Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
REMEMBER THE RULES:
1. No Offices Abroad, Local Stamps, or Occupation stamps. Those go in last section.
2. All dates are stamp issuing dates (although Smithsonian was quite inconsistent, I tried to clean that up).
3. This is MY example of an expansion, for your consideration and comment. You may decide to go a totally different route. That's OK, and please tell us why.
North and South America - We covered this once before, but after working with Europe I decided to go back and take another look and there are a lot of changes to the Caribbean. Let's start with North America first:
CANADA
Changed Canada from "1851-Present" to "1868-Present" since first Dominion stamps not issued until 1868 (Canada #21). NOTE: Some may say it should be 1867-Present for Dominion of Canada, but in that case USA on the next page should begin 1776 or 1787 or 1789 (depending on your definition) instead of 1847 when the first stamp was issued.
Added space for British Province of Canada - pre-Dominion Ontario and Quebec (Canada #1-20).
Added a space for United Crown Colony of British Columbia and Vancouver Island.
Re-ordered entries to reflect order of entry into Dominion of Canada (ON/QC/NB/NS, BC, PEI, NL).
MEXICO
Added note to see page 125 for French Occupation. If this stamp was not already in the "Other Entities" section, I would have added it here. Rather ironic that CSA, recognized by almost no other country, was considered a precedent country, while Maximilian's reign in Mexico, invited by Mexican monarchists, was considered an occupation. Get ready for many such questionable calls!
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Hi Lars,
I'm keeping out of the Mexican Empire question!
However, I would include Bermuda here.
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I don't understand why Greenland is here? I guess the key question in your maps, is cultural/political vs purely geographical boundaries. When it is not clear and when in doubt, I would go by the first criteria (see my comments on Cyprus as well).
"Though physiographically a part of the continent of North America, Greenland has been politically and culturally associated with Europe (specifically Norway and Denmark, the colonial powers, as well as the nearby island of Iceland) for more than a millennium.
Sovereign state: Kingdom of Denmark
Capital and largest city: Nuuk; 64°10?N 51°4...
Religion: Church of Denm"
rrr...
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"I would include Bermuda here"
Well of COURSE Bermuda should go here! I caught that Smithsonian had Guatemala in the Caribbean, but I missed that they had Bermuda there, too. That should be fixed as well. Good catch.
"I don't understand why Greenland is here"
I tend to lean your direction, and was VERY close to moving Cyprus, as well, but decided to stay with the Smithsonian use of geography instead of culture/politics. I can see a valid argument either way. Everyone will need to decide for themselves if they tackle this, or a similar, project. You may be more pleased with what I decided on Asia/Oceania (or maybe not).
Great inputs!
At least I got Guatemala moved here from the Caribbean!
I added one more page to show where Bermuda was hiding out. There is now a pencil notation on that page to move Bermuda to North America with Canada and the US.
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Here I try to capture just a sample of the West Indies Federation stamps and list the countries that were a part of the Federation. There is also a Leeward Islands stamp shown. I used stamps from each country that were NOT in the range of the Leeward Islands or the West Indies Federation. Even though the Federation tried to have a common government, they seemed to keep their local currency.
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Hi Lars,
That's a great display of the Caribbean. 
I have just a few comments so far:
Antigua & Barbuda:
I suggest you include Barbuda as a predecessor.
Caribbean Netherlands:
When the postal operator changed in 2014 they started issuing separate stamps for the three islands of Bonaire, Saba and St Eustatius but I suggest they can be ignored here.
The stamps I've seen are still inscribed "Caribisch Nederland" along with the island name.
Grenada:
I suggest you include Grenadines of Grenada as a predecessor.
St Vincent:
I suggest you include Grenadines of St Vincent as a predecessor but ignore Bequia etc.
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Barbuda was not included by Smithsonian and I determined it to be a Local Stamp. I actually have a Barbuda stamp, and I plan to add another page to the Local section of BOB including that stamp, but I'd say that is a local stamp.
Grenadines are local stamps. I don't even plan to include them on my new Local Stamps page.
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I'm a little confused. The Grenadines and Barbuda are most definitely not local stamps.
