sliding out of the container and might be useful when a cover is not in place. Have to think about such things in case of earthquakes according to my wife who constantly plans for such eventualities through her interest in CERT!
The nicest boxes that were used on the units that I helped move out to vehicles had stacked boxes, or perhaps they were just cabinets for the red boxes, with heavy duty castors underneath. I checked out his web site at http://www.stampart.us/ after the show and he indicates that he travels to 40+ stamp shows a year! He moved a huge number of the boxes/cases in a very nice commercial Sprinter van to the show with a really large range of material. He was the dealer that I acquired the Van Diemen's Land stamp that I mentioned in my Smithsonian album posting as a forerunner name for Tasmania.
I remember the library card catalog at the college, actually installed Sirsi Dynix computer based software for the library and arranged funding for the computer system it ran on when I was the IT Director at a college years ago. Worked with it long enough that I did the original setup and then migrated all of the data to new hardware years later. We stored the original card catalog resources in the basement of the library but I don't know if since then they finally disposed of them. The cards had been in the catalog drawers for decades without any deterioration so obviously the vendor knew something about how to construct them to be stable in contact with paper cards.
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"…We stored the original card catalog resources in the basement of the library but I don't know if since then they finally disposed of them. The cards had been in the catalog drawers for decades without any deterioration so obviously the vendor knew something about how to construct them to be stable in contact with paper cards"
Understood but that is anecdotal. I have seen plenty of stamps still in Crystal Mounts that are in good shape but that does not change the fact that Crystal Mounts can damage stamps over time.
Consider the science here regarding Lignin. Lignin is the organic part of the plant cell which gives a plant the strength it needs to grow tall. The more Lignin, the stronger the rigidity (think trees). So some of us seek to use archival paper without any Lignin (others use paper with Lignin in it but just hope and gamble that that there is enough buffer in it keep the paper from turning acidic over time). But then we store the stamps and paper inside a wooden (or cardboard) enclosure that is filled with Lignin? This does not make a lot of sense to me, why risk it? To get paper to tone does not require direct contact with something acidic; the acidification of paper can occur due to an atmospheric environment.
So using anything that is acidic around the stamps; adhesives, tapes, boxes, enclosures, album slipcases, etc. can form an acidic environment. Can you dodge the acid bullet if you highly manage the other ambient environmental conditions (notably relative humidity and temperature)? Probably. But who among us can guarantee that our albums and stamps will never get moved into a poor environment? Will your family and heirs treat your stuff the way you do or know enough how to store your material properly?
Lastly, there are some woods which are less acidic than others. And as mentioned wood can be sealed well to prevent an acidic environment. No matter what we are doing, I 100% agree with your comment that we should occasionally be testing the pH of our material. But this testing is not done with simple litmus test strips. For paper you typically use a reagent pen like this https://www.amazon.com/Lineco-Testing-Paper-Paperboard-Products/dp/B000KNJCSS/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1548834335&sr=8-17&keywords=pH+test+pen
It is easy to test/mark the back of a 102 card or along the inside edge of an album page (next to binder hole where it cannot be seen). Note: the pH pen mark is permanent so do not use it to test a stamp itself. We should test things in our collections every few months since acidification can start at any time. But testing and monitoring the pH of the material that surrounds our cherished holdings should always be a part of our stewardship. It is cheap and easy to do, why gamble?
Don
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Talked with a few dealers who had the wood cases for their 102 red card boxes for store displays and for making it easy transporting items to stamp shows. In each case they had either built the cases themselves or had a local person with carpentry/cabinetry backgrounds make them or both depending on their available time when additions were needed. Interestingly some of the red boxes for one dealer showed a wear level which indicated quite a lot of usage. He indicated that he goes to between 40 and 45 shows a year!
The cases had a slot on the front of the case where they could slide a thinner cover to keep the boxes from spilling out of the case during transport. None considered the cases to be an issue from an archival storage issue since the stamps are stored in relatively inert 102 stock cards which are themselves in the red boxes so contact is minimized. Also, none leave the storage boxes enclosed while they are in their store fronts which minimizes any impact as well from the red boxes being enclosed within the wood boxes. Several have used the approach up to a couple of decades. Of course, the sheer fact that they are commercial enterprises guarantees that there is turnover of the contents and that they are fairly frequently being moved which alleviates some issues.
