Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I have been having a debate about the above subject, and have mentioned it on this forum previously.
I saw a posting on a website mentioning that a person had numerous 1st day covers for sale. .
None were addressed to anyone, and my comment was that they are not postally used, but are CTO.
To be used, the item would have had to been sent through the post to someone, and the recipient would received it.
This I believe is a valid description of postally used.
If the stamps have been Cancelled to Order, and just used as a first day cover, not postally used, they are in my opinion just CTO
The Moderator of the site, removed my comment, saying is was disrespectful, to the forum and the collector.
It surprises me the number of sites, that do not like to discuss a topic, especially when they are letting registered businesses use the site to advertise their products.
What is anyone's opinion
Regards
Horamakhet
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'
The moderator is correct.
First Day Covers are a class unto themselves. They grew out of the search for EKUs (Earliest Known Use), and gradually evolved from a serendipitous postal event to a scheduled postal event to oft-times bizarre Serial Marketing products (Golden Coins) to today's utterly delightful truly-limited-edition hand-painted art (hat-tip to Fred, Cynthia, and their IMO lesser cousins).
To slice off a piece of that long development train just so's you can shove it under the CTO bus is beyond disrespectful.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who most emphatically does not collect FDCs but has, nonetheless, come to own & enjoy a few)
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Hi Horamakhet
The majority of FDCs issued today are CTO as the post offices all over Australia sell them to the public, and there are postally used FDCs; there are also home-made FDCs cancelled commercially or taken to the post office for cancellation.
And there are also unaddressed FDCs; they come in all shapes and sizes, though the commercially used FDCs are the best way to collecting them.
The moderator seems to be over-reacting a little, as I cannot see any disrespect that would have him to remove your comment; a simple response would have been sufficient.
But for the unaddressed FDCs people are entitled to their opinion about whether they are an FDC or not.
Custom-made and commercially used (I do not collect CTOs).
Rob
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Hi Horamakhet .
Quote-None were addressed to anyone, and my comment was that they are not postally used, but are CTO. Unquote.
In my opinion they are not CTO. Cancelled To Order would not be put on a Cover would they ?. All my CTO have Full Gum.
Sam
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It is true that the to find fine used modern stamps the best source is from first day covers. This seems to me especially true of GB used Machin definitives. Then again I think CTO gets a bad rap anyway.
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I was just thinking, If a stamp is soaked off a FDC and posted for sale as Used/Fine Used, This can be done.
A FDC is a valid item from APO(these days) for postage for 2 weeks from issue date. So who is to say the FDC was posted or not.
Now think on this, CTO it is NOT, why do I say this ?.
I have not, maybe someone else has, seen a CTO item WITH a picturesque postmark.
Therefore in my opinion, a picturesque postmark, NO gum is NOT CTO.
CTO will have Melbourne usually(not always) standard circular Post Mark and have Full Gum
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The debate really is about the negative connotation since it is often used in a derogatory manner based upon the literal meaning. FDC owners may not like it described like that.
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Hi to all,
All the comments are interesting, but I still think unless it is addressed,and actually sent through the post, it can not be called used, So in my opinion, they are used souvenir envelopes with little or no commercial value, and I prefer any First day covers to be addressed to a person, and auctually posted to that person, and it will remain a grey area.
However I will shortly post a new thread, named CTO AND POSTALLY USED, PART TWO,
This will even add more confusion to the CTO argument.
Regards
Horamakhet
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Yet addressed FDC's are worth less than half of an unaddressed FDC. You may be fighting a losing battle here!
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Thought provoking topic!
bicolor's comment above brought to mind the Nazi semi-postals. The majority of these, I believe, were cancelled to order. Yet, many were postally used, also. And, many of these cancellations were "picturesque", or ornamental. All stems from the motivation to 'push' these stamps as a way of raising revenue.
I love the concept of tying a stamp usage to a time and place through its cancellation. That's a central aspect of "postal history" and gives some valued context to the stamp and its usage.