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"The Grenadines and Barbuda are most definitely not local stamps."
Well then this warrants more research! Smithsonian didn't have Barbuda or either Grenadines in their pages, and I couldn't find where they were independent entities. Is there somewhere that I can learn more?
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I don't know what criteria Smithsonian uses, and I haven't followed the discussion closely enough to understand the scope and goal of your work, but these notes from the SG catalogue may be of use.
All issues from these areas are valid for international postage.
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I think the problem is the term "local stamp" is misleading. The best example in the U.S. would be the Kansas/Nebraska issues. Stamps were issued just for sale in Kansas and Nebraska, but there was no doubt those were US stamps valid for postage anywhere in the world. China did something similar for currency control. A local stamp doesn't mean it's only used for local service. A local stamp means it's only available (over the counter) in certain areas, but is good for any service the equivalent national stamp is good for.
Unless Barbuda or the Grenadines of Grenada or St. Vincent were stand-alone entities in their stamp issuing history - and that means separate colony, associated state, kingdom, or republic, the stamps they issue would be considered local stamps for Antigua or St. Vincent.
I hope I got that right!
Lars
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Lost in translation! In non-US English, a local stamp is a stamp not sanctioned by the national issuing authority, or a stamp that is only valid for use in a specific local area.
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"Lost in translation! In non-US English, a local stamp is a stamp not sanctioned by the national issuing authority, or a stamp that is only valid for use in a specific local area."
Fair enough! In the US we would call "a stamp not sanctioned by the national issuing authority" a Cinderella. The concept of "a stamp that is only valid for use in a specific local area" is a bit foreign to us, but we do know that "First Class" non-denominated stamps are not valid for international postage. It seems that we would agree that the China currency control issues were local issues.
I'm using the designations of the Smithsonian pages created from the Bill Gross exhibit. They use the term "Local Stamps". If there is a term that is more accurate, I am more than willing to entertain making a change to my pages. What would YOU call a stamp issued with a specific area name that is valid everywhere in the issuing authority, and abroad?
Lars
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What would I call it? A stamp.
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"What would I call it? A stamp."
Exactly! Not needed at all if you already had a country stamp. Just like I don't need to add a Kansas and Nebraska stamp to fully represent the US, the Barbuda and Grenadines stamps are not needed either. The Smithsonian album chose to feature a FEW of these stamps in a section of selected items at the end. They used the term Local Stamps. So far it sounds like my choices for a title to these selected items, such as a Grenadines stamp, are:
Local Stamps
Stamps
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And finally - SOUTH AMERICA. I changed the color from yellow to purple to make the pages more legible, but these are the Smithsonian pages with only 1 change - adding Constituent Country to Suriname.
Like Central America, we could come up with with a LOT of different governments and/or country names. The number of CIA and/or United Fruit Company sponsored coup d'etats would cause the number of stamp issuing entities to swell beyond reason. For countries with only one stamp, I had initially thought about 1 stamp for the "Banana Republic" and a second one when a stable republic emerged that was resistant to subtle influences by Cuba and the CIA in order to recognize their stablility. It worked (sort of) for some countries, but not so well for others. I wish there were a satisfactory treatment beyond "Republic since the beginning of stamps," but less than tripling or quadrupling the Central and South American countries.
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Hi Lars,
I have a few comments here mostly on Colombia:
Colombia:
You may with to consider the earlier names and political structures of the country before it was centralised as the Republic of Colombia in 1886:
- Grenadine Confederation with stamps from 1859
- United States of New Granada with stamps from 1861
- United States of Colombia with stamps from 1862
I'd be tempted to include the individual states as well.
If I were creating my own album I would also include the following although they are all of a local and/or non-governmental nature:
- La Guaira, the mailboat service based in Venezuela
- the general issues of the SCADTA airline, based in Colombia
and my favourite:
- Tierra del Fuego.
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Nigel,
I am finishing up my final thoughts on Europe and I will get to this next, but I was surprised you didn't suggest moving Falkland Islands to Antarctica.
