Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
CTO's normally start as mint sheets that are been cancelled en masse before they are sold to stamp wholesalers, who in turn sell them at inflated prices to retailers, who in turn sell them, by this time separated into singles, at really inflated prices to collectors. They aren't hard to identify. Most still have their original gum, and even if the gum is washed off they have nearly perfect quarter-circle cancellations in on corner, often printed by machine rather than applied with a handstamp.
Most CTO's have minimal if any commercial value. A very few, because copies are hard to find in mint or used condition, command fairly high prices.
Some CTO's are difficult to identify as such. That is the case with the German definitive stamps of the "Inflationary" period of the 1920's. Many of these stamps were cancelled by hand and sold at a discount. Very few were used for postage, because people didn't have enough money to send letters. This was the period when inflation was so rampant that postal rates went up every few days, and millions of marks wouldn't be enough to buy bread.
Used "Inflation Period" stamps command premium prices, far above mint prices, if it can be determined that they were actually used postally. The Scott catalogue carries a prominent warning to this effect.
Right now on eBay, Roy Lingen, Stamporama's chairman, is offering a cover "franked" with a range of these stamps, all favor cancelled, which is about the same thing as CTO's. (A stamp is considered favor cancelled when the purchaser asks a postal clerk to cancel them. They can be on or off cover, and are considered strickly philatelic.)
Here is Roy's cover:
There's no question that these stamps were favor cancelled -- Roy describes them as such. In fact, they couldnt' be anything else, because the cover has no address or other postal markings. What's interesting to me is that if the stamps were soaked off, they would appear to be postally used, and it would probably take an expert to determine that they were favor cancelled, especially if they were sold as single stamps rather than one lot.
I guess this is a cautionary tale: in collecting, a little time spent studying your stamp catalogue can save you big money! Or improve your odds of buying a valuable stamp for almost nothing, just because you know more than the seller.
By the way, I want to make sure you understand that this post in no way implies criticism of Roy or his attempt to sell his cover. He is, as always, "up front" about what he is offering, and the cover is an interesting philatelic artifact. If if fitted in more closely with my own collecting interests, I would bid on it.
I should mention, too, that Roy has an interesting exhibit of Inflation Period stamps on this web site. It's titled ”German Inflation 1923”
Bob Ingraham
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Now I'm really confused.
You mean to tell me that when I'm mailing an envelope and take it into the postal clerk and ask him/her to hand cancel the stamp that it is favoured cancelled even though it's going through the postal system?
I consider First Day Covers put out by many of the Postal Systems to be favoured cancelled.
What about when all stamps were hand cancelled and not put through a machine? Are those favoured cancelled too?
Liz
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In my mind "favor cancelled" has no strict philatelic definition -- it is a descriptive term. I would only ever apply it to a cover. It indicates that the cover was cancelled, but never went through the mail. Usually, that means there is no address. If it were addressed, one couldn't tell whether it was mailed or handed back. Some dealers call them "hand-back" covers.
In the case of the stamps on this cover, even an expert couldn't call them CTO if they were soaked off. The experts base their opinions of CTO cancels of this period on knowledge of the cancels that were used in mass producing the CTO's -- the dates and towns they see all the time. It is possible, but unlikely, that this cover was mass produced in sufficient quantity that the date and town would be recognized on the "CTO list". Since the cancels are all placed differently, should these stamps be soaked off and separated, they would be "used" for all intents and purposes.
I believe that the real lesson in Bob's post is not to pay premium prices for material that has unusual circumstances like this unless you are an expert, or wish to become one (and are willing to pay your "dues" along the way.)
Roy
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Bob,
not all favor cancels are CTO-- many are hand stamped because they are on larger than an envelope package,at least true in the U.S.
And I imagine a lot of other world post offices werent and still arent automated o the extent of machine canceling all mail.
But one should try to acquire them on cover to show that they were hand stamped,and not mass produced CTOs.
