I know of no archive or library that uses sheet protectors for the reason you state. Air circulation is desirable for archival purposes and the objective is to prevent the formation of
microclimates around the pages. Direct contact by using mounts is irrelevant, all paper will constantly exchanges gases and moistures with the surrounding atmosphere. If the surrounding environment is good (ie. cool, dry and stable storage environment is paramount; temperatures should be held at a constant 70°F with a relative humidity held between 30% and 50%) then your stamps and pages will do well.
Don
51Studebaker - Sorry I must have phrased that badly - I see people use the sheet protectors for their stamps and I thought they might cause problems because they prevent air from getting to the stamps. As you say air circulation is desirable.
Paper ‘rust’ (or foxing) itself is confusing, even among the scientists and experts. The term ‘rust’ is used to describe two things; a fungus and/or actual metallic elements in paper which literally rust. Both are accurate and both have multiple theories on where it comes from, environmental conditions that may contribute to it, and how to prevent it.
For example consider ‘where does it come from’. There is some evidence that fungus ‘rust’ spores may come from the paper pulp itself, lying dormant for years before growing and putting brown spots on the paper. If the context is metallic ‘rust’ some believe that the metallic particles are in the paper pulp while other believe that it is from the water in the paper making process. These are all probably true. How you deal with it depends on properly IDing the issue; this is a complex subject.
Most agree that humidity and/or poor environmental storage conditions can contribute to either types of ‘rust/foxing’. Sheet protectors, and the microclimate they make around each album page, are a double edge sword when it comes to environmental storage conditions.
Scenario #1 – Your put a sheet of low moisture content paper into the sheet protector and your environmental conditions are good. Suddenly for a day or two your environmental turns bad and the room humidity jumps up to 90%. The sheet protector maintains a microclimate of lower humidity and thereby helps.
Scenario #2 – Your put a sheet of higher moisture content paper into the sheet protector and your environmental condition are good. The sheet protector maintains a microclimate of higher humidity and thereby hurts.
Libraries and archives do not use sheet protectors because the most feasible approach to paper conservation is to control the entire environment. If they have shelves full of sheet protectors and the humidity jumped up for a few a few days, they would have to pull every page out to let the pages dry quickly and not stay in high humidity microclimate inside the sheet protectors. Air circulation is good because it helps maintain a good environment, sheet protectors are not good for air circulation.
You can do research online if you search on ‘paper archiving’. Asking collectors will get you anecdotal opinions; nothing wrong with that but be leery of any anecdotes which are posted as factual. How many collectors who use sheet protector check the moisture content of the pages? And if the moisture content of the pages was high, would they be willing to remove them all and allow them to dry out before putting them back?
This is why environmental conditions is so important in any discussion about paper archiving and why it is so 'location dependent'. Using cheap 'acid free' paper or using sheet protector are things that you can get way with if you are very careful (or lucky) about maintaining a great environmental. But cheap 'acid free' paper or sheet protectors can be a big problem in some cases.
Don
An interesting topic.
I must admit, I keep my personal cover collections on 8.5x11 paper in top loading sheet protectors in 3 ring binders. I don't use the sheet protectors for the purpose of extra protection, but for the convenience of storing the pages. It allows me to remove pages to put into exhibit frames, to flip through pages without risk of covers popping out of the corner mounts etc. It also allows me full use of the page, without having to allow for 3 punch holes.
Are you familiar with any other storage method that allows the use of unpunched 8.5x11 pages that still allows the easy perusal of the collection?
Roy
I use sheet protectors to protect the sheets and stamps when handled. Finger prints and other hand oils damage stamps much more than you think.
I also like them from a functional stand point since 3 ring binders do not allow the storage of stamps in the seams, like the old 2 post binders do. And with printed Steiner pages, I find I am using more and more 3 ring binders.
Here you can always put extra stamps within the sheet protector, a very handy way of working on a collection while you accumulate, separate duplicates etc. You can insert small pieces of paper indicating a purchased item (avoid duplicate purchases) or even hints to a buyer's price for comparison, prior to purchase.
They also offer significant protection for the stamps on album pages, like mounts would but at a much more affordable cost. Think about it, you can purchase a box of 220-225 sheet protectors for just $15 on Amazon.
