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General Philatelic/Supplies, Literature & Software : Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

 

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ClassicCollector
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First Century Collecting 1840 - 1940

30 Apr 2020
08:23:30pm
I am wondering if anyone knows a source of catalog number prefixes for Stanley Gibbons and Michel. I have already created a database for my collection in Microsoft Access and have entered the prefixes (i.e. B = Semi-Postal; C = Air Post) for Scott’s catalog.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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"The art of stamp-collecting is to get a number of good stamps, not to get a good number of any stamps."
michael78651
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30 Apr 2020
10:12:23pm
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Michael doesn't use special letters to designate stamp service type. They simply organize the stamps by service type. Under each service type, the numbering starts from 1.

Gibbons pretty much lists stamps in order of issue. Stamps for general postage are all together, including stamps like War Tax. Postage Dues have the letter "D", official stamps have the letter "O". Military have an "M", Offices have a "Z". Postal Fiscal stamps have an "F".

Like any catalogue, there will be some others used. I could not find a specific list for Gibbons' cataloguing system.

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nigelc
Members Picture


30 Apr 2020
11:01:31pm
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Hi,

Scott, SG and Michel all make use of prefixes but their approaches are quite different so you may have to think carefully about your data model. Happy

Michel doesn't make much use of prefixes but they appear to have been used to insert stamps into existing listings, e.g Cilicia has a short run that includes:

47
A47
B47
48
A48

where presumably at one time this part of the listing had just two numbers, 47 and 48.

Another thing Michel does is to include some unissued stamps but to give them Roman numbers: I, II, III, IV etc. which again could affect your data model if you wanted to include them.

As Michael has said, Michel splits out many subsidiary types of stamps as BOB but numbers each list from 1 without a prefix.

SG uses a number of standard prefixes such as:

AR - Acknowledgement of Receipt
D - Postage Due
E - Express Letter / Special Delivery
F - Postal Fiscal
L - Late Fee
M - Military Frank
MS - Miniature Sheet
N - Newspaper
O - Official
P - Parcel Post
R - Registration
SB - Stamp Booklets
Z - Used Abroad (identified only by postmark)
etc.

I've probably missed quite a few standard ones here.

However, SG also uses prefixes for special reasons within individual country listings (which may re-use some of the prefixes listed above).

For example in the Austria catalogue:

AH - Austria and Hungary
AHN - Austria and Hungary Newspaper
B - Savings Bank
F - French Currency Austro-Hungarian Post Offices in the Turkish Empire
J - Imperial Journal
V - United Nations (Vienna Centre)
MSV - United Nations (Vienna Centre) Miniature Sheet
etc.

My favourite area of Crete uses:

B - British Administration
R - Russian Administration
V - Revolutionary Assembly

Obligatory Tax stamps may have prefix C (Greece), T (Turkey) or no prefix at all.

There are lots of other, mostly obscure, uses such as:

K - United Nations Issue for Kosovo
P - Orange Free State Postcard Stamps
S - British Levant: Salonica Field Office
ZF - Hong Kong Postal Fiscal stamps Used Abroad (in China)
ZP - Hong Kong Postcard stamps Used Abroad (in China)

I'm not sure if this helps but I hope it at least gives some perspective to the problem.

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collectordave

01 May 2020
12:52:49am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Producing a data model for stamp collecting is not an easy task.

If you are producing your model just for your own use it is much easier, probably just a simple list would suffice.

Prefixes on catalogue numbers is just one little blind alley.

As well as all the ones above you also have to remember that catalogue numbers do change from time to time so there is no fixed data approach that can be used.

The model I use is to create a field for the issue type/format in which I put such things as Definitive, Commemorative, Official and Miniature Sheet etc.

You then have to deal with some catalogues that use prefixes for stamps that were used in different areas of the world such as in the post by nigelc S - British Levant this then where you become embroiled in what does 'Country' mean?

For a collector it is a mix of Area of the world at a particular point in history mixed with which normal country was controlling the area at that time. The easiest data model is to create a 'Country' for that area.

Now catalogues not all ctalogues list all stamps and they cannot be guaranteed to list the same stamps! Furthemore each catalogue groups individual stamps into different 'Sets'.

The approach here is to be very sure about what is stamp data and what data is peculiar to a stamp catalogue. Then have catalogues separate from the list of stamps and cross reference each stamp to the catalogue being used at the time.

For example 'Scott' number 1234 could be 'SG' number 4321 this of course means that you can ignore any catalogue number prefixes as it is just part of the catalogue number for that stamp using that particular catalogue.

If you have some database training then one word of caution beware of over normalization it may seem that some fields can be normalized but each one must be taken individually.

Clear as mud?

