Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Thanks!
Lars
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Hi Lars,
These are Vietcong issues, i.e. the National Front for the Liberation of SOuth Vietnam.
They are listed in SG. I don't know about Scott.
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First row:
SG NLF24 from 1970
SG NLF22 and NLF19 from 1968
Second row:
SG NLF12 from 1967
SG NLF31 from 1971
SG NLF58 from 1975
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"These are Vietcong issues"
To what purpose?
Propaganda?
Carry the mail for occupied areas of South Vietnam?
Carry the mail for Viet Cong soldiers?
Lars
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I would guess all three purposes. They were also used on international mail.
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"I would guess all three purposes. "
So, essentially, they were occupation stamps, right?
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SG lists 79 of these stamps plus a few varieties in the period 1963 to 1976.
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"So, essentially, they were occupation stamps, right?"
That's an interesting question.
Perhaps similar to other civil war issues?
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For interest, here are the "used" prices from SG's 2008 Stamps of the World:
SG NLF12 - £3.75
SG NLF19 - £3.75
SG NLF22 - £3.75
SG NLF24 - £3.75
SG NLF31 - 40p
SG NLF58 - £7.50
I've no idea how realistic these prices may be, especially for CTO material.
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Interesting that SG NLF22 would be entirely in English.
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"Interesting that SG NLF22 would be entirely in English."
Yes, that's a good point.
It was issued in a se-tenant pair with SG NLF21 which has the same design and face value but with the inscription all in French,
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"It was issued in a se-tenant pair with SG NLF21 which has the same design and face value but with the inscription all in French,"
Even more interesting!
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As part of my 1970 collection, I have three different Vietnam stamps to collect. Vietcong, Vietnam, and south Vietnam. I think it is quite interesting.
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'
The NLF issues may have been regarded as collectible postal issues by collectors in the FSU et al and, therefor, been a source of revenue.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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I did check Michel also (Südostasien 2012), and they do list these, in a little section at the end of Vietnam and right before South Vietnam, called, in translation from the German, Vietcong issues, and more specifically, again in translation, National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (which is what all everyone else upthread said).
Top row:
Mi 24, €5.00 mint or used, issued 4/22/70
Mi 22, €5.00 mint or used, issued 12/20/68
Mi 19, €5.00 mint or used, issued 12/20/68
Bottom row:
Mi 12, €5.00 mint or used, issued 12/20/67
Mi 31, €0.50 mint or used, issued 12/20/70
Mi 58, €10.00 mint or used, issued 1/28/76
so those values pretty much track the SG cv's that Nigel posted.
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As a long-time collector of Vietnam, I consider the NLF (Viet Cong) issues as a bonafide 'country'. The National Liberation Front was a semi-dependent entity of the North Vietnamese government, partially supported financially, and operating somewhat independently in South Vietnam in the effort to sway (coerce?) the allegiance of citizens governed under the South Vietnamese government. I say "partially supported financially", because Viet Cong forces were almost completely dependent upon the local citizenry for their sustenance.
GPU (Genuine Postally Used) are exceedingly rare, seeming to indicate that these stamps were produced primarily as an instrument of propaganda and to provide an aura of legitimacy to the NLF. The concept of a Viet Cong post office (in South Vietnam) kind of defies credibility.
Stampworld has a catalog of NLF issues, here:
Stampworld Viet Cong
There were just 51 Viet Cong issues, from 1963 to 1975. They can all be distinguished from North Vietnam and South Vietnam by the text, "Mien Nam Viet Nam"
I hope Bobstamp weighs in here...
-Paul
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"The concept of a Viet Cong post office (in South Vietnam) kind of defies credibility."
That's what concerns me. It seems to be a candidate for BOB instead of a bona fide postal entity responsible for moving the mail.
"GPU (Genuine Postally Used) are exceedingly rare"
But if they do exist GPU, that argues to inclusion in the main body, not BOB.
Interesting.
"There were just 51 Viet Cong issues, from 1963 to 1975."
Stampworld doesn't show SG 58 / Mi 58 and I'm guessing a few others.
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As far as I can see, the Stampworld listing corresponds closely to the first 51 stamps in SG's listing but SG also lists a further 28 stamps.
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I am not aware of any bona fide postal use of NLF stamps prior to the end of the Vietnam War (known as the American War in Vietnam). However, at least some were approved for use following the war, which would make them legitimate postal issues. Unfortunately, I don’t have any examples.
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Thanks Bob, Lars, & Nigel,
I have always casually kept my eye out for GPU North Vietnam and NLF. I have a few North Vietnamese covers from 1975 and earlier, domestic and international (Hungary). Not so hard to find for South Vietnam. But, since my last posting, I combed eBay for GPU NLF. Nothing.