So far I have never seen any rust or other damage to stamps housed in sheet protectors, and I have used them for 10 years or more. Longer term, who knows...my heirs will have to determine. But for now they have become an every day's necessity.
rrr..
When I bid on an item I go to my album and put a light "B" where the stamp goes and go to my want list and put a neat line through the number. If I win the stamp I remove it from my want list and go to my album and change the "B" to a check mark. This seems to work well. If for some reason the stamp doesn't arrive I put it back in my want list and remove the check mark from the album. I have had a few problems when sellers on SoR have cancelled my order when I failed to find enough items. Not a huge problem, if I found it once I can find it again!! So far my system has kept me from double buying an object.
Edit: I know this is off topic, but I'm just commenting on the fact that RRR does something to prevent buying a stamp twice. Please ignore this comment, unless it is of help, and return to the original thread's purpose.
RRR,
The trouble with those $15 sheet protectors is acid. You really should use materials that are certified as acid free, or better yet as Archival quality.
David
Exact David. Very important
Still $15 a box, Amazon delivered to your home, and now with 225 sheets!
rrr...
...will not shrink, warp, discolor or deteriorate and is completely non-injurious to stamps...
Don
"...will not shrink, warp, discolor or deteriorate and is completely non-injurious to stamps..."
The words ‘acid free’ and ‘archival’ are marketing terms and have no science or evidence based data behind them, they are used to fool consumers. From the Society of American Archivists
"The use of 'archival' in commercial advertising to describe products suitable for materials and implying an infinite life span has made this use of the word nearly meaningless; some products so described would never be used by most archivists for such purposes."
I guess once more we have a difference in opinion. Some want their philatelic products to last forever. I am quite satisfied with 15-30 years. This kind of discussion always comes back here with a huge bridge between the "conservative purists and the techno adventurists".
We had a similar discussion here about 3M 811 archival, photo grade removable tape, and now about Sheet protectors. Anything plastic is hated by some, remnants of the debacle caused by scotch tape some centuries ago.
Are mounts really any safer than sheets, or for that matter the plastic strips used today in stock books? Or even glassine. I have old stock books showing the damage caused over a long time. Dust and humidity I suppose even in a closed stock book? (look at the edges of some of the stamps too)
How long do you expect stamps in your collection to weather the passage of time, of temperature cycling, of pollution, humidity, etc...
For me, I am quite satisfied with experimenting, and making use of what modern technology has to offer.
And don't bring a regular hinge in my sight, please, as they may be bacteria laden saliva cesspools, with God knows what other chemicals that could harm my precious 10c stamps !
Archival photo safe acid free ISO std 18916 will do fine for me! Even if it is plastic. Yes PLASTICS... (remember Mrs Robinson in the movie?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
rrr....
I am an engineer and I currently work on a NIH funded medical research team. As such, I do indeed emphasize accurate data and evidence based research. Through out my career I made decisions that if wrong, would cause significant harm.
But the bigger issue for me is that communities like this reach many people who believe what they read. This is a huge issue right now in our society, social media (for right or wrong) has become the place many folks get their information. Because of this I think it is important to keep in mind that others may be risking their family heirlooms based upon antidotal opinions.
Put another way, is anyone here willing to say, “I use sheet protectors and am so sure that they are safe that I am willing to cover the cost if anyone takes this recommendation and damages their material”? Of course not, we all have different environmental conditions and situations. But this does not stop us from sitting in the peanut gallery and tossing out our recommendations.
I agree that we absolutely need people who are willing to press forward and experiment; this is how our knowledgebase grows and we become wiser. But we also should foster good stewardship of the material that we temporary guardians of and social media communities like this one play a critical role in this.
This is not a small group of folks in a corner of a stamp club meeting chatting. In that situation we can read the other people when we say something and have the opportunity to clarify or otherwise ensure that what we say is taken the way we meant it. Social media is great in a lot of ways but also has some significant shortcomings, and folks taking opinion as facts is one of them.
Don
Don, I don't disagree with what you say. But everything has a cost and a benefit, and we are often (when we experiment using double blind scientific methodology, or even unscientific experimentation) making educated guesses...and often statistical in nature. I would be hesitant to recommend anything if I was going to judge any and all risks as unacceptable.
