Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
The scale is HO and I am cutting the corners out of 3/4" particle board sheets. I am planning for two tracks with a 3" separation between centerlines on the curves and 2.5" on the straights. (The substrate for the straights is 1x6's). There is an additional 1" right-of-way from all walls.
I have been very careful to make sure that ALL curves on the outer track have a minimum radius of 30" (even when it's the "inside" track of the exterior corner) so he can run passenger trains.
The room is a typical bedroom so I only planned to have two power connections to each set of rails. That means running two pairs of wires half way around the track. I plan to route the wires between the cork roadbeds so they are out of sight, and I plan to run one or two wires to each corner where scenery may be in case there is lighting.
The outside passenger loop is stand-alone, but the interior freight loop is where I am considering adding some complexity. If I wire the outer loop for a fairly simple controller (no DCC) and don't connect it in any way electrically with the inner loop, how can I set up the wiring for the inner loop to support DCC and throwing switches remotely. I don't want to do a lot, but I could add a few sidings and maybe a yard and have 2 or 3 engines operating on the inner loop.
My father built his own display panel showing all switch locations on his S gauge layout, but I'm guessing it might be an iPad app by now. How can I best plan for this when I'm adding the wiring to the bones of this layout.
Any ideas?
Lars
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If the two main tracks are separate, and there is no connection between the two, then you will have two separate electrical circuits. The inner (freight) track can be DCC without any problem. DCC will activate switch machines that are designed for DCC operation. If the layout is not too wide, you can have manually operating switches. Using one's hands to throw a switch mimics reality. That's just a thought, and something that keeps the layout electrically simpler.
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Are you putting it at 8' to go over the door and window? Can you see it alright sitting on a chair or the bed?
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Michael:
"If the two main tracks are separate, and there is no connection between the two, then you will have two separate electrical circuits. The inner (freight) track can be DCC without any problem. DCC will activate switch machines that are designed for DCC operation."
Yes, initially the inner and outer loop will be on separate circuits. In fact, I plan to wire it for block control in Phase 1, but I like that I can get switches thrown via DCC. Super!
"If the layout is not too wide, you can have manually operating switches. Using one's hands to throw a switch mimics reality. That's just a thought, and something that keeps the layout electrically simpler."
That's not really an option for a layout near the ceiling.
Thanks for the inputs! I'm still cutting wood for the substrate, so I'm just getting started, but adding land for me is a major undertaking so I want to plan ahead.
Lars
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Ernie:
"Are you putting it at 8' to go over the door and window?"
Yes, the doors have transoms so the lowest I can put the track is 12 inches below a 9' ceiling. More importantly, building code (my wife) won't allow the track to traverse in front of the transom. (Yes, I know, that would be sweet).
"Can you see it alright sitting on a chair or the bed?"
As an observer you can see it fine on the opposite wall in any position and standing in the middle of the room you can see all the action with no problem. The layout I did for my oldest is a simple one train one track setup that is on or off (but he can control the speed up to a maximum I can set remotely).
The new layout I am working on will have switches that can be set manually at first, but I would like to be able to set them remotely in the future.
Do DCC switches trigger from the signal on the rail, or are they wired separately? Is there a way to tell remotely how the switches are set on a DCC system?
Lars
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That sounds cool! A brewery / restaurant we frequent in New Jersey was built in an old freight office next to the tracks. So of course there is a railroad theme. They have a G scale track that runs along the tops of the walls through the dining room and bar, two separate rooms. It goes into a tunnel through the walls. Every few minutes the train comes on through!
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Anglophile -
Great info! I'm not going to have a yard, so I think I can just mount a pair of LEDs at each switch pointing toward the center of the room to indicate switch position (green mainline, red other).
I did a single track elevated layout 10 years ago for my oldest son (so no need for switches or DCC), but I did EVERYTHING I could possibly do at ground level. I even "tried in" the substrates to brackets and made sure the roadbeds lined up before laying track. Then I pulled down the substrates and nailed down almost all of the track except the interface points so I had minimal connections at 8' up!
Lars
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What about decoupling remotely? Is there a way to do that? I would only need 2 or fixed locations. It doesn't have to be DCC.
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I just finished the substrates. This is the top view (the 1x6's expand the layout to fit the room):
The red lines are the track centerlines.
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I have all of the substrate up and fitted, now I'm ready to pull it back down to install roadbed, track, switches, etc. I only plan to make final track connections when I put it back up.
If I buy DCC friendly switches, I can just move them manually until I get DCC, right? Is there a way to wire up simple LED lights that illuminate the red or green light depending on how the switch is set. If so I could drill a small hole and mount the indicators underneath the substrate. There are only a few switches in diverse locations, so it would be rather easy to determine the track configuration from underneath.
Any suggestions for where to shop for roadbed, track, and switches other than Walther's?
The only model railroading I've done was another elevated track for my oldest son eleven years ago and that was just single track with no switches or siding because he was only 4. The new one is for a 13-year-old that wants sidings and a turntable. (He will just have to use a step stool to see the turntable unless I mount a mirror or a camera).
One other thing that would be nice would be a remote uncoupler. Is there such a thing? I would like to add at least 3 of them and I don't care if they all fire at the same time.
Thanks for all the help!
Lars
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"Any suggestions for where to shop for roadbed, track, and switches other than Walther's?"
hobby shops, ebay, model railroad shows, Hobby Lobby (limited supply)
There are remote uncouplers. Kadee makes one, but you'll have to be able to see the train in order to position the car over the device. With DCC, you can buy couplers that uncouple with a push of a button.
I am purposely not answering most of your DCC questions, because my layout is DC. My experiences with DCC are solely as an operator on other peoples' DCC layouts. Chris, however, has a good understanding of DCC. Kalbach also has published manuals regarding how to use DCC, and how to accessorize using DCC.
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i would just like to say I think you are awesome for putting so much time into a project with your kids 
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"There are remote uncouplers. Kadee makes one, but you'll have to be able to see the train in order to position the car over the device. With DCC, you can buy couplers that uncouple with a push of a button."
DCC sounds ideal because I would only want to uncouple the passenger engine, passenger "caboose", and two or three freight engines. My son can uncouple manually before DCC, and that's good because he has to pay for the DCC upgrade and that will motivate him. I'm providing the basic DC block wired setup and DCC compatible engines. He needs to do chores to get enough for the DCC upgrade. He may do it, because he saved up his chore money for 18 months and bought a computer.
Is there a device that shows how a switch if thrown? Like green for mainline and red for other? I could mount it under the substrate for easy viewing.
"i would just like to say I think you are awesome for putting so much time into a project with your kids "
Thank you, nlroberts! I enjoy this because I remember my father's model railroad growing up. I just wish he were still here to give me advice!
But the good folks on this thread have been very helpful, and I appreciate that.
Lars
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As part of this process I bought a bridge from Central Valley Model Works.
What a disaster! The whole mess goes in the trash and I bought an Atlas bridge as a replacement.
I'm used to detailed model building because my father ALWAYS had a SPECIAL project for me when I visited. It usually took two or three hours the first night, an hour or so in the morning, afternoon, and evening the next day, and a little bit of finish before I left to go back home (10 hours away), but he provided the materials, food, and most importantly, free beer as long as I was building models. It was also good bonding time since he was usually making fine adjustment to the rolling stock while I was building. I remember one project where I ended up stringing high voltage transmission lines (aka silver thread) all over his layout. I also built most of his bridges and trestles because I was good at it.
So I'm not a rookie at this - at least not the model building part. But holy cow, CVMW is a nightmare!
Lars
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There are times when you say why did I ever start down this road... I've been saying it since i was like ten ... 
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"There are times when you say why did I ever start down this road... I've been saying it since i was like ten."
I understand, but I was hoping for a project that I could work on with my 13-year-old son, not one his father with an Engineering degree can't manage! I know some of the projects can be a challenge, and I did several for may father, but this was insane!
I'm hopeful that the Atlas bridge will be one my son and I can work on together for his layout. Challenge is good. Attention to detail is great! The bridge from CVMW was horrible!
Lars
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I think you are a fine man to care about such matters. We all make make errors of judgement from time to time. After all there are many branches of engineering 
I wouldn't figure to build a railway trestle if i spent my days studying phasors ....
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Just don't start one one like this, unless you plan on living a long time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-50403561
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Sheepshanks - that's a very impressive layout Rod Stewart has! Thanks for sharing!
Anglophile -
"but to say that it's "horrible" seems a little harsh, to the extent that it implies that it's objectively a poor product."
Fair enough. All I needed was a warning like this: "This product is intended for use in high visibility areas by highly advanced modelers and therefore requires an exceptional level of expertise to even make it structurally sound." I didn't care if mine wasn't as pretty as most, but if I would have known how sensitive the structural integrity was, I would have never bought it. It was a horrible experience for me personally. Others may have different experiences.