I guess, until proven otherwise, I'll revise my view to consider the NLF issues to be not much more than labels, although the denominations on them seem to indicate that they were to be used as postage, at least conceptually.
My search for GPU NLF will not be so 'casual' anymore...
CHALLENGE: If you got 'em, show 'em!
-Paul
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I would also like to more about the use of the NLF stamps in practice.
The Vietcong/NLF controlled significant areas in South Vietnam and I would assume they operated some form of postal service at least in certain areas and periods.
The SG catalogue gives quite a bit of information on the overall political situation but very little about the postal service other than a few hints.
It notes that the NLF dong currency was not at par with the North Vietnamese dong and the relative values fluctuated.
Perhaps more interestingly, it notes that in 1976 a number of existing Vietcong stamps were authorised to be surcharged by local postmasters in South Vietnamese currency in areas under NLF control that still used this currency.
SG lists ten of these surcharges, SG NLF61-NLF70, but leaves them unpriced.
It notes that other stamps were also surcharged and gives a general recommendation to collect all these surcharged stamps used, preferably on cover.
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OK, I'm showing a cover posted in Vietnam in 19766 (following the war) and franked with a Viet Cong/National Liberation Front stamp:
I found (and purchased) this cover just yesterday, as a result of this thread. It sure looks legitimatly postally used to me, which supports my understanding that some NFL stamps were authorized for postal use after the war. I found this cover on Delcampe; eBay had nothing at all.
Bob
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Awesome, Bob!
Is the CDS October 31, 1976?
The stamp on your cover was the last issued for the NLF before Liberation. Curious that Viet Cong stamps continued to be issued for more than a year after Liberation.
I note that the inscription "b?u cha?nh" (postal or mail) does not appear on any NLF stamps prior to 1970, only one stamp in 1970 (the 100th anniversary Lenin stamp, issued April 22), and all stamps from 1971 onwards.
Also, "c?ng hòa" (republic) does not appear on NLF stamps before that same Lenin issue, in 1970. Before that, we see "m?t tr?n dân t?c gi?i phóng" or "M.T.D.T.G.P" for National Liberation Front. After that Lenin issue, all NLF stamps have the "republic" inscription instead.
Interestingly, "b?u chính" (postage) and "c?ng hòa" appear on all newly designed South Vietnamese stamps from the 1956 Diem issue...
This suggests to me a curious melding of NLF and RVN politics from mid-1970. Or, perhaps more likely, a propagandistic drive to associate the Viet Cong with the political base in South Vietnam.
-Paul
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Nigelc said, “The Vietcong/NLF controlled significant areas in South Vietnam and I would assume they operated some form of postal service at least in certain areas and periods.”
That may be true, but my Marine Corps battalion operated mostly in areas of Quang Ngai and Quang Nam Provinces which had largely been under communist control since the 1sr Indochina War (1946 - 1954). Those provinces were mostly rural, poverty stricken, and exceptionally dangerous for everyone. They were considered free-fire zones by the Marines: the rule was that if someone was moving at night (and sometimes in broad daylight), he or she was obviously a communist and therefore should be killed. I doubt there was anything approaching a functioning NLF postal system; most of the villages we passed through, and there weren’t many, had long since been destroyed or abandoned. The largest “village” near our base camp at Chu Lai was a seemingly endless string of refugee huts on the beach, populated mainly by children, women, and the elderly. This slide, from my collection of Vietnam War photos, shows some of refugee huts on the beach. This is a photo I took of the refugee “village” on the beach:
@Pigdoc: Than you for that detailed information about the stamp on this cover. The postmark date seems to be October 31, 1976. Here’s the best image of the postmarks I have (the cover was posted in France just this morning):
I have no doubt that the stamp issue was propagandistic. The North Vietnamese government mostly gave lip service to the NLF cause, which was to destroy the government of South Vietnam and unite with under a coalition. government with North Vietnam under a coalition government. The NLF had a formal but secretive “shadow government” in place when the war ended, but North Vietnam, coveting the relatively greater riches of South Vietnam, had no use for the NLF and soon set about dismembering it.
An interesting book about this period is A Viet Cong Memoir — An inside account of the Vietnam War and its aftermath, by Truong Nhu Tang, who served as the NLF’s minister of justice. Two of his brothers were sent to “re-education camps” and in 1978, fearing that things would only get worse, tang and his wife became refugee “boat people,” eventually settling in France.
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I assume these are all Cinderellas of some type:
Thanks!
Lars
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re: Viet Nam
Hi Lars,
These are Vietcong issues, i.e. the National Front for the Liberation of SOuth Vietnam.
They are listed in SG. I don't know about Scott.