I think, in general, though, when we talk about CTO, we're talking about efforts to render mint stamps valueless in terms of their intended use. Beyond that, there are many cancellations that are "to order", but serve purposes well beyond rendering stamps valueless. But, if we stick to that narrow definition of CTO (rendering mint stamps valueless), there could be little overlap with it and GPU (genuine postally used).
How does this narrow definition of CTO fit with FDC? Again, very little overlap. As it should be, in my opinion.
Personally, FDCs don't hold much interest for me, because their historical context is rather limited. For me, GPU exists in degrees. Items of the highest degree have transit markings or receiver cancellations to 'bookend' them, and thus document their journeys through the mails.
-Paul
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Here in the UK, the majority of FDC's, whether addressed or unaddressed are sent to the purchaser in a plastic envelope. Thus protecting the cover from damage and the over enthusiastic use of sharpies and having the FDC covered with the lines and dots of the automatic machine reader thus spoiling the FDC.
Therefore even unaddressed FDC's have "been through the post".
Most catalogues give prices of Mint and Used stamps. So what column do you use as a guide to price a CTO stamp?
For example Stamp a Mint $5.00 Used $2.50
Stamp b Mint $3.00 Used $6.00
Which do you use as a guide, Mint or Used????
Mint Never Hinged, Mint Hinged, Postally Used, Used from FDC, CTO with Gum, CTO without Gum, CTO Hinged etc., etc.,
It makes no difference as long as the Collector is happy with what he is collecting.
Anybody who derides another collector for not having their "high" standards or collecting interests should take a close look at themselves!!
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At one stage a mint stamp had two meanings, unused and unused/hinged, the confusion of this definition has since been corrected to hinged and mint unhinged.
A postally used and CTO cancelled FDC depends on how the cover was used, if stamped and kept, it is a CTO, if it was sent by mail it is a postally used cover.
Rob
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Hi to all
I have been having a debate about the above subject, and have mentioned it on this forum previously.
I saw a posting on a website mentioning that a person had numerous 1st day covers for sale. .
None were addressed to anyone, and my comment was that they are not postally used, but are CTO.
To be used, the item would have had to been sent through the post to someone, and the recipient would received it.
This I believe is a valid description of postally used.
If the stamps have been Cancelled to Order, and just used as a first day cover, not postally used, they are in my opinion just CTO
The Moderator of the site, removed my comment, saying is was disrespectful, to the forum and the collector.
It surprises me the number of sites, that do not like to discuss a topic, especially when they are letting registered businesses use the site to advertise their products.
What is anyone's opinion
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
'
The moderator is correct.
First Day Covers are a class unto themselves. They grew out of the search for EKUs (Earliest Known Use), and gradually evolved from a serendipitous postal event to a scheduled postal event to oft-times bizarre Serial Marketing products (Golden Coins) to today's utterly delightful truly-limited-edition hand-painted art (hat-tip to Fred, Cynthia, and their IMO lesser cousins).
To slice off a piece of that long development train just so's you can shove it under the CTO bus is beyond disrespectful.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey (who most emphatically does not collect FDCs but has, nonetheless, come to own & enjoy a few)
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
24 May 2019
06:30:44pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
Hi Horamakhet
The majority of FDCs issued today are CTO as the post offices all over Australia sell them to the public, and there are postally used FDCs; there are also home-made FDCs cancelled commercially or taken to the post office for cancellation.
And there are also unaddressed FDCs; they come in all shapes and sizes, though the commercially used FDCs are the best way to collecting them.
The moderator seems to be over-reacting a little, as I cannot see any disrespect that would have him to remove your comment; a simple response would have been sufficient.
But for the unaddressed FDCs people are entitled to their opinion about whether they are an FDC or not.
Custom-made and commercially used (I do not collect CTOs).
Rob
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10:09:10pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
Hi Horamakhet .
Quote-None were addressed to anyone, and my comment was that they are not postally used, but are CTO. Unquote.
In my opinion they are not CTO. Cancelled To Order would not be put on a Cover would they ?. All my CTO have Full Gum.