And I get that some modellers really get into the details. When I was a kid in the 60's, my father built a trestle about 3 feet tall over a span of about 5 feet for an S gauge railroad from scratch over the period of almost a year. I get it.
But no worries, I think a fix is on its way!
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What's even more impressive about Rod Stewart's layout is that he built most of it himself. He has a friend who helps him. His layout has been featured a couple of times in "Model Railroader" magazine. In the article, Stewart stated that when he is on tour, he brings models to work on in his hotel room between shows.
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Yeah, I think he said he had friend help him mostly with wiring, but he does a lot of his own scenery. Very cool.
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In settling in to my newly reborn interest in modelling plastic airplanes and ships, I've encountered some insanely small parts. A clear "tail light" for a 1/48 Beech Mentor trainer is so small that I couldn't see where it could be cemented, even under high magnification. I have high-quality (i.e. expensive) tweezers with pointed tips no more than a quarter-millimetre wide, but I couldn't pick that part up and hold it with those tweezers, much less manipulate it. In the end, I used a tiny drop of Testor's Clear Parts Cement & Window Maker did the trick. I'm sure there are modellers out there who handle such tiny parts with ease, but I think they are probably bionic! Anyhow, good luck with your project, Lars. You are a dedicated father!
Bob
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Thanks, Bob.
It's all good. I'm learning as I go.
Cheers!
Lars
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I have a wiring question:
I bought eight Peco Streamline Code 100 Insulfrog turnouts. The great thing about them is they only energize the rail they are switched to. That way I can use them as a quasi block control. The layout is such that it only makes sense to switch them in pairs (like a siding that goes off the mainline and back on) so it will be easy to "park" engines or entire trains in a few places. There are 4 pairs of turnouts so I need 8 motors and 4 to 8 remote switches. I would like to control the switches from the AC output and have a feedback of switch position via AC so I can mount red/green LEDs on a control panel to easily see how the points are set.
Obviously I want surface mount motors so they won't be seen. I have the 2020 Walthers catalog but there are so many options I'm not sure which way to go. Any suggestions?
Lars
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Surface switch machines are seen as they on the tabletop. I only have a couple of Peco standard switches on my layout. Since the Peco switch machines do not come in a housing, I bought a couple of small sheds to place on top of the switch machines. Worked perfectly.
AC is fine to use to activate the switch machines.
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I found this:
It's a side-mounted Peco switch machine (PL-11). A bit more expensive, but won't be visible from below. The instructions recommend a PL-26 switch:
I was hoping to throw a pair of turnouts with each switch. That way I only need 5 switches for the 10 motors (I have 10 turnouts, not 8 - I counted wrong). I could mount them in this (PL 27):
I could simplify things and just use the switch positions to indicate how the points are set, I suppose.
The instructions also recommend a capacitor discharge unit (CDU) - PL-35
That might be a good idea if I am going to throw two motors per switch. I saw a You Tube video of someone doing just that.
Do I split the AC output and run one line to any scenery lights I want and run the other through the CDU and then the switches?
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I would not use the same AC outlet for the switches and other accessories. Buy an old power pack and use the AC outlet for the lights. You can use the DC outlet for the lights as well. That will let you dim them, using the power pack as a large resister. That is how I do it. You can find them (cheapo Tyco or Bachmann power pack) for just a few dollars at train shows. You don't need a fancy one.
The capacitor discharge unit does two things:
- gives a strong shot of electricity to the switch machines, usually around 30 volts. It won't hurt the machines
- The switch machines will overheat and burn out if the power is maintained for more than a few seconds. The capacitor discharge unit discharges all the electricity with one shot. The capacitor cannot recharge as long as the button used to throw the switch machine is held down, and no harm will come to the switch machine. There are plans out there to where you can build your own. I did that many years ago.
To activate those switch machines, you will need a momentary push button slide controller. I don't think the one you showed works that way. Atlas makes such a controller. What I did when I used them was to paint fluorescent red on the side of the slide button that indicated the diverging route. It was easy to see when a switch was off the mainline. Atlas has a device that can be used to provide light indicators for the switches. Atlas has a wiring book that explains the use of all their electronic components. It is a good book for learning model railroad electronics.
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Thanks, Michael! There are two mainlines so I will have two transformers. I will use the AC on one for lights and the other for switches. I was thinking about using CAT6 cable for the lights and telephone wiring for the switch machines. I have lots of spare of each. I will definitely get that Atlas wiring book!
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Using a small gauge wire will cause a sharp drop in voltage the farther the electricity has to travel. Since you'll be pushing 30 volts through the wires to activate the switch machines, I would use nothing smaller than 18 gauge wire. 20 or 22 gauge wires is good enough for powering accessory lights.
For those unfamiliar with wire sizes, the smaller the gauge number, the thicker the wire.
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I thought the ground burial telephone wire I had was bigger. I have some 18/3 thermostat wire laying around. That should work. I used 14/2 intercom wire for the DC power to the rails.
My big challenge now is learning how to make a splice in flex track in a 34" curve. When I did the last one the curves were all 22" radius and I bought prefab curved pieces to be sure the curves were perfect. I wish there was an L shaped bracket I could mount on the outside of the outer rail to keep the curve smooth.
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You want the moveable rail on the inside of the curve. Make sure before you cut the rail that the rails are joined to the piece of track that you are working from. It is easy to overlook the loose rail not being connected.
When I work with flex track, i make sure I have an extra piece just in case I make a mistake cutting a piece. Take it easy, and you'll see that it isn't so difficult, especially after a little practice. If you have rail nippers, the job goes even easier. I like the ones made by Xuron. Micro-Mark is a good resource for model railroading tools.
Here's a link with a video to guide you:
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And this is why Rod Stewart did all the work except the electrical!
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Electrical sure does stymie many model railroaders. Scenery work does too, although it is quite simple to do.
I have a friend who many years ago built a free-lanced layout. He tried wiring the layout, but was unable to do it right. He then got someone to rewire it for him. That didn't work either. Then he asked me to take a look at it. I couldn't figure out what the two of them did! I offered to rewire the layout for him, but he decided that he would just run the trains around the main circle of track.
He has since moved from his house, and with his new bride bought another (farther away, unfortunately). He built a large shed in the backyard, and will build a new layout in it. He already asked me for help. I guess I'll soon be "playing" trains at his new house, and probably spending a few nights there too. That'll be fun.
By the way, his old layout was not tossed in the landfill. He donated it to a local Boy Scout Troop, and from my understanding, they are having fun with it. The scouts also learned , in addition to the other aspects of the hobby, how to wire a layout as their Scout Master is a model railroader!
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"Scenery work does too, although it is quite simple to do."
Agreed, some folks just don't have the eye or skills for scenery work. I love to build little details. This is G-scale to you, 1/25 scale to me. Nearly everything you see here was scratch built.
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Tom, wonderful details! However, is the toilet seat down?
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I love it, Tom! Especially the Victor mousetrap and the Hot Rod magazine. I don't want to know about the green stuff on the plate!
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"You want the moveable rail on the inside of the curve. "
My flex rail alternates missing tie connectors so there isn't a fixed rail.
"Make sure before you cut the rail that the rails are joined to the piece of track that you are working from. It is easy to overlook the loose rail not being connected."
Yup, did that.
"When I work with flex track, i make sure I have an extra piece just in case I make a mistake cutting a piece. "
I think I have two or three extra pieces, so no worries there.
"If you have rail nippers, the job goes even easier. I like the ones made by Xuron."
That's where I was struggling! I was using an Atlas Super Saw from the last layout,
but I only had a few cuts with the prefab curves, single track simple loop on the old one. With the dual track and all of the turnouts and the reverse curve on the new one, I am definitely trying a rail cutter. Just bought a pair of Xuron rail cutters on sale at Walthers. Hopefully that will speed things up!
"Here's a link with a video to guide you:"
Thanks for the helpful link!!
Lars
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Back in my "rookie" model railroading days, I first cut flex track with a saw like you. Then I went to a Dremel tool. It was difficult to get the proper cut. The I got the rail cutter to. That changed everything.
What brand flex track are you using?
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"Back in my "rookie" model railroading days, I first cut flex track with a saw like you. Then I went to a Dremel tool. It was difficult to get the proper cut."
I tried using a Milwaukee end cutter with a metal cutting blade to similar effect. Hard to keep engaged on the rail.
"What brand flex track are you using?"
Life-Like Code 100 Nickel Silver. I do everything in Nickel Silver so I don't have to clean it and I tend to stick with code 100. With the track itself invisible at 7' overhead, why not?