There are of course, the topical collector,who dosent care about the value end of collecting,as long as the stamp pictures the topic they collect.But it is also wise to study your topic,and the stamps involved,for as you say,you may be paying too much for something that is of little value,other than it fits your topic.
Its good to get to know the person,or dealer,you buy or trade from,to insure all persons involved get a fair shake in the transactions.
A study of priceing for CTO stamps will reveal that the cost for them has gone from 50 cents per 500,to 1.25 per 100.They didnt go up in value though,Its because our dollars deflated and dont buy as much as they use to.The cost ratio remains the same.No apparent monetary value.
Most of the price is for the dealer to handle and ship them to the buyer,with hopes of future business from the collector.
TOM
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Unless you have an actual cover, you don't know if a stamp really ever was "postally used".
A CTO from a respectable country can have its gum soaked...and appear quite "postally used".
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The discussion about "favored cancels" is the reason why I always posted my self addressed covers, hoping they´s get a SON machine cancel.
A cover like this is doubtful. My own handwritting on a cover addressed to myself, and no return address on the back. On the other hand: Soaking the stamp would make it appear VFU or Superb Used 
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08:12:11pm
These are the definitions I use for different situations.
CTO = Cancelled To Order. Stamps cancelled either during the printing process or immediately thereafter in bulk, before being sold on the open market.
Handback = Favor Canceled = Cancelled at the post office and returned to the collector either to get a clear example of the cancellation or to create a nicely cancelled stamp for the collection.
Controlled mail/cancellation = Stamps used on an envelope or parcel and mailed to ones self or to someone who will return the cover (or the torn corner) to the sender, something that I do with X-mas presents and birthday presents to my grand children to generate postally used examples for my collections. (Similar to Favor Cancelled, but left at the post office on actual mail.)
Philatelic Mail = Usually attractive stamps used by collectors or dealers, often from the discount postage pile, on mail being sent to someone who is thought to appreciate the courtesy.
Remainders, Stamps that were issued for a specific purpose or for a limited time. The remaining inventory is cancelled with the expiration date and sold for pennies, probably by the pound, to dealers.
First Day of Issue stamps or covers ("FDCs") can be postally used if they carry even the simplest message; " .... Here are some stamps you may like. ...." Usually they will carry both an address and a return address, plus routing marks.
Unaddressed FDCs are, in my opinion, merely "Contrived Souvenirs". However they are often collected in large numbers by devoted collectors and sometimes disposed of by the file drawer inch to packet dealers for a pittance.
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So the conclusion I'm getting from this discussion is that the average stamp collector may have a good number of CTOs, favor canceled stamps, or philatelic mail items and not know it if they are collecting postage stamps as opposed to covers.
As there is nothing much one can do about it, except to collect covers, and avoid gummed stamps from questionable issuing countries, why worry about it? Should I shun SON canceled stamps and look for nice smudged cancels instead? I suppose I could shun stamps canceled in major cities, but even that's not a sure thing.
For example, I am pretty sure that in my collection of Swiss semi-postal stamps, which is pretty complete, which is largely used and without gum, there are likely at least a few stamps that fall in the categories mentioned above. There is no way for me to tell really, even if the stamp is SON canceled or canceled in Geneva. I am not going to now start trying to collect all the stamps on cover. I could try an collect all mint, but frankly it doesn't matter to me at this point in my collecting career.
In my Hungarian collection I have quite a few favor canceled covers like the one shown at the top of the post and a few philatelic mail items like PeterG's self addressed cover. I'm glad to have them. They were good enough for the fellow that owned them before me and I am happy with them. I'm also confident they will, over the years, retain the small value that I paid for them.
Was I "fooled" when I bought these items. No. I doubt there was any intention to trick me into buying a few Swiss CTOs in the bunch. That is the risk when you buy stamps off cover, especially with stamps that are pretty rare in genuine postal use. But it is something to think about when you are considering plunking down 25%-50% of CV for used off cover stamps of moderate value. Try to get them cheaper to cover the potential "problems".
