Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
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Seeing as CTO stands for canceled to order, they are not postage stamps.
But you collect what appeals to you. Just keep in mind,they have little if no monetary values,as far as the "stamp" collector is concerned.
But,, there is a difference between collections.
Most "stamp" collectors are "postage" stamp collectors.
CTOs are stamps. And can be collected as such,as long as you understand that they are not stamps that were intended to be used as postage payments for mail delivery, but only as pretty pictures for the mass sales to dealers as filler stock, to sweeten an otherwise unappealing selection of regular stamps, and were/are produced as an alternate source of income for the countries produceing them.
Cinderellas are not postage stamps,but many stamp colletors include them in their collections,more often than CTO stamps.
Christmas seals and other nonprofit orgs. produce cinderellas, which are not postage stamps, wont pay for delivery of mail, but are coveted by many collectors when found used on cover(in combination with real postage stamps) where the cancelation ties the cinderella to the cover.
I imagine if all those CTO stamps were added to regular mail covers in the same manner,they would be a better collectable. As an item by itself,the CTO is,as said by many, "just so much wallpaper".
The only thing worth while I've heard said about CTOs,is they are an inexpensive tool for educational uses. In grade schools,for history,geography,politics,monetary systems,and art.
There is always a use for everything,all is not a loss.
TOM
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Thank you, Tom. That was most enlightening. I'm long out of grade school, but still have an insatiable appetite for history, geography, politics, monetary systems, and art. So my 1000 stamps of Czechoslovakia will be put to good use. In any case, I just love looking at them!
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I need to add this. CTO Australian stamps for most issues (i.e., the official CTO cancellation for full gum, Melbourne cancel Kangaroo and Geo V issues issued in Specimen packs) are worth a huge premium over postally used issues.
CTO is a term most commonly used for Eastern European issues distributed from the early 1950's to around 1990ish. It is not a universal term, and I would suggest that it, like many other terms, does not have a "universal" meaning.
A CTO 5/- Sydney Harbour Bridge stamp is still worth about $A300. it is certainly not worthless.
Norm
(Message edited by fromdownunder on January 20, 2009)
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From the Ask Phil Philatelic Glossary: "Canceled to Order (CTO): stamps cancelled by postal authorities without having been used for postage; they are less desirable than stamps which have seen postal duty."
From the 2004 edition of the Scott Classic Specialized Catalogue of Stamps & Covers -- 1840-1940: Some countries...issue stamps cancelled-to-order (CTO), either in sheets with original gum or stuck onto pieces of paper of envelopes and cancelled. Such CTO items generally are worth less than postally used stamps. In cases where the CTO material is more prevalent in the marketplace than postally used examples, the catalogue value relate to the CTO examples, with postally used examples noted as premium items. Most CTOs can be detected the presence of gum. However, as the CTO practice goes back at least to 1885, the gum inevitably has been soaked off some stamps so they could pass as postally used. The normally applied postmarks usually differ slightly from standard postmarks, and specialists are able to tell the difference. Whenb applied individually to envelops by philatelically minded persons, CTO material is known as favor cancelled and generally sells at large discounts."
The same catalogue notes that most used examples of Tannu Tuva Nos. 1-92 and C1-C18 on the market are CTOs and are priced in the catalogue as CTOs. I note used CTO values ranging from $1 to $300.
My experience of purchasing WWII stamps of the Soviet Union and North Vietnamese stamps is that CTOs are far more common than postally used copies, and even then can cost a good deal of money.
A specialized North Vietnam catalogue that I have notes that postally stamps issued by the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam, 1945-1946, are not known to have been postally used, yet they command good prices. I bought some recently from Lee Payette in the Stamporama Auction, and had to fight for them. The same is true of all of the issues of the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam, more commonly known as the Vietcong or VC to us Vietnam veterans. While these items may not have been postally used, they nevertheless reflect the politics of their times and are valuable postal artifacts even if some collectors prefer not to call them stamps.
