International mailing is so frustrating these days and prohibitively expensive.
I read your post yesterday and thought "At last. Someone taking a common sense approach to international postage". Seems my thoughts were incorrect. The subject of posting stamps across borders was aired on another SoR forum several months ago. Doomsayers were threatening to suspend international sales because of costs. While these people disentangled their underwear, most others simply went on doing what we had always done. That is, putting stamps inside envelopes, taking them to the post office and mailing them at the letter rate. Your post yesterday sensibly mentioned separating larger numbers of stamps into small amounts which could go into letter sized envelopes and posting a large consignment in more than 1 mail. While this was a little more bother for yourself and your customer, the cost savings to your customers is significant.
No Post Office anywhere in the world is about to start opening greetings cards, letters from home, or business mail to check the possible value of any illicit trade busting items. They want mail out of their system and on your doormat as soon as humanly possible. Nor are law enforcement agencies interested in letter sized envelopes, except I believe in scanning for illicit substances which is done while the envelopes are sealed.
My advice to all is to send small amounts by letter mail, and break larger amounts into small bundles, and then send them all by letter mail to save money.
Note: The "advice" given in the post above is contrary to the law, and is not supported or condoned by Stamporama.
A very wise man advised me when I was faced with a similar "suggestion":
This "suggestion" is that the seller should break the law and lie on a customs document about contents. This "suggestion" is requesting that the seller become a smuggler and a criminal. There is no risk to the buyer if this "suggestion" is followed. But the seller risks having his goods seized and being fined and possibly charged. The buyer could then claim that they never received the goods and have their payment refunded. Thus the seller would lose both the goods AND the money. But sure, why not ask the seller to do this "favor" for you.
The law is the LAW. If you don't like it, try to CHANGE it, but don't try to convince others to become liars and criminals to save YOU a few dollars.
I am a Canadian buyer and see both sides. If people are going to charge the legal amount they should probably let the buyer know in their information. That means that I would make sure that, for those people, I make sure I buy a large enough amount to make the extra charge bearable. I have got some excellent material from the people who charge the full amount and have no regrets. But would I pay the full shipping amount for a very small order? I don't think so - I would probably ask them to hold off on the invoice until I got up to at least $20 in sales, if possible. Sometimes that's hard to do since some sellers only rarely list items I want. Maybe in that case I would either pay the entire amount or maybe they would agree to cancel the sale. I know that's against your policy but I've had sellers ask me if I wanted to do just that. It is a major dilemma, do the sellers continue charging the lower amount, or not. Maybe they are afraid to increase the amount in case they lose sales? Your guess is as good as mine!
"No Post Office anywhere in the world is about to start opening greetings cards, letters from home, or business mail to check the possible value of any illicit trade busting items."
Well - my post office does. They also open and inspect "book rate" parcels and if either the buyer or seller wants those illegal goods they are welcome to them after paying full priority mail charges.
Full agreement with Michael and Philatelia here. Stealing from the post office results in higher rates for all. Just like shoplifting - it is not a victimless crime.
As I implied in my earlier post the doomsayers were getting their knickers in a twist. I worked for Royal Mail, and I have a hobby which in a very small way contributes to keeping them afloat. My post was in relation to Larryd dealing with a package of stamps worth 10 US dollars. I had read his previous post in which he volunteered to split the 1000 stamps into smaller packages to save on postage costs. I applauded his understanding of a problem which other members also understood. I questioned his willingness to jump ship at the first sign of a problem.
I at no time invited anyone to break any law or bend any rule. I made an observation about postal operators, law enforcement agencies, and revenue collectors and the methods which they actually do use. I had checked before responding and no duty is payable on items with a value below £39 (about 50 US dollars) on goods imported into the United Kingdom, which is well below Larryd's BIN price. I will wager it is also massively below the average transaction value on both this and other stamp trading sites.
Since my earlier post, I enquired from both Royal Mail and HMRC for them to be more specific on importing and exporting stamps to and from the UK. My post was simply a response to people saying there is a problem where no real problem exists. I trade stamps with other members of SoR, mostly by swapping, and neither myself or them have complained to each other, or on this forum, about high postage costs. In every case we have used letter post rather than parcel post and I was simply stating that in almost every case it will be less expensive than using parcel post.
I firmly believe most members here ignore the prophets of doom and simply deal with postage in the most efficient and easy way, in the full knowledge that the packet of stamps they are posting are fully legal and will be treated no differently from the millions of other postal items handled daily.
We are talking about two different things - import tariffs and postage fees due to postal regulations . Of course these packets can be imported into the UK and other countries without tariffs because of their low value.
BUT If you state ANY value on the customs document, you can NOT post the item using regular postage fees - they MUST be sent parcel post. Those are the international UPU regulations. First class international mail is for documents ONLY - no goods with value.
Also - sending stamps for trades is different than shipping them as a seller. A trade does not cause money to change hands - it's not a business transaction.
Listen - sending a few stamps in a one or two ounce envelope is one thing, but trying to mail large quantities of stamps and attempting to camouflage them as a "document" just won't work.
I ran into this first hand several times with my local post office and did the research to see if there was any workaround.
I don't think it is wise to mislead people into thinking what they are doing is all sunshine and rainbows. I think people need to know what the rules and regulations state. If they then choose to violate those rules knowingly that's their decision. Ignorance of the law is never a valid excuse.
First-Class Mail® International Letter**
Max. length 11-1/2", height 6-1/8" or thickness 1/4"
Value of contents can not exceed $0.00
S
And - hey - I didn't write these crappy rules - just sharing what I learned.
Also - the United States Postal Service may be much less lenient than the Royal Mail. Everything I’ve written is based on the United States Postal Service rules and practices.
I'd like to thank those that contributed both answers and opinions to my query. I went back and found some prior discussions of the subject which had taken place during my inactivity on this site which were also very informative.