On the other hand the Queen's Own Stamps book shows the stamp storage albums used by King George V through Queen Elizabeth II and they are in stamp albums stored on metal book cases in their vault room (at least partially to support the weight of the albums which are not inconsiderable).
On a similar vein recently I had the opportunity to visit a local collector's home who has a large number of Yvert and Tellier albums which are HUGE! He has a mammoth display cabinet similar to a large china cabinet with a glass front containing over forty of the albums. They are stored where there is never any opportunity for direct sunlight and the area has reasonable ground floor ventilation as well. I was able to examine the albums and check them for any sign of discoloring of the bindings from contact with the cabinet shelves as well as any impact on the album pages themselves and no impact was visible.
I do know that when the library building was replaced at a small college that I worked at for a long time the new building used metal shelves rather than the wood shelves that had been in use in the old building but this was done mostly due to the physical weight of the books and to provide additional safety for the collection by reducing at least somewhat the amount of combustible materials in the library. Both buildings had relatively elaborate fire alarm systems but no fire suppression facilities.
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One of our members in here mentioned keeping stamps in "Crystal Mounts". I have heard both pro and con regarding these. For me personally, I might use them for 'used' stamps only? I have a few of these ,but prefer either Hawid, Scott or Showgard. Out of curiosity, what do most of the members think of the "Crystal Mounts"? Also, are they still being produced?
Personally, I find them a little 'awkward'? My opinion of course.
Chimo
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i bought a ton of Crystal mounts on sale long ago. worst purchase of my life. I gave them away.
they are horrible to use, and worse to encounter holding stamps. there's nothing good to be said about them.
if you want more details, ask
and i'm hardly a stamp purist
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The problem with Crystal Mounts is that the material they are made out of tends to attract humidity. This causes the gum, on stamp with gum, to glaze. For stamps without gum, the paper is subject to humidity, and can easily develop foxing.
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"...None considered the cases to be an issue from an archival storage issue since the stamps are stored in relatively inert 102 stock cards which are themselves in the red boxes so contact is minimized..."
Our hobby needs more education regarding archival materials. Wood is acidic, direct contact with the wood is not required to cause damage to paper stored around it. Paper is a sponge, it is constantly exchanging air and moisture from the atmosphere around it. From the Library of Congress regarding book and document preservation
"When purchasing new shelving, metal shelves are preferable over wood shelves because the acids present in wood can migrate into paper and books and cause deterioration. Existing wood shelves that cannot be replaced can be lined with a barrier such as polyester film, corrugated polyethylene or polypropylene board, metal foil laminate, acrylic sheet, or glass..."
Wood cases or shelves are not going to cause an issue if;
- Stamps or albums are only stored for a short period (i.e. a few years)
- the environment is cool, dry and stable; temperatures held around a constant 70°F with a relative humidity held between 30% and 50%
I assume that most dealers do not really care about archival issues, they turn over inventory so it never comes into play.
Don
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I have noticed some rather interesting wood cases for 102 card red boxes at the last couple of stamps shows that I attended and wondered if there is any online resource for acquiring these. Some of the units were set up to be stackable with castors and interlocks for bringing them into a show while others were simply cases for the red boxes with a slide-on cover for the front to keep the boxes from coming out during transport.
Subway Stamp Shop had a mention on their web site for "dealer aids" which sounds like they used to have something there but the reference is now missing from their web page.
While I might be able to make them it would be interesting to see some alternatives where someone has had some experience refining a design based on usage experience. In particular in keeping the weight down yet keeping the units both attractive and functional. Not sure that I will ever need them but they are definitely interesting not least as a mechanism for storage of duplicates with the idea of eventual sale/dispersal.
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this post
re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
I had a friend (long departed) who bought a large number of old wooden library index card file cabinets at an auction to raise money for renovation to his local library to store all his 102 card in. It was impressive as he had a gazillion stamps He was holding in them! His stamp room looked like an old library.
You can find such cabinets for sale in junk/antique shops.
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re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
Wood is naturally acidic and as such is not a good choice for items that can be damaged by an acidic environment (i.e. stamps). This includes cigar boxes; some of the most toned stamps I have ever seen came out of cigar boxes.
Don
Edit; If the wood is sealed very, very well, it would lessen the chance of forming an acidic environment.
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08:45:39pm
re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
Remember the cassette tapes that were the audio go-to before CDs? I found out they are virtually the same height and width as a 102 card. I was cleaning out the basement and found three old storage cases for cassettes and wondered what they could be used for when the light bulb went on. Tried a 102 card - fit fine. I'm slowly converting my disorganized mess into an organized mess Each drawer holds 500 102s, three drawers to a case = 1500 cards per case, 4500 total.