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I have used the same and Model Power as well. Mostly I use the Atlas brand. No real difference between them. All have been reliable on my layout since I began construction back in 1993.
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The bridge kit just arrived. That will keep me busy for a while!
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I guess we'll hear back from you after you cross that bridge!
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And cross that bridge I did, David. (I know that's really David with the sick puns)!
The Peco switch motors, switches, and CDU came in and I was finally able to create a recipe for firing two turnouts with one switch. I couldn't find the Atlas wiring book Michael suggested, but I did find one from Model Railroader. My father had that subscription for decades so I figured the info would be worthwhile and at first glance I don't think I will be disappointed!
I'm really at a standstill now, though, because the rail cutter won't be here until Monday and my wife returns tomorrow, so I have to tear everything down until after Thanksgiving because we have lots of company coming in and I have stuff strewn all over the guest spaces because I can (until she gets back, that is).
So far so good, and thanks to all you experts for helping me out!
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and I will post something in December when a milestone is reached. Everything is still at ground level for now testing sections of track, and I plan to put everything together in the great room for a final check before installing each piece in the final location.
Cheers!
Lars
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LOOKING FOR IDEAS:
I want to build a falling rock area and containment fence (probably using some aluminum screen material). Has anyone done something like that?
Lars
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Because we have had company all week I have only been able to spend limited time in my shop working on small objects, but I was able to work on the Rivarossi passenger cars. I knew they were under-weighted and Michael suggested 1 ounce plus 1/2 ounce per inch.
I was pleased to see that the cars already had metal wheels, knuckle couplers, and interiors (6 of 8 cars). I got them all weighted up using fishing sinkers attached symmetric with the center of gravity with Walthers Goo.
So far, so good, but the admittedly subjective value I gave each car for rolling ability showed a LOT of variability. On a scale of 0 to 4, where 0 means the wheels are mostly locked up and you have to slide the car along the rails, and 4 which means the car will roll freely on a flat surface with little problem, one would hope for 3s and 4s, but I have 3 ones, 2 twos, and 3 threes.
I checked under magnification and it isn't that some of the wheels are too big and impinging on the brake shoes on the truck. Is there maybe a lubricant I need to replenish on these plastic trucks?
Lars
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if you need to lubricate something gently I can only suggest Maxima 74920 Chain Wax - 13.5 oz. Aerosol. Yes its sold for motorcycles but i use it on my mountain bike and many other things....
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for your containment i'd suggest a bit of pea gravel and some chicken wire or a similar mesh
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The car weight formula I gave you is the hobby standard established by the National Model Railroad Association.
Do you know if the wheel sets are original to the cars? Sometimes replacement wheel sets do not sit properly in the trucks.
Also, if the cars are lighted, sometimes the wipers that sit on the axles cause friction that prevent the cars from rolling freely.
I would not use the oil that Nancy suggests (sorry). Heavy duty oil can soften the plastic used on the models.
You could try using a hobby oil, or graphic powder. I got away from using oil, and have long preferred graphite powder.
For the oil, Labelle 107 is probably best.
For the graphite, there are two that I have found that I like:
- Hob-E-Lube dry graphite with molybdenum
- Woodland Scenics KLR8 ultra graphite
For the issues you are having, I prefer using the Hob-E-Lube graphite. You can find a tube of it wherever the Pine Car kits are sold, like Hobby Lobby.
The Woodland Scenics product has a long, very thin needle that gets clogged all the time, so I found I don't like to use it for that reason.
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Anglophile,
I like the idea for creating rock fall, but why not use silver fine mesh screen-door material for the fencing? Too rigid?
"With the cars high off the floor, the brake shoes aren’t going to be seen. I would sand or file them down, or even trim them off. The need for regular lubrication will just lead to frustration."
Yes, but the brake shoes are not rubbing, at all, and I hate to damage the cars. I suspect the friction is the axles in the trucks.
Michael,
I don't know if the wheel sets are original or not. The early sets had no interiors and hookhorn couplers, but these have interiors and knuckle couplers. I don't know if later versions with interiors also included metal wheels and knuckle couplers. I know there are after-market products available for both. No lights, so no issue there. I have some Hob E Lube left over from when my boys did Pinewood Derby so I will give that a go. I wrote down the initial weight, modified weight, and rolling ease for each car so I will take a car rated 1 (bad) and visually inspect under magnification for any burrs, then add the Hob E Lube, and see if it improves. Thanks!
BTW, I have enough track laid that I was able to verify that the Proto 2000 engine can pull all of the cars as is. Any improvements just increase my top speed.
Thanks again, everyone!
Lars
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Micro-Mark has a small tool that reshapes the bearing where the wheel axle point goes to NMRA standard. It also cleans out any plastic burrs, dirt and grime.
It works good, but it's expensive ($19.95).
#82838 HO Truck Tuner.
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$20 isn't cheap, but a lot less than replacing 16 trucks and 15 couplers!
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"Screen door material is not to scale. Oversized."
OK. I understand. I'm just not that worried about scale. I have a passenger train that is 9 feet long - almost 800 scale feet. After one loop around the track, it hasn't even traveled one scale mile.
"A better place for your questions is the Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine forum"
I like the answers here because:
1. This is a one-off project and I don't plan any others after it. I've received several VERY good suggestions here without being inundated with advice for someone planning to build an entire new layout.
2. The advice here is from people that understand that model railroading is a secondary hobby.
Thanks!
Lars
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" The advice here is from people that understand that model railroading is a secondary hobby. "
Model Railroading offers me much more socially than stamp collecting ever has. I find a greater diversity in model railroading as each hobbyist creates something unique, and invites others to visit/operate on it. Discussions involve plenty of history and comparisons how each hobbyist's railroad varied/interacted with the other. Discussions can last for hours.
In the rare times when I socialize with stamp collecting, it is usually with one or two people, not a group/team. The conversation usually doesn't last all that long either.
I consider model railroading to be my primary hobby. I spend more time with this hobby than I do with stamps. I find it to be more multi-faceted and challenging than stamp collecting. Stamp collecting, however, does offer quiet, relaxing time for oneself.
I find model railroading to be more of a group/team activity, while stamp collecting is primarily a solitary activity.
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Michael,
I appreciate all of your help. Those rail cutters are AWESOME! I only have 4 cuts left to go and I can't tell that they are getting dull yet. I did learn to watch out for ricochets if you cut off a tiny piece of rail! 
Because my only two layouts are in my sons' bedrooms, this is about as solo as stamp and coin collecting for me. I get lots of great advice online, but I have to execute by myself. (If my father was still alive it would be a different story!).
I do share your love of history not only in stamps, but in model railroading. To me, the difference is familiarity. If I learn about a stamp from Sarawak featuring the Brooke Rajas, I have to look that up! And if you and I met some day and discussed that topic, we would tell each other what we have learned. But when making a model railroad, you can relive history. I intentionally bought an Illinois Central passenger train to add to my son's layout. I also bought a postcard showing an ICRR passenger train crossing Kentucky Dam and a timetable from 1961 when his E7 engine would have been a workhorse. If ANYONE else in this area my age saw this, not just model railroaders, they might share their memories of the City of New Orleans train from Chicago, meeting the St. Louis train in Carbondale, and headed to New Orleans.
But I'm not really creating a "model railroad". If I were, I would include a spur for the actual railroad that my grandfather's grandfather founded to support his coal mine. I would also include topographical features, including the mine entrance and nearby shanty town. Now THAT would lead to some discussions!
I look forward to visiting your layout some day. I am way past due for a trip to Texas!
Lars
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i dunno saying stamp collecting is a solitary activity is like saying scientific research is a solitary activity. An individual experiment/examination may be individual but generally it is only through sharing info/results that progress is achieved. ... its a matter of degree ... I can paint by number but my partner can make a painting in 57 shades of blue ...I might say... how many shades of small queens are there really?... but if stamp collecting amounts to putting stickers on a page then i would say yes stick to the model railroads ... HO HO HO ... I like model railroads too ... and so many other things ... how can anyone ever say they are bored... its all good
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My layout is open for visitations. I have given many one-on-one tours. All I ask is to give me a couple of day's notice so I can have time to clean up any work I might be doing, and to make the layout presentable.
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"All I ask is to give me a couple of day's notice"
Not a problem. I have to plan my vacations several months in advance due to my job. I'm making the trip in the next 18 months for sure. It's been too long! My best friend is in Dallas (and he visited me recently) and my best friend from college lives in Pfluggerville. Right in your neck of the woods!
I have a question about lighting. I bought the book from Model Railroader "Wiring your Model Railroad" because I couldn't find the book you suggested for sale anywhere. But I don't know how to determine what I need in the way of resistors in specific circumstances.