As a result, when I post a new large lot in a few days I'll be updating my terms to indicate that sales to addresses other than USA, APO, FPO and DPO will incur postal charges at International, First-Class Package rates. The rates that I have searched seem to fall between $10.50 and $14.25 which, in my opinion, is too much to pay for stamps valued somewhere between $1.00 and $9.00, but I'd rather offer this option than arbitrarily shut out our international SOM members from being able to bid if they wish.
I have one other question...one that will probably sound pretty stupid, but at this point I'm not about to assume ANYTHING. Is there any reason that I would be prohibited from using the same large envelopes that I use for mailing these lots to US addresses for foreign addresses too and simply calling the mailing a First Class Package rather than a First Class Letter?
I recently posted 2 parcels to USA. First one was a gift of covers to an SoR member. I took it to my local post office, filled in a customs declaration form, and I asked for the cheapest means of posting. I was given the seamail price at around £3.00, which I accepted as the items were a gift (I am a real cheapskate). 4 days later I received an email thanking me for sending them so promptly. Make of that what you will, but I suspect Royal Mail golfer and sent the parcel by air.
Before Christmas, I posted around 1000 stamps to another SoR member at no cost to him. Again, the correct procedure was followed, I filled in customs declaration saying these SoN stamps were of no value (which was true) and posted them at letter rate. Again the cost was around £3.00. I received a lovely email thanking me for safe arrival on January 6. On both occasions I correctly followed procedure and did nothing illegal or devious.
If members follow the rules and are sending a few stamps worth little or no value, in a letter, similar to most SoR transactions, you will not be behaving improperly and are extremely unlikely to get into trouble. Most sane people know that, and, like me, continue to send stamps by post while properly obeying rules in the United Kingdom, which by implication, apply to all UPU member countries.
Finally, in answer to larryd's query about letter posting internationally, fill out the customs declaration with the correct value for the goods, and send them at letter rate. I think that is how I would handle it. Of course, I am glad to say my local postal workers have not yet begun interrogating me about the contents, not do they open philatelic mail.
I've been trying to figure out whether I should mention this or not, but here goes! I buy a fair bit from SOR and decided it would be interesting to go through my invoices. Now I realize some were from overseas and some were from Canada but the majority were from The US. Out of about 93 invoices there were 2 where the shipping cost reflected the rate we are discussing. I would say at least 50 had to be US which means that only 4% reflected the fact that the law is being followed. Would anyone like to comment on this?
If you are saying that 96% are openly violating the law "just a little bit" think about this for a minute. Let's say your son or daughter is in their last semester in college and cheats "just a little bit" and the professor kicks them out of class. They now have to put things on hold to make up that class and you are stuck with the bill and they are perhaps stuck explaining to an interested employer that they have to make up a class over the summer.
You have a chat with them and their defense is "But dad (or mom) - you talk about how you save a couple of bucks on postage by not classifying your mailings correctly - what's the difference?" Go ahead - answer them.
Sound far fetched - you would be surprised. I have kicked graduating seniors out of my college classes for cheating (and for plagiarism). I don't care who their parents are and I don't care what "plans" it screws up. I make the consequences clear at the start of class, in my syllabus, and throughout the semester.
This comment is limited to the question asked. I have totally given up trying to convince anyone that they should follow the law - totally and completely given up.
Carol, too many people either do not understand or ignore what intentionally underpaying or not paying for a service really is.
'
I will admit to more than a little sympathy for folks who are having a hard time accepting the new if-it-is-worth-anything-it-goes-as-a-parcel rule; I am one of them.
Not long ago, I sent a few near-zero-value covers (recent CVP) to one of our forum brothers. It was a domestic shipment, so all I needed to do was pay the rate for a coupla-ounce flat.
Instead, I pulled an old 1-cm-thick science journal out of the recycling bin, hacked-out a 'secret compartment' of the sort you would use to smuggle drugs or weapons, inserted the covers, and sent the journal by media mail.
Dumb joke, but it gave me a laugh as I prepared the shipment and, later, the recipient told me that it had given him a laugh when he opened the shipment, so the fact that it probably cost more (in both postage & carbon footprint) to send the journal than it would to send a flat was money well spent.
Less funny was that I recently offered two old niche philatelic journals as a giveaway, and the best-qualified recipient was somewhere up in Canada. FIFTEEN DOLLARS !@#$%!
Color me annoyed, but I've written it off as the cost of being Mr Nice Guy - the shipping is now the gift, more than the contents - and will continue to sprinkle my gifts wherever they need to go, regardless of the postage.
After all, the postal system has been one of the great bargains of my life, so if I'm getting shafted these days, now & again, it still works out to being one of the great bargains of my life.
Next up: an auction catalog that will be off to Australia. Ouch!
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
The issue is the UPU and USPS rules imposed on the users of the service. If you mailed something to someone on a border town and they hand carried it across, the UPU/USPS rules do not apply. In this case, typical custom laws apply.
I wonder if those guys who threw the tea into Boston harbour worried too much about the rules;-) If I have the history wrong please correct me as I'm not American.
Those who threw the Tea Party did so because they were being taxed without representation (we were a colony of England).
Today we vote every two years and have representation. We can pretty much vote for higher or lower taxes.
We (the US and a few other countries) said we were going to pull out of the UPU and forced them to come up with a plan that will eventually even things out. The high rates we in the US are paying now is because other countries felt we were not paying our share (a portion of the rate goes to the country that has to deliver our mail).
This was, in effect, similar to another Tea Party.
All of this is nothing new - it has been repeated ad nauseum in numerous threads on all the major stamp boards including this one for well over a year.
Definitely a cultural gap here.
In the USA, the Feds have made penalties for disregarding Governmental rules very stiff. Many violations are punishable by heavy fines AND jail time. A lot of this goes back to prohibition era laws that the Federal government used to put people like Capone behind bars. Compare that to countries like Italy where you get a slap on your wrist for not paying taxes.
