Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
I was bored, had nothing to do, had to stay inside because we have a lockdown.
So here is another story..........
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A voting area is a part of the country in which the population - e.g. B. after the end of a war - can explain to which of the elected states it would like to belong.
An example are the border areas of the German Reich and German Austria, in 1920/1921 - based on the principle of the right of self-determination of the peoples and on the basis of the provisions of the Versailles Treaty and the peace treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye - referendums on their further national affiliation took place.
Voting areas were then:
1) North Schleswig,
Nordschleswig voted for Denmark with a three-quarter majority; the southern part of the Schleswig voting area remained with a majority of 80 percent in Germany
2) Eupen-Malmedy,
Eupen-Malmedy and the previous neutral Moresnet to Belgium; originally without a vote, a later vote confirmed that it belonged to Belgium. Whether the vote was correct or not was opposed by both sides. The ceded area included both communities with French-speaking (Malmedy, Weismes) and German-speaking groups (Eupen, Sankt Vith and others). The latter today form the German-speaking community of Belgium.
3) Allenstein,
At the referendum in the East Prussian voting district Allenstein on July 11, 1920, the state affiliation of southern East Prussia (Masuria) and West Prussia was voted. Over 97% of the voters decided to stay with East Prussia in the German Reich and against an assignment to Poland.
4) Marienwerder
In the referendum in West Prussia in several districts east of the Vistula in the former administrative district of Marienwerder, over 92% of the voters were in favor of staying with East Prussia and thus with the German Reich, and against an assignment to the Second Polish Republic. These results were also remarkable in that a significant part of the population in the voting areas was native Polish.
5) Upper Silesia
During the referendum on March 20, 1921, Upper Silesia was occupied by Allied troops so that German authorities could not put pressure on the Polish option. 60 percent of those entitled to vote voted to remain with the German Reich. After a violent Polish uprising failed due to the resistance of German Free Corps, the Allied Supreme Council decided in October 1921 to divide the voting area, a possibility that the Versailles Treaty explicitly provided for. Thus, on June 20, 1922, an area of about a third of the area in Eastern Upper Silesia, where there had been a majority vote for Poland, came to Poland. So far, almost a quarter of German hard coal has been mined in the ceded part. The separation embittered many Germans because the division was only decided after the vote and the greater part of the industrially valuable Upper Silesian industrial area went to Poland. Due to the spatial heterogeneity of the majority of votes, several places fell to Poland contrary to the respective majority of votes. The resentment was also fueled by the artificiality of drawing boundaries in this metropolitan area, partly through industrial plants and mines.
6) Saar area
The Saar region, whose coal production (see mining in Saarland) fell to France, was placed under the League of Nations. After 15 years, a vote on state affiliation was to take place, which on January 13, 1935 resulted in a large majority for Germany.
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North Schleswig
In accordance with the provisions of the Versailles Treaty, a referendum was held in North Schleswig under the supervision of a duck occupation and an inter-allied commission, with which the population itself should decide whether it belonged to the German Reich or Denmark.
From 26.1.1920 to 16.6.1920 an inter-allied commission based in Flensburg took over the government. In this way, an independent interim state emerged only for the purpose of realizing the plebiscite.
The first zone was elected on February 10, 1920, with the majority opting to join Denmark. In the 2nd zone, this resident chose to remain in the German Reich on March 14, 1920.
The stamps issued during the occupation were printed in Copenhagen; the stamps for the Commission's official mail were printed with C.I.S.
Currency:
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
From 20.5.1920 in the 1st zone 1 crown (Danish) = 100 ore
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Eupen-Malmedy
On January 15, 1920 the post of this area was transferred to Belgium.
Until January 27, 1920, German brands could still be used alone or in conjunction with the Belgian stamps.
Currency:
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
From 27.1.1920 1 franc (Fr) = 100 centimes (C)
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Allenstein
The Allenstein voting area encompassed the southern districts of East Prussia (Warmia-Masuria). The inter-allied commission arrived there on February 14, 1920 and took over the supervision. Postage stamps were also introduced to document independence, and from April 3, 1920, the stamps of the German Reich lost their franking validity. Up to this point, they had to be used and are therefore with stamp dates from 14.2. until 2.4. to be regarded as a forerunner.
The referendum took place on July 11, 1920, almost 98% of the population voted to remain in the German Reich. On August 12, 1920, the voting commission withdrew again.