I only have 3 places for lighting and initially it's just going to be a few street lamps as a test. (I designed it so more extensive scenery modules, with lighting, can be put in place later). The instructions tell me to "Connect wires to an AC or DC power source with a maximum output of 12 volts".
I have two power packs with DC going to two different mainlines and AC from one pack going to switch motors and the other to lighting. The AC output is advertised at 19 VAC. Is there a good reference source that tells me how to resolve that?
I just need to know how to deal with these street lights now, but it would be nice to have a reference I can use to answer later questions.
Lars
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I use cheap power packs that I get for a few dollars at train shows. I may have an extra one lying around. I'll have to look and get back to you on that. I may even have a home made power supply that has reduced voltage built in. I just have to go through my train show bins and see what's still left from the last show.
Anyway, connect the lights to the DC terminals. That way you can use the throttle to regulate (a sort of resister) how bright you want the lights to be.
Note: this will not work with LEDs.
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now there's a word ... LED ... you won't find in those old model RR mags ... quite a revolution tho now i think about it...
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"I use cheap power packs"
I don't want to do that. I already have a very compact control panel designed and I don't want to add another piece. Besides, lighting will be VERY modest. I just need a way to step 19V AC down to 16V AC. I have no need to dim the lights in my application.
I have another question that I'm going to take Anglophile's suggestion on and place on the Model RR forum because it's rather obscure. I may post this as well.
BTW, rail cutters are just now getting dull - and I'm done laying track! They aren't bad, but I had to use a file to smooth off the last few cuts. I have two more turnout switches to wire up and then I can finish testing all of my turnout switches before putting the layout up in my son's room and running some trains!
Lars
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If your lights are 12V, and you use 16V for them, the lights won't last very long. Also, running lights at full voltage will also shorten their life. Cutting 12V down to 10V will keep the lights burning for quite some time. I have lights that were used on my high school layout that are still working at the lower voltage. Usually, you don't need full voltage anyway. I'm not sure where you will be using the lights.
When I am fiddling around with dropping voltage, I always use a spare light for testing that is comparable to the one that will be used on the layout, or I use a volt meter.
http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/Dropping_Resistor_Calc.html
The above link will let you calculate which dropping resister you will need to meet your needs. You will have to scroll down a little bit to get to the calculator.
I entered, for example:
- 19 volts (the starting voltage)
- 10 volts (the desired voltage)
- 0.05 AMPs for the current draw of one light (not an LED)
The results called for a dropping resister of 180 OHMs with 0.45 minimum wattage.
Resister packages will have the OHM and wattage information on the pack.
Here another link that seems to be easy to understand (from all that OHMS Law jargon). I haven't seen this site before. I have it bookmarked now. It also explains how to easily drop voltage in half, and shows the electrical layout:
"To divide voltage in half, all you must do is place any 2 resistors of equal value in series and then place a jumper wire in between the resistors. At this point where the jumper wire is placed, the voltage will be one-half the value of the voltage supplying the circuit."
http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/How-to-reduce-voltage-with-resistors.php
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"If your lights are 12V, and you use 16V for them, the lights won't last very long."
16V was a typo.
"The above link will let you calculate which dropping resister you will need to meet your needs."
THAT'S what I was looking for, thanks!!!
"Cutting 12V down to 10V will keep the lights burning for quite some time."
Really??? That's good to know! I will certainly do that!
Thanks again.
I posted my other question on the Model RR forum:
"I am building an elevated loop in my son's bedroom. I bought a PROTO 2000 E7 engine and a full set of Rivarossi passenger cars. They already have knuckle couplers and I added the appropriate amount of weight to each car. I am testing everything at ground level and when I run at high speed I experience a lot of decoupling. The curves are 28 to 30" radius, so it's not because of tight turns.
I assume that the cheap truck mounted couplers are the problem, but because this railroad will be 8' off the ground (9' ceiling), you won't be able to see the couplers anyway except when the train passes over a bridge. My first thought was to use the appropriate diameter clear plastic tubing to create a "lock" on the couplers. Has anyone tried this?"
That seems like a more specialized question.
I really appreciate all of your help, Michael!
Lars
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I only got two responses on the Model RR forum: One said to use the drawbar that connects steam locos to tenders (not a bad idea, but I didn't want to modify the cars) and the other suggestion was to add a resistor to slow the train down to a crawl. I found a draw bar at Walther's that I could attach to the couplers, but how to connect to the necks that attach to the trucks? Then it hit me. Just use twist ties (like on loaves of bread) to hold the couplers together! I will give that a try.
All track and turnout switches tested. Now I'm taking it apart, hauling it to my son's room, and reassembling up high. Then I will test again before wiring the control panel that I haven't even built yet (but it is drawn up and I have all of the materials).
Hoping for a Christmas Day demo of the two mainlines. Control panel wiring? Sounds like a good Winter project!
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The converter is nothing more in principle than a dropping resister. It will get hot as well. There is no other way to drop voltage without giving off heat. Look at the large heat sink on the device. I'm not saying not to use it. It does the job nicely, just like a power pack does.
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I like that idea! I have two power packs so I will get two of those things. Both power packs are 19V AC for accessories. I'm going to use one to power the turnout switches. Peco says 16V max AC on the switches, but I bought the capacitor discharge unit and it says 16V AC or 12V DC so I can dial it down to 12V DC and be good to go. The lights say 12V AC or DC max. I can dial that one down to 10V DC and go up as high as 12V DC if needed. I like the ability to make adjustments and I found one on Amazon with a digital readout and a tuning knob. Bought two and paid $25 shipping to get them here before Christmas. (This whole project is kind of a Christmas present). I found a couple of domestic 12V CPU fans that I can use to blow air over the heatsinks since they will be mounted behind the power packs on a shelf. Those were less than $4 each including shipping and tax and they will be here before Christmas.
Do you think there would be a problem running one of the fans at 10V? I can give it a try if you don't think I will hurt anything. I can wire them both from the 12V output, but I would prefer to wire the fan from the actual Buck converter it is cooling in case my son turns off only one power pack (or it fails).
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I don't know how much voltage a commercial capacitor discharge unit sends out, but I built one from plans, and it sent out 35 volts. I have a couple of Peco switch machines in addition to all the other switch machines I have. The duration of the electric charge to the switch machines is just a split second. I never had a problem with over powering the switch machines. You want a good shot of voltage to ensure that the switch points are closed when the switch is thrown.
The maximum voltage from the manufacturers of the switch machines is for when a capacitor discharge unit is not used, because too long of a burst of electricity will burn out the switch machines.
The fans should run at 10 volts. It's when you go above the fan motor voltage rating that you get into trouble. At a couple of volts less, the fan will run a little slower, but the fan motor will run cooler too. If you drop the voltage too much, the fan motor may not be able to start.
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"If your son holds the buttons down after the CDU has discharged, the CDU will try to pull 3 amps through from the power pack."
Not possible. I'm using Peco burst switches that fire one burst from the CDU and that's it. I suppose if he were to toggle the switch back and forth rapidly he may cause a problem, but if he did something that stupid, he shouldn't have a model railroad!
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The project is now complete! Turned over the keys today.
Here is the control panel. Passenger main line on left, freight main line on right.
There are currently 4 engines on the layout. You can see 3 from this shot:
Two of the corners have a siding off of the freight main line so small trains (e.g Switch engines with a few cars) can be parked there. The switches are thrown in pairs using Peco Insulfrog turnouts so only the selected path is energized. Note the Railroad crossing signs. Those are O gauge scale to make them plenty visible and used to indicate the limits of safe parking on the sidings. I experimented with a small convex mirror in the corner but it needs to be much bigger!
Here is my favorite part:
You can see the ICRR passenger engine in the background and the freight engine in the foreground. That's my oldest son's engine. The ICRR engine I bought was sent back so I am going to try again on the ICRR main line freight engine. I have an ICRR switch engine (not shown) and I may get another one to replace the Santa Fe engine.
Again the Railroad crossing signs indicate switch placement (a freight train can be "parked" on the bridge with the loop inside the passenger line energized instead). The glare makes the polycarbonate barrier easily seen.
The water tower honors a nearby tower in Makanda, IL:
I ended up bypassing the buck converter for the CDU. It works much better direct from the auxilliary AC output even though it's over the rated voltage.
Many thanks to everyone for all the help!
Lars
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That's a great job! I especially like how you did the control panel.
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This on BBC site today for you railway folks.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-london-51932009/the-steampunk-model-railway-enthusiast-having-designs-used-by-hornby
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I built an elevated railroad for my oldest son when he was very young, but my youngest now wants his own layout and he's old enough to build some scenery. The layout is VERY elevated (at about 8' in a room with 9' ceilings) and follows the walls. The room is L shaped so there are 5 curves with one turning the opposite direction of the other 4.