Kinda reminds me of that line from the pirate movie - in some countries folks view regulations this way “they aren’t so much rules as guidelines”.
"Definitely a cultural gap here. "
There surely is. When was anyone ever heavily fined, or thrown in jail for sending 10 dollars worth of stamps internationally by letter post to a stamp collector? I may disagree with some statements made by people posting here, but on this I am working very hard to keep my face straight.
When I initially posted that most people simply post items at letter rate because the value is below that at which duty is levied I was speaking from experience. I have not yet received stamps from the USA which have had a customs declaration form attached. But then, I have not yet spent more than £39 on a single transaction, the level below which duty is applied to goods entering Great Britain. When posting stamps to the USA from GB, I always fill in a CDF when sending sold stamps, or write on the envelope or parcel "Philatelic Items" when sending stamps at no cost to the recipient.
My experience of postal matters comes from 30 months working as a postal engineer with Royal Mail, the oldest postal service in the world, and 10 years working with Neopost as a salesman and manager, plus a lifetime of sending and receiving mail. To date I have never had any undue interference from either tax or law enforcement bodies in relation to postal matters. I spoke from experience when stating postal bodies are only interested in getting mail off their premises and into customers hands. Law enforcement are only interested in catching criminals, and someone who sends a few stamps at a reduced rate will not be on their radar. I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I suspect those who send goods to me aren't either.
Has any member encountered a problem yet? If so let's hear about it. I can just imagine what would happen here if someone was arrested and thrown in jail, or even heavily fined for sending stamps in a letter envelope rather than a parcel, or misdeclaring or, worse still, failing to declare 10 dollars worth of stamps. I suspect even the conservative American people would not accept that pill without a battle. Governments have bigger fish to fry than biting a hand which supports their postal service.
LoL awww Gudgie - no that’s not what I meant. The point I was trying to make is that folks here tend to be very hesitant to mess with federal regulations because those policing can and will make an example out of some poor dumb schmuck if they want to. Nobody wants to BE the dumb schmuck!
Recently there have been crackdowns on several fronts. One of the most annoying to me is that I can no longer apply a bunch of stamps to a little packet and leave it in my mailbox. I have to physically hand it to a clerk. Supposedly that is an anti terrorism policy.
And they are opening mail with lots of stamps on the envelope - I’ve had a few inspected. Why - who knows. Checking for anthrax spores? Sheesh! Someone somewhere determined that terrorists use stamps or some such ballyhoo.
I’ve had mail returned for a lack of a customs form. For years I sent small trades - maybe 200 stamps - to friends in Canada and Europe without needing the forms. Now you have to put them on there or you get them back.
And I’ve been through that “must send parcel rate” with the clerks. That meant either pay through the nose or take it home and repackage it.
So you have the ethical imperative - ie it’s the law and it’s right to pay your fair share - plus you have to weigh which is the greater PITA - paying now or getting caught and paying much more later.
So maybe now you can better understand why some people here in the USA are sticklers about following the rules.
Our postmaster is the same with anything to a foreign destination. And if you attach a customs form and use stamps it is required that it be handed to a window clerk which on a busy day can take 15 to 20 minutes. Try to circumvent it and the envelope is delivered back to your house the next day.
They check a high percentage of media mail outbound and inbound. A 25 pound package sent from my house to California costs $15 media mail, $76 2 day priority, and $168 next day. If there are items in the box that are not media you will have to pay the high rate to get the box - if you refuse the sender can have their goods back by paying the high rate, otherwise I presume it is destroyed.
I have shipped Scott catalogs by media mail in the past but supposedly told that since they contain advertising they do not qualify as media mail. If there is a heavy package (heavier than some standard book size) presented as media mail, I suspect it is more likely not. One could argue media mail should not even get a special rate. You don't with UPS or FedEx.
"... One could argue media mail should not even get a special rate. You don't with UPS or FedEx ..."
The public good argument may not stand the test of time especially since printed media is less important to society as evidenced by decline in printed publications. It was public policy by a government associated group in different times. When new competitors arrived they were not forced to follow the same policy.
and, no, Scott's catalogues would not be eligible for media mail because of the advertising content.
"... The public good argument may not stand the test of time ..."
Philatelia, you say you were taken out of context. Were you also taken out of context when, in an earlier post, you said people who send small quantities of stamps over borders are smugglers and criminals?
I asked for evidence of criminality from you or any of the people on SoR. Can anyone give all readers some proof of lawbreaking when John Doe posts 20 stamps from the USA to me in the UK? If there is a law prohibiting such a trade, then Philatelia, take your own advice and do something about it. You could also change the post office you use as your current postmaster seems to be enforcing the rules too anally. Do as I did, and contact your local mail provider, USPS, (in my case Royal Mail), and ask for written advice on how to act properly in this situation. In my case I am still awaiting a response, but maybe the letter got stuck in the post.
I am not having a dig at you Philatelia. I just happen to have bought or swapped stamps from multiple American vendors. None of those people even mentioned postal restrictions to me. They have simply given me what I believe is an acceptable price for posting, which I paid, and the stamps then arrived quickly andsafely, without having been opened. Yet here on SoR people are warning of imprisonment, fines, and low morals for such actions.
In Britain, we also have problems with acts of terror. Not as bad as in the USA, but still unsettling. I appreciate the need for vigilance by both our governments. I have encountered problems in American airports as a result. It won't stop me visiting USA, as so far I have holidayed in 33 states. I love your country, and love your people. Most of them simply get on with life, and they are as honest as the day is long. Please don't imply they are attempting to defraud either USPS or the US government by sending stamps to me inside a letter.
Finally, sending a small amount of stamps properly packed by letter post takes up no more width than a greetings card and can easily fit in the mouth of a post box, even if it has only half an inch opening. Of course, they should only be sent that way if they are being swapped and comply with all other regulations. LOL AWWWWWW!!!!!!!!
Then 96% of the people in SOR are scofflaws, as I said before. Enough said on the topic, let us stop this now!