Cd

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

01 May 2020
07:02:39am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

I have yet to fully understand the logic behind SG prefixes in booklets. Scott's method is a lot simpler.

SG has DX/DY for prestige and PM for other tyoes, then FB,FC,FD,etc for others. Machins are mess too - some with no prefix, others with X,Y,U then regional issues abandon the X,Y and use country (NI,W,S).

The SG Concise does not have an good index of the prefixes so would like to find some index.


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Pogopossum

01 May 2020
09:33:20am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Doesn't SG use a different numbering system for GB stamps in their detailed catalogs than the concise? I don't have them in front of me but I seem to remember a cross-referencing system.

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ClassicCollector
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First Century Collecting 1840 - 1940

01 May 2020
10:17:40am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Thank you for all the information. I am currently using my database for my household only, I don't want to worry about copywrites. I have the prefixes and their descriptions entered (over 170) for Scott's; which is my primary catalog. I will have to give some thought to how I want to handle the other Catalogs. Currently I am using the comments field.

Thank you to all.

Keep safe.

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"The art of stamp-collecting is to get a number of good stamps, not to get a good number of any stamps."
michael78651
Members Picture


01 May 2020
10:29:15am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

So, Gibbons uses different numbering systems for its "standard" catalogues versus its specialized catalogues? (Using Crete from your example above.)

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nigelc
Members Picture


01 May 2020
11:09:04am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Hi Michael,

SG's standard catalogue consists of all the individual yellow Commonwealth catalogues (and the red Part 1 and the GB Concise etc.), and all the green (Europe) and blue (Overseas) foreign catalogues.

The colour of these is now gradually changing but the structure is the same.

They are often referred to as "specialised" catalogues but SG usually calls them "comprehensive".

SG's simplified catalogue ("Stamps of the World") uses the same numbers but picks only the lowest price stamp of any which are not face different.

As Pogopossum says, SG's Specialised SG catalogue has its own system of catalogue numbers which they cross-reference to the main catalogue.

I've got an old edition of SG's GB QV Specialised in front of me and opening it at random I find for the 1867-80 2s. blue Plate 1:

Spec. J118 cross-referenced to SG 118/20b with varieties (a) to (e), specimens (s) to (w) and shades (1) to (5) plus an imprimatur.

The two different 118 numbers is a coincidence. Happy The previous entry is:

Spec. J117 cross-referenced to SG 163 Plate 14.

The next entry is for the 2s. blue Plate 3 (one of the "abnormals"):

Spec. J119 cross-referenced to SG 120 with a main entry and price for used and a priced imprimatur but no other varieties.








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michael78651
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01 May 2020
03:10:07pm
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Wow, thanks. Well, since I'm saving up all my money to buy Scott to fix those catalogues, would you volunteer to buy Gibbons to do the same?

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angore
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Collector, Moderator

02 May 2020
06:09:16am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

I asked elsewhere on GB booklets and got this response. It helps somewhat.

D, not DX are stitched booklets, DN 10p, DH 25p, DQ 30p, DP 35p, etc.
DX Prestige Booklets,
F folded booklets: FA 10p, FB 50p, FC 65p, ..., FH £1
G barcoce - also windows - booklets same principle
H also, but with "no value indicators"
J also, but Penny Black Anniversary
KX also, but Greetings stamps
LX also, but Christmas
the P was used for self-adhesive booklets

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
ClassicCollector
Members Picture


First Century Collecting 1840 - 1940

02 May 2020
09:04:26pm
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Thank you for the additional information. Living in the US, people have various comments and complaints about Scotts. I find the various approaches that the different publishers of catalog have taken very interesting. It appears that all catalog have their legacy issues and unique perspectives. It only underscores what a daunting task it must be to publish any catalog. Luckily one of the joys in philately is the different approaches to collecting.

Viva la Difference


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"The art of stamp-collecting is to get a number of good stamps, not to get a good number of any stamps."
jlnstamps

09 Oct 2020
11:40:54am
re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Hi,

I'm a new member of stamporama.
Regarding this thread I have a Access DB with the information that is referred (or some of that)

This DB is available, for free, in my website
https://philatelydatabasecollectors.000webhostapp.com/

As it is known, the proprietary companies, especially those of the large catalogs (Michel, Scott, SG and Yvert), do not allow the use of this numbering. In this context, the numbering that appears in my DB is made up of the international country / area code and the respective numbering.

At the moment my DB only has 45 Countries / Areas but I am working (alone) to insert more.

I will be happy that you can use the application and that it will be useful for your collections.