Sam
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this post
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
It is true that the to find fine used modern stamps the best source is from first day covers. This seems to me especially true of GB used Machin definitives. Then again I think CTO gets a bad rap anyway.
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11:08:35pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
I was just thinking, If a stamp is soaked off a FDC and posted for sale as Used/Fine Used, This can be done.
A FDC is a valid item from APO(these days) for postage for 2 weeks from issue date. So who is to say the FDC was posted or not.
Now think on this, CTO it is NOT, why do I say this ?.
I have not, maybe someone else has, seen a CTO item WITH a picturesque postmark.
Therefore in my opinion, a picturesque postmark, NO gum is NOT CTO.
CTO will have Melbourne usually(not always) standard circular Post Mark and have Full Gum
Login to Like
this post
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
The debate really is about the negative connotation since it is often used in a derogatory manner based upon the literal meaning. FDC owners may not like it described like that.
Login to Like
this post
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
Hi to all,
All the comments are interesting, but I still think unless it is addressed,and actually sent through the post, it can not be called used, So in my opinion, they are used souvenir envelopes with little or no commercial value, and I prefer any First day covers to be addressed to a person, and auctually posted to that person, and it will remain a grey area.
However I will shortly post a new thread, named CTO AND POSTALLY USED, PART TWO,
This will even add more confusion to the CTO argument.
Regards
Horamakhet
Login to Like
this post
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
Yet addressed FDC's are worth less than half of an unaddressed FDC. You may be fighting a losing battle here!
Login to Like
this post
08:58:44am
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
Thought provoking topic!
bicolor's comment above brought to mind the Nazi semi-postals. The majority of these, I believe, were cancelled to order. Yet, many were postally used, also. And, many of these cancellations were "picturesque", or ornamental. All stems from the motivation to 'push' these stamps as a way of raising revenue.
I love the concept of tying a stamp usage to a time and place through its cancellation. That's a central aspect of "postal history" and gives some valued context to the stamp and its usage.
I think, in general, though, when we talk about CTO, we're talking about efforts to render mint stamps valueless in terms of their intended use. Beyond that, there are many cancellations that are "to order", but serve purposes well beyond rendering stamps valueless. But, if we stick to that narrow definition of CTO (rendering mint stamps valueless), there could be little overlap with it and GPU (genuine postally used).
How does this narrow definition of CTO fit with FDC? Again, very little overlap. As it should be, in my opinion.
Personally, FDCs don't hold much interest for me, because their historical context is rather limited. For me, GPU exists in degrees. Items of the highest degree have transit markings or receiver cancellations to 'bookend' them, and thus document their journeys through the mails.
-Paul
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Auctions - Approvals
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
Here in the UK, the majority of FDC's, whether addressed or unaddressed are sent to the purchaser in a plastic envelope. Thus protecting the cover from damage and the over enthusiastic use of sharpies and having the FDC covered with the lines and dots of the automatic machine reader thus spoiling the FDC.
Therefore even unaddressed FDC's have "been through the post".
Most catalogues give prices of Mint and Used stamps. So what column do you use as a guide to price a CTO stamp?
For example Stamp a Mint $5.00 Used $2.50
Stamp b Mint $3.00 Used $6.00
Which do you use as a guide, Mint or Used????
Mint Never Hinged, Mint Hinged, Postally Used, Used from FDC, CTO with Gum, CTO without Gum, CTO Hinged etc., etc.,
It makes no difference as long as the Collector is happy with what he is collecting.
Anybody who derides another collector for not having their "high" standards or collecting interests should take a close look at themselves!!
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Member ACCC (Australian Commonwealth Collectors Club of NSW)
29 May 2019
10:23:19pm
re: CTO AND POSTALLY USED
At one stage a mint stamp had two meanings, unused and unused/hinged, the confusion of this definition has since been corrected to hinged and mint unhinged.
A postally used and CTO cancelled FDC depends on how the cover was used, if stamped and kept, it is a CTO, if it was sent by mail it is a postally used cover.
Rob
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