It's probably good to end this thread but I thought I would share a funny (or not) story concerning post office employees not knowing the rules or in this case not much of anything. My store was located in the boonies but we had a local post office with one clerk and 2 delivery personnel. I rarely needed anything weighed and just bought stamps there. One day I did need to weigh and affix proper postage to a parcel rate package going to an SOR member from Saudi Arabia (this is 4-5 years ago). I had mailed a similar size package to him a month or two ago from the PO close to my home and it cost over $5. With this 2nd package, after bumbling around with the scale judging the size and weight the clerk asked me, "Saudi Arabia- is that out west?". After informing him it was overseas he took a full minute of being flabbergasted and came pack with $1.45 as a postage cost. I told him that probably wasn't enough and he asked me how much I thought it should be. We settled on $5 even- although he thought that was too much. That gentleman is still there and I sort of doubt he has any clue about the new UPU regulations!!
Too funny! Thanks for that!
Interesting story. With Point of Sale software, I would not have expected it would have been possible given it acts as a check. He must have just bypassed it.
The P.O. didn't (probably still doesn't) have any automated equipment- didn't even have a meter machine- he had to use real stamps to total $5. I've often wondered how that P.O. has survived some of the P.O. closings.
As a postal engineer I was responsible for maintenance and calibration of postal equipment in both Crown and sub post offices across a large area of western Scotland in the days before computers, and when Franking machines were a new phenomenon. Businesses were mechanized if they bought books of stamps from vending machines to save people queuing.
Many sub post offices were in private homes or garden sheds, and employed one person, often part time. I suspect, given the rise in emails and the corresponding drop in mail even more will now be housed in such tiny locations. Most sub postmasters received 1 week's training before qualifying, but today, most employees are unqualified, sharing their duties between Post Office and other duties.
In the UK, when most people visit a post office to post mail, they place the envelope on the scales, the postmaster or sub postmaster looks at the destination and gives the customer a price for 1, 2, or 3 options to send it. The customer chooses the option they want and pay for the stamps and the sales transaction ends there, possibly with the exchange of gossip and pleasantries.
In my own experience I pre weigh parcels before arriving at the post office and put a variety of stamps on the parcel to the correct value for whatever I am sending, fill out the customs declaration (if applicable), and ask the postmaster to check it. When they have done so, we conclude our conversation.
I assume sub postmasters the world over act in a similar manner and apply the rules to the best of their ability. I hadn't read the document anglophile linked to. Even after an hour on the UPU website I could not locate the specific paragraph. After googling his reference I did locate it, and I agree it correctly states the rules applying in the USA. In my own case I fully comply with the rules.
I may well be wrong and will willingly apologise if I am, but I doubt if sub postmasters or untrained counter staff in most post offices in the USA have knowledge of that rule and how to apply it. I also think customers believe prices quoted are correct and accept restrictions and costs they are told will apply. If they believe they are being overcharged should they attempt to educate counter staff, or should they advise your postal operator of the problem?
In the weeks leading up to Christmas I visited my local post office to send cards to Australia. I placed each card on the scales, and was quoted individual prices of £3.60. At the time I thought it was expensive but, I did as most people do, and paid up. I got home and after telling my wife, she informed me the correct price for sending each card was around £1.80, less than half what I had paid. Of course, on that occasion I did just suck it up, as most people do. I believe the person who served me made an honest mistake, and would benefit from some training which I doubt she will ever receive.
"I doubt if sub postmasters or untrained counter staff in most post offices in the USA have knowledge of that rule and how to apply it"
" I placed each card on the scales, and was quoted individual prices of £3.60"
There is a fine difference between getting away with something because the USPS, or RM, through its employees, are not fully enforcing what has to be an unpopular and complicated law and following the law. One day, unless the laws are changed, someone will get caught or some postal management official will insist that that unpopular law be followed to the letter, and as was mentioned they will seek some schmuck to be an example. Good luck for the "Everybody does it." defense. Joke: Everybody was speeding, but I was the only one pulled over.
My advice to all is to send small amounts by letter mail, and break larger amounts into small bundles, and then send them all by letter mail to save money.
As to this comment and its trailing derivative comments, SoR, it members, and management team, have a duty to insist that the laws be followed, whether they do, or not, is not their problem. Encouraging someone to break or illicitly evade the law, popular or not, is complicity, and could be considered a crime as well.
Chris posted the laws correctly and simply. I do not like them, but it is not wise to suggest in a public forum that people follow me and evade the laws.
All can do what they want to do but do not expect any sensible organization to support evading these laws..
So here is my advice, close the discussion, or any post that supports complicity to violate either nations laws and copy Michael's first warning in red, posting it prominently in several places, also in red.
Although I've been a member of Stamporama for nearly 10 years, I've been on "hiatus" for about two years and now find I'm perplexed when it comes to international mailing for large lots from the USA.
I've decided to give up selling approvals (which accounted for the bulk of my 9,000+ lots sold to date) although I experienced very few problems with these sales either domestically or internationally. However I found record-keeping and storage for multiple sellers who would buy from 5¢ to 50¢ worth of approvals and really didn't care to pay postage on lots this small.
I decided to attempt to sell larger lots of 1,000+ stamps with a minimum bid of $1.00 and a BIN of $9.00, and posted the first of these lots just yesterday (Jan. 10); the lot sold at my BIN price within hours of posting...fortunately someone with a U.S. address. Since I package these lots in multiple glassines and send in a large envelope by first-class mail, the buyer has to pay for 6oz ($1.75) plus my standard handling fee of 15¢ for a reasonable total of $1.90.
I really don't want to shut out international buyers who might be interested in these large lots; however, USPS regulations state that you can only send regular first class mail internationally if the contents have a value of $0.00. Thus the postage (before my 15¢ fee) charges which might be deemed acceptable (e.g., $3.33 to Toronto; $5.67 to Mexico; $6.97 to Germany, Australia, etc.) jump to a totally unreasonable $35.00-$45.00 or even higher when using Global Priority mail.