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re: Viet Nam
First row:
SG NLF24 from 1970
SG NLF22 and NLF19 from 1968
Second row:
SG NLF12 from 1967
SG NLF31 from 1971
SG NLF58 from 1975
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re: Viet Nam
"These are Vietcong issues"
To what purpose?
Propaganda?
Carry the mail for occupied areas of South Vietnam?
Carry the mail for Viet Cong soldiers?
Lars
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re: Viet Nam
I would guess all three purposes. They were also used on international mail.
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this post
re: Viet Nam
"I would guess all three purposes. "
So, essentially, they were occupation stamps, right?
Login to Like
this post
re: Viet Nam
SG lists 79 of these stamps plus a few varieties in the period 1963 to 1976.
Login to Like
this post
re: Viet Nam
"So, essentially, they were occupation stamps, right?"
That's an interesting question.
Perhaps similar to other civil war issues?
Login to Like
this post
re: Viet Nam
For interest, here are the "used" prices from SG's 2008 Stamps of the World:
SG NLF12 - £3.75
SG NLF19 - £3.75
SG NLF22 - £3.75
SG NLF24 - £3.75
SG NLF31 - 40p
SG NLF58 - £7.50
I've no idea how realistic these prices may be, especially for CTO material.
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re: Viet Nam
Interesting that SG NLF22 would be entirely in English.
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re: Viet Nam
"Interesting that SG NLF22 would be entirely in English."
Yes, that's a good point.
It was issued in a se-tenant pair with SG NLF21 which has the same design and face value but with the inscription all in French,
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re: Viet Nam
"It was issued in a se-tenant pair with SG NLF21 which has the same design and face value but with the inscription all in French,"
Even more interesting!
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re: Viet Nam
As part of my 1970 collection, I have three different Vietnam stamps to collect. Vietcong, Vietnam, and south Vietnam. I think it is quite interesting.
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re: Viet Nam
'
The NLF issues may have been regarded as collectible postal issues by collectors in the FSU et al and, therefor, been a source of revenue.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: Viet Nam
I did check Michel also (Südostasien 2012), and they do list these, in a little section at the end of Vietnam and right before South Vietnam, called, in translation from the German, Vietcong issues, and more specifically, again in translation, National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (which is what all everyone else upthread said).
Top row:
Mi 24, €5.00 mint or used, issued 4/22/70
Mi 22, €5.00 mint or used, issued 12/20/68
Mi 19, €5.00 mint or used, issued 12/20/68
Bottom row:
Mi 12, €5.00 mint or used, issued 12/20/67
Mi 31, €0.50 mint or used, issued 12/20/70
Mi 58, €10.00 mint or used, issued 1/28/76
so those values pretty much track the SG cv's that Nigel posted.
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10:00:51am
re: Viet Nam
As a long-time collector of Vietnam, I consider the NLF (Viet Cong) issues as a bonafide 'country'. The National Liberation Front was a semi-dependent entity of the North Vietnamese government, partially supported financially, and operating somewhat independently in South Vietnam in the effort to sway (coerce?) the allegiance of citizens governed under the South Vietnamese government. I say "partially supported financially", because Viet Cong forces were almost completely dependent upon the local citizenry for their sustenance.
GPU (Genuine Postally Used) are exceedingly rare, seeming to indicate that these stamps were produced primarily as an instrument of propaganda and to provide an aura of legitimacy to the NLF. The concept of a Viet Cong post office (in South Vietnam) kind of defies credibility.
Stampworld has a catalog of NLF issues, here:
Stampworld Viet Cong
There were just 51 Viet Cong issues, from 1963 to 1975. They can all be distinguished from North Vietnam and South Vietnam by the text, "Mien Nam Viet Nam"
I hope Bobstamp weighs in here...
-Paul
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re: Viet Nam
"The concept of a Viet Cong post office (in South Vietnam) kind of defies credibility."
That's what concerns me. It seems to be a candidate for BOB instead of a bona fide postal entity responsible for moving the mail.
"GPU (Genuine Postally Used) are exceedingly rare"
But if they do exist GPU, that argues to inclusion in the main body, not BOB.
Interesting.
"There were just 51 Viet Cong issues, from 1963 to 1975."
Stampworld doesn't show SG 58 / Mi 58 and I'm guessing a few others.
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re: Viet Nam
As far as I can see, the Stampworld listing corresponds closely to the first 51 stamps in SG's listing but SG also lists a further 28 stamps.
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this post
re: Viet Nam
I am not aware of any bona fide postal use of NLF stamps prior to the end of the Vietnam War (known as the American War in Vietnam). However, at least some were approved for use following the war, which would make them legitimate postal issues. Unfortunately, I don’t have any examples.