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Hi Lars,
"I am finishing up my final thoughts on Europe and I will get to this next, but I was surprised you didn't suggest moving Falkland Islands to Antarctica. "
It's funny you should say this as I almost made this suggestion!
I wouldn't expect many collectors to include Tierra del Fuego (and fas as I know it's not in the Scott catalogue) but here are two of my stamps (SG 1):
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"It's funny you should say this as I almost made this suggestion! (moving Falklands to Antarctica)"
I am really considering it. I've been trying to lay out Antarctica because you are right that it make no sense as Smithsonian presented it, and moving Falklands there may help out a lot. My personal problem with it is that Falklands will forever be linked to Argentina in my mind. The jury is still out on that one.
"the general issues of the SCADTA airline, based in Colombia"
What a blast from the past! I still remember that one! When I got Keijo's list of thousands of stamp issuing entities over 5 years ago I went through it one by one looking for things Smithsonian overlooked that I wanted to include. I came up with well over 100 additional items and that list is still growing. I remember seeing SCADTA airline and thinking two things:
1. That CLEARLY doesn't belong in a list of COUNTRY issues
2. I simply HAVE to find out what THIS is all about.
Those stamps are actually listed in the Scott Specialized catalog of US, right after the Air Post Semi-Official stamps! I am considering including one of those in my US collection as a "selected item". Kind of a BOB of BOB, if you will. I'm glad you reminded me!
I will research Columbia and respond to that later. I want to give more thought to moving Falklands to Antarctica so I will probably finalize Africa next.
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"My personal problem with it is that Falklands will forever be linked to Argentina in my mind. The jury is still out on that one."
Without getting political, the Falklands are not, and never have been, Argentinian territory! They have been under British administration since before Argentina was a country.....
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"Without getting political, the Falklands are not, and never have been, Argentinian territory!"
My comment wasn't based on politics but history. I remember when Argentina invaded and the UK responded by sending a task force to liberate the islands. I remember Vulcan bombers and Exocet missles. It was very big news here, too! The Smithsonian album has the Falkland Islands in South America, but it may make more sense to place it in Antarctica. I was just saying that the Falkland Islands War historically tied the Falklands, the UK, and Argentina together in my mind. In Asia I moved Iran to be in the same section as Iraq because those are also inextricably linked in my experience with history. I am certainly not endorsing any claim Argentina made toward what they called the Malvinas.
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The Falklands appears in the category "Atlantic islands" in many searches. Does the Smithsonian system require placement by continent or geographic region?
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"Does the Smithsonian system require placement by continent or geographic region?"
Just to be clear, we are talking about the way continents are laid out in the "Stamp for Every Country" album that Smithsonian offers, via PDF, based on the Bill Gross exhibit of the same name in the Smithsonian Museum.
I would argue there are three considerations:
1. Continent
2. Geographic Region
3. Geo-political area
The Falklands would likely be:
1. Continent - South America
2. Geographic Region - South America (probably)
3. Geo-political area - Maybe Antarctica!
Cyprus is fun:
1. Continent - Asia
2. Geographic Region - borderline
3. Geo-political area - Europe (except for TRNC)
I have recently changed my mind and agreed that Greenland should be moved from North America to Europe, even though Smithsonian has it in N.A.
So far, Smithsonian has sided with continent every time, but if we examine the boundary between Asia and Oceania, I don't think that holds.
I am not trying to defend the way the Smithsonian pages are presented. I am only asking for compelling evidence to reject what they have.
And all inquiries and challenges are welcome!
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Dave,
Back to the topic of Local Stamps: If you wanted to put together a collection of pages that included what I think we agree are local stamps (e.g. China Currency Control), PLUS stamps that may APPEAR to be local, but aren't (hopefully I don't need to give examples), what would you prefer:
1. LOCAL STAMPS
2. LOCAL AND QUASI-LOCAL STAMPS
3. LOCAL AND FAUX-LOCAL STAMPS
4. Other - describe
I want something descriptive and inclusive because I have several other examples I want to add, but the term Local Stamps obviously creates confusion.
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Here is my first cut at an expanded Smithsonian "One For Every Country" Collection.