Although I never had a problem sending small lots of stamps in letter-sized envelopes with the SOM invoice, I suspect sending large envelopes would be problematic for both the buyer and the seller.
If such a mailing was inspected by customs or either postal service, I expect I would be subject to some kind of penalty and the buyer might have to pay duty or forfeit the shipment altogether.
I would welcome any comments or suggestions, but I think I probably must limit any future sales of large lots (which is all I expect to offer) to domestic sales only.
re: International Mailing
International mailing is so frustrating these days and prohibitively expensive.
re: International Mailing
I read your post yesterday and thought "At last. Someone taking a common sense approach to international postage". Seems my thoughts were incorrect. The subject of posting stamps across borders was aired on another SoR forum several months ago. Doomsayers were threatening to suspend international sales because of costs. While these people disentangled their underwear, most others simply went on doing what we had always done. That is, putting stamps inside envelopes, taking them to the post office and mailing them at the letter rate. Your post yesterday sensibly mentioned separating larger numbers of stamps into small amounts which could go into letter sized envelopes and posting a large consignment in more than 1 mail. While this was a little more bother for yourself and your customer, the cost savings to your customers is significant.
No Post Office anywhere in the world is about to start opening greetings cards, letters from home, or business mail to check the possible value of any illicit trade busting items. They want mail out of their system and on your doormat as soon as humanly possible. Nor are law enforcement agencies interested in letter sized envelopes, except I believe in scanning for illicit substances which is done while the envelopes are sealed.
My advice to all is to send small amounts by letter mail, and break larger amounts into small bundles, and then send them all by letter mail to save money.
re: International Mailing
Note: The "advice" given in the post above is contrary to the law, and is not supported or condoned by Stamporama.
re: International Mailing
A very wise man advised me when I was faced with a similar "suggestion":
This "suggestion" is that the seller should break the law and lie on a customs document about contents. This "suggestion" is requesting that the seller become a smuggler and a criminal. There is no risk to the buyer if this "suggestion" is followed. But the seller risks having his goods seized and being fined and possibly charged. The buyer could then claim that they never received the goods and have their payment refunded. Thus the seller would lose both the goods AND the money. But sure, why not ask the seller to do this "favor" for you.
The law is the LAW. If you don't like it, try to CHANGE it, but don't try to convince others to become liars and criminals to save YOU a few dollars.
re: International Mailing
I am a Canadian buyer and see both sides. If people are going to charge the legal amount they should probably let the buyer know in their information. That means that I would make sure that, for those people, I make sure I buy a large enough amount to make the extra charge bearable. I have got some excellent material from the people who charge the full amount and have no regrets. But would I pay the full shipping amount for a very small order? I don't think so - I would probably ask them to hold off on the invoice until I got up to at least $20 in sales, if possible. Sometimes that's hard to do since some sellers only rarely list items I want. Maybe in that case I would either pay the entire amount or maybe they would agree to cancel the sale. I know that's against your policy but I've had sellers ask me if I wanted to do just that. It is a major dilemma, do the sellers continue charging the lower amount, or not. Maybe they are afraid to increase the amount in case they lose sales? Your guess is as good as mine!
re: International Mailing
"No Post Office anywhere in the world is about to start opening greetings cards, letters from home, or business mail to check the possible value of any illicit trade busting items."
Well - my post office does. They also open and inspect "book rate" parcels and if either the buyer or seller wants those illegal goods they are welcome to them after paying full priority mail charges.
Full agreement with Michael and Philatelia here. Stealing from the post office results in higher rates for all. Just like shoplifting - it is not a victimless crime.
re: International Mailing
As I implied in my earlier post the doomsayers were getting their knickers in a twist. I worked for Royal Mail, and I have a hobby which in a very small way contributes to keeping them afloat. My post was in relation to Larryd dealing with a package of stamps worth 10 US dollars. I had read his previous post in which he volunteered to split the 1000 stamps into smaller packages to save on postage costs. I applauded his understanding of a problem which other members also understood. I questioned his willingness to jump ship at the first sign of a problem.
I at no time invited anyone to break any law or bend any rule. I made an observation about postal operators, law enforcement agencies, and revenue collectors and the methods which they actually do use. I had checked before responding and no duty is payable on items with a value below £39 (about 50 US dollars) on goods imported into the United Kingdom, which is well below Larryd's BIN price. I will wager it is also massively below the average transaction value on both this and other stamp trading sites.
Since my earlier post, I enquired from both Royal Mail and HMRC for them to be more specific on importing and exporting stamps to and from the UK. My post was simply a response to people saying there is a problem where no real problem exists. I trade stamps with other members of SoR, mostly by swapping, and neither myself or them have complained to each other, or on this forum, about high postage costs. In every case we have used letter post rather than parcel post and I was simply stating that in almost every case it will be less expensive than using parcel post.
I firmly believe most members here ignore the prophets of doom and simply deal with postage in the most efficient and easy way, in the full knowledge that the packet of stamps they are posting are fully legal and will be treated no differently from the millions of other postal items handled daily.
re: International Mailing
We are talking about two different things - import tariffs and postage fees due to postal regulations . Of course these packets can be imported into the UK and other countries without tariffs because of their low value.
BUT If you state ANY value on the customs document, you can NOT post the item using regular postage fees - they MUST be sent parcel post. Those are the international UPU regulations. First class international mail is for documents ONLY - no goods with value.
Also - sending stamps for trades is different than shipping them as a seller. A trade does not cause money to change hands - it's not a business transaction.
re: International Mailing
Listen - sending a few stamps in a one or two ounce envelope is one thing, but trying to mail large quantities of stamps and attempting to camouflage them as a "document" just won't work.
I ran into this first hand several times with my local post office and did the research to see if there was any workaround.