And each one of us has a unique risk profile, as well as a different bend to scientific data and interpretation.
Today we are making educated guesses on the benefits of Covid-19 vaccines with very limited knowledge of the potential long term costs. Here (for me) the risks are certainly worth taking.
Dare I say that they are equally acceptable to me as far as the use of both sheet protectors and 3M 811 tape?
As far as using modern materials in our conservative risk averse hobby, I for one do not hesitate, although I do keep a watchful eye on what I do.
You are right, no manufacturer is going to vouch for ANY product as you suggest. It does not make them safe, and even if they did, they could pull a chapter 11 protection when proven wrong, as many have in the past.
On the other hand I don't have many $1000 stamps to protect forever, and as far as agonizing over the safety, for a 10c stamp over 100 years...I could not care less. But then, what is an acceptable cutoff?
The risks of misinforming the public at large in social networks are huge, and I agree that we share as scientists a responsibility for our words. But that does not mean we stay silent? And are the standards that we often guide our life with subject to constant question and criticism? Take ISO std 18916. Good enough for me. Possibly not to someone else, but on what basis? And in comparison to what?
We are sliding away from the topic of discussion. Sheet protectors, some risks maybe, worth it, maybe too. For me it is a yes.
rrr...
Most products are generally safe when used reasonably. It can be a combination of factors with overall storage conditions (temperature/humidity/sunlight) as the likely primary accelerant leading to issues.
This can apply to album paper, stamp mounts, hinges, page protectors, binders, etc. There are no guarantees with any of these products.
Just imagine if there was a warning label on stamp hinge packages that usage can cause damage to stamps by changing a NH stamp to hinged.
"… generally safe when used reasonably…"
I returned to the hobby a couple of years ago and after sorting out an inherited accumulation I am about to start mounting stamps in a album. I am going to use Steiner pages.
My question to experienced collectors is: If I mount using a product such as Hawid or Lighthouse mounts then store the page in one of those plastic protector sheets will this cause rust spots or foxing. I am an ex antique bookseller and I thought airing (in other words actually opening the books instead of having them sit on shelves)was a preventative measure against foxing. Has anyone had problems with the plastic protector sheets and rust?
I would like to hear of others opinions
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
I know of no archive or library that uses sheet protectors for the reason you state. Air circulation is desirable for archival purposes and the objective is to prevent the formation of
microclimates around the pages. Direct contact by using mounts is irrelevant, all paper will constantly exchanges gases and moistures with the surrounding atmosphere. If the surrounding environment is good (ie. cool, dry and stable storage environment is paramount; temperatures should be held at a constant 70°F with a relative humidity held between 30% and 50%) then your stamps and pages will do well.
Don
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
51Studebaker - Sorry I must have phrased that badly - I see people use the sheet protectors for their stamps and I thought they might cause problems because they prevent air from getting to the stamps. As you say air circulation is desirable.
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
Paper ‘rust’ (or foxing) itself is confusing, even among the scientists and experts. The term ‘rust’ is used to describe two things; a fungus and/or actual metallic elements in paper which literally rust. Both are accurate and both have multiple theories on where it comes from, environmental conditions that may contribute to it, and how to prevent it.
For example consider ‘where does it come from’. There is some evidence that fungus ‘rust’ spores may come from the paper pulp itself, lying dormant for years before growing and putting brown spots on the paper. If the context is metallic ‘rust’ some believe that the metallic particles are in the paper pulp while other believe that it is from the water in the paper making process. These are all probably true. How you deal with it depends on properly IDing the issue; this is a complex subject.
Most agree that humidity and/or poor environmental storage conditions can contribute to either types of ‘rust/foxing’. Sheet protectors, and the microclimate they make around each album page, are a double edge sword when it comes to environmental storage conditions.
Scenario #1 – Your put a sheet of low moisture content paper into the sheet protector and your environmental conditions are good. Suddenly for a day or two your environmental turns bad and the room humidity jumps up to 90%. The sheet protector maintains a microclimate of lower humidity and thereby helps.
Scenario #2 – Your put a sheet of higher moisture content paper into the sheet protector and your environmental condition are good. The sheet protector maintains a microclimate of higher humidity and thereby hurts.
