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United States/Stamps : Washington Franklin sanity check

 

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AGKING
Members Picture


31 Aug 2020
07:56:40pm
I enjoy a good challenge now and then but collecting US Washington Franklin stamps is a bitter sweet obsession. The details and varieties are fascinating yet frustrating at the same time. I went through about 120 envelopes of "categorized" WF's to check on my previous "skills"- I would say a good 10% were totally off. Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?
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musicman
Members Picture


APS #213005

31 Aug 2020
08:13:11pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

"Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?"



You're just bad at it....and so am I ....and so are thousands of other collectors.

Laughing



Kidding aside, I think there are far more collectors that struggle with the W/F series than there are those that don't.

And that includes those that specialize in them as well, in my opinion/experience.




But keep working at it! It gets easier over time....like 100 years or so! Big Grin



I have a bunch waiting to be identified when I get up the courage to try and fail again!
At Wits End

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Calstamp

01 Sep 2020
07:11:35am
re: Washington Franklin sanity check


Here’s a resource I have found to be very helpful.

stampsmarter dot com

Washington Franklin Identifier Tool

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oldtriguy1960
Members Picture


01 Sep 2020
08:12:52am
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

My biggest challenge with the WFs is the watermarking.. Many times it is near impossible or impossible to determine if there is a watermark at all or if it is single line or double line.

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51Studebaker
Members Picture


Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

01 Sep 2020
09:35:22am
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_LocationsWatermarks.html

W/F watermarks can indeed be challenging; the orientation can lead to some stamp having just a small part of a watermark showing on a stamp. See here for more info
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_OrientationsWatermarks.html
Click on the ‘Popup Tool’ button on the bottom left of the page above and then grab the stamp and move it around to see how the watermark can hardly even appear on some stamps.

Making matters worse, the W/F watermarks can be extraordinarily hard to see even if they are orientated well on a stamp; the yellow and orange inked stamps are notorious difficult even for highly experienced hobbyists.

Tip: W/F watermarks are often only visible during the ‘flash’ that occurs just as you dip the stamp or (more likely) just as the watermark fluid completes drying on the stamp. This requires you to sit there and wait as it dries, waiting for the split second or two that the watermark ‘flashes’. It often takes me 5-6 dipping’s before I convince myself that I saw the watermark. Keep in mind that that only a small part of the watermark, sometimes on the perfs, may be visible. I find that a glass or two of a quality single malt Scotch often helps too.

There are a number of useful tools and an exhaustive amount of ID information on the W/F series on Stamp Smarter. This tool may be helpful in demonstrating the best ID process.
er. http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/SQL_Wash_Frank_ID.html

This is a good visual ID helper
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/washfrank/washfrankmain.html


And given that over 85%-90% of the W/F coils being listed for sale are faked/altered, you must be extremely careful on them. A careful study of the 'source' material (original sheet stamps which are altered to fool hobbyists) a study of this page should greatly assist your understanding
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html

Don

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musicman
Members Picture


APS #213005

01 Sep 2020
09:03:16pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I own or use a dozen or so identifier tools and I STILL have trouble....often.


Thinking

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Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

02 Sep 2020
10:53:59am
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

You guys scare me a little bit. When I buy from an on-line source should I always double check to see if the stamp is correctly identified? Even if I buy from someone on SOR? I'm afraid I am usually way too trusting!!!

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

02 Sep 2020
11:30:00am

Auctions
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

it helps to take at least a cursory look; i've often found mistakes, sometimes just sending the wrong lot; othertimes incorrectly identified.

I think our members are mostly honest, and mostly learned enough to either correctly ID the stamp or indicate they don't know. our auctioneers and approval moderators (Michael and Antonio) often look at lots and, from a scan, can tell if many things are incorrectly IDd. when they do, they require the lister to revise or remove.

of course, buyers also need to be educated; those stamps that are essentially unlikely to be genuine should be considered fakes unless they are accompanied by a reputable cert.

I think ebay represents the broader swath of humanity's good, evil, greedy, and uneducated.

I don't shop much from other sources, like Hip and Delcampe, so I can't comment.

Roy's BuckACover site should be considered utterly reliable.

David

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larsdog
Members Picture


APS #220693 ATA#57179

02 Sep 2020
05:17:43pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

When it comes to Washington-Franklins, there are many that are not too difficult to identify. I created a tool for myself 15 years ago that helps summarize them:

http:www.larsdog.com/stamps/note3B.htm

(I left off the China Paper, Bluish Paper, and rare perforations, but you would want those expertized anyway).