I don't think it is wise to mislead people into thinking what they are doing is all sunshine and rainbows. I think people need to know what the rules and regulations state. If they then choose to violate those rules knowingly that's their decision. Ignorance of the law is never a valid excuse.
First-Class Mail® International Letter**
Max. length 11-1/2", height 6-1/8" or thickness 1/4"
Value of contents can not exceed $0.00
S
And - hey - I didn't write these crappy rules - just sharing what I learned.
re: International Mailing
Also - the United States Postal Service may be much less lenient than the Royal Mail. Everything I’ve written is based on the United States Postal Service rules and practices.
re: International Mailing
I'd like to thank those that contributed both answers and opinions to my query. I went back and found some prior discussions of the subject which had taken place during my inactivity on this site which were also very informative.
As a result, when I post a new large lot in a few days I'll be updating my terms to indicate that sales to addresses other than USA, APO, FPO and DPO will incur postal charges at International, First-Class Package rates. The rates that I have searched seem to fall between $10.50 and $14.25 which, in my opinion, is too much to pay for stamps valued somewhere between $1.00 and $9.00, but I'd rather offer this option than arbitrarily shut out our international SOM members from being able to bid if they wish.
I have one other question...one that will probably sound pretty stupid, but at this point I'm not about to assume ANYTHING. Is there any reason that I would be prohibited from using the same large envelopes that I use for mailing these lots to US addresses for foreign addresses too and simply calling the mailing a First Class Package rather than a First Class Letter?
re: International Mailing
I recently posted 2 parcels to USA. First one was a gift of covers to an SoR member. I took it to my local post office, filled in a customs declaration form, and I asked for the cheapest means of posting. I was given the seamail price at around £3.00, which I accepted as the items were a gift (I am a real cheapskate). 4 days later I received an email thanking me for sending them so promptly. Make of that what you will, but I suspect Royal Mail golfer and sent the parcel by air.
Before Christmas, I posted around 1000 stamps to another SoR member at no cost to him. Again, the correct procedure was followed, I filled in customs declaration saying these SoN stamps were of no value (which was true) and posted them at letter rate. Again the cost was around £3.00. I received a lovely email thanking me for safe arrival on January 6. On both occasions I correctly followed procedure and did nothing illegal or devious.
If members follow the rules and are sending a few stamps worth little or no value, in a letter, similar to most SoR transactions, you will not be behaving improperly and are extremely unlikely to get into trouble. Most sane people know that, and, like me, continue to send stamps by post while properly obeying rules in the United Kingdom, which by implication, apply to all UPU member countries.
Finally, in answer to larryd's query about letter posting internationally, fill out the customs declaration with the correct value for the goods, and send them at letter rate. I think that is how I would handle it. Of course, I am glad to say my local postal workers have not yet begun interrogating me about the contents, not do they open philatelic mail.
re: International Mailing
I've been trying to figure out whether I should mention this or not, but here goes! I buy a fair bit from SOR and decided it would be interesting to go through my invoices. Now I realize some were from overseas and some were from Canada but the majority were from The US. Out of about 93 invoices there were 2 where the shipping cost reflected the rate we are discussing. I would say at least 50 had to be US which means that only 4% reflected the fact that the law is being followed. Would anyone like to comment on this?
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If you are saying that 96% are openly violating the law "just a little bit" think about this for a minute. Let's say your son or daughter is in their last semester in college and cheats "just a little bit" and the professor kicks them out of class. They now have to put things on hold to make up that class and you are stuck with the bill and they are perhaps stuck explaining to an interested employer that they have to make up a class over the summer.
You have a chat with them and their defense is "But dad (or mom) - you talk about how you save a couple of bucks on postage by not classifying your mailings correctly - what's the difference?" Go ahead - answer them.
Sound far fetched - you would be surprised. I have kicked graduating seniors out of my college classes for cheating (and for plagiarism). I don't care who their parents are and I don't care what "plans" it screws up. I make the consequences clear at the start of class, in my syllabus, and throughout the semester.
This comment is limited to the question asked. I have totally given up trying to convince anyone that they should follow the law - totally and completely given up.
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Carol, too many people either do not understand or ignore what intentionally underpaying or not paying for a service really is.
re: International Mailing
'
I will admit to more than a little sympathy for folks who are having a hard time accepting the new if-it-is-worth-anything-it-goes-as-a-parcel rule; I am one of them.
Not long ago, I sent a few near-zero-value covers (recent CVP) to one of our forum brothers. It was a domestic shipment, so all I needed to do was pay the rate for a coupla-ounce flat.
Instead, I pulled an old 1-cm-thick science journal out of the recycling bin, hacked-out a 'secret compartment' of the sort you would use to smuggle drugs or weapons, inserted the covers, and sent the journal by media mail.
Dumb joke, but it gave me a laugh as I prepared the shipment and, later, the recipient told me that it had given him a laugh when he opened the shipment, so the fact that it probably cost more (in both postage & carbon footprint) to send the journal than it would to send a flat was money well spent.
Less funny was that I recently offered two old niche philatelic journals as a giveaway, and the best-qualified recipient was somewhere up in Canada. FIFTEEN DOLLARS !@#$%!
Color me annoyed, but I've written it off as the cost of being Mr Nice Guy - the shipping is now the gift, more than the contents - and will continue to sprinkle my gifts wherever they need to go, regardless of the postage.
After all, the postal system has been one of the great bargains of my life, so if I'm getting shafted these days, now & again, it still works out to being one of the great bargains of my life.
Next up: an auction catalog that will be off to Australia. Ouch!
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
re: International Mailing
The issue is the UPU and USPS rules imposed on the users of the service. If you mailed something to someone on a border town and they hand carried it across, the UPU/USPS rules do not apply. In this case, typical custom laws apply.
re: International Mailing
I wonder if those guys who threw the tea into Boston harbour worried too much about the rules;-) If I have the history wrong please correct me as I'm not American.
re: International Mailing
Those who threw the Tea Party did so because they were being taxed without representation (we were a colony of England).