Libraries and archives do not use sheet protectors because the most feasible approach to paper conservation is to control the entire environment. If they have shelves full of sheet protectors and the humidity jumped up for a few a few days, they would have to pull every page out to let the pages dry quickly and not stay in high humidity microclimate inside the sheet protectors. Air circulation is good because it helps maintain a good environment, sheet protectors are not good for air circulation.
You can do research online if you search on ‘paper archiving’. Asking collectors will get you anecdotal opinions; nothing wrong with that but be leery of any anecdotes which are posted as factual. How many collectors who use sheet protector check the moisture content of the pages? And if the moisture content of the pages was high, would they be willing to remove them all and allow them to dry out before putting them back?
This is why environmental conditions is so important in any discussion about paper archiving and why it is so 'location dependent'. Using cheap 'acid free' paper or using sheet protector are things that you can get way with if you are very careful (or lucky) about maintaining a great environmental. But cheap 'acid free' paper or sheet protectors can be a big problem in some cases.
Don
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
An interesting topic.
I must admit, I keep my personal cover collections on 8.5x11 paper in top loading sheet protectors in 3 ring binders. I don't use the sheet protectors for the purpose of extra protection, but for the convenience of storing the pages. It allows me to remove pages to put into exhibit frames, to flip through pages without risk of covers popping out of the corner mounts etc. It also allows me full use of the page, without having to allow for 3 punch holes.
Are you familiar with any other storage method that allows the use of unpunched 8.5x11 pages that still allows the easy perusal of the collection?
Roy
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
I use sheet protectors to protect the sheets and stamps when handled. Finger prints and other hand oils damage stamps much more than you think.
I also like them from a functional stand point since 3 ring binders do not allow the storage of stamps in the seams, like the old 2 post binders do. And with printed Steiner pages, I find I am using more and more 3 ring binders.
Here you can always put extra stamps within the sheet protector, a very handy way of working on a collection while you accumulate, separate duplicates etc. You can insert small pieces of paper indicating a purchased item (avoid duplicate purchases) or even hints to a buyer's price for comparison, prior to purchase.
They also offer significant protection for the stamps on album pages, like mounts would but at a much more affordable cost. Think about it, you can purchase a box of 220-225 sheet protectors for just $15 on Amazon.
So far I have never seen any rust or other damage to stamps housed in sheet protectors, and I have used them for 10 years or more. Longer term, who knows...my heirs will have to determine. But for now they have become an every day's necessity.
rrr..
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
When I bid on an item I go to my album and put a light "B" where the stamp goes and go to my want list and put a neat line through the number. If I win the stamp I remove it from my want list and go to my album and change the "B" to a check mark. This seems to work well. If for some reason the stamp doesn't arrive I put it back in my want list and remove the check mark from the album. I have had a few problems when sellers on SoR have cancelled my order when I failed to find enough items. Not a huge problem, if I found it once I can find it again!! So far my system has kept me from double buying an object.
Edit: I know this is off topic, but I'm just commenting on the fact that RRR does something to prevent buying a stamp twice. Please ignore this comment, unless it is of help, and return to the original thread's purpose.
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
RRR,
The trouble with those $15 sheet protectors is acid. You really should use materials that are certified as acid free, or better yet as Archival quality.
David
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
Exact David. Very important
Still $15 a box, Amazon delivered to your home, and now with 225 sheets!
rrr...
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
...will not shrink, warp, discolor or deteriorate and is completely non-injurious to stamps...
Don
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
"...will not shrink, warp, discolor or deteriorate and is completely non-injurious to stamps..."
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
The words ‘acid free’ and ‘archival’ are marketing terms and have no science or evidence based data behind them, they are used to fool consumers. From the Society of American Archivists
"The use of 'archival' in commercial advertising to describe products suitable for materials and implying an infinite life span has made this use of the word nearly meaningless; some products so described would never be used by most archivists for such purposes."
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
I guess once more we have a difference in opinion. Some want their philatelic products to last forever. I am quite satisfied with 15-30 years. This kind of discussion always comes back here with a huge bridge between the "conservative purists and the techno adventurists".