The scale is HO and I am cutting the corners out of 3/4" particle board sheets. I am planning for two tracks with a 3" separation between centerlines on the curves and 2.5" on the straights. (The substrate for the straights is 1x6's). There is an additional 1" right-of-way from all walls.
I have been very careful to make sure that ALL curves on the outer track have a minimum radius of 30" (even when it's the "inside" track of the exterior corner) so he can run passenger trains.
The room is a typical bedroom so I only planned to have two power connections to each set of rails. That means running two pairs of wires half way around the track. I plan to route the wires between the cork roadbeds so they are out of sight, and I plan to run one or two wires to each corner where scenery may be in case there is lighting.
The outside passenger loop is stand-alone, but the interior freight loop is where I am considering adding some complexity. If I wire the outer loop for a fairly simple controller (no DCC) and don't connect it in any way electrically with the inner loop, how can I set up the wiring for the inner loop to support DCC and throwing switches remotely. I don't want to do a lot, but I could add a few sidings and maybe a yard and have 2 or 3 engines operating on the inner loop.
My father built his own display panel showing all switch locations on his S gauge layout, but I'm guessing it might be an iPad app by now. How can I best plan for this when I'm adding the wiring to the bones of this layout.
Any ideas?
Lars
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re: Model Railroad project
If the two main tracks are separate, and there is no connection between the two, then you will have two separate electrical circuits. The inner (freight) track can be DCC without any problem. DCC will activate switch machines that are designed for DCC operation. If the layout is not too wide, you can have manually operating switches. Using one's hands to throw a switch mimics reality. That's just a thought, and something that keeps the layout electrically simpler.
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Are you putting it at 8' to go over the door and window? Can you see it alright sitting on a chair or the bed?
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Michael:
"If the two main tracks are separate, and there is no connection between the two, then you will have two separate electrical circuits. The inner (freight) track can be DCC without any problem. DCC will activate switch machines that are designed for DCC operation."
Yes, initially the inner and outer loop will be on separate circuits. In fact, I plan to wire it for block control in Phase 1, but I like that I can get switches thrown via DCC. Super!
"If the layout is not too wide, you can have manually operating switches. Using one's hands to throw a switch mimics reality. That's just a thought, and something that keeps the layout electrically simpler."
That's not really an option for a layout near the ceiling.
Thanks for the inputs! I'm still cutting wood for the substrate, so I'm just getting started, but adding land for me is a major undertaking so I want to plan ahead.
Lars
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Ernie:
"Are you putting it at 8' to go over the door and window?"
Yes, the doors have transoms so the lowest I can put the track is 12 inches below a 9' ceiling. More importantly, building code (my wife) won't allow the track to traverse in front of the transom. (Yes, I know, that would be sweet).
"Can you see it alright sitting on a chair or the bed?"
As an observer you can see it fine on the opposite wall in any position and standing in the middle of the room you can see all the action with no problem. The layout I did for my oldest is a simple one train one track setup that is on or off (but he can control the speed up to a maximum I can set remotely).
The new layout I am working on will have switches that can be set manually at first, but I would like to be able to set them remotely in the future.
Do DCC switches trigger from the signal on the rail, or are they wired separately? Is there a way to tell remotely how the switches are set on a DCC system?
Lars
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That sounds cool! A brewery / restaurant we frequent in New Jersey was built in an old freight office next to the tracks. So of course there is a railroad theme. They have a G scale track that runs along the tops of the walls through the dining room and bar, two separate rooms. It goes into a tunnel through the walls. Every few minutes the train comes on through!
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Anglophile -
Great info! I'm not going to have a yard, so I think I can just mount a pair of LEDs at each switch pointing toward the center of the room to indicate switch position (green mainline, red other).
I did a single track elevated layout 10 years ago for my oldest son (so no need for switches or DCC), but I did EVERYTHING I could possibly do at ground level. I even "tried in" the substrates to brackets and made sure the roadbeds lined up before laying track. Then I pulled down the substrates and nailed down almost all of the track except the interface points so I had minimal connections at 8' up!
Lars
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What about decoupling remotely? Is there a way to do that? I would only need 2 or fixed locations. It doesn't have to be DCC.
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I just finished the substrates. This is the top view (the 1x6's expand the layout to fit the room):
The red lines are the track centerlines.
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I have all of the substrate up and fitted, now I'm ready to pull it back down to install roadbed, track, switches, etc. I only plan to make final track connections when I put it back up.
If I buy DCC friendly switches, I can just move them manually until I get DCC, right? Is there a way to wire up simple LED lights that illuminate the red or green light depending on how the switch is set. If so I could drill a small hole and mount the indicators underneath the substrate. There are only a few switches in diverse locations, so it would be rather easy to determine the track configuration from underneath.
Any suggestions for where to shop for roadbed, track, and switches other than Walther's?
The only model railroading I've done was another elevated track for my oldest son eleven years ago and that was just single track with no switches or siding because he was only 4. The new one is for a 13-year-old that wants sidings and a turntable. (He will just have to use a step stool to see the turntable unless I mount a mirror or a camera).
One other thing that would be nice would be a remote uncoupler. Is there such a thing? I would like to add at least 3 of them and I don't care if they all fire at the same time.
Thanks for all the help!
Lars
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"Any suggestions for where to shop for roadbed, track, and switches other than Walther's?"
hobby shops, ebay, model railroad shows, Hobby Lobby (limited supply)
There are remote uncouplers. Kadee makes one, but you'll have to be able to see the train in order to position the car over the device. With DCC, you can buy couplers that uncouple with a push of a button.
I am purposely not answering most of your DCC questions, because my layout is DC. My experiences with DCC are solely as an operator on other peoples' DCC layouts. Chris, however, has a good understanding of DCC. Kalbach also has published manuals regarding how to use DCC, and how to accessorize using DCC.
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01:07:56am
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i would just like to say I think you are awesome for putting so much time into a project with your kids
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"There are remote uncouplers. Kadee makes one, but you'll have to be able to see the train in order to position the car over the device. With DCC, you can buy couplers that uncouple with a push of a button."
DCC sounds ideal because I would only want to uncouple the passenger engine, passenger "caboose", and two or three freight engines. My son can uncouple manually before DCC, and that's good because he has to pay for the DCC upgrade and that will motivate him. I'm providing the basic DC block wired setup and DCC compatible engines. He needs to do chores to get enough for the DCC upgrade. He may do it, because he saved up his chore money for 18 months and bought a computer.
Is there a device that shows how a switch if thrown? Like green for mainline and red for other? I could mount it under the substrate for easy viewing.
"i would just like to say I think you are awesome for putting so much time into a project with your kids "
Thank you, nlroberts! I enjoy this because I remember my father's model railroad growing up. I just wish he were still here to give me advice!
But the good folks on this thread have been very helpful, and I appreciate that.
Lars
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As part of this process I bought a bridge from Central Valley Model Works.
What a disaster! The whole mess goes in the trash and I bought an Atlas bridge as a replacement.
I'm used to detailed model building because my father ALWAYS had a SPECIAL project for me when I visited. It usually took two or three hours the first night, an hour or so in the morning, afternoon, and evening the next day, and a little bit of finish before I left to go back home (10 hours away), but he provided the materials, food, and most importantly, free beer as long as I was building models. It was also good bonding time since he was usually making fine adjustment to the rolling stock while I was building. I remember one project where I ended up stringing high voltage transmission lines (aka silver thread) all over his layout. I also built most of his bridges and trestles because I was good at it.
So I'm not a rookie at this - at least not the model building part. But holy cow, CVMW is a nightmare!
Lars
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11:44:21pm
re: Model Railroad project
There are times when you say why did I ever start down this road... I've been saying it since i was like ten ...
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"There are times when you say why did I ever start down this road... I've been saying it since i was like ten."
I understand, but I was hoping for a project that I could work on with my 13-year-old son, not one his father with an Engineering degree can't manage! I know some of the projects can be a challenge, and I did several for may father, but this was insane!
I'm hopeful that the Atlas bridge will be one my son and I can work on together for his layout. Challenge is good. Attention to detail is great! The bridge from CVMW was horrible!
Lars
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04:08:41am
re: Model Railroad project
I think you are a fine man to care about such matters. We all make make errors of judgement from time to time. After all there are many branches of engineering I wouldn't figure to build a railway trestle if i spent my days studying phasors ....
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Just don't start one one like this, unless you plan on living a long time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-50403561
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Sheepshanks - that's a very impressive layout Rod Stewart has! Thanks for sharing!
Anglophile -
"but to say that it's "horrible" seems a little harsh, to the extent that it implies that it's objectively a poor product."