Bob
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I've always thought the whole CTO debate is a great example of why it is so important to follow the old maxim and "collect what you want." CTOs do have a few good points. As an alternative to postally used stamps, they are frequently in near perfect condition with unobtrusive cancels. As an alternative to unused stamps, they are frequently inexpensive because the issuing government was never obliged to actually perform a service. They sometimes provide the only affordable way to have an example of a particular issue for your collection. In my opinion, provided a person understands the nature of CTOs, then collecting them is a perfectly valid philatelic pursuit.
Unfortunately I think that the mass production of CTOs that Norm referred to has done some damage to the hobby. Many young and otherwise new collectors bought these stamps in inexpensive (and sometimes not-so-inexpensive) packets and worked hard to build collections only to be told later that their stamps are worthless and uncollectible. Probably not the best situation for bringing new folks into the fold!
Ralph
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There are CTOs and there are printed cancellations - I have seen quite a few from Sand Dune countries and even East Germany with the cancellations printed on the stamp design. These are available as CTOs and are good for new thematic collectors. There are a few examples of whole exhibit being disqualified for displaying CTOs but there are also examples of exhibits with CTOs getting the podium. My early Australian collection does have a CTO copy of the 5 shilling Sydbey Harbor Bridge but still I got a few citations for the exhibit of Bridges long time back!
When I started collecting it was these CTOs which got my fancy as they were cheap and the designs were good and I wanted to have at least one stamp from every country :-) but then I learned the terminology and the values after getting hold of an old S.G. catalog and everything changed.
These are excellent for a kick start and then as and when the knowledge grows it depends on the collector's fancy.
Saleem
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As a collector of Czechoslovakia, I can relate that there are people who have actually mailed letters from that place, and sometimes they even used the same stamps as were made into CTOs. They are fairly rare, but not nonexistent.
Others say it well: collect what you want. There's no reason to disparage a CTO; much of my Czech collection is CTO because that's what exists (at least in the US). But understand that many of those stamps valued at $5 in Scott (as CTOs) are commonly found in packets where they generally increase the catalogue value of the mixture, but are virtually as common as the minimum value stamps. As an investment, CTOs (at least of Eastern Europe under Soviet influence) will probably never be worth much, and certainly no collector of Czechoslovakian stamps would pay 10% of CV for most Czech CTOs, not because they disdain CTOs, but because Scott has inexplicably overvalued them.
Please note that I'm speaking solely of Eastern European CTOs of the post-war pre-fall period. I know nothing of Australian CTOs.
David
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Much of the difficulty with CTOs is that the term is an umbrella covering many different types of "CTOs".
Most Eastern European CTOs are probably matched by postally valid stamps of the same design, and were created for sale to packet makers to generate foreign income. As David notes, it's a challenge to find these stamps postally used.
Here's one from my collection; it's relatively easy to find mint and CTO copies, but this is the only one I've seen in postally used condition:
CTOs from the Arab Emirates and many "new nations" created as the result of political upheavals since the Second World War and the fall of Communism were created solely for profit. They sometimes come from nations that don't even have functioning postal systems or that aren't recognized by the Universal Postal Union. The stamps — labels, actually — are often available in mint condition. That doesn't mean they don't have their place, however. I recently bought a bogus Jane Fonda issue to include in my collection; Jane, of course, earned the enmity of most Americans, especially those in the military, by going to Hanoi during the Vietnam War and posing with an anti-aircraft gun crew and even sitting in the gunner's seat.
Favour cancelled stamps (FCSs?) are normally thought of as ordinary postage stamps which have been cancelled at the request of a customer so they can have a "used" stamp in their collection, perhaps because they want the cancellation itself more than the stamp. If that floats their boat, that's fine, but the stamps thus cancelled cannot be said to be postally used since they haven't "done their duty".
(I once got stung by a dealer who was offering complete used sets of the Columbus commemoratives issued in 1992. What I received was favor cancelled stamps with full gum. When I complained, he informed me that what I got was better than postally used stamps, and he wouldn't give me a refund!)