After World War II, the area was placed under Polish administration as a result of the Potsdam Agreement.
Forerunners and followers: (DR Germania and representative representations):
Forerunners 14.2.1920 - 2.4.1920
Followers 3.4.1920 - 12.8.1920 (due to lack of brand)
currency
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
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Marienwerder
The voting area Marienwerder was in southern West Prussia east of the Vistula. On February 17th, 1920 the inter-allied voting commission arrived and took control. As a sign of independence, it was decided to introduce own stamps for the area, according to § 1 of the order no German postage stamps were allowed to be used after March 12, 1920.
Up to this point, the German brands had to continue to be used and are therefore with stamp dates from 17.2. 1920 to 12.3.1920 to be regarded as a forerunner. Due to a lack of stamps as a result of poor dispositions and theft during the transport of the branded items from Italy, German stamps that were present at the post offices had to be used several times after March 12th (followers).
The referendum took place on July 11, 1920, about 92% of the population voted to remain with the German Reich. On August 16, 1920, the voting commission withdrew, post-sovereignty returned to the German Reichspost.
After the Second World War, the area was placed under Polish administration as a result of the Potsdam Agreement.
Forerunners and followers:
Completely 17th January 1920 - 12th March 1920
Followers 12.3.1920 - 14.9. 1920
currency
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
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Upper Silesia
The Versailles Peace Treaty initially provided that all of Upper Silesia (with the exception of some areas in the west) should be ceded to Poland. This postulate was tempered by opposition from the German and also from the English side, in that Article 88 provided for a referendum in which the people of Upper Silesia should decide whether they belonged to Germany or Poland.
From February 12, 1920 to June 14, 1922, an allied government and plebiscite commission took power in Upper Silesia for the purpose of realizing this plebiscite.
Own postage stamps were also introduced to document independence. The stamps of the German Empire lost their validity when the Allies came to power. However, the new stamps were only available at the post office counters on February 20, 1920, 7 days late. Until then, the stamps of the German Reich had to be used. The stamps of the German Reich used during this period are therefore to be seen as the forerunners of the Upper Silesia region of voting. The marks of the Upper Silesia voting area used beyond June 14, 1922 (or the gradual handover of the parts of the country to Poland or the German Reich) are to be regarded as re-uses.
currency
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
Eastern Upper Silesia (the so-called insurgent stamps)
As a result of the uprisings in Upper Silesia, in which numerous Polish insurgents from Wojciech Korfanty's troops participated, who "were not native to Silesia", the occupation of the part of Upper Silesia, which Korfantys intended to be ceded to Poland, began. Even a large number of Polish pastors came to Upper Silesia from other countries, including America, to agitate against Germany. Pastor Josef Kubis sent a petition to the Cardinal and the Prince-Bishops' Curia in Wroclaw and asked for help because of the attacks by the foreign clergy.
currency
1 marka (M) = 100 Fenigów
Field Post of the Insurgents (Green Post)
Regular edition (of the Polish Ministry of Post and Telegraphy)
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Saar area
Area on the southwestern border of Germany, which included the southern part of the then Prussian Rhine Province and the western part of the Bavarian Palatinate.
Shortly before the end of the First World War, the area on the Middle Saar was occupied by French. Troops occupied. Articles 45-50 of the Saar Statute were laid down in the Versailles Peace Treaty (signed on June 28, 1919, ratified on January 16, 1919 and entered into force on January 14, 1920). The southern parts of the Prussian Rhine Province (1465 km2) and the western parts of the Bavarian. Palatinate (416 km2) were subordinated to third parties and transferred to the League of Nations as trustees for 15 years. Afterwards, a referendum was held on the national affiliation of this area, which was newly created under the name "Bassin de la Sane" (Saar Basin).
In the government commission appointed by the League of Nations, which operates under the French. Chairman V. Rault on February 25, 1920 in Saarbrücken and who had an advisory council, the French influence prevailed. The ownership of the 66 coal mines and their sole exploitation passed to France. From the end of April 1920, the currency changeover to French gradually took place. Franc, from 1 June the miners received their wages in Francs, from 1.12. then the ironworkers. Post and railways, administrations and other economic sectors followed little by little. On June 1, 1923, the French. Franc declared the sole means of payment. In 1925 the Saar region was included in the French customs territory.