Fair enough. All I needed was a warning like this: "This product is intended for use in high visibility areas by highly advanced modelers and therefore requires an exceptional level of expertise to even make it structurally sound." I didn't care if mine wasn't as pretty as most, but if I would have known how sensitive the structural integrity was, I would have never bought it. It was a horrible experience for me personally. Others may have different experiences.
And I get that some modellers really get into the details. When I was a kid in the 60's, my father built a trestle about 3 feet tall over a span of about 5 feet for an S gauge railroad from scratch over the period of almost a year. I get it.
But no worries, I think a fix is on its way!
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What's even more impressive about Rod Stewart's layout is that he built most of it himself. He has a friend who helps him. His layout has been featured a couple of times in "Model Railroader" magazine. In the article, Stewart stated that when he is on tour, he brings models to work on in his hotel room between shows.
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Yeah, I think he said he had friend help him mostly with wiring, but he does a lot of his own scenery. Very cool.
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In settling in to my newly reborn interest in modelling plastic airplanes and ships, I've encountered some insanely small parts. A clear "tail light" for a 1/48 Beech Mentor trainer is so small that I couldn't see where it could be cemented, even under high magnification. I have high-quality (i.e. expensive) tweezers with pointed tips no more than a quarter-millimetre wide, but I couldn't pick that part up and hold it with those tweezers, much less manipulate it. In the end, I used a tiny drop of Testor's Clear Parts Cement & Window Maker did the trick. I'm sure there are modellers out there who handle such tiny parts with ease, but I think they are probably bionic! Anyhow, good luck with your project, Lars. You are a dedicated father!
Bob
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Thanks, Bob.
It's all good. I'm learning as I go.
Cheers!
Lars
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I have a wiring question:
I bought eight Peco Streamline Code 100 Insulfrog turnouts. The great thing about them is they only energize the rail they are switched to. That way I can use them as a quasi block control. The layout is such that it only makes sense to switch them in pairs (like a siding that goes off the mainline and back on) so it will be easy to "park" engines or entire trains in a few places. There are 4 pairs of turnouts so I need 8 motors and 4 to 8 remote switches. I would like to control the switches from the AC output and have a feedback of switch position via AC so I can mount red/green LEDs on a control panel to easily see how the points are set.
Obviously I want surface mount motors so they won't be seen. I have the 2020 Walthers catalog but there are so many options I'm not sure which way to go. Any suggestions?
Lars
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Surface switch machines are seen as they on the tabletop. I only have a couple of Peco standard switches on my layout. Since the Peco switch machines do not come in a housing, I bought a couple of small sheds to place on top of the switch machines. Worked perfectly.
AC is fine to use to activate the switch machines.
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I found this:
It's a side-mounted Peco switch machine (PL-11). A bit more expensive, but won't be visible from below. The instructions recommend a PL-26 switch:
I was hoping to throw a pair of turnouts with each switch. That way I only need 5 switches for the 10 motors (I have 10 turnouts, not 8 - I counted wrong). I could mount them in this (PL 27):
I could simplify things and just use the switch positions to indicate how the points are set, I suppose.
The instructions also recommend a capacitor discharge unit (CDU) - PL-35
That might be a good idea if I am going to throw two motors per switch. I saw a You Tube video of someone doing just that.
Do I split the AC output and run one line to any scenery lights I want and run the other through the CDU and then the switches?
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I would not use the same AC outlet for the switches and other accessories. Buy an old power pack and use the AC outlet for the lights. You can use the DC outlet for the lights as well. That will let you dim them, using the power pack as a large resister. That is how I do it. You can find them (cheapo Tyco or Bachmann power pack) for just a few dollars at train shows. You don't need a fancy one.
The capacitor discharge unit does two things:
- gives a strong shot of electricity to the switch machines, usually around 30 volts. It won't hurt the machines
- The switch machines will overheat and burn out if the power is maintained for more than a few seconds. The capacitor discharge unit discharges all the electricity with one shot. The capacitor cannot recharge as long as the button used to throw the switch machine is held down, and no harm will come to the switch machine. There are plans out there to where you can build your own. I did that many years ago.
To activate those switch machines, you will need a momentary push button slide controller. I don't think the one you showed works that way. Atlas makes such a controller. What I did when I used them was to paint fluorescent red on the side of the slide button that indicated the diverging route. It was easy to see when a switch was off the mainline. Atlas has a device that can be used to provide light indicators for the switches. Atlas has a wiring book that explains the use of all their electronic components. It is a good book for learning model railroad electronics.
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Thanks, Michael! There are two mainlines so I will have two transformers. I will use the AC on one for lights and the other for switches. I was thinking about using CAT6 cable for the lights and telephone wiring for the switch machines. I have lots of spare of each. I will definitely get that Atlas wiring book!
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Using a small gauge wire will cause a sharp drop in voltage the farther the electricity has to travel. Since you'll be pushing 30 volts through the wires to activate the switch machines, I would use nothing smaller than 18 gauge wire. 20 or 22 gauge wires is good enough for powering accessory lights.
For those unfamiliar with wire sizes, the smaller the gauge number, the thicker the wire.
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I thought the ground burial telephone wire I had was bigger. I have some 18/3 thermostat wire laying around. That should work. I used 14/2 intercom wire for the DC power to the rails.
My big challenge now is learning how to make a splice in flex track in a 34" curve. When I did the last one the curves were all 22" radius and I bought prefab curved pieces to be sure the curves were perfect. I wish there was an L shaped bracket I could mount on the outside of the outer rail to keep the curve smooth.
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You want the moveable rail on the inside of the curve. Make sure before you cut the rail that the rails are joined to the piece of track that you are working from. It is easy to overlook the loose rail not being connected.
When I work with flex track, i make sure I have an extra piece just in case I make a mistake cutting a piece. Take it easy, and you'll see that it isn't so difficult, especially after a little practice. If you have rail nippers, the job goes even easier. I like the ones made by Xuron. Micro-Mark is a good resource for model railroading tools.
Here's a link with a video to guide you:
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And this is why Rod Stewart did all the work except the electrical!
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Electrical sure does stymie many model railroaders. Scenery work does too, although it is quite simple to do.
I have a friend who many years ago built a free-lanced layout. He tried wiring the layout, but was unable to do it right. He then got someone to rewire it for him. That didn't work either. Then he asked me to take a look at it. I couldn't figure out what the two of them did! I offered to rewire the layout for him, but he decided that he would just run the trains around the main circle of track.
He has since moved from his house, and with his new bride bought another (farther away, unfortunately). He built a large shed in the backyard, and will build a new layout in it. He already asked me for help. I guess I'll soon be "playing" trains at his new house, and probably spending a few nights there too. That'll be fun.
By the way, his old layout was not tossed in the landfill. He donated it to a local Boy Scout Troop, and from my understanding, they are having fun with it. The scouts also learned , in addition to the other aspects of the hobby, how to wire a layout as their Scout Master is a model railroader!
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"Scenery work does too, although it is quite simple to do."
Agreed, some folks just don't have the eye or skills for scenery work. I love to build little details. This is G-scale to you, 1/25 scale to me. Nearly everything you see here was scratch built.
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Tom, wonderful details! However, is the toilet seat down?
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I love it, Tom! Especially the Victor mousetrap and the Hot Rod magazine. I don't want to know about the green stuff on the plate!
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"You want the moveable rail on the inside of the curve. "
My flex rail alternates missing tie connectors so there isn't a fixed rail.
"Make sure before you cut the rail that the rails are joined to the piece of track that you are working from. It is easy to overlook the loose rail not being connected."
Yup, did that.
"When I work with flex track, i make sure I have an extra piece just in case I make a mistake cutting a piece. "
I think I have two or three extra pieces, so no worries there.
"If you have rail nippers, the job goes even easier. I like the ones made by Xuron."
That's where I was struggling! I was using an Atlas Super Saw from the last layout,
but I only had a few cuts with the prefab curves, single track simple loop on the old one. With the dual track and all of the turnouts and the reverse curve on the new one, I am definitely trying a rail cutter. Just bought a pair of Xuron rail cutters on sale at Walthers. Hopefully that will speed things up!
"Here's a link with a video to guide you:"
Thanks for the helpful link!!
Lars
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Back in my "rookie" model railroading days, I first cut flex track with a saw like you. Then I went to a Dremel tool. It was difficult to get the proper cut. The I got the rail cutter to. That changed everything.
What brand flex track are you using?
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"Back in my "rookie" model railroading days, I first cut flex track with a saw like you. Then I went to a Dremel tool. It was difficult to get the proper cut."
I tried using a Milwaukee end cutter with a metal cutting blade to similar effect. Hard to keep engaged on the rail.
"What brand flex track are you using?"