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12:06:29pm
re: Viet Nam
Thanks Bob, Lars, & Nigel,
I have always casually kept my eye out for GPU North Vietnam and NLF. I have a few North Vietnamese covers from 1975 and earlier, domestic and international (Hungary). Not so hard to find for South Vietnam. But, since my last posting, I combed eBay for GPU NLF. Nothing.
I guess, until proven otherwise, I'll revise my view to consider the NLF issues to be not much more than labels, although the denominations on them seem to indicate that they were to be used as postage, at least conceptually.
My search for GPU NLF will not be so 'casual' anymore...
CHALLENGE: If you got 'em, show 'em!
-Paul
Login to Like
this post
re: Viet Nam
I would also like to more about the use of the NLF stamps in practice.
The Vietcong/NLF controlled significant areas in South Vietnam and I would assume they operated some form of postal service at least in certain areas and periods.
The SG catalogue gives quite a bit of information on the overall political situation but very little about the postal service other than a few hints.
It notes that the NLF dong currency was not at par with the North Vietnamese dong and the relative values fluctuated.
Perhaps more interestingly, it notes that in 1976 a number of existing Vietcong stamps were authorised to be surcharged by local postmasters in South Vietnamese currency in areas under NLF control that still used this currency.
SG lists ten of these surcharges, SG NLF61-NLF70, but leaves them unpriced.
It notes that other stamps were also surcharged and gives a general recommendation to collect all these surcharged stamps used, preferably on cover.
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re: Viet Nam
OK, I'm showing a cover posted in Vietnam in 19766 (following the war) and franked with a Viet Cong/National Liberation Front stamp:
I found (and purchased) this cover just yesterday, as a result of this thread. It sure looks legitimatly postally used to me, which supports my understanding that some NFL stamps were authorized for postal use after the war. I found this cover on Delcampe; eBay had nothing at all.
Bob
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09:54:16am
re: Viet Nam
Awesome, Bob!
Is the CDS October 31, 1976?
The stamp on your cover was the last issued for the NLF before Liberation. Curious that Viet Cong stamps continued to be issued for more than a year after Liberation.
I note that the inscription "b?u cha?nh" (postal or mail) does not appear on any NLF stamps prior to 1970, only one stamp in 1970 (the 100th anniversary Lenin stamp, issued April 22), and all stamps from 1971 onwards.
Also, "c?ng hòa" (republic) does not appear on NLF stamps before that same Lenin issue, in 1970. Before that, we see "m?t tr?n dân t?c gi?i phóng" or "M.T.D.T.G.P" for National Liberation Front. After that Lenin issue, all NLF stamps have the "republic" inscription instead.
Interestingly, "b?u chính" (postage) and "c?ng hòa" appear on all newly designed South Vietnamese stamps from the 1956 Diem issue...
This suggests to me a curious melding of NLF and RVN politics from mid-1970. Or, perhaps more likely, a propagandistic drive to associate the Viet Cong with the political base in South Vietnam.
-Paul
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re: Viet Nam
Nigelc said, “The Vietcong/NLF controlled significant areas in South Vietnam and I would assume they operated some form of postal service at least in certain areas and periods.”
That may be true, but my Marine Corps battalion operated mostly in areas of Quang Ngai and Quang Nam Provinces which had largely been under communist control since the 1sr Indochina War (1946 - 1954). Those provinces were mostly rural, poverty stricken, and exceptionally dangerous for everyone. They were considered free-fire zones by the Marines: the rule was that if someone was moving at night (and sometimes in broad daylight), he or she was obviously a communist and therefore should be killed. I doubt there was anything approaching a functioning NLF postal system; most of the villages we passed through, and there weren’t many, had long since been destroyed or abandoned. The largest “village” near our base camp at Chu Lai was a seemingly endless string of refugee huts on the beach, populated mainly by children, women, and the elderly. This slide, from my collection of Vietnam War photos, shows some of refugee huts on the beach. This is a photo I took of the refugee “village” on the beach:
@Pigdoc: Than you for that detailed information about the stamp on this cover. The postmark date seems to be October 31, 1976. Here’s the best image of the postmarks I have (the cover was posted in France just this morning):
I have no doubt that the stamp issue was propagandistic. The North Vietnamese government mostly gave lip service to the NLF cause, which was to destroy the government of South Vietnam and unite with under a coalition. government with North Vietnam under a coalition government. The NLF had a formal but secretive “shadow government” in place when the war ended, but North Vietnam, coveting the relatively greater riches of South Vietnam, had no use for the NLF and soon set about dismembering it.
An interesting book about this period is A Viet Cong Memoir — An inside account of the Vietnam War and its aftermath, by Truong Nhu Tang, who served as the NLF’s minister of justice. Two of his brothers were sent to “re-education camps” and in 1978, fearing that things would only get worse, tang and his wife became refugee “boat people,” eventually settling in France.
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