Today we vote every two years and have representation. We can pretty much vote for higher or lower taxes.
We (the US and a few other countries) said we were going to pull out of the UPU and forced them to come up with a plan that will eventually even things out. The high rates we in the US are paying now is because other countries felt we were not paying our share (a portion of the rate goes to the country that has to deliver our mail).
This was, in effect, similar to another Tea Party.
All of this is nothing new - it has been repeated ad nauseum in numerous threads on all the major stamp boards including this one for well over a year.
re: International Mailing
Definitely a cultural gap here.
In the USA, the Feds have made penalties for disregarding Governmental rules very stiff. Many violations are punishable by heavy fines AND jail time. A lot of this goes back to prohibition era laws that the Federal government used to put people like Capone behind bars. Compare that to countries like Italy where you get a slap on your wrist for not paying taxes.
Kinda reminds me of that line from the pirate movie - in some countries folks view regulations this way “they aren’t so much rules as guidelines”.
re: International Mailing
"Definitely a cultural gap here. "
There surely is. When was anyone ever heavily fined, or thrown in jail for sending 10 dollars worth of stamps internationally by letter post to a stamp collector? I may disagree with some statements made by people posting here, but on this I am working very hard to keep my face straight.
When I initially posted that most people simply post items at letter rate because the value is below that at which duty is levied I was speaking from experience. I have not yet received stamps from the USA which have had a customs declaration form attached. But then, I have not yet spent more than £39 on a single transaction, the level below which duty is applied to goods entering Great Britain. When posting stamps to the USA from GB, I always fill in a CDF when sending sold stamps, or write on the envelope or parcel "Philatelic Items" when sending stamps at no cost to the recipient.
My experience of postal matters comes from 30 months working as a postal engineer with Royal Mail, the oldest postal service in the world, and 10 years working with Neopost as a salesman and manager, plus a lifetime of sending and receiving mail. To date I have never had any undue interference from either tax or law enforcement bodies in relation to postal matters. I spoke from experience when stating postal bodies are only interested in getting mail off their premises and into customers hands. Law enforcement are only interested in catching criminals, and someone who sends a few stamps at a reduced rate will not be on their radar. I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I suspect those who send goods to me aren't either.
Has any member encountered a problem yet? If so let's hear about it. I can just imagine what would happen here if someone was arrested and thrown in jail, or even heavily fined for sending stamps in a letter envelope rather than a parcel, or misdeclaring or, worse still, failing to declare 10 dollars worth of stamps. I suspect even the conservative American people would not accept that pill without a battle. Governments have bigger fish to fry than biting a hand which supports their postal service.
re: International Mailing
LoL awww Gudgie - no that’s not what I meant. The point I was trying to make is that folks here tend to be very hesitant to mess with federal regulations because those policing can and will make an example out of some poor dumb schmuck if they want to. Nobody wants to BE the dumb schmuck!
Recently there have been crackdowns on several fronts. One of the most annoying to me is that I can no longer apply a bunch of stamps to a little packet and leave it in my mailbox. I have to physically hand it to a clerk. Supposedly that is an anti terrorism policy.
And they are opening mail with lots of stamps on the envelope - I’ve had a few inspected. Why - who knows. Checking for anthrax spores? Sheesh! Someone somewhere determined that terrorists use stamps or some such ballyhoo.
I’ve had mail returned for a lack of a customs form. For years I sent small trades - maybe 200 stamps - to friends in Canada and Europe without needing the forms. Now you have to put them on there or you get them back.
And I’ve been through that “must send parcel rate” with the clerks. That meant either pay through the nose or take it home and repackage it.
So you have the ethical imperative - ie it’s the law and it’s right to pay your fair share - plus you have to weigh which is the greater PITA - paying now or getting caught and paying much more later.
So maybe now you can better understand why some people here in the USA are sticklers about following the rules.
re: International Mailing
Our postmaster is the same with anything to a foreign destination. And if you attach a customs form and use stamps it is required that it be handed to a window clerk which on a busy day can take 15 to 20 minutes. Try to circumvent it and the envelope is delivered back to your house the next day.
They check a high percentage of media mail outbound and inbound. A 25 pound package sent from my house to California costs $15 media mail, $76 2 day priority, and $168 next day. If there are items in the box that are not media you will have to pay the high rate to get the box - if you refuse the sender can have their goods back by paying the high rate, otherwise I presume it is destroyed.
re: International Mailing
I have shipped Scott catalogs by media mail in the past but supposedly told that since they contain advertising they do not qualify as media mail. If there is a heavy package (heavier than some standard book size) presented as media mail, I suspect it is more likely not. One could argue media mail should not even get a special rate. You don't with UPS or FedEx.
re: International Mailing
"... One could argue media mail should not even get a special rate. You don't with UPS or FedEx ..."
re: International Mailing
The public good argument may not stand the test of time especially since printed media is less important to society as evidenced by decline in printed publications. It was public policy by a government associated group in different times. When new competitors arrived they were not forced to follow the same policy.
re: International Mailing
and, no, Scott's catalogues would not be eligible for media mail because of the advertising content.
re: International Mailing
"... The public good argument may not stand the test of time ..."
re: International Mailing
Philatelia, you say you were taken out of context. Were you also taken out of context when, in an earlier post, you said people who send small quantities of stamps over borders are smugglers and criminals?
I asked for evidence of criminality from you or any of the people on SoR. Can anyone give all readers some proof of lawbreaking when John Doe posts 20 stamps from the USA to me in the UK? If there is a law prohibiting such a trade, then Philatelia, take your own advice and do something about it. You could also change the post office you use as your current postmaster seems to be enforcing the rules too anally. Do as I did, and contact your local mail provider, USPS, (in my case Royal Mail), and ask for written advice on how to act properly in this situation. In my case I am still awaiting a response, but maybe the letter got stuck in the post.