Life-Like Code 100 Nickel Silver. I do everything in Nickel Silver so I don't have to clean it and I tend to stick with code 100. With the track itself invisible at 7' overhead, why not?
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I have used the same and Model Power as well. Mostly I use the Atlas brand. No real difference between them. All have been reliable on my layout since I began construction back in 1993.
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The bridge kit just arrived. That will keep me busy for a while!
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I guess we'll hear back from you after you cross that bridge!
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And cross that bridge I did, David. (I know that's really David with the sick puns)!
The Peco switch motors, switches, and CDU came in and I was finally able to create a recipe for firing two turnouts with one switch. I couldn't find the Atlas wiring book Michael suggested, but I did find one from Model Railroader. My father had that subscription for decades so I figured the info would be worthwhile and at first glance I don't think I will be disappointed!
I'm really at a standstill now, though, because the rail cutter won't be here until Monday and my wife returns tomorrow, so I have to tear everything down until after Thanksgiving because we have lots of company coming in and I have stuff strewn all over the guest spaces because I can (until she gets back, that is).
So far so good, and thanks to all you experts for helping me out!
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and I will post something in December when a milestone is reached. Everything is still at ground level for now testing sections of track, and I plan to put everything together in the great room for a final check before installing each piece in the final location.
Cheers!
Lars
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LOOKING FOR IDEAS:
I want to build a falling rock area and containment fence (probably using some aluminum screen material). Has anyone done something like that?
Lars
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Because we have had company all week I have only been able to spend limited time in my shop working on small objects, but I was able to work on the Rivarossi passenger cars. I knew they were under-weighted and Michael suggested 1 ounce plus 1/2 ounce per inch.
I was pleased to see that the cars already had metal wheels, knuckle couplers, and interiors (6 of 8 cars). I got them all weighted up using fishing sinkers attached symmetric with the center of gravity with Walthers Goo.
So far, so good, but the admittedly subjective value I gave each car for rolling ability showed a LOT of variability. On a scale of 0 to 4, where 0 means the wheels are mostly locked up and you have to slide the car along the rails, and 4 which means the car will roll freely on a flat surface with little problem, one would hope for 3s and 4s, but I have 3 ones, 2 twos, and 3 threes.
I checked under magnification and it isn't that some of the wheels are too big and impinging on the brake shoes on the truck. Is there maybe a lubricant I need to replenish on these plastic trucks?
Lars
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01:09:51am
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if you need to lubricate something gently I can only suggest Maxima 74920 Chain Wax - 13.5 oz. Aerosol. Yes its sold for motorcycles but i use it on my mountain bike and many other things....
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for your containment i'd suggest a bit of pea gravel and some chicken wire or a similar mesh
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The car weight formula I gave you is the hobby standard established by the National Model Railroad Association.
Do you know if the wheel sets are original to the cars? Sometimes replacement wheel sets do not sit properly in the trucks.
Also, if the cars are lighted, sometimes the wipers that sit on the axles cause friction that prevent the cars from rolling freely.
I would not use the oil that Nancy suggests (sorry). Heavy duty oil can soften the plastic used on the models.
You could try using a hobby oil, or graphic powder. I got away from using oil, and have long preferred graphite powder.
For the oil, Labelle 107 is probably best.
For the graphite, there are two that I have found that I like:
- Hob-E-Lube dry graphite with molybdenum
- Woodland Scenics KLR8 ultra graphite
For the issues you are having, I prefer using the Hob-E-Lube graphite. You can find a tube of it wherever the Pine Car kits are sold, like Hobby Lobby.
The Woodland Scenics product has a long, very thin needle that gets clogged all the time, so I found I don't like to use it for that reason.
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Anglophile,
I like the idea for creating rock fall, but why not use silver fine mesh screen-door material for the fencing? Too rigid?
"With the cars high off the floor, the brake shoes aren’t going to be seen. I would sand or file them down, or even trim them off. The need for regular lubrication will just lead to frustration."
Yes, but the brake shoes are not rubbing, at all, and I hate to damage the cars. I suspect the friction is the axles in the trucks.
Michael,
I don't know if the wheel sets are original or not. The early sets had no interiors and hookhorn couplers, but these have interiors and knuckle couplers. I don't know if later versions with interiors also included metal wheels and knuckle couplers. I know there are after-market products available for both. No lights, so no issue there. I have some Hob E Lube left over from when my boys did Pinewood Derby so I will give that a go. I wrote down the initial weight, modified weight, and rolling ease for each car so I will take a car rated 1 (bad) and visually inspect under magnification for any burrs, then add the Hob E Lube, and see if it improves. Thanks!
BTW, I have enough track laid that I was able to verify that the Proto 2000 engine can pull all of the cars as is. Any improvements just increase my top speed.
Thanks again, everyone!
Lars
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Micro-Mark has a small tool that reshapes the bearing where the wheel axle point goes to NMRA standard. It also cleans out any plastic burrs, dirt and grime.
It works good, but it's expensive ($19.95).
#82838 HO Truck Tuner.
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$20 isn't cheap, but a lot less than replacing 16 trucks and 15 couplers!
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"Screen door material is not to scale. Oversized."
OK. I understand. I'm just not that worried about scale. I have a passenger train that is 9 feet long - almost 800 scale feet. After one loop around the track, it hasn't even traveled one scale mile.
"A better place for your questions is the Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine forum"
I like the answers here because:
1. This is a one-off project and I don't plan any others after it. I've received several VERY good suggestions here without being inundated with advice for someone planning to build an entire new layout.
2. The advice here is from people that understand that model railroading is a secondary hobby.
Thanks!
Lars
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" The advice here is from people that understand that model railroading is a secondary hobby. "
Model Railroading offers me much more socially than stamp collecting ever has. I find a greater diversity in model railroading as each hobbyist creates something unique, and invites others to visit/operate on it. Discussions involve plenty of history and comparisons how each hobbyist's railroad varied/interacted with the other. Discussions can last for hours.
In the rare times when I socialize with stamp collecting, it is usually with one or two people, not a group/team. The conversation usually doesn't last all that long either.
I consider model railroading to be my primary hobby. I spend more time with this hobby than I do with stamps. I find it to be more multi-faceted and challenging than stamp collecting. Stamp collecting, however, does offer quiet, relaxing time for oneself.
I find model railroading to be more of a group/team activity, while stamp collecting is primarily a solitary activity.
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Michael,
I appreciate all of your help. Those rail cutters are AWESOME! I only have 4 cuts left to go and I can't tell that they are getting dull yet. I did learn to watch out for ricochets if you cut off a tiny piece of rail!
Because my only two layouts are in my sons' bedrooms, this is about as solo as stamp and coin collecting for me. I get lots of great advice online, but I have to execute by myself. (If my father was still alive it would be a different story!).
I do share your love of history not only in stamps, but in model railroading. To me, the difference is familiarity. If I learn about a stamp from Sarawak featuring the Brooke Rajas, I have to look that up! And if you and I met some day and discussed that topic, we would tell each other what we have learned. But when making a model railroad, you can relive history. I intentionally bought an Illinois Central passenger train to add to my son's layout. I also bought a postcard showing an ICRR passenger train crossing Kentucky Dam and a timetable from 1961 when his E7 engine would have been a workhorse. If ANYONE else in this area my age saw this, not just model railroaders, they might share their memories of the City of New Orleans train from Chicago, meeting the St. Louis train in Carbondale, and headed to New Orleans.
But I'm not really creating a "model railroad". If I were, I would include a spur for the actual railroad that my grandfather's grandfather founded to support his coal mine. I would also include topographical features, including the mine entrance and nearby shanty town. Now THAT would lead to some discussions!
I look forward to visiting your layout some day. I am way past due for a trip to Texas!
Lars
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01:14:38am
re: Model Railroad project
i dunno saying stamp collecting is a solitary activity is like saying scientific research is a solitary activity. An individual experiment/examination may be individual but generally it is only through sharing info/results that progress is achieved. ... its a matter of degree ... I can paint by number but my partner can make a painting in 57 shades of blue ...I might say... how many shades of small queens are there really?... but if stamp collecting amounts to putting stickers on a page then i would say yes stick to the model railroads ... HO HO HO ... I like model railroads too ... and so many other things ... how can anyone ever say they are bored... its all good
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My layout is open for visitations. I have given many one-on-one tours. All I ask is to give me a couple of day's notice so I can have time to clean up any work I might be doing, and to make the layout presentable.
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"All I ask is to give me a couple of day's notice"
Not a problem. I have to plan my vacations several months in advance due to my job. I'm making the trip in the next 18 months for sure. It's been too long! My best friend is in Dallas (and he visited me recently) and my best friend from college lives in Pfluggerville. Right in your neck of the woods!
