Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Expert marks, if genuine, increase the value of the stamp.
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Some people care about them deeply but most ignore them if unobtrusive and do not count them against the stamps desirability in my experience. I will say that I prefer not to put them on stamps myself but otherwise am indifferent to them and consider them a historical legacy of stamp collecting.
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The majority that I find are owners marks (stamped) and not experts marks. Also be aware that there are many forged/faked expert marks.
Don
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I have only two stamps with expert marks - one I can't remember (I'll think of it eventually) and the other is an amazing early Batum stamp I bought on SOR. The stamp still had the certificate as well and is one of my favorite pieces. I occasionally mark the back of stamps with a number lightly in pencil - especially if the stamp was difficult to ID. I know I shouldn't do it, but what the heck - it's my collection. I'm still curious whether ultraviolet marking affects value. I know someone who marks his valuable stamps and other possessions that way.
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" I'm still curious whether ultraviolet marking affects value. I know someone who marks his valuable stamps and other possessions that way. "
Ultraviolet markings cannot be seen by the naked eye so if/when your friend sells a stamp how is one supposed to know its been marked if he doesn't tell the buyer!!
For all I know I could have dozens of stamps in my collection that have been ultraviolet marked!
So could YOU!!
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Good stewardship of the material we temporarily possess would be to make no marks on a stamp.
Don
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I am like Don, I prefer no marks on the back of any stamps in my possession and will certainly not place any there myself.
That being said, I have come across many stamps that have ink stamps, as well as pencil or pen signatures, on their backs. A few examples are as follows:
Since Germany was one of my collecting interests, this fellow's stamp has appeared on a number of stamps in my possession. The front of this stamps is show below:
It is one of those fly-speck examples for which the German collecting community as been extremely diligent in ferreting out. In this case, it is a break in the letter "D", with the line missing joining the top and bottom parts of the top left corner of the letter. This "error" is recurring and is thus collected; the value of stamp with the error is much higher than the normal stamp, so thus it had been submitted for an expert opinion to determine whether the stamp was legitimate.
Schlegel is active in providing opinions on stamps, with his website linked below:
https://www.bpp.de/schlegel/index-en.html
He notes on his website that one can request not to have his signature imprint applied to the back of an examined stamp, but in the case of forged overprints or postmarks, or regummed stamps, that the stamp has to be signed as such.
One can often find German material for sale in which the seller states that the stamp has been signed by Schlegel, thus stating that the stamp is legitimate, but I have often wondered about forged expert signatures or imprints and how often they occur.
In looking through Scott 9N1-9N100 issues for West Berlin that I have for sale (about one of each in mint NH condition), a total of seven have Schlegel's stamp on the back. I also have one that has this signature:
Not sure about this one, whether this is an expert marking or something else.
A couple issues for French Equatorial Africa also had imprints and/or signatures on the back. I had two copies of each C9 and C11, with one set having this marking:
While the other set had this combination of markings:
I also had a copy of CB6 that had this marking on the back:
I found a stamp on the back of Austria #144, the only one that I noted among the stamps I have scanned in for sale:
The Batum stamp pictured is the one I sold to Harvey that he previously mentioned. It is rife with imprints on the back (I count four):
My early Canada stamps only had one with an imprint, that being #55:
At least four Diego-Suarez stamps, including the pictured Scott #39, had this imprint:
I have several sets of stamps from an Albanian collection from immediately after WWII where every stamp has a small GS stamp on the back - I assume in this case it is an owner stamp.
Interested to note is that I don't find imprints on British Empire material. A lot of pencil markings for catalog number, etc, but no ink stamps of any kind. That includes my early Canada. So maybe it is more of a thing among the continental Europeans than in Great Britain and North America.
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The "thing", to me, is the equivalent of the cat, pissing on the corner of my couch.
Or, more to the point, like carving your name in the midst of historic Native American petroglyphs. Absolutely disgusting.