Added - I saw cassette cases like these at a Goodwill store - you might find some in outlets like that.
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re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
Nice reuse of the cassette tape boxes. I remember seeing those in stores and some friends had them in college.
Good advice on the nature of wood. I will definitely do some research on the types of wood and maybe do some testing with litmus strips if I decide to build them. Many higher end trunks like Louis Vuitton, Rhino Tech, and similar seem to use something like a Baltic plywood so perhaps it is naturally more stable. The units that I helped move to help out dealers during take down after the last stamp show that I attended seemed to be made of a blond plywood which looked like the Baltic plywood that I have seen used to make some types of boxes and model train layouts.
The 102 cards are in the red boxes so perhaps they provide protection as well. There may be an additional factor in that perhaps the inside where the boxes touch the plywood gets sealed as well. Thinking it out and will find ways to do some experimental testing before I commit to it too much assuming I build them and cannot rely on prior build experience.
I have thought some about potential design characteristics. Something that could be stacked together somewhat like a barrister's bookcase offers a lot of potential. A thin insert on the bottom like the mylar clear sheets used as interleaves between album pages might be an idea as well. Designing the box so that there is a raised front, i.e. a bit of a tilt from front to back, would provide some additional protection against the red boxes sliding out of the container and might be useful when a cover is not in place. Have to think about such things in case of earthquakes according to my wife who constantly plans for such eventualities through her interest in CERT!
The nicest boxes that were used on the units that I helped move out to vehicles had stacked boxes, or perhaps they were just cabinets for the red boxes, with heavy duty castors underneath. I checked out his web site at http://www.stampart.us/ after the show and he indicates that he travels to 40+ stamp shows a year! He moved a huge number of the boxes/cases in a very nice commercial Sprinter van to the show with a really large range of material. He was the dealer that I acquired the Van Diemen's Land stamp that I mentioned in my Smithsonian album posting as a forerunner name for Tasmania.
I remember the library card catalog at the college, actually installed Sirsi Dynix computer based software for the library and arranged funding for the computer system it ran on when I was the IT Director at a college years ago. Worked with it long enough that I did the original setup and then migrated all of the data to new hardware years later. We stored the original card catalog resources in the basement of the library but I don't know if since then they finally disposed of them. The cards had been in the catalog drawers for decades without any deterioration so obviously the vendor knew something about how to construct them to be stable in contact with paper cards.
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re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
"…We stored the original card catalog resources in the basement of the library but I don't know if since then they finally disposed of them. The cards had been in the catalog drawers for decades without any deterioration so obviously the vendor knew something about how to construct them to be stable in contact with paper cards"
Understood but that is anecdotal. I have seen plenty of stamps still in Crystal Mounts that are in good shape but that does not change the fact that Crystal Mounts can damage stamps over time.
Consider the science here regarding Lignin. Lignin is the organic part of the plant cell which gives a plant the strength it needs to grow tall. The more Lignin, the stronger the rigidity (think trees). So some of us seek to use archival paper without any Lignin (others use paper with Lignin in it but just hope and gamble that that there is enough buffer in it keep the paper from turning acidic over time). But then we store the stamps and paper inside a wooden (or cardboard) enclosure that is filled with Lignin? This does not make a lot of sense to me, why risk it? To get paper to tone does not require direct contact with something acidic; the acidification of paper can occur due to an atmospheric environment.
So using anything that is acidic around the stamps; adhesives, tapes, boxes, enclosures, album slipcases, etc. can form an acidic environment. Can you dodge the acid bullet if you highly manage the other ambient environmental conditions (notably relative humidity and temperature)? Probably. But who among us can guarantee that our albums and stamps will never get moved into a poor environment? Will your family and heirs treat your stuff the way you do or know enough how to store your material properly?
Lastly, there are some woods which are less acidic than others. And as mentioned wood can be sealed well to prevent an acidic environment. No matter what we are doing, I 100% agree with your comment that we should occasionally be testing the pH of our material. But this testing is not done with simple litmus test strips. For paper you typically use a reagent pen like this https://www.amazon.com/Lineco-Testing-Paper-Paperboard-Products/dp/B000KNJCSS/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1548834335&sr=8-17&keywords=pH+test+pen
It is easy to test/mark the back of a 102 card or along the inside edge of an album page (next to binder hole where it cannot be seen). Note: the pH pen mark is permanent so do not use it to test a stamp itself. We should test things in our collections every few months since acidification can start at any time. But testing and monitoring the pH of the material that surrounds our cherished holdings should always be a part of our stewardship. It is cheap and easy to do, why gamble?