I look not only at the watermark, but also what else has that watermark. For example, in the ONE CENT Franklin, Scott 387 is SL watermark with a handsome catalog value. The DL wmk is also pricey, so I'm not too worried about the watermark being misidentified, but the sheet stamp (374) is only $6.50 mint and 25¢ used. The imperf (383) is even cheaper mint at $2.25, so I would be more worried about perfs added to a 383 or trimmed perfs on a 374 than an intentional mis-identification on the watermark. I will still check it, but I would be MUCH more diligent about checking for alterations.

If a stamp IS altered, it doesn't mean the seller is dishonest. They may have been fooled as well. That's why I'm a believer in working my way up the price scale because the alterations get better and better the more expensive the stamp is. At a certain point it would be risky NOT to get a cert.

I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps. My #331 is from plate number 4989. That plate wasn't used to make 357 or 374, so no need to check watermark or perforation at all.

Image Not Found

Lars

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Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

02 Sep 2020
05:33:10pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

Most of my early Wash./Fran. have been either picked up from SOL (last yr. or so) or from a dealer I've been using since 1972. I trust both sources but I suppose I should check a few occasionally, but I absolutely hate watermarks. I hate them so much that I occasionally send them off to my dealer if I have a few that need to be identified. His cost is very reasonable and the father does the checking and he has been in the business for about 50 years. The early US is probably harder to identify than any other group of stamps.

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larsdog
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APS #220693 ATA#57179

02 Sep 2020
05:38:47pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

Harvey,

I also dislike watermarks, especially SL watermarks, and especially on yellow stamps. DL watermarks aren't usually too bad. I mostly collect US, so I only have to check foreign watermarks on rare occasions and generally have found them to be as easy as US DL.

But I don't blame you one bit for hating watermarks!

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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51Studebaker
Members Picture


Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't

03 Sep 2020
05:17:28am
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

"...I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps..."



I hesitated on recommending this since a lot of the same plate numbers are used for different catalog numbered stamps, but sometimes it can help you narrow it down. So here is another easy to use online tool for instantly finding the catalog number of any US stamp by plate number
http://stampsmarter.com/features/PlateBlockHome.html

Click on the 'Search By Plate Number' tab, enter the plate number, and it will return any US stamp with that number.
Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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angore
Members Picture


Collector, Moderator

03 Sep 2020
12:40:11pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one.

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"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
AGKING
Members Picture


04 Sep 2020
07:25:24am
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

Thank you fellow sufferers and WF lovers
I have a tray, watermark fluid, decent eye sight and use these great online tools
My shame is I still mess it up - but as Musicman said.... I will forge on and get it right....some day

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DavidG
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APS member since 2004

04 Sep 2020
02:11:41pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I use a Micarelli Guide, a US Specialized Multi-Gauge, watermark fluid and a good glass. No problems.
Image Not Found
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada

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mbo1142
Members Picture


I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

04 Sep 2020
03:19:26pm

Approvals
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I use all of David's items, plus The Expert's Book A Practical Guide to the Authentication of Unites States Stamps, Washington/Franklin Issues 1908-1923 by Paul Schmid.

If you are going to work with W/F, I highly recommend this book. It might also be helpful to take a look at his other book, How to Detect Damaged, Altered, and Repaired Stamps.


With W/F there are a lot of other things to look at besides watermarks. But, I agree, watermarks are a pain in the you know what.

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larsdog
Members Picture


APS #220693 ATA#57179

04 Sep 2020
05:53:31pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

"I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one."



I wasn't aware of any wet/dry printings of the Liberty series that shared a plate number. And you don't even HAVE to get a plate number. I think all of the wet printings have the horizontal guidelines aligned with the top of a stamps and the dry printings have the guidelines aligned with the center of the stamp, but if there is a plate number that was used for both then that is incorrect. I know that QE1-3 used the same plates for wet and dry printings.

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stamps
DavidG
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APS member since 2004

04 Sep 2020
09:16:58pm
re: Washington Franklin sanity check

mbo:

I've those books, and a few others I use, too. I have over 55 USA referernce books in my library, some are out-of-print, and are real gems of information.

David

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Author/Postings
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AGKING

31 Aug 2020
07:56:40pm

I enjoy a good challenge now and then but collecting US Washington Franklin stamps is a bitter sweet obsession. The details and varieties are fascinating yet frustrating at the same time. I went through about 120 envelopes of "categorized" WF's to check on my previous "skills"- I would say a good 10% were totally off. Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?