-Paul
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For those who may not be familiar with the practice, BPP expertizers orient their imprints in specific ways, to indicate certain qualities. In the example shown by okstamps, the vertical downward lower left corner imprint indicates a MNH perfed stamp.
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"This is in case of theft, but does it affect the value?"
I prefer no marks and for this reason I never put any marks on the backs of stamps myself.
However, pencil marks on the back of used or mint stamps have zero bearing on what I am willing to pay for a stamp. I simply ignore them.
Perforation flaws, creases, thins, stains, rust, not so much!
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I have never sent a stamp off for authentication even though I have a couple stamps that have been done. I am curious about something. If I sent a stamp off to be looked at and it were deemed to be a fake would the stamp be marked in any way to show this? I have read somewhere that occasionally decisions have been reversed. Is the owner of the stamp allowed at this point to say his stamp is for real and ignore the other decision or, to use a sports analogy, does someone have to break the tie? Also if a had a stamp with authentication marks on the back, do I assume the stamp is for real? I assume these marks, and even certificates, can also be faked. Lots of questions here that I am curious about. The only stamp I have an actual certificate for is the Batum stamp I bought from "okstamps". I assume it is my job to make sure the certificate stays with the stamp if it ever changes hands. Just curious about all these things. I am a long time collector but have never sent a stamp off to be "judged"!
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The APS Expert Committee does not mark the back of stamps in any way. It does not make a difference whether the stamp is judged genuine or a forgery, or if the overprint or postmark in a forgery. They used to offer to keep any stamps judged as forgeries in any way as to take them off the market, with the forgery retained in their reference collection; they considered it a donation on your part.
Other experts handle this is their own way. You can click on the link to Schlegel's website to see how he handles the whole signing issue.
The APS could not provide a judgement on the French Equatorial Africa stamps I mentioned in my previous post; they did not have experts competent in that area at that time. I checked around for other experts that advertised as such. I looked at one person's website; he would sign all stamps in pencil unless the stamp was Mint-Never-Hinged. I avoided pursuing using him as an expert because of this.
So if you are going the expert committee route, check into their signing policy first to see how they handle things. And expect a turn-around time of about three months based upon my APS Expert Committee experience.
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Our (stamp collectors) concentration on the condition of the backside of stamps has been a huge detriment to the hobby. It's a belief driven by investors and dealers. It means that stamp hinges have almost disappeared and it makes it harder for kids to join the hobby.
The truth is for a real collector the gum side of the stamp offers little of interest. I guess rarely we see very early issues where different gums were used, but for the most part the only interest is the back of the stamp is for investment opportunities. Very early stamps would probably be far better off having the gum removed as it sometimes offers the chance of the stamp deterioration.
It's not as if we would display our stamps in an album with the backside facing up, is it?
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DannyS, you make a damn good point and I agree with you 100% - the front of the stamp is where the interest should be!!! Way too much time worrying about the back of the stamp!
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I think that folks should collect any way and anything they want; we should encourage and welcome diverse collecting.
In my opinion folks wanting stamps in ‘mint, post office condition’ is no different than a person wanting an original antique or collector car that is in showroom condition, someone collecting uncirculated coin, or a toy collector seeking a toy that is in the original box and never opened.
Don
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YYYYUUUPPP!
Each to their own way of collecting.
IF you want to coerce me to your way of thinking:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XeDvKqI4E
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Hello okstamps,
Your 8 Pfg Hindenburg stamp is nicely stamped by herr Schlegel.
This was very common in Germany, but now-a-days the will give you a "KURZ BEFUND" or a "ATTEST"
ATTEST
KURZBEFUND
The place of those imprints of the BPP experts are specific for the stamp.
Look at my post here :
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=23169#171068
I do not know how other countries do this but the link above is for german stamps.
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Hello okstamps,
your second is signed by Ing Becker.
But this this certification mark would be forged 1000 times.