REMEMBER THE RULES:
1. No Offices Abroad, Local Stamps, or Occupation stamps. Those go in last section.
2. All dates are stamp issuing dates (although Smithsonian was quite inconsistent, I tried to clean that up).
3. This is MY example of an expansion, for your consideration and comment. You may decide to go a totally different route. That's OK, and please tell us why.
North and South America - We covered this once before, but after working with Europe I decided to go back and take another look and there are a lot of changes to the Caribbean. Let's start with North America first:
CANADA
Changed Canada from "1851-Present" to "1868-Present" since first Dominion stamps not issued until 1868 (Canada #21). NOTE: Some may say it should be 1867-Present for Dominion of Canada, but in that case USA on the next page should begin 1776 or 1787 or 1789 (depending on your definition) instead of 1847 when the first stamp was issued.
Added space for British Province of Canada - pre-Dominion Ontario and Quebec (Canada #1-20).
Added a space for United Crown Colony of British Columbia and Vancouver Island.
Re-ordered entries to reflect order of entry into Dominion of Canada (ON/QC/NB/NS, BC, PEI, NL).
MEXICO
Added note to see page 125 for French Occupation. If this stamp was not already in the "Other Entities" section, I would have added it here. Rather ironic that CSA, recognized by almost no other country, was considered a precedent country, while Maximilian's reign in Mexico, invited by Mexican monarchists, was considered an occupation. Get ready for many such questionable calls!
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Hi Lars,
I'm keeping out of the Mexican Empire question!
However, I would include Bermuda here.
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Retired Ap. Book Mod, Pres Golden Gate Stamp Club, Hi Tech Consultant
14 Mar 2019
12:47:43pm
re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
I don't understand why Greenland is here? I guess the key question in your maps, is cultural/political vs purely geographical boundaries. When it is not clear and when in doubt, I would go by the first criteria (see my comments on Cyprus as well).
"Though physiographically a part of the continent of North America, Greenland has been politically and culturally associated with Europe (specifically Norway and Denmark, the colonial powers, as well as the nearby island of Iceland) for more than a millennium.
Sovereign state: Kingdom of Denmark
Capital and largest city: Nuuk; 64°10?N 51°4...
Religion: Church of Denm"
rrr...
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"I would include Bermuda here"
Well of COURSE Bermuda should go here! I caught that Smithsonian had Guatemala in the Caribbean, but I missed that they had Bermuda there, too. That should be fixed as well. Good catch.
"I don't understand why Greenland is here"
I tend to lean your direction, and was VERY close to moving Cyprus, as well, but decided to stay with the Smithsonian use of geography instead of culture/politics. I can see a valid argument either way. Everyone will need to decide for themselves if they tackle this, or a similar, project. You may be more pleased with what I decided on Asia/Oceania (or maybe not).
Great inputs!
At least I got Guatemala moved here from the Caribbean!
I added one more page to show where Bermuda was hiding out. There is now a pencil notation on that page to move Bermuda to North America with Canada and the US.
Login to Like
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Here I try to capture just a sample of the West Indies Federation stamps and list the countries that were a part of the Federation. There is also a Leeward Islands stamp shown. I used stamps from each country that were NOT in the range of the Leeward Islands or the West Indies Federation. Even though the Federation tried to have a common government, they seemed to keep their local currency.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Hi Lars,
That's a great display of the Caribbean.
I have just a few comments so far:
Antigua & Barbuda:
I suggest you include Barbuda as a predecessor.
Caribbean Netherlands:
When the postal operator changed in 2014 they started issuing separate stamps for the three islands of Bonaire, Saba and St Eustatius but I suggest they can be ignored here.
The stamps I've seen are still inscribed "Caribisch Nederland" along with the island name.
Grenada:
I suggest you include Grenadines of Grenada as a predecessor.
St Vincent:
I suggest you include Grenadines of St Vincent as a predecessor but ignore Bequia etc.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Barbuda was not included by Smithsonian and I determined it to be a Local Stamp. I actually have a Barbuda stamp, and I plan to add another page to the Local section of BOB including that stamp, but I'd say that is a local stamp.