I am not having a dig at you Philatelia. I just happen to have bought or swapped stamps from multiple American vendors. None of those people even mentioned postal restrictions to me. They have simply given me what I believe is an acceptable price for posting, which I paid, and the stamps then arrived quickly andsafely, without having been opened. Yet here on SoR people are warning of imprisonment, fines, and low morals for such actions.
In Britain, we also have problems with acts of terror. Not as bad as in the USA, but still unsettling. I appreciate the need for vigilance by both our governments. I have encountered problems in American airports as a result. It won't stop me visiting USA, as so far I have holidayed in 33 states. I love your country, and love your people. Most of them simply get on with life, and they are as honest as the day is long. Please don't imply they are attempting to defraud either USPS or the US government by sending stamps to me inside a letter.
Finally, sending a small amount of stamps properly packed by letter post takes up no more width than a greetings card and can easily fit in the mouth of a post box, even if it has only half an inch opening. Of course, they should only be sent that way if they are being swapped and comply with all other regulations. LOL AWWWWWW!!!!!!!!
re: International Mailing
Then 96% of the people in SOR are scofflaws, as I said before. Enough said on the topic, let us stop this now!
re: International Mailing
It's probably good to end this thread but I thought I would share a funny (or not) story concerning post office employees not knowing the rules or in this case not much of anything. My store was located in the boonies but we had a local post office with one clerk and 2 delivery personnel. I rarely needed anything weighed and just bought stamps there. One day I did need to weigh and affix proper postage to a parcel rate package going to an SOR member from Saudi Arabia (this is 4-5 years ago). I had mailed a similar size package to him a month or two ago from the PO close to my home and it cost over $5. With this 2nd package, after bumbling around with the scale judging the size and weight the clerk asked me, "Saudi Arabia- is that out west?". After informing him it was overseas he took a full minute of being flabbergasted and came pack with $1.45 as a postage cost. I told him that probably wasn't enough and he asked me how much I thought it should be. We settled on $5 even- although he thought that was too much. That gentleman is still there and I sort of doubt he has any clue about the new UPU regulations!!
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Too funny! Thanks for that!
re: International Mailing
Interesting story. With Point of Sale software, I would not have expected it would have been possible given it acts as a check. He must have just bypassed it.
re: International Mailing
The P.O. didn't (probably still doesn't) have any automated equipment- didn't even have a meter machine- he had to use real stamps to total $5. I've often wondered how that P.O. has survived some of the P.O. closings.
re: International Mailing
As a postal engineer I was responsible for maintenance and calibration of postal equipment in both Crown and sub post offices across a large area of western Scotland in the days before computers, and when Franking machines were a new phenomenon. Businesses were mechanized if they bought books of stamps from vending machines to save people queuing.
Many sub post offices were in private homes or garden sheds, and employed one person, often part time. I suspect, given the rise in emails and the corresponding drop in mail even more will now be housed in such tiny locations. Most sub postmasters received 1 week's training before qualifying, but today, most employees are unqualified, sharing their duties between Post Office and other duties.
In the UK, when most people visit a post office to post mail, they place the envelope on the scales, the postmaster or sub postmaster looks at the destination and gives the customer a price for 1, 2, or 3 options to send it. The customer chooses the option they want and pay for the stamps and the sales transaction ends there, possibly with the exchange of gossip and pleasantries.
In my own experience I pre weigh parcels before arriving at the post office and put a variety of stamps on the parcel to the correct value for whatever I am sending, fill out the customs declaration (if applicable), and ask the postmaster to check it. When they have done so, we conclude our conversation.
I assume sub postmasters the world over act in a similar manner and apply the rules to the best of their ability. I hadn't read the document anglophile linked to. Even after an hour on the UPU website I could not locate the specific paragraph. After googling his reference I did locate it, and I agree it correctly states the rules applying in the USA. In my own case I fully comply with the rules.
I may well be wrong and will willingly apologise if I am, but I doubt if sub postmasters or untrained counter staff in most post offices in the USA have knowledge of that rule and how to apply it. I also think customers believe prices quoted are correct and accept restrictions and costs they are told will apply. If they believe they are being overcharged should they attempt to educate counter staff, or should they advise your postal operator of the problem?
In the weeks leading up to Christmas I visited my local post office to send cards to Australia. I placed each card on the scales, and was quoted individual prices of £3.60. At the time I thought it was expensive but, I did as most people do, and paid up. I got home and after telling my wife, she informed me the correct price for sending each card was around £1.80, less than half what I had paid. Of course, on that occasion I did just suck it up, as most people do. I believe the person who served me made an honest mistake, and would benefit from some training which I doubt she will ever receive.
re: International Mailing
"I doubt if sub postmasters or untrained counter staff in most post offices in the USA have knowledge of that rule and how to apply it"
re: International Mailing
" I placed each card on the scales, and was quoted individual prices of £3.60"
re: International Mailing
There is a fine difference between getting away with something because the USPS, or RM, through its employees, are not fully enforcing what has to be an unpopular and complicated law and following the law. One day, unless the laws are changed, someone will get caught or some postal management official will insist that that unpopular law be followed to the letter, and as was mentioned they will seek some schmuck to be an example. Good luck for the "Everybody does it." defense. Joke: Everybody was speeding, but I was the only one pulled over.
My advice to all is to send small amounts by letter mail, and break larger amounts into small bundles, and then send them all by letter mail to save money.
As to this comment and its trailing derivative comments, SoR, it members, and management team, have a duty to insist that the laws be followed, whether they do, or not, is not their problem. Encouraging someone to break or illicitly evade the law, popular or not, is complicity, and could be considered a crime as well.
Chris posted the laws correctly and simply. I do not like them, but it is not wise to suggest in a public forum that people follow me and evade the laws.
All can do what they want to do but do not expect any sensible organization to support evading these laws..
So here is my advice, close the discussion, or any post that supports complicity to violate either nations laws and copy Michael's first warning in red, posting it prominently in several places, also in red.