After the attempt in 1926 to find a Franco-German solution, which included an early return of the Saar region to the German Reich, failed due to domestic and foreign policy opposition, the referendum took place on January 13, 1935. 8.8% voted for the status quo, 0.4% for a union with France and 90.8% for re-integration into Germany.
On the basis of this result of the vote, the entire Saar region was returned to Germany on March 1, 1935 and placed under the supervision of a Reich commissioner as Saar Land.
The franc was exchanged: 1 Fr = 0.1645 Reichsmark.
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Saar area continued.......
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Saar area continued.......
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Hi HockeyNut
I have not seen these stamps (issue under French administration in Upper Silesia - Mi # 1-17) in your collection.
The stamps are hinged and are not expertized by the expert.
What do you think? Genuines or forgeries?
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Hello Gerom,
I do not own that set Gerom. Did you see the prices?????
They go from 800 Euros up to 4000 Euros a piece.
I can tell you for 99 percent sure that that set is fake, especially if it doesn't include certificates.
Even signs of "Haertel", "Müller" and "Richter" on the back of the stamps are mostly countfeits.
And if you come across the 3 Mark and 5 Mark stamps : they are ALWAYS counterfeit.
There are already 30 different counterfeits of these hand stamp overprints.
These are usually offered as a complete set (of 30 stamps)
The real ones have a Catalog value of about 32000 Euros for HINGED (!!!) ( 38500 US$ )
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P.S.
For those who do not know the abbrevation C.I.H.S.
It is a French abbreviation for: Commission Interalliée Haute Silésie (Inter-allied Commission for Upper Silesia).
And here are the Michel numbers 19-22 :
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SOME FAKES (From eBAY)
The 80pf has a Bremen cancel that is dated 1913.
Bremen is not part of Upper Silesia and above all the stamps were issued in 1920 !!!!!!!!!!
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Gerom,
Found this on another forum :
HOPE THIS HELPS.......
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Excellent information.
As you anticipated, I also think they are fakes.
I dreamed beautifully for a few hours.
The auction started at 2 Euros and has now reached 35. (not thousands of Euros)
Thank you HockeyNut.
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Well folks,
I was bored, had nothing to do, had to stay inside because we have a lockdown.
So here is another story..........
Login to Like
this post
re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
A voting area is a part of the country in which the population - e.g. B. after the end of a war - can explain to which of the elected states it would like to belong.
An example are the border areas of the German Reich and German Austria, in 1920/1921 - based on the principle of the right of self-determination of the peoples and on the basis of the provisions of the Versailles Treaty and the peace treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye - referendums on their further national affiliation took place.
Voting areas were then:
1) North Schleswig,
Nordschleswig voted for Denmark with a three-quarter majority; the southern part of the Schleswig voting area remained with a majority of 80 percent in Germany
2) Eupen-Malmedy,
Eupen-Malmedy and the previous neutral Moresnet to Belgium; originally without a vote, a later vote confirmed that it belonged to Belgium. Whether the vote was correct or not was opposed by both sides. The ceded area included both communities with French-speaking (Malmedy, Weismes) and German-speaking groups (Eupen, Sankt Vith and others). The latter today form the German-speaking community of Belgium.
3) Allenstein,
At the referendum in the East Prussian voting district Allenstein on July 11, 1920, the state affiliation of southern East Prussia (Masuria) and West Prussia was voted. Over 97% of the voters decided to stay with East Prussia in the German Reich and against an assignment to Poland.
4) Marienwerder
In the referendum in West Prussia in several districts east of the Vistula in the former administrative district of Marienwerder, over 92% of the voters were in favor of staying with East Prussia and thus with the German Reich, and against an assignment to the Second Polish Republic. These results were also remarkable in that a significant part of the population in the voting areas was native Polish.
5) Upper Silesia
During the referendum on March 20, 1921, Upper Silesia was occupied by Allied troops so that German authorities could not put pressure on the Polish option. 60 percent of those entitled to vote voted to remain with the German Reich. After a violent Polish uprising failed due to the resistance of German Free Corps, the Allied Supreme Council decided in October 1921 to divide the voting area, a possibility that the Versailles Treaty explicitly provided for. Thus, on June 20, 1922, an area of about a third of the area in Eastern Upper Silesia, where there had been a majority vote for Poland, came to Poland. So far, almost a quarter of German hard coal has been mined in the ceded part. The separation embittered many Germans because the division was only decided after the vote and the greater part of the industrially valuable Upper Silesian industrial area went to Poland. Due to the spatial heterogeneity of the majority of votes, several places fell to Poland contrary to the respective majority of votes. The resentment was also fueled by the artificiality of drawing boundaries in this metropolitan area, partly through industrial plants and mines.