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To me, the key component in the definition of CTO is that it means cancelled to the order of the postal authority. The stamps shown in the initial thread therefore are not CTOs any way you look at them. Moreover, it also means that CTOs usually can be identified. Often, the cancel is printed on the stamp. If not, in many cases postal authorities use specific cancelling devices for CTOs that have never been used for regular postal service (Berlin ZPF, Berlin W8 ab, ac, ad, al, an, ao, z, or zz on GDR). In those cases where postal authorities used cancelling devices that also were used for regular postal duty, the instances tend to be noted in the specialized literature.
Whether favor cancels, handbacks, etc., that is stamps cancelled at the request of the collector using regular, contemporaneous postal cancels, are "inferior" or not, is probably a question of taste. I re-read the Scott catalog foreword and it is quite wishy-washy what the valuation of "used" actually is for. Michel values used stamps as "cancelled with postal cancellation," but occasionally provides a second valuation for stamps "cancelled for philatelic purposes."
The real issue with the cover that started the discussion about ten years ago is that we have a full set of German inflation period official stamps on an unaddressed cover. While I see that a collector could take a bunch of stamps to a post office to get some "nice cancels," the same shouldn't be possible for official stamps, which can only be used by the government entity for which the stamps were issued. But then again: I am not the expert on this and perhaps the German official stamps were available for sale to the general public.
I don't see anything overtly "wrong" with the cancel. The date fits the period of use, and none of the "giveaway" indications of a fake inflation cancel are present (at least none that I can tell.) Certain forms of cancels did not appear until later and cannot be genuine on inflation era stamps. So, it is possible that the cancel is favor, but contemporaneous, but equally likely that it is a backdated fabrication. Due to the turmoil in WWII many genuine cancels got into collectors' hands. Fortunately fairly good literature exists which lists the numerous dubious cancels. Perhaps some other member can check the postmark "Hamburg * 8 r."
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08:30:56pm
There have been many discussions on this board about Cancelled-to-Order stamps (CTO's), not to mention the relative values of mint and used stamps. Most beginning collectors assume that mint stamps are always worth more than used stamps. It ain't necessarily so. But then again....
CTO's normally start as mint sheets that are been cancelled en masse before they are sold to stamp wholesalers, who in turn sell them at inflated prices to retailers, who in turn sell them, by this time separated into singles, at really inflated prices to collectors. They aren't hard to identify. Most still have their original gum, and even if the gum is washed off they have nearly perfect quarter-circle cancellations in on corner, often printed by machine rather than applied with a handstamp.
Most CTO's have minimal if any commercial value. A very few, because copies are hard to find in mint or used condition, command fairly high prices.
Some CTO's are difficult to identify as such. That is the case with the German definitive stamps of the "Inflationary" period of the 1920's. Many of these stamps were cancelled by hand and sold at a discount. Very few were used for postage, because people didn't have enough money to send letters. This was the period when inflation was so rampant that postal rates went up every few days, and millions of marks wouldn't be enough to buy bread.
Used "Inflation Period" stamps command premium prices, far above mint prices, if it can be determined that they were actually used postally. The Scott catalogue carries a prominent warning to this effect.
Right now on eBay, Roy Lingen, Stamporama's chairman, is offering a cover "franked" with a range of these stamps, all favor cancelled, which is about the same thing as CTO's. (A stamp is considered favor cancelled when the purchaser asks a postal clerk to cancel them. They can be on or off cover, and are considered strickly philatelic.)
Here is Roy's cover:
There's no question that these stamps were favor cancelled -- Roy describes them as such. In fact, they couldnt' be anything else, because the cover has no address or other postal markings. What's interesting to me is that if the stamps were soaked off, they would appear to be postally used, and it would probably take an expert to determine that they were favor cancelled, especially if they were sold as single stamps rather than one lot.
I guess this is a cautionary tale: in collecting, a little time spent studying your stamp catalogue can save you big money! Or improve your odds of buying a valuable stamp for almost nothing, just because you know more than the seller.