Don
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re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
Talked with a few dealers who had the wood cases for their 102 red card boxes for store displays and for making it easy transporting items to stamp shows. In each case they had either built the cases themselves or had a local person with carpentry/cabinetry backgrounds make them or both depending on their available time when additions were needed. Interestingly some of the red boxes for one dealer showed a wear level which indicated quite a lot of usage. He indicated that he goes to between 40 and 45 shows a year!
The cases had a slot on the front of the case where they could slide a thinner cover to keep the boxes from spilling out of the case during transport. None considered the cases to be an issue from an archival storage issue since the stamps are stored in relatively inert 102 stock cards which are themselves in the red boxes so contact is minimized. Also, none leave the storage boxes enclosed while they are in their store fronts which minimizes any impact as well from the red boxes being enclosed within the wood boxes. Several have used the approach up to a couple of decades. Of course, the sheer fact that they are commercial enterprises guarantees that there is turnover of the contents and that they are fairly frequently being moved which alleviates some issues.
On the other hand the Queen's Own Stamps book shows the stamp storage albums used by King George V through Queen Elizabeth II and they are in stamp albums stored on metal book cases in their vault room (at least partially to support the weight of the albums which are not inconsiderable).
On a similar vein recently I had the opportunity to visit a local collector's home who has a large number of Yvert and Tellier albums which are HUGE! He has a mammoth display cabinet similar to a large china cabinet with a glass front containing over forty of the albums. They are stored where there is never any opportunity for direct sunlight and the area has reasonable ground floor ventilation as well. I was able to examine the albums and check them for any sign of discoloring of the bindings from contact with the cabinet shelves as well as any impact on the album pages themselves and no impact was visible.
I do know that when the library building was replaced at a small college that I worked at for a long time the new building used metal shelves rather than the wood shelves that had been in use in the old building but this was done mostly due to the physical weight of the books and to provide additional safety for the collection by reducing at least somewhat the amount of combustible materials in the library. Both buildings had relatively elaborate fire alarm systems but no fire suppression facilities.
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re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
One of our members in here mentioned keeping stamps in "Crystal Mounts". I have heard both pro and con regarding these. For me personally, I might use them for 'used' stamps only? I have a few of these ,but prefer either Hawid, Scott or Showgard. Out of curiosity, what do most of the members think of the "Crystal Mounts"? Also, are they still being produced?
Personally, I find them a little 'awkward'? My opinion of course.
Chimo
Bujutsu
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re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
i bought a ton of Crystal mounts on sale long ago. worst purchase of my life. I gave them away.
they are horrible to use, and worse to encounter holding stamps. there's nothing good to be said about them.
if you want more details, ask
and i'm hardly a stamp purist
Login to Like
this post
re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
The problem with Crystal Mounts is that the material they are made out of tends to attract humidity. This causes the gum, on stamp with gum, to glaze. For stamps without gum, the paper is subject to humidity, and can easily develop foxing.
Login to Like
this post
re: Containers for 102 Card Red Boxes
"...None considered the cases to be an issue from an archival storage issue since the stamps are stored in relatively inert 102 stock cards which are themselves in the red boxes so contact is minimized..."
Our hobby needs more education regarding archival materials. Wood is acidic, direct contact with the wood is not required to cause damage to paper stored around it. Paper is a sponge, it is constantly exchanging air and moisture from the atmosphere around it. From the Library of Congress regarding book and document preservation
"When purchasing new shelving, metal shelves are preferable over wood shelves because the acids present in wood can migrate into paper and books and cause deterioration. Existing wood shelves that cannot be replaced can be lined with a barrier such as polyester film, corrugated polyethylene or polypropylene board, metal foil laminate, acrylic sheet, or glass..."
Wood cases or shelves are not going to cause an issue if;
- Stamps or albums are only stored for a short period (i.e. a few years)
- the environment is cool, dry and stable; temperatures held around a constant 70°F with a relative humidity held between 30% and 50%
I assume that most dealers do not really care about archival issues, they turn over inventory so it never comes into play.
Don
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