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1 Member
likes this post.
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Members Picture
musicman

APS #213005
31 Aug 2020
08:13:11pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

"Am I just really bad at this or is this a common frustration for WF collectors?"



You're just bad at it....and so am I ....and so are thousands of other collectors.

Laughing



Kidding aside, I think there are far more collectors that struggle with the W/F series than there are those that don't.

And that includes those that specialize in them as well, in my opinion/experience.




But keep working at it! It gets easier over time....like 100 years or so! Big Grin



I have a bunch waiting to be identified when I get up the courage to try and fail again!
At Wits End

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Calstamp

01 Sep 2020
07:11:35am

re: Washington Franklin sanity check


Here’s a resource I have found to be very helpful.

stampsmarter dot com

Washington Franklin Identifier Tool

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Members Picture
oldtriguy1960

01 Sep 2020
08:12:52am

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

My biggest challenge with the WFs is the watermarking.. Many times it is near impossible or impossible to determine if there is a watermark at all or if it is single line or double line.

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this post
Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
01 Sep 2020
09:35:22am

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_LocationsWatermarks.html

W/F watermarks can indeed be challenging; the orientation can lead to some stamp having just a small part of a watermark showing on a stamp. See here for more info
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Manuf_OrientationsWatermarks.html
Click on the ‘Popup Tool’ button on the bottom left of the page above and then grab the stamp and move it around to see how the watermark can hardly even appear on some stamps.

Making matters worse, the W/F watermarks can be extraordinarily hard to see even if they are orientated well on a stamp; the yellow and orange inked stamps are notorious difficult even for highly experienced hobbyists.

Tip: W/F watermarks are often only visible during the ‘flash’ that occurs just as you dip the stamp or (more likely) just as the watermark fluid completes drying on the stamp. This requires you to sit there and wait as it dries, waiting for the split second or two that the watermark ‘flashes’. It often takes me 5-6 dipping’s before I convince myself that I saw the watermark. Keep in mind that that only a small part of the watermark, sometimes on the perfs, may be visible. I find that a glass or two of a quality single malt Scotch often helps too.

There are a number of useful tools and an exhaustive amount of ID information on the W/F series on Stamp Smarter. This tool may be helpful in demonstrating the best ID process.
er. http://www.stampsmarter.com/features/SQL_Wash_Frank_ID.html

This is a good visual ID helper
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/washfrank/washfrankmain.html


And given that over 85%-90% of the W/F coils being listed for sale are faked/altered, you must be extremely careful on them. A careful study of the 'source' material (original sheet stamps which are altered to fool hobbyists) a study of this page should greatly assist your understanding
http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa/WFFakes.html

Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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musicman

APS #213005
01 Sep 2020
09:03:16pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I own or use a dozen or so identifier tools and I STILL have trouble....often.


Thinking

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Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

02 Sep 2020
10:53:59am

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

You guys scare me a little bit. When I buy from an on-line source should I always double check to see if the stamp is correctly identified? Even if I buy from someone on SOR? I'm afraid I am usually way too trusting!!!

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
02 Sep 2020
11:30:00am

Auctions

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

it helps to take at least a cursory look; i've often found mistakes, sometimes just sending the wrong lot; othertimes incorrectly identified.

I think our members are mostly honest, and mostly learned enough to either correctly ID the stamp or indicate they don't know. our auctioneers and approval moderators (Michael and Antonio) often look at lots and, from a scan, can tell if many things are incorrectly IDd. when they do, they require the lister to revise or remove.

of course, buyers also need to be educated; those stamps that are essentially unlikely to be genuine should be considered fakes unless they are accompanied by a reputable cert.

I think ebay represents the broader swath of humanity's good, evil, greedy, and uneducated.

I don't shop much from other sources, like Hip and Delcampe, so I can't comment.

Roy's BuckACover site should be considered utterly reliable.

David

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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
02 Sep 2020
05:17:43pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

When it comes to Washington-Franklins, there are many that are not too difficult to identify. I created a tool for myself 15 years ago that helps summarize them:

http:www.larsdog.com/stamps/note3B.htm

(I left off the China Paper, Bluish Paper, and rare perforations, but you would want those expertized anyway).