Becker was expelled from the BPP with immediate effect at the general meeting on November 22, 1970, because despite repeated requests to cease his testing activities, he had continued to carry out serious incorrect tests, especially the overprint stamps from Berlin.
All inspections before November 1970 would have to be inspected again.
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"I have never sent a stamp off for authentication even though I have a couple stamps that have been done. I am curious about something. If I sent a stamp off to be looked at and it were deemed to be a fake would the stamp be marked in any way to show this? I have read somewhere that occasionally decisions have been reversed. Is the owner of the stamp allowed at this point to say his stamp is for real and ignore the other decision or, to use a sports analogy, does someone have to break the tie? Also if a had a stamp with authentication marks on the back, do I assume the stamp is for real? I assume these marks, and even certificates, can also be faked. Lots of questions here that I am curious about. The only stamp I have an actual certificate for is the Batum stamp I bought from "okstamps". I assume it is my job to make sure the certificate stays with the stamp if it ever changes hands. Just curious about all these things. I am a long time collector but have never sent a stamp off to be "judged"!"
I have told this before in, I think, The GERMANY section.
Everything can be faked, nowadays, because the techniques have become much better.
And remember, the more expensive the more chance of counterfeiting.
So nothing is certain, but certificates and other means do help to give the collector a certain degree of certainty.
And this is my example from a stamp that was first certified as a good one
and later was certified as false.
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05:02:23pm
If I'm sorting through a bunch of stamps sometimes I will put the Scott's number very lightly on the back with pencil. I know this is a no-no because getting rid of the mark can damage the gum, if mint, or smudge, if used. I have a couple stamps, not many, that have been marked on the back by authenticators in the past. I assume this practice was accepted and I would never get rid of the marks since it probably adds to the legitimacy of the stamp. Are these marks accepted or do some people try to get rid of them? I heard of one person who used to mark his stamps with marks that only show up under black light. This is in case of theft, but does it affect the value?
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re: marks on back of stamps?
Expert marks, if genuine, increase the value of the stamp.
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re: marks on back of stamps?
Some people care about them deeply but most ignore them if unobtrusive and do not count them against the stamps desirability in my experience. I will say that I prefer not to put them on stamps myself but otherwise am indifferent to them and consider them a historical legacy of stamp collecting.
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re: marks on back of stamps?
The majority that I find are owners marks (stamped) and not experts marks. Also be aware that there are many forged/faked expert marks.
Don
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11:45:22am
re: marks on back of stamps?
I have only two stamps with expert marks - one I can't remember (I'll think of it eventually) and the other is an amazing early Batum stamp I bought on SOR. The stamp still had the certificate as well and is one of my favorite pieces. I occasionally mark the back of stamps with a number lightly in pencil - especially if the stamp was difficult to ID. I know I shouldn't do it, but what the heck - it's my collection. I'm still curious whether ultraviolet marking affects value. I know someone who marks his valuable stamps and other possessions that way.
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Auctions - Approvals
re: marks on back of stamps?
" I'm still curious whether ultraviolet marking affects value. I know someone who marks his valuable stamps and other possessions that way. "
Ultraviolet markings cannot be seen by the naked eye so if/when your friend sells a stamp how is one supposed to know its been marked if he doesn't tell the buyer!!
For all I know I could have dozens of stamps in my collection that have been ultraviolet marked!
So could YOU!!
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re: marks on back of stamps?
Good stewardship of the material we temporarily possess would be to make no marks on a stamp.
Don
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re: marks on back of stamps?
I am like Don, I prefer no marks on the back of any stamps in my possession and will certainly not place any there myself.
That being said, I have come across many stamps that have ink stamps, as well as pencil or pen signatures, on their backs. A few examples are as follows:
Since Germany was one of my collecting interests, this fellow's stamp has appeared on a number of stamps in my possession. The front of this stamps is show below:
It is one of those fly-speck examples for which the German collecting community as been extremely diligent in ferreting out. In this case, it is a break in the letter "D", with the line missing joining the top and bottom parts of the top left corner of the letter. This "error" is recurring and is thus collected; the value of stamp with the error is much higher than the normal stamp, so thus it had been submitted for an expert opinion to determine whether the stamp was legitimate.