Grenadines are local stamps. I don't even plan to include them on my new Local Stamps page.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
I'm a little confused. The Grenadines and Barbuda are most definitely not local stamps.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"The Grenadines and Barbuda are most definitely not local stamps."
Well then this warrants more research! Smithsonian didn't have Barbuda or either Grenadines in their pages, and I couldn't find where they were independent entities. Is there somewhere that I can learn more?
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
I don't know what criteria Smithsonian uses, and I haven't followed the discussion closely enough to understand the scope and goal of your work, but these notes from the SG catalogue may be of use.
All issues from these areas are valid for international postage.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
I think the problem is the term "local stamp" is misleading. The best example in the U.S. would be the Kansas/Nebraska issues. Stamps were issued just for sale in Kansas and Nebraska, but there was no doubt those were US stamps valid for postage anywhere in the world. China did something similar for currency control. A local stamp doesn't mean it's only used for local service. A local stamp means it's only available (over the counter) in certain areas, but is good for any service the equivalent national stamp is good for.
Unless Barbuda or the Grenadines of Grenada or St. Vincent were stand-alone entities in their stamp issuing history - and that means separate colony, associated state, kingdom, or republic, the stamps they issue would be considered local stamps for Antigua or St. Vincent.
I hope I got that right!
Lars
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Lost in translation! In non-US English, a local stamp is a stamp not sanctioned by the national issuing authority, or a stamp that is only valid for use in a specific local area.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"Lost in translation! In non-US English, a local stamp is a stamp not sanctioned by the national issuing authority, or a stamp that is only valid for use in a specific local area."
Fair enough! In the US we would call "a stamp not sanctioned by the national issuing authority" a Cinderella. The concept of "a stamp that is only valid for use in a specific local area" is a bit foreign to us, but we do know that "First Class" non-denominated stamps are not valid for international postage. It seems that we would agree that the China currency control issues were local issues.
I'm using the designations of the Smithsonian pages created from the Bill Gross exhibit. They use the term "Local Stamps". If there is a term that is more accurate, I am more than willing to entertain making a change to my pages. What would YOU call a stamp issued with a specific area name that is valid everywhere in the issuing authority, and abroad?
Lars
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
What would I call it? A stamp.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"What would I call it? A stamp."
Exactly! Not needed at all if you already had a country stamp. Just like I don't need to add a Kansas and Nebraska stamp to fully represent the US, the Barbuda and Grenadines stamps are not needed either. The Smithsonian album chose to feature a FEW of these stamps in a section of selected items at the end. They used the term Local Stamps. So far it sounds like my choices for a title to these selected items, such as a Grenadines stamp, are:
Local Stamps
Stamps
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
And finally - SOUTH AMERICA. I changed the color from yellow to purple to make the pages more legible, but these are the Smithsonian pages with only 1 change - adding Constituent Country to Suriname.
Like Central America, we could come up with with a LOT of different governments and/or country names. The number of CIA and/or United Fruit Company sponsored coup d'etats would cause the number of stamp issuing entities to swell beyond reason. For countries with only one stamp, I had initially thought about 1 stamp for the "Banana Republic" and a second one when a stable republic emerged that was resistant to subtle influences by Cuba and the CIA in order to recognize their stablility. It worked (sort of) for some countries, but not so well for others. I wish there were a satisfactory treatment beyond "Republic since the beginning of stamps," but less than tripling or quadrupling the Central and South American countries.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Hi Lars,
I have a few comments here mostly on Colombia:
Colombia:
You may with to consider the earlier names and political structures of the country before it was centralised as the Republic of Colombia in 1886:
- Grenadine Confederation with stamps from 1859
- United States of New Granada with stamps from 1861
- United States of Colombia with stamps from 1862
I'd be tempted to include the individual states as well.
If I were creating my own album I would also include the following although they are all of a local and/or non-governmental nature:
- La Guaira, the mailboat service based in Venezuela
- the general issues of the SCADTA airline, based in Colombia
and my favourite:
- Tierra del Fuego.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Nigel,
I am finishing up my final thoughts on Europe and I will get to this next, but I was surprised you didn't suggest moving Falkland Islands to Antarctica.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Hi Lars,
"I am finishing up my final thoughts on Europe and I will get to this next, but I was surprised you didn't suggest moving Falkland Islands to Antarctica. "
It's funny you should say this as I almost made this suggestion!