I have a question about lighting. I bought the book from Model Railroader "Wiring your Model Railroad" because I couldn't find the book you suggested for sale anywhere. But I don't know how to determine what I need in the way of resistors in specific circumstances.
I only have 3 places for lighting and initially it's just going to be a few street lamps as a test. (I designed it so more extensive scenery modules, with lighting, can be put in place later). The instructions tell me to "Connect wires to an AC or DC power source with a maximum output of 12 volts".
I have two power packs with DC going to two different mainlines and AC from one pack going to switch motors and the other to lighting. The AC output is advertised at 19 VAC. Is there a good reference source that tells me how to resolve that?
I just need to know how to deal with these street lights now, but it would be nice to have a reference I can use to answer later questions.
Lars
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I use cheap power packs that I get for a few dollars at train shows. I may have an extra one lying around. I'll have to look and get back to you on that. I may even have a home made power supply that has reduced voltage built in. I just have to go through my train show bins and see what's still left from the last show.
Anyway, connect the lights to the DC terminals. That way you can use the throttle to regulate (a sort of resister) how bright you want the lights to be.
Note: this will not work with LEDs.
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now there's a word ... LED ... you won't find in those old model RR mags ... quite a revolution tho now i think about it...
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"I use cheap power packs"
I don't want to do that. I already have a very compact control panel designed and I don't want to add another piece. Besides, lighting will be VERY modest. I just need a way to step 19V AC down to 16V AC. I have no need to dim the lights in my application.
I have another question that I'm going to take Anglophile's suggestion on and place on the Model RR forum because it's rather obscure. I may post this as well.
BTW, rail cutters are just now getting dull - and I'm done laying track! They aren't bad, but I had to use a file to smooth off the last few cuts. I have two more turnout switches to wire up and then I can finish testing all of my turnout switches before putting the layout up in my son's room and running some trains!
Lars
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If your lights are 12V, and you use 16V for them, the lights won't last very long. Also, running lights at full voltage will also shorten their life. Cutting 12V down to 10V will keep the lights burning for quite some time. I have lights that were used on my high school layout that are still working at the lower voltage. Usually, you don't need full voltage anyway. I'm not sure where you will be using the lights.
When I am fiddling around with dropping voltage, I always use a spare light for testing that is comparable to the one that will be used on the layout, or I use a volt meter.
http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/Dropping_Resistor_Calc.html
The above link will let you calculate which dropping resister you will need to meet your needs. You will have to scroll down a little bit to get to the calculator.
I entered, for example:
- 19 volts (the starting voltage)
- 10 volts (the desired voltage)
- 0.05 AMPs for the current draw of one light (not an LED)
The results called for a dropping resister of 180 OHMs with 0.45 minimum wattage.
Resister packages will have the OHM and wattage information on the pack.
Here another link that seems to be easy to understand (from all that OHMS Law jargon). I haven't seen this site before. I have it bookmarked now. It also explains how to easily drop voltage in half, and shows the electrical layout:
"To divide voltage in half, all you must do is place any 2 resistors of equal value in series and then place a jumper wire in between the resistors. At this point where the jumper wire is placed, the voltage will be one-half the value of the voltage supplying the circuit."
http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/How-to-reduce-voltage-with-resistors.php
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"If your lights are 12V, and you use 16V for them, the lights won't last very long."
16V was a typo.
"The above link will let you calculate which dropping resister you will need to meet your needs."
THAT'S what I was looking for, thanks!!!
"Cutting 12V down to 10V will keep the lights burning for quite some time."
Really??? That's good to know! I will certainly do that!
Thanks again.
I posted my other question on the Model RR forum:
"I am building an elevated loop in my son's bedroom. I bought a PROTO 2000 E7 engine and a full set of Rivarossi passenger cars. They already have knuckle couplers and I added the appropriate amount of weight to each car. I am testing everything at ground level and when I run at high speed I experience a lot of decoupling. The curves are 28 to 30" radius, so it's not because of tight turns.
I assume that the cheap truck mounted couplers are the problem, but because this railroad will be 8' off the ground (9' ceiling), you won't be able to see the couplers anyway except when the train passes over a bridge. My first thought was to use the appropriate diameter clear plastic tubing to create a "lock" on the couplers. Has anyone tried this?"
That seems like a more specialized question.
I really appreciate all of your help, Michael!
Lars
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I only got two responses on the Model RR forum: One said to use the drawbar that connects steam locos to tenders (not a bad idea, but I didn't want to modify the cars) and the other suggestion was to add a resistor to slow the train down to a crawl. I found a draw bar at Walther's that I could attach to the couplers, but how to connect to the necks that attach to the trucks? Then it hit me. Just use twist ties (like on loaves of bread) to hold the couplers together! I will give that a try.
All track and turnout switches tested. Now I'm taking it apart, hauling it to my son's room, and reassembling up high. Then I will test again before wiring the control panel that I haven't even built yet (but it is drawn up and I have all of the materials).
Hoping for a Christmas Day demo of the two mainlines. Control panel wiring? Sounds like a good Winter project!
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The converter is nothing more in principle than a dropping resister. It will get hot as well. There is no other way to drop voltage without giving off heat. Look at the large heat sink on the device. I'm not saying not to use it. It does the job nicely, just like a power pack does.
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I like that idea! I have two power packs so I will get two of those things. Both power packs are 19V AC for accessories. I'm going to use one to power the turnout switches. Peco says 16V max AC on the switches, but I bought the capacitor discharge unit and it says 16V AC or 12V DC so I can dial it down to 12V DC and be good to go. The lights say 12V AC or DC max. I can dial that one down to 10V DC and go up as high as 12V DC if needed. I like the ability to make adjustments and I found one on Amazon with a digital readout and a tuning knob. Bought two and paid $25 shipping to get them here before Christmas. (This whole project is kind of a Christmas present). I found a couple of domestic 12V CPU fans that I can use to blow air over the heatsinks since they will be mounted behind the power packs on a shelf. Those were less than $4 each including shipping and tax and they will be here before Christmas.
Do you think there would be a problem running one of the fans at 10V? I can give it a try if you don't think I will hurt anything. I can wire them both from the 12V output, but I would prefer to wire the fan from the actual Buck converter it is cooling in case my son turns off only one power pack (or it fails).
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I don't know how much voltage a commercial capacitor discharge unit sends out, but I built one from plans, and it sent out 35 volts. I have a couple of Peco switch machines in addition to all the other switch machines I have. The duration of the electric charge to the switch machines is just a split second. I never had a problem with over powering the switch machines. You want a good shot of voltage to ensure that the switch points are closed when the switch is thrown.
The maximum voltage from the manufacturers of the switch machines is for when a capacitor discharge unit is not used, because too long of a burst of electricity will burn out the switch machines.
The fans should run at 10 volts. It's when you go above the fan motor voltage rating that you get into trouble. At a couple of volts less, the fan will run a little slower, but the fan motor will run cooler too. If you drop the voltage too much, the fan motor may not be able to start.
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"If your son holds the buttons down after the CDU has discharged, the CDU will try to pull 3 amps through from the power pack."
Not possible. I'm using Peco burst switches that fire one burst from the CDU and that's it. I suppose if he were to toggle the switch back and forth rapidly he may cause a problem, but if he did something that stupid, he shouldn't have a model railroad!
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The project is now complete! Turned over the keys today.
Here is the control panel. Passenger main line on left, freight main line on right.
There are currently 4 engines on the layout. You can see 3 from this shot:
Two of the corners have a siding off of the freight main line so small trains (e.g Switch engines with a few cars) can be parked there. The switches are thrown in pairs using Peco Insulfrog turnouts so only the selected path is energized. Note the Railroad crossing signs. Those are O gauge scale to make them plenty visible and used to indicate the limits of safe parking on the sidings. I experimented with a small convex mirror in the corner but it needs to be much bigger!
Here is my favorite part:
You can see the ICRR passenger engine in the background and the freight engine in the foreground. That's my oldest son's engine. The ICRR engine I bought was sent back so I am going to try again on the ICRR main line freight engine. I have an ICRR switch engine (not shown) and I may get another one to replace the Santa Fe engine.
Again the Railroad crossing signs indicate switch placement (a freight train can be "parked" on the bridge with the loop inside the passenger line energized instead). The glare makes the polycarbonate barrier easily seen.
The water tower honors a nearby tower in Makanda, IL:
I ended up bypassing the buck converter for the CDU. It works much better direct from the auxilliary AC output even though it's over the rated voltage.
Many thanks to everyone for all the help!
Lars
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That's a great job! I especially like how you did the control panel.
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This on BBC site today for you railway folks.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-london-51932009/the-steampunk-model-railway-enthusiast-having-designs-used-by-hornby
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