6) Saar area
The Saar region, whose coal production (see mining in Saarland) fell to France, was placed under the League of Nations. After 15 years, a vote on state affiliation was to take place, which on January 13, 1935 resulted in a large majority for Germany.
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
North Schleswig
In accordance with the provisions of the Versailles Treaty, a referendum was held in North Schleswig under the supervision of a duck occupation and an inter-allied commission, with which the population itself should decide whether it belonged to the German Reich or Denmark.
From 26.1.1920 to 16.6.1920 an inter-allied commission based in Flensburg took over the government. In this way, an independent interim state emerged only for the purpose of realizing the plebiscite.
The first zone was elected on February 10, 1920, with the majority opting to join Denmark. In the 2nd zone, this resident chose to remain in the German Reich on March 14, 1920.
The stamps issued during the occupation were printed in Copenhagen; the stamps for the Commission's official mail were printed with C.I.S.
Currency:
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
From 20.5.1920 in the 1st zone 1 crown (Danish) = 100 ore
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Eupen-Malmedy
On January 15, 1920 the post of this area was transferred to Belgium.
Until January 27, 1920, German brands could still be used alone or in conjunction with the Belgian stamps.
Currency:
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
From 27.1.1920 1 franc (Fr) = 100 centimes (C)
Login to Like
this post
re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Allenstein
The Allenstein voting area encompassed the southern districts of East Prussia (Warmia-Masuria). The inter-allied commission arrived there on February 14, 1920 and took over the supervision. Postage stamps were also introduced to document independence, and from April 3, 1920, the stamps of the German Reich lost their franking validity. Up to this point, they had to be used and are therefore with stamp dates from 14.2. until 2.4. to be regarded as a forerunner.
The referendum took place on July 11, 1920, almost 98% of the population voted to remain in the German Reich. On August 12, 1920, the voting commission withdrew again.
After World War II, the area was placed under Polish administration as a result of the Potsdam Agreement.
Forerunners and followers: (DR Germania and representative representations):
Forerunners 14.2.1920 - 2.4.1920
Followers 3.4.1920 - 12.8.1920 (due to lack of brand)
currency
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
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likes this post.
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Marienwerder
The voting area Marienwerder was in southern West Prussia east of the Vistula. On February 17th, 1920 the inter-allied voting commission arrived and took control. As a sign of independence, it was decided to introduce own stamps for the area, according to § 1 of the order no German postage stamps were allowed to be used after March 12, 1920.
Up to this point, the German brands had to continue to be used and are therefore with stamp dates from 17.2. 1920 to 12.3.1920 to be regarded as a forerunner. Due to a lack of stamps as a result of poor dispositions and theft during the transport of the branded items from Italy, German stamps that were present at the post offices had to be used several times after March 12th (followers).
The referendum took place on July 11, 1920, about 92% of the population voted to remain with the German Reich. On August 16, 1920, the voting commission withdrew, post-sovereignty returned to the German Reichspost.
After the Second World War, the area was placed under Polish administration as a result of the Potsdam Agreement.
Forerunners and followers:
Completely 17th January 1920 - 12th March 1920
Followers 12.3.1920 - 14.9. 1920
currency
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Upper Silesia
The Versailles Peace Treaty initially provided that all of Upper Silesia (with the exception of some areas in the west) should be ceded to Poland. This postulate was tempered by opposition from the German and also from the English side, in that Article 88 provided for a referendum in which the people of Upper Silesia should decide whether they belonged to Germany or Poland.
From February 12, 1920 to June 14, 1922, an allied government and plebiscite commission took power in Upper Silesia for the purpose of realizing this plebiscite.