Then there are the German definitive CTOs of the Inflation Period of the early 1920s. They were ordinary stamps cancelled by postal workers to sell below face value. Since the cancellation devices that were used were also used to cancel stamps on letters, it's virtually impossible to tell if you have a CTO or a postally used stamp, especially if the gum is washed off, which it normally is. Scott notes that expertization is necessary to establish value, but postally used copies sell for large premiums over the CTOs.
Bob
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I guess if you asked 20 different collectors,rangeing from beginner to expert, you would get exactly 20 different answers and or opinions.
To avoid comments from the nay sayers, collect this type stamp in a "mint" condition. There is no way they can call them CTOs, for there would be no cancels. (CTO--CANCELED TO ORDER).
IMHO-- the CTO,FCS,HB,and FDC ,,are all in the same catagory.They all are non postal duty cancelations.(Psssst,, please dont tell the FDC collectors I include their items in the list).
cto- canceled to order
fcs- favor canceled stamps
hb- hand backs
fdc- first day cancels
Of course,there is nothing wrong with collecting any of the above, it's a matter of personal preferences. Some dont even care about the stamp, it is the cancelation they seek.
Do it your way, if you are haveing fun,you are doing it right.
We cannot always follow the "bosses" of philately, who tell you there are only three ways to collect-The right way,the wrong way,and my way.And as long as I decide the rules of the hobby,we WILL DO IT MY WAY.
LOL,
TOM
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Tom,
I agree with you about First Day Covers being included in with CTO's. Being a First Day Cover collector I am well aware that since the early 50's perhaps even the 30's and 40's most FDC cancels are philatelic in nature. First Day covers before that time made no reference to being a First Day Cover. You have to know the date that the stamp was issued to know if it is an FDC. I collect First Day Covers for the date of issue and the cachet not so much the stamp.
I purchased an ounce of Aland (not cheap!) a while ago on EBay from a guy I had bought a lot of kiloware from in the past. I was very disappointed when I received the stamps because 95% of them had been torn off First Day Covers. I did not consider them postally used. I put them in the album until I can find copies properly used.
Bob
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I have a standing order with both the U.N. in New York and their European offices in Vienna, Austria. When I receive an order from the U.N. in New York, the stamps are affixed to the envelope and are usually cancelled with the latest U.N. issue with First Day cancellations.
When I receive an order from the U.N. ofice in Vienna, they usually cancel the stamps either regular cancellations or First Day cancellations and send them to me in a glassine envelope with original gum with the rest of my order.
They both pay postage from the U.N. to my home.
Are these CTO's or genuinely used stamps? Any opinions?
Steve Scheibner
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That is interesting. I would keep them on cover to show that they were properly used for postage. I would not consider them CTO (possibly philatelic, that's another topic). If they were just clippings though, I would consider them considerably suspect.
Bob
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Steve,
I have a new issue service for my Scandinavian stamps.Where I get a single,pair and strip,in both mint and used,(as well as other format goodies,),and the canceled stamps are usually the first day or special cancel for the issue. I consider these as CTO,for they still have the "mint" condition gum. So I still search for singles and pairs with postal duty cancels,and hopefully singles and pairs both on and off cover.
I recently found a rather nice Sweden coil stamp,postaly canceled, in the SOR auction. A great find.At least for us collectors on the other side of the pond (U.S.) .
I am of course refering to coil stamps ,,I like to have examples of mint.used,and on cover as the basic collection,then mint strips added in,with plate numbers,back numbers,starter strips,end strips and with Sewden,the end stamp with astrix,preferably in a strip,,, and used as single or whatever.
Usually the covers I get are mailed within the country. And usually they have proper local cancels,not the special or FDC.And I prefer these.
Philatelic covers are OK, but are really another catagorey of collectables.
The new issue service I use is based in the U.S. ,so I am not subject to those HIGH postage costs from foreign countries.