Schlegel is active in providing opinions on stamps, with his website linked below:
https://www.bpp.de/schlegel/index-en.html
He notes on his website that one can request not to have his signature imprint applied to the back of an examined stamp, but in the case of forged overprints or postmarks, or regummed stamps, that the stamp has to be signed as such.
One can often find German material for sale in which the seller states that the stamp has been signed by Schlegel, thus stating that the stamp is legitimate, but I have often wondered about forged expert signatures or imprints and how often they occur.
In looking through Scott 9N1-9N100 issues for West Berlin that I have for sale (about one of each in mint NH condition), a total of seven have Schlegel's stamp on the back. I also have one that has this signature:
Not sure about this one, whether this is an expert marking or something else.
A couple issues for French Equatorial Africa also had imprints and/or signatures on the back. I had two copies of each C9 and C11, with one set having this marking:
While the other set had this combination of markings:
I also had a copy of CB6 that had this marking on the back:
I found a stamp on the back of Austria #144, the only one that I noted among the stamps I have scanned in for sale:
The Batum stamp pictured is the one I sold to Harvey that he previously mentioned. It is rife with imprints on the back (I count four):
My early Canada stamps only had one with an imprint, that being #55:
At least four Diego-Suarez stamps, including the pictured Scott #39, had this imprint:
I have several sets of stamps from an Albanian collection from immediately after WWII where every stamp has a small GS stamp on the back - I assume in this case it is an owner stamp.
Interested to note is that I don't find imprints on British Empire material. A lot of pencil markings for catalog number, etc, but no ink stamps of any kind. That includes my early Canada. So maybe it is more of a thing among the continental Europeans than in Great Britain and North America.
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09:20:22am
re: marks on back of stamps?
The "thing", to me, is the equivalent of the cat, pissing on the corner of my couch.
Or, more to the point, like carving your name in the midst of historic Native American petroglyphs. Absolutely disgusting.
-Paul
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re: marks on back of stamps?
For those who may not be familiar with the practice, BPP expertizers orient their imprints in specific ways, to indicate certain qualities. In the example shown by okstamps, the vertical downward lower left corner imprint indicates a MNH perfed stamp.
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Approvals
re: marks on back of stamps?
"This is in case of theft, but does it affect the value?"
I prefer no marks and for this reason I never put any marks on the backs of stamps myself.
However, pencil marks on the back of used or mint stamps have zero bearing on what I am willing to pay for a stamp. I simply ignore them.
Perforation flaws, creases, thins, stains, rust, not so much!
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01:08:20pm
re: marks on back of stamps?
I have never sent a stamp off for authentication even though I have a couple stamps that have been done. I am curious about something. If I sent a stamp off to be looked at and it were deemed to be a fake would the stamp be marked in any way to show this? I have read somewhere that occasionally decisions have been reversed. Is the owner of the stamp allowed at this point to say his stamp is for real and ignore the other decision or, to use a sports analogy, does someone have to break the tie? Also if a had a stamp with authentication marks on the back, do I assume the stamp is for real? I assume these marks, and even certificates, can also be faked. Lots of questions here that I am curious about. The only stamp I have an actual certificate for is the Batum stamp I bought from "okstamps". I assume it is my job to make sure the certificate stays with the stamp if it ever changes hands. Just curious about all these things. I am a long time collector but have never sent a stamp off to be "judged"!
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re: marks on back of stamps?
The APS Expert Committee does not mark the back of stamps in any way. It does not make a difference whether the stamp is judged genuine or a forgery, or if the overprint or postmark in a forgery. They used to offer to keep any stamps judged as forgeries in any way as to take them off the market, with the forgery retained in their reference collection; they considered it a donation on your part.