Regards

Image Not Found

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philatelydatabasecollectors.000webhostapp.com/
        

 

Author/Postings
Members Picture
ClassicCollector

First Century Collecting 1840 - 1940
30 Apr 2020
08:23:30pm

I am wondering if anyone knows a source of catalog number prefixes for Stanley Gibbons and Michel. I have already created a database for my collection in Microsoft Access and have entered the prefixes (i.e. B = Semi-Postal; C = Air Post) for Scott’s catalog.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The art of stamp-collecting is to get a number of good stamps, not to get a good number of any stamps."
Members Picture
michael78651

30 Apr 2020
10:12:23pm

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Michael doesn't use special letters to designate stamp service type. They simply organize the stamps by service type. Under each service type, the numbering starts from 1.

Gibbons pretty much lists stamps in order of issue. Stamps for general postage are all together, including stamps like War Tax. Postage Dues have the letter "D", official stamps have the letter "O". Military have an "M", Offices have a "Z". Postal Fiscal stamps have an "F".

Like any catalogue, there will be some others used. I could not find a specific list for Gibbons' cataloguing system.

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
nigelc

30 Apr 2020
11:01:31pm

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Hi,

Scott, SG and Michel all make use of prefixes but their approaches are quite different so you may have to think carefully about your data model. Happy

Michel doesn't make much use of prefixes but they appear to have been used to insert stamps into existing listings, e.g Cilicia has a short run that includes:

47
A47
B47
48
A48

where presumably at one time this part of the listing had just two numbers, 47 and 48.

Another thing Michel does is to include some unissued stamps but to give them Roman numbers: I, II, III, IV etc. which again could affect your data model if you wanted to include them.

As Michael has said, Michel splits out many subsidiary types of stamps as BOB but numbers each list from 1 without a prefix.

SG uses a number of standard prefixes such as:

AR - Acknowledgement of Receipt
D - Postage Due
E - Express Letter / Special Delivery
F - Postal Fiscal
L - Late Fee
M - Military Frank
MS - Miniature Sheet
N - Newspaper
O - Official
P - Parcel Post
R - Registration
SB - Stamp Booklets
Z - Used Abroad (identified only by postmark)
etc.

I've probably missed quite a few standard ones here.

However, SG also uses prefixes for special reasons within individual country listings (which may re-use some of the prefixes listed above).

For example in the Austria catalogue:

AH - Austria and Hungary
AHN - Austria and Hungary Newspaper
B - Savings Bank
F - French Currency Austro-Hungarian Post Offices in the Turkish Empire
J - Imperial Journal
V - United Nations (Vienna Centre)
MSV - United Nations (Vienna Centre) Miniature Sheet
etc.

My favourite area of Crete uses:

B - British Administration
R - Russian Administration
V - Revolutionary Assembly

Obligatory Tax stamps may have prefix C (Greece), T (Turkey) or no prefix at all.

There are lots of other, mostly obscure, uses such as:

K - United Nations Issue for Kosovo
P - Orange Free State Postcard Stamps
S - British Levant: Salonica Field Office
ZF - Hong Kong Postal Fiscal stamps Used Abroad (in China)
ZP - Hong Kong Postcard stamps Used Abroad (in China)

I'm not sure if this helps but I hope it at least gives some perspective to the problem.

Like
Login to Like
this post
collectordave

01 May 2020
12:52:49am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Producing a data model for stamp collecting is not an easy task.

If you are producing your model just for your own use it is much easier, probably just a simple list would suffice.

Prefixes on catalogue numbers is just one little blind alley.

As well as all the ones above you also have to remember that catalogue numbers do change from time to time so there is no fixed data approach that can be used.

The model I use is to create a field for the issue type/format in which I put such things as Definitive, Commemorative, Official and Miniature Sheet etc.

You then have to deal with some catalogues that use prefixes for stamps that were used in different areas of the world such as in the post by nigelc S - British Levant this then where you become embroiled in what does 'Country' mean?

For a collector it is a mix of Area of the world at a particular point in history mixed with which normal country was controlling the area at that time. The easiest data model is to create a 'Country' for that area.

Now catalogues not all ctalogues list all stamps and they cannot be guaranteed to list the same stamps! Furthemore each catalogue groups individual stamps into different 'Sets'.

The approach here is to be very sure about what is stamp data and what data is peculiar to a stamp catalogue. Then have catalogues separate from the list of stamps and cross reference each stamp to the catalogue being used at the time.

For example 'Scott' number 1234 could be 'SG' number 4321 this of course means that you can ignore any catalogue number prefixes as it is just part of the catalogue number for that stamp using that particular catalogue.

If you have some database training then one word of caution beware of over normalization it may seem that some fields can be normalized but each one must be taken individually.

Clear as mud?

Cd

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Login to Like
this post

stampcollector.epizy ...
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angore

Collector, Moderator
01 May 2020
07:02:39am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

I have yet to fully understand the logic behind SG prefixes in booklets. Scott's method is a lot simpler.