I wouldn't expect many collectors to include Tierra del Fuego (and fas as I know it's not in the Scott catalogue) but here are two of my stamps (SG 1):
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"It's funny you should say this as I almost made this suggestion! (moving Falklands to Antarctica)"
I am really considering it. I've been trying to lay out Antarctica because you are right that it make no sense as Smithsonian presented it, and moving Falklands there may help out a lot. My personal problem with it is that Falklands will forever be linked to Argentina in my mind. The jury is still out on that one.
"the general issues of the SCADTA airline, based in Colombia"
What a blast from the past! I still remember that one! When I got Keijo's list of thousands of stamp issuing entities over 5 years ago I went through it one by one looking for things Smithsonian overlooked that I wanted to include. I came up with well over 100 additional items and that list is still growing. I remember seeing SCADTA airline and thinking two things:
1. That CLEARLY doesn't belong in a list of COUNTRY issues
2. I simply HAVE to find out what THIS is all about.
Those stamps are actually listed in the Scott Specialized catalog of US, right after the Air Post Semi-Official stamps! I am considering including one of those in my US collection as a "selected item". Kind of a BOB of BOB, if you will. I'm glad you reminded me!
I will research Columbia and respond to that later. I want to give more thought to moving Falklands to Antarctica so I will probably finalize Africa next.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"My personal problem with it is that Falklands will forever be linked to Argentina in my mind. The jury is still out on that one."
Without getting political, the Falklands are not, and never have been, Argentinian territory! They have been under British administration since before Argentina was a country.....
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"Without getting political, the Falklands are not, and never have been, Argentinian territory!"
My comment wasn't based on politics but history. I remember when Argentina invaded and the UK responded by sending a task force to liberate the islands. I remember Vulcan bombers and Exocet missles. It was very big news here, too! The Smithsonian album has the Falkland Islands in South America, but it may make more sense to place it in Antarctica. I was just saying that the Falkland Islands War historically tied the Falklands, the UK, and Argentina together in my mind. In Asia I moved Iran to be in the same section as Iraq because those are also inextricably linked in my experience with history. I am certainly not endorsing any claim Argentina made toward what they called the Malvinas.
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
The Falklands appears in the category "Atlantic islands" in many searches. Does the Smithsonian system require placement by continent or geographic region?
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
"Does the Smithsonian system require placement by continent or geographic region?"
Just to be clear, we are talking about the way continents are laid out in the "Stamp for Every Country" album that Smithsonian offers, via PDF, based on the Bill Gross exhibit of the same name in the Smithsonian Museum.
I would argue there are three considerations:
1. Continent
2. Geographic Region
3. Geo-political area
The Falklands would likely be:
1. Continent - South America
2. Geographic Region - South America (probably)
3. Geo-political area - Maybe Antarctica!
Cyprus is fun:
1. Continent - Asia
2. Geographic Region - borderline
3. Geo-political area - Europe (except for TRNC)
I have recently changed my mind and agreed that Greenland should be moved from North America to Europe, even though Smithsonian has it in N.A.
So far, Smithsonian has sided with continent every time, but if we examine the boundary between Asia and Oceania, I don't think that holds.
I am not trying to defend the way the Smithsonian pages are presented. I am only asking for compelling evidence to reject what they have.
And all inquiries and challenges are welcome!
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re: A stamp for every country (Americas)
Dave,
Back to the topic of Local Stamps: If you wanted to put together a collection of pages that included what I think we agree are local stamps (e.g. China Currency Control), PLUS stamps that may APPEAR to be local, but aren't (hopefully I don't need to give examples), what would you prefer:
1. LOCAL STAMPS
2. LOCAL AND QUASI-LOCAL STAMPS
3. LOCAL AND FAUX-LOCAL STAMPS
4. Other - describe
I want something descriptive and inclusive because I have several other examples I want to add, but the term Local Stamps obviously creates confusion.
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