I look not only at the watermark, but also what else has that watermark. For example, in the ONE CENT Franklin, Scott 387 is SL watermark with a handsome catalog value. The DL wmk is also pricey, so I'm not too worried about the watermark being misidentified, but the sheet stamp (374) is only $6.50 mint and 25¢ used. The imperf (383) is even cheaper mint at $2.25, so I would be more worried about perfs added to a 383 or trimmed perfs on a 374 than an intentional mis-identification on the watermark. I will still check it, but I would be MUCH more diligent about checking for alterations.

If a stamp IS altered, it doesn't mean the seller is dishonest. They may have been fooled as well. That's why I'm a believer in working my way up the price scale because the alterations get better and better the more expensive the stamp is. At a certain point it would be risky NOT to get a cert.

I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps. My #331 is from plate number 4989. That plate wasn't used to make 357 or 374, so no need to check watermark or perforation at all.

Image Not Found

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

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Harvey

I think, therefore I am - I think!

02 Sep 2020
05:33:10pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

Most of my early Wash./Fran. have been either picked up from SOL (last yr. or so) or from a dealer I've been using since 1972. I trust both sources but I suppose I should check a few occasionally, but I absolutely hate watermarks. I hate them so much that I occasionally send them off to my dealer if I have a few that need to be identified. His cost is very reasonable and the father does the checking and he has been in the business for about 50 years. The early US is probably harder to identify than any other group of stamps.

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larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
02 Sep 2020
05:38:47pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

Harvey,

I also dislike watermarks, especially SL watermarks, and especially on yellow stamps. DL watermarks aren't usually too bad. I mostly collect US, so I only have to check foreign watermarks on rare occasions and generally have found them to be as easy as US DL.

But I don't blame you one bit for hating watermarks!

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
51Studebaker

Dialysis, damned if you do...dead if you don't
03 Sep 2020
05:17:28am

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

"...I also use plate numbers quite often to identify W-F stamps..."



I hesitated on recommending this since a lot of the same plate numbers are used for different catalog numbered stamps, but sometimes it can help you narrow it down. So here is another easy to use online tool for instantly finding the catalog number of any US stamp by plate number
http://stampsmarter.com/features/PlateBlockHome.html

Click on the 'Search By Plate Number' tab, enter the plate number, and it will return any US stamp with that number.
Don

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"Current Score... Don 1 - Cancer 0"

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angore

Collector, Moderator
03 Sep 2020
12:40:11pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Stamp Collecting is a many splendored thing"
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AGKING

04 Sep 2020
07:25:24am

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

Thank you fellow sufferers and WF lovers
I have a tray, watermark fluid, decent eye sight and use these great online tools
My shame is I still mess it up - but as Musicman said.... I will forge on and get it right....some day

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
DavidG

APS member since 2004
04 Sep 2020
02:11:41pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I use a Micarelli Guide, a US Specialized Multi-Gauge, watermark fluid and a good glass. No problems.
Image Not Found
David Giles
Chris Green Stamps
Ottawa, Canada

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"President, The Society for Costa Rica Collectors"
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mbo1142

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
04 Sep 2020
03:19:26pm

Approvals

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

I use all of David's items, plus The Expert's Book A Practical Guide to the Authentication of Unites States Stamps, Washington/Franklin Issues 1908-1923 by Paul Schmid.

If you are going to work with W/F, I highly recommend this book. It might also be helpful to take a look at his other book, How to Detect Damaged, Altered, and Repaired Stamps.


With W/F there are a lot of other things to look at besides watermarks. But, I agree, watermarks are a pain in the you know what.

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
larsdog

APS #220693 ATA#57179
04 Sep 2020
05:53:31pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

"I have used plate numbers on some Liberty series to ensure I had wet and dry printings. Of course but some plates did both usually there is at least 1 unique one."



I wasn't aware of any wet/dry printings of the Liberty series that shared a plate number. And you don't even HAVE to get a plate number. I think all of the wet printings have the horizontal guidelines aligned with the top of a stamps and the dry printings have the guidelines aligned with the center of the stamp, but if there is a plate number that was used for both then that is incorrect. I know that QE1-3 used the same plates for wet and dry printings.

Lars

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"Expanding your knowledge faster than your collection can save you a few bucks."

www.larsdog.com/stam ...
Members Picture
DavidG

APS member since 2004
04 Sep 2020
09:16:58pm

re: Washington Franklin sanity check

mbo:

I've those books, and a few others I use, too. I have over 55 USA referernce books in my library, some are out-of-print, and are real gems of information.

David

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"President, The Society for Costa Rica Collectors"
        

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