By the way, I want to make sure you understand that this post in no way implies criticism of Roy or his attempt to sell his cover. He is, as always, "up front" about what he is offering, and the cover is an interesting philatelic artifact. If if fitted in more closely with my own collecting interests, I would bid on it.
I should mention, too, that Roy has an interesting exhibit of Inflation Period stamps on this web site. It's titled ”German Inflation 1923”
Bob Ingraham
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09:42:54pm
re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
Now I'm really confused.
You mean to tell me that when I'm mailing an envelope and take it into the postal clerk and ask him/her to hand cancel the stamp that it is favoured cancelled even though it's going through the postal system?
I consider First Day Covers put out by many of the Postal Systems to be favoured cancelled.
What about when all stamps were hand cancelled and not put through a machine? Are those favoured cancelled too?
Liz
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09:59:55pm
re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
In my mind "favor cancelled" has no strict philatelic definition -- it is a descriptive term. I would only ever apply it to a cover. It indicates that the cover was cancelled, but never went through the mail. Usually, that means there is no address. If it were addressed, one couldn't tell whether it was mailed or handed back. Some dealers call them "hand-back" covers.
In the case of the stamps on this cover, even an expert couldn't call them CTO if they were soaked off. The experts base their opinions of CTO cancels of this period on knowledge of the cancels that were used in mass producing the CTO's -- the dates and towns they see all the time. It is possible, but unlikely, that this cover was mass produced in sufficient quantity that the date and town would be recognized on the "CTO list". Since the cancels are all placed differently, should these stamps be soaked off and separated, they would be "used" for all intents and purposes.
I believe that the real lesson in Bob's post is not to pay premium prices for material that has unusual circumstances like this unless you are an expert, or wish to become one (and are willing to pay your "dues" along the way.)
Roy
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10:01:24pm
re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
Bob,
not all favor cancels are CTO-- many are hand stamped because they are on larger than an envelope package,at least true in the U.S.
And I imagine a lot of other world post offices werent and still arent automated o the extent of machine canceling all mail.
But one should try to acquire them on cover to show that they were hand stamped,and not mass produced CTOs.
There are of course, the topical collector,who dosent care about the value end of collecting,as long as the stamp pictures the topic they collect.But it is also wise to study your topic,and the stamps involved,for as you say,you may be paying too much for something that is of little value,other than it fits your topic.
Its good to get to know the person,or dealer,you buy or trade from,to insure all persons involved get a fair shake in the transactions.
A study of priceing for CTO stamps will reveal that the cost for them has gone from 50 cents per 500,to 1.25 per 100.They didnt go up in value though,Its because our dollars deflated and dont buy as much as they use to.The cost ratio remains the same.No apparent monetary value.
Most of the price is for the dealer to handle and ship them to the buyer,with hopes of future business from the collector.
TOM
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06:56:36pm
re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
Unless you have an actual cover, you don't know if a stamp really ever was "postally used".
A CTO from a respectable country can have its gum soaked...and appear quite "postally used".
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re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
The discussion about "favored cancels" is the reason why I always posted my self addressed covers, hoping they´s get a SON machine cancel.
A cover like this is doubtful. My own handwritting on a cover addressed to myself, and no return address on the back. On the other hand: Soaking the stamp would make it appear VFU or Superb Used
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
14 Sep 2013
08:12:11pm
re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
These are the definitions I use for different situations.
CTO = Cancelled To Order. Stamps cancelled either during the printing process or immediately thereafter in bulk, before being sold on the open market.
Handback = Favor Canceled = Cancelled at the post office and returned to the collector either to get a clear example of the cancellation or to create a nicely cancelled stamp for the collection.
Controlled mail/cancellation = Stamps used on an envelope or parcel and mailed to ones self or to someone who will return the cover (or the torn corner) to the sender, something that I do with X-mas presents and birthday presents to my grand children to generate postally used examples for my collections. (Similar to Favor Cancelled, but left at the post office on actual mail.)
Philatelic Mail = Usually attractive stamps used by collectors or dealers, often from the discount postage pile, on mail being sent to someone who is thought to appreciate the courtesy.