We had a similar discussion here about 3M 811 archival, photo grade removable tape, and now about Sheet protectors. Anything plastic is hated by some, remnants of the debacle caused by scotch tape some centuries ago.
Are mounts really any safer than sheets, or for that matter the plastic strips used today in stock books? Or even glassine. I have old stock books showing the damage caused over a long time. Dust and humidity I suppose even in a closed stock book? (look at the edges of some of the stamps too)
How long do you expect stamps in your collection to weather the passage of time, of temperature cycling, of pollution, humidity, etc...
For me, I am quite satisfied with experimenting, and making use of what modern technology has to offer.
And don't bring a regular hinge in my sight, please, as they may be bacteria laden saliva cesspools, with God knows what other chemicals that could harm my precious 10c stamps !
Archival photo safe acid free ISO std 18916 will do fine for me! Even if it is plastic. Yes PLASTICS... (remember Mrs Robinson in the movie?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
rrr....
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
I am an engineer and I currently work on a NIH funded medical research team. As such, I do indeed emphasize accurate data and evidence based research. Through out my career I made decisions that if wrong, would cause significant harm.
But the bigger issue for me is that communities like this reach many people who believe what they read. This is a huge issue right now in our society, social media (for right or wrong) has become the place many folks get their information. Because of this I think it is important to keep in mind that others may be risking their family heirlooms based upon antidotal opinions.
Put another way, is anyone here willing to say, “I use sheet protectors and am so sure that they are safe that I am willing to cover the cost if anyone takes this recommendation and damages their material”? Of course not, we all have different environmental conditions and situations. But this does not stop us from sitting in the peanut gallery and tossing out our recommendations.
I agree that we absolutely need people who are willing to press forward and experiment; this is how our knowledgebase grows and we become wiser. But we also should foster good stewardship of the material that we temporary guardians of and social media communities like this one play a critical role in this.
This is not a small group of folks in a corner of a stamp club meeting chatting. In that situation we can read the other people when we say something and have the opportunity to clarify or otherwise ensure that what we say is taken the way we meant it. Social media is great in a lot of ways but also has some significant shortcomings, and folks taking opinion as facts is one of them.
Don
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
Don, I don't disagree with what you say. But everything has a cost and a benefit, and we are often (when we experiment using double blind scientific methodology, or even unscientific experimentation) making educated guesses...and often statistical in nature. I would be hesitant to recommend anything if I was going to judge any and all risks as unacceptable.
And each one of us has a unique risk profile, as well as a different bend to scientific data and interpretation.
Today we are making educated guesses on the benefits of Covid-19 vaccines with very limited knowledge of the potential long term costs. Here (for me) the risks are certainly worth taking.
Dare I say that they are equally acceptable to me as far as the use of both sheet protectors and 3M 811 tape?
As far as using modern materials in our conservative risk averse hobby, I for one do not hesitate, although I do keep a watchful eye on what I do.
You are right, no manufacturer is going to vouch for ANY product as you suggest. It does not make them safe, and even if they did, they could pull a chapter 11 protection when proven wrong, as many have in the past.
On the other hand I don't have many $1000 stamps to protect forever, and as far as agonizing over the safety, for a 10c stamp over 100 years...I could not care less. But then, what is an acceptable cutoff?
The risks of misinforming the public at large in social networks are huge, and I agree that we share as scientists a responsibility for our words. But that does not mean we stay silent? And are the standards that we often guide our life with subject to constant question and criticism? Take ISO std 18916. Good enough for me. Possibly not to someone else, but on what basis? And in comparison to what?
We are sliding away from the topic of discussion. Sheet protectors, some risks maybe, worth it, maybe too. For me it is a yes.
rrr...
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
Most products are generally safe when used reasonably. It can be a combination of factors with overall storage conditions (temperature/humidity/sunlight) as the likely primary accelerant leading to issues.
This can apply to album paper, stamp mounts, hinges, page protectors, binders, etc. There are no guarantees with any of these products.
Just imagine if there was a warning label on stamp hinge packages that usage can cause damage to stamps by changing a NH stamp to hinged.
re: Do stamps mounted plastic protector sheetshave a problem with rust?
"… generally safe when used reasonably…"