Other experts handle this is their own way. You can click on the link to Schlegel's website to see how he handles the whole signing issue.
The APS could not provide a judgement on the French Equatorial Africa stamps I mentioned in my previous post; they did not have experts competent in that area at that time. I checked around for other experts that advertised as such. I looked at one person's website; he would sign all stamps in pencil unless the stamp was Mint-Never-Hinged. I avoided pursuing using him as an expert because of this.
So if you are going the expert committee route, check into their signing policy first to see how they handle things. And expect a turn-around time of about three months based upon my APS Expert Committee experience.
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re: marks on back of stamps?
Our (stamp collectors) concentration on the condition of the backside of stamps has been a huge detriment to the hobby. It's a belief driven by investors and dealers. It means that stamp hinges have almost disappeared and it makes it harder for kids to join the hobby.
The truth is for a real collector the gum side of the stamp offers little of interest. I guess rarely we see very early issues where different gums were used, but for the most part the only interest is the back of the stamp is for investment opportunities. Very early stamps would probably be far better off having the gum removed as it sometimes offers the chance of the stamp deterioration.
It's not as if we would display our stamps in an album with the backside facing up, is it?
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08:08:46pm
re: marks on back of stamps?
DannyS, you make a damn good point and I agree with you 100% - the front of the stamp is where the interest should be!!! Way too much time worrying about the back of the stamp!
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re: marks on back of stamps?
I think that folks should collect any way and anything they want; we should encourage and welcome diverse collecting.
In my opinion folks wanting stamps in ‘mint, post office condition’ is no different than a person wanting an original antique or collector car that is in showroom condition, someone collecting uncirculated coin, or a toy collector seeking a toy that is in the original box and never opened.
Don
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Auctions - Approvals
re: marks on back of stamps?
YYYYUUUPPP!
Each to their own way of collecting.
IF you want to coerce me to your way of thinking:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XeDvKqI4E
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this post
re: marks on back of stamps?
Hello okstamps,
Your 8 Pfg Hindenburg stamp is nicely stamped by herr Schlegel.
This was very common in Germany, but now-a-days the will give you a "KURZ BEFUND" or a "ATTEST"
ATTEST
KURZBEFUND
The place of those imprints of the BPP experts are specific for the stamp.
Look at my post here :
https://stamporama.com/discboard/disc_main.php?action=20&id=23169#171068
I do not know how other countries do this but the link above is for german stamps.
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this post
re: marks on back of stamps?
Hello okstamps,
your second is signed by Ing Becker.
But this this certification mark would be forged 1000 times.
Becker was expelled from the BPP with immediate effect at the general meeting on November 22, 1970, because despite repeated requests to cease his testing activities, he had continued to carry out serious incorrect tests, especially the overprint stamps from Berlin.
All inspections before November 1970 would have to be inspected again.
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re: marks on back of stamps?
"I have never sent a stamp off for authentication even though I have a couple stamps that have been done. I am curious about something. If I sent a stamp off to be looked at and it were deemed to be a fake would the stamp be marked in any way to show this? I have read somewhere that occasionally decisions have been reversed. Is the owner of the stamp allowed at this point to say his stamp is for real and ignore the other decision or, to use a sports analogy, does someone have to break the tie? Also if a had a stamp with authentication marks on the back, do I assume the stamp is for real? I assume these marks, and even certificates, can also be faked. Lots of questions here that I am curious about. The only stamp I have an actual certificate for is the Batum stamp I bought from "okstamps". I assume it is my job to make sure the certificate stays with the stamp if it ever changes hands. Just curious about all these things. I am a long time collector but have never sent a stamp off to be "judged"!"
I have told this before in, I think, The GERMANY section.
Everything can be faked, nowadays, because the techniques have become much better.
And remember, the more expensive the more chance of counterfeiting.
So nothing is certain, but certificates and other means do help to give the collector a certain degree of certainty.
And this is my example from a stamp that was first certified as a good one
and later was certified as false.
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