TOM
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Hi All,
This is difficult to express, but topically oriented CTOs can be so much more than just stamps. When people are ill, depressed or are having a hard moment they must pass through, a packet of CTOs bearing bright colorful pictures of something they enjoy in life can bring a smile to their face. Not everyone is a stamp collector at heart, but stamps, even CTOs, can have a possitive affect on the heart.
Peace,
Doe
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Doe,
Difficult perhaps, Doe, but eloquently offered. I think you've hit the essence of this hobby; it offers something to each of us depending on the angle from which we approach it and what we hope to get out of it.
I'm blessed in that I see the sense of wonder that a little one brings to stamps, my daughter, for instance, when she helped me identify a stamp in the catalogue. There is no amount of money that could have bought the joy and pride she had having found this 20c stamp. It took us an hour of looking, and I don't know how long she'll remember this, but i'll go to my grave with a smile having shared this moment with her.
David
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When I first started collecting, I loved the stamps of the Sand Dunes, Eastern Europe and Grenada. When I got back into stamp collecting I went to a stamp dealer and asked if he had any albums for the Sand Dune countries (although I didn't know that's what they were called back then). He just laughed and told me they weren't really stamps. It took me a while to understand what he was talking about. I think these stamps are what got me hooked on stamp collecting and have a purpose in philately.
Bob
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Me too, Bob. I was 8 years old when my dad gave me a shoebox full of old Germany (mostly the inflation era) and a mix of worldwide. But, I really loved the bright sets acquired through the H E Harris approvals paid for with my allowance and paper route money. My collection "grew up" as I grew up - I'm still "growing up" LOL - but those colorful CTO's kept me interested as a little kid. The fact that they helped me get my "Collector" Girl Scout badge helped too!
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the pugnacious fighter in me now wants to start a collection of nothing BUT CTO's *grins ands starts sorting out the polish mess)*
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For many countries it is most difficult to create a collection of postally used stamps (Eastern Europe), and the catalogs value the used stamps as CTOs with a statement that postally used stamps are worth more. There are many stamps that were not permitted to be sold to collectors (official stamps are a good example), but were made available only as CTO.
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CTOs aren't confined to dunes and iron curtain countries. I'm having difficulties finding a certain POSTALLY used Seahorse for my Ireland collection. There are many copies with courtesy cancels (another name for CTO) from Dublin, but issues with cancels from the years issued are much more valuable. The catalog prices them used at a premium over mint, thus the courtesy cancels for those issues.
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You are right. CTOs are found on Belize, and many African and Asian nations. CTOs are also found on many older British colonial issues. Those (the British stamps) are often hinted at by italicized used values.)
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The vast majority of CTOs are the kind of stamps that you collect for fun, as are the vast majority of FDCs, maxicards, post-1940 anythings, etc.
One thing that unites all of us is gleaning - learning what you can from an object, and learning what is beyond that object - and if you've got that gleaner/learner mindset, you don't need a lot to get you started ... even a stamp will do.
The more 'serious' parts of the hobby - such as distinguishing flat plate & rotary & wet & dry printing, or mapping trade routes from the markings on old covers - is really more of the same.
Good thing that we can all cut each other a break, eh?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Okay, here's a rookie question. What's a good "tell" to determine if a stamp (off paper) is a CTO? I haven't quite figured that one out yet.
Thanks,
WB
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CTO's will usually have a nice neat quarter-circle postmark in one of the corners, as well as, usually, possessing full original gum. Sheets of stamps are usually cancelled in this manner, with one postmark covering 4 stamps.
Ted
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Hmmm...so somebody took perfectly good, MNH stamps to a P.O. and had them cancel said stamps and then added them to their collections or sold them to collectors?
I don't get it!
WB
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The postal service of the country produces the CTO's. They would CTO a bazillion sheets and then sell them in bulk, at a discount to face value, to large dealers who would then make up packets and sell them through ads in comic books and Boy's Life.