SG has DX/DY for prestige and PM for other tyoes, then FB,FC,FD,etc for others. Machins are mess too - some with no prefix, others with X,Y,U then regional issues abandon the X,Y and use country (NI,W,S).

The SG Concise does not have an good index of the prefixes so would like to find some index.


Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
Pogopossum

01 May 2020
09:33:20am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Doesn't SG use a different numbering system for GB stamps in their detailed catalogs than the concise? I don't have them in front of me but I seem to remember a cross-referencing system.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
ClassicCollector

First Century Collecting 1840 - 1940
01 May 2020
10:17:40am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Thank you for all the information. I am currently using my database for my household only, I don't want to worry about copywrites. I have the prefixes and their descriptions entered (over 170) for Scott's; which is my primary catalog. I will have to give some thought to how I want to handle the other Catalogs. Currently I am using the comments field.

Thank you to all.

Keep safe.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"The art of stamp-collecting is to get a number of good stamps, not to get a good number of any stamps."
Members Picture
michael78651

01 May 2020
10:29:15am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

So, Gibbons uses different numbering systems for its "standard" catalogues versus its specialized catalogues? (Using Crete from your example above.)

Like
Login to Like
this post

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
nigelc

01 May 2020
11:09:04am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Hi Michael,

SG's standard catalogue consists of all the individual yellow Commonwealth catalogues (and the red Part 1 and the GB Concise etc.), and all the green (Europe) and blue (Overseas) foreign catalogues.

The colour of these is now gradually changing but the structure is the same.

They are often referred to as "specialised" catalogues but SG usually calls them "comprehensive".

SG's simplified catalogue ("Stamps of the World") uses the same numbers but picks only the lowest price stamp of any which are not face different.

As Pogopossum says, SG's Specialised SG catalogue has its own system of catalogue numbers which they cross-reference to the main catalogue.

I've got an old edition of SG's GB QV Specialised in front of me and opening it at random I find for the 1867-80 2s. blue Plate 1:

Spec. J118 cross-referenced to SG 118/20b with varieties (a) to (e), specimens (s) to (w) and shades (1) to (5) plus an imprimatur.

The two different 118 numbers is a coincidence. Happy The previous entry is:

Spec. J117 cross-referenced to SG 163 Plate 14.

The next entry is for the 2s. blue Plate 3 (one of the "abnormals"):

Spec. J119 cross-referenced to SG 120 with a main entry and price for used and a priced imprimatur but no other varieties.








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michael78651

01 May 2020
03:10:07pm

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Wow, thanks. Well, since I'm saving up all my money to buy Scott to fix those catalogues, would you volunteer to buy Gibbons to do the same?

Like 
2 Members
like this post.
Login to Like.

www.hipstamp.com/sto ...
Members Picture
angore

Collector, Moderator
02 May 2020
06:09:16am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

I asked elsewhere on GB booklets and got this response. It helps somewhat.

D, not DX are stitched booklets, DN 10p, DH 25p, DQ 30p, DP 35p, etc.
DX Prestige Booklets,
F folded booklets: FA 10p, FB 50p, FC 65p, ..., FH £1
G barcoce - also windows - booklets same principle
H also, but with "no value indicators"
J also, but Penny Black Anniversary
KX also, but Greetings stamps
LX also, but Christmas
the P was used for self-adhesive booklets

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
Members Picture
ClassicCollector

First Century Collecting 1840 - 1940
02 May 2020
09:04:26pm

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Thank you for the additional information. Living in the US, people have various comments and complaints about Scotts. I find the various approaches that the different publishers of catalog have taken very interesting. It appears that all catalog have their legacy issues and unique perspectives. It only underscores what a daunting task it must be to publish any catalog. Luckily one of the joys in philately is the different approaches to collecting.

Viva la Difference


Like
Login to Like
this post

"The art of stamp-collecting is to get a number of good stamps, not to get a good number of any stamps."
jlnstamps

09 Oct 2020
11:40:54am

re: Information Needed - Catalog Prefixes - Stanley Gibbons & Michel

Hi,

I'm a new member of stamporama.
Regarding this thread I have a Access DB with the information that is referred (or some of that)

This DB is available, for free, in my website
https://philatelydatabasecollectors.000webhostapp.com/

As it is known, the proprietary companies, especially those of the large catalogs (Michel, Scott, SG and Yvert), do not allow the use of this numbering. In this context, the numbering that appears in my DB is made up of the international country / area code and the respective numbering.

At the moment my DB only has 45 Countries / Areas but I am working (alone) to insert more.

I will be happy that you can use the application and that it will be useful for your collections.

Regards

Image Not Found

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