Remainders, Stamps that were issued for a specific purpose or for a limited time. The remaining inventory is cancelled with the expiration date and sold for pennies, probably by the pound, to dealers.
First Day of Issue stamps or covers ("FDCs") can be postally used if they carry even the simplest message; " .... Here are some stamps you may like. ...." Usually they will carry both an address and a return address, plus routing marks.
Unaddressed FDCs are, in my opinion, merely "Contrived Souvenirs". However they are often collected in large numbers by devoted collectors and sometimes disposed of by the file drawer inch to packet dealers for a pittance.
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re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
So the conclusion I'm getting from this discussion is that the average stamp collector may have a good number of CTOs, favor canceled stamps, or philatelic mail items and not know it if they are collecting postage stamps as opposed to covers.
As there is nothing much one can do about it, except to collect covers, and avoid gummed stamps from questionable issuing countries, why worry about it? Should I shun SON canceled stamps and look for nice smudged cancels instead? I suppose I could shun stamps canceled in major cities, but even that's not a sure thing.
For example, I am pretty sure that in my collection of Swiss semi-postal stamps, which is pretty complete, which is largely used and without gum, there are likely at least a few stamps that fall in the categories mentioned above. There is no way for me to tell really, even if the stamp is SON canceled or canceled in Geneva. I am not going to now start trying to collect all the stamps on cover. I could try an collect all mint, but frankly it doesn't matter to me at this point in my collecting career.
In my Hungarian collection I have quite a few favor canceled covers like the one shown at the top of the post and a few philatelic mail items like PeterG's self addressed cover. I'm glad to have them. They were good enough for the fellow that owned them before me and I am happy with them. I'm also confident they will, over the years, retain the small value that I paid for them.
Was I "fooled" when I bought these items. No. I doubt there was any intention to trick me into buying a few Swiss CTOs in the bunch. That is the risk when you buy stamps off cover, especially with stamps that are pretty rare in genuine postal use. But it is something to think about when you are considering plunking down 25%-50% of CV for used off cover stamps of moderate value. Try to get them cheaper to cover the potential "problems".
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re: These "CTO's" could fool almost anyone....
To me, the key component in the definition of CTO is that it means cancelled to the order of the postal authority. The stamps shown in the initial thread therefore are not CTOs any way you look at them. Moreover, it also means that CTOs usually can be identified. Often, the cancel is printed on the stamp. If not, in many cases postal authorities use specific cancelling devices for CTOs that have never been used for regular postal service (Berlin ZPF, Berlin W8 ab, ac, ad, al, an, ao, z, or zz on GDR). In those cases where postal authorities used cancelling devices that also were used for regular postal duty, the instances tend to be noted in the specialized literature.
Whether favor cancels, handbacks, etc., that is stamps cancelled at the request of the collector using regular, contemporaneous postal cancels, are "inferior" or not, is probably a question of taste. I re-read the Scott catalog foreword and it is quite wishy-washy what the valuation of "used" actually is for. Michel values used stamps as "cancelled with postal cancellation," but occasionally provides a second valuation for stamps "cancelled for philatelic purposes."
The real issue with the cover that started the discussion about ten years ago is that we have a full set of German inflation period official stamps on an unaddressed cover. While I see that a collector could take a bunch of stamps to a post office to get some "nice cancels," the same shouldn't be possible for official stamps, which can only be used by the government entity for which the stamps were issued. But then again: I am not the expert on this and perhaps the German official stamps were available for sale to the general public.
I don't see anything overtly "wrong" with the cancel. The date fits the period of use, and none of the "giveaway" indications of a fake inflation cancel are present (at least none that I can tell.) Certain forms of cancels did not appear until later and cannot be genuine on inflation era stamps. So, it is possible that the cancel is favor, but contemporaneous, but equally likely that it is a backdated fabrication. Due to the turmoil in WWII many genuine cancels got into collectors' hands. Fortunately fairly good literature exists which lists the numerous dubious cancels. Perhaps some other member can check the postmark "Hamburg * 8 r."
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