Own postage stamps were also introduced to document independence. The stamps of the German Empire lost their validity when the Allies came to power. However, the new stamps were only available at the post office counters on February 20, 1920, 7 days late. Until then, the stamps of the German Reich had to be used. The stamps of the German Reich used during this period are therefore to be seen as the forerunners of the Upper Silesia region of voting. The marks of the Upper Silesia voting area used beyond June 14, 1922 (or the gradual handover of the parts of the country to Poland or the German Reich) are to be regarded as re-uses.
currency
1 mark (M) = 100 pfennig (Pf)
Eastern Upper Silesia (the so-called insurgent stamps)
As a result of the uprisings in Upper Silesia, in which numerous Polish insurgents from Wojciech Korfanty's troops participated, who "were not native to Silesia", the occupation of the part of Upper Silesia, which Korfantys intended to be ceded to Poland, began. Even a large number of Polish pastors came to Upper Silesia from other countries, including America, to agitate against Germany. Pastor Josef Kubis sent a petition to the Cardinal and the Prince-Bishops' Curia in Wroclaw and asked for help because of the attacks by the foreign clergy.
currency
1 marka (M) = 100 Fenigów
Field Post of the Insurgents (Green Post)
Regular edition (of the Polish Ministry of Post and Telegraphy)
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Saar area
Area on the southwestern border of Germany, which included the southern part of the then Prussian Rhine Province and the western part of the Bavarian Palatinate.
Shortly before the end of the First World War, the area on the Middle Saar was occupied by French. Troops occupied. Articles 45-50 of the Saar Statute were laid down in the Versailles Peace Treaty (signed on June 28, 1919, ratified on January 16, 1919 and entered into force on January 14, 1920). The southern parts of the Prussian Rhine Province (1465 km2) and the western parts of the Bavarian. Palatinate (416 km2) were subordinated to third parties and transferred to the League of Nations as trustees for 15 years. Afterwards, a referendum was held on the national affiliation of this area, which was newly created under the name "Bassin de la Sane" (Saar Basin).
In the government commission appointed by the League of Nations, which operates under the French. Chairman V. Rault on February 25, 1920 in Saarbrücken and who had an advisory council, the French influence prevailed. The ownership of the 66 coal mines and their sole exploitation passed to France. From the end of April 1920, the currency changeover to French gradually took place. Franc, from 1 June the miners received their wages in Francs, from 1.12. then the ironworkers. Post and railways, administrations and other economic sectors followed little by little. On June 1, 1923, the French. Franc declared the sole means of payment. In 1925 the Saar region was included in the French customs territory.
After the attempt in 1926 to find a Franco-German solution, which included an early return of the Saar region to the German Reich, failed due to domestic and foreign policy opposition, the referendum took place on January 13, 1935. 8.8% voted for the status quo, 0.4% for a union with France and 90.8% for re-integration into Germany.
On the basis of this result of the vote, the entire Saar region was returned to Germany on March 1, 1935 and placed under the supervision of a Reich commissioner as Saar Land.
The franc was exchanged: 1 Fr = 0.1645 Reichsmark.
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Saar area continued.......
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Saar area continued.......
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05:13:52am
re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Hi HockeyNut
I have not seen these stamps (issue under French administration in Upper Silesia - Mi # 1-17) in your collection.
The stamps are hinged and are not expertized by the expert.
What do you think? Genuines or forgeries?
Login to Like
this post
re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Hello Gerom,
I do not own that set Gerom. Did you see the prices?????
They go from 800 Euros up to 4000 Euros a piece.
I can tell you for 99 percent sure that that set is fake, especially if it doesn't include certificates.
Even signs of "Haertel", "Müller" and "Richter" on the back of the stamps are mostly countfeits.
And if you come across the 3 Mark and 5 Mark stamps : they are ALWAYS counterfeit.
There are already 30 different counterfeits of these hand stamp overprints.
These are usually offered as a complete set (of 30 stamps)
The real ones have a Catalog value of about 32000 Euros for HINGED (!!!) ( 38500 US$ )
Login to Like
this post
re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
P.S.
For those who do not know the abbrevation C.I.H.S.
It is a French abbreviation for: Commission Interalliée Haute Silésie (Inter-allied Commission for Upper Silesia).
And here are the Michel numbers 19-22 :
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
SOME FAKES (From eBAY)
The 80pf has a Bremen cancel that is dated 1913.
Bremen is not part of Upper Silesia and above all the stamps were issued in 1920 !!!!!!!!!!
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re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Gerom,
Found this on another forum :
HOPE THIS HELPS.......
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03:41:28pm
re: Deutsche abstimmungsgebiete / German voting areas
Excellent information.
As you anticipated, I also think they are fakes.
I dreamed beautifully for a few hours.
The auction started at 2 Euros and has now reached 35. (not thousands of Euros)
Thank you HockeyNut.
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