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Postal systems selling large amounts of CTO stamps at discounts from face value was a way of life for many countries as a means of raising much needed hard currency by selling to stamp dealers and wholesalers in the western countries, especially the United States.
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So were the stamps printed with the intent of selling them as CTO's or were they leftover stock.
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It is intentional. As Micahel . . . Mihcale . . . Mi that guy above said, producing stamps for the collector market was (and is) a major source of revenue for many small impoverished countries.
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Take the Vatican, for instance. Here's an excerpt from the Encyclopedia.com article:
The sale of stamps, in particular the sale of special series to stamp dealers and collectors, has turned into a sizable enterprise since these have great appeal and increase in value within weeks of their issue. A limited number of each series is sold to private dealers and collectors who place advance orders, and the rest to religious orders and other church institutions, which, in turn, sell them on to dealers at a handsome profit. Thus, both the Holy See and the Church as a whole derive considerable gain from the trade in stamps.
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While mostly intentional, there are some instances where stamps were "remaindered" and rendered postally invalid by a special cancel or even punching a whole through the stamp. These were then sold off to the collector market. North Borneo is a good one for remainder cancels.
Here's an example of the North Borneo remainder cancel. All stamps with this cancel are remainders.
Chile back-of-book has punched hole remainders. These are NOT to be confused with the three punched holes found on some early stamps from Hungary. Those are not remainders. Scott has a note about those.
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12:53:28am
Doe,
I quite agree. When I've spent time with my Dad sorting my stamps, there are no words to describe the joy I feel when he sees a stamp from Cuba or Nicaragua that a "collector" may see as wallpaper and see him say "Oh what a beautiful stamp." Just those remarks have made me consider creating some type of "album" for him to enjoy. He likes sports so maybe that would be a nice project and gift for him.
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"For many countries it is most difficult to create a collection of postally used stamps (Eastern Europe)..."
Difficult maybe, but not impossible. Postally used specimens are 'out there' (sometimes in very large numbers); the major difficulty is coming up with (local) contacts to deliver them. I've been more than fortunate to find good exchange friends from many of the eastern European countries who have been very happy to provide me what many collectors (even in their own country) consider junk.
What a beauty this is....
-k-
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I had always thought of stamps as payment for services, it never occurred to me that many were printed solely as a product for sale. Interesting.
Thanks for the education,
WB
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WB, some countries, like Czechoslovakia, for instance, not only produced CTOs, but they also produced large numbers of FDCs with stamps hinged to the paper. I've never seen a full cover with hinged FDC, so I suspect that these were produced on small slips of paper, rahter than covers. Can anyone confirm?
David
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I had a pretty good grasp on the concept of a stamp on cover being CTO'd. I always saw it as sort of a way of "completing" the cover. But, I had totally missed the idea of stamps themselves being produced and CTO'd for the sole purpose of creating a product to sell to collectors.
I spent about an hour last night going through what I had always assumed were used stamps in my WW album and did indeed find a few that had their original gum and the neat little corner cancel that Ted mentioned before. I suspect that there are a few more throughout the album and wonder now if I should put them into a separate collection, much like I've done with precancels and perfins.
Whoever wrote the movie, "The Neverending Story" must have been a stamp collector.
WB
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No reason to remove CTOs unless you have a postally used copy or just don't want to fill the space. It all depends upon what you collect. I don't see much difference between CTOs, FDCs, favor cancels or even reprints not valid for postal use like US #3 and #4.
I personally like favor canceled items as it involved a collector going to the PO and requesting a cancel for their collection; there is something personal about it. CTOs (and reprints) on the other hand do have a whiff of falsity about them. I don't know why folks pay hundreds for certain reprints but then turn up their nose at other reprints or CTOs. No difference IMO.
Certain CTOs in an album over long periods of time can adhere to the album pages. I guess that is the same problem one faces with any gummed stamp, but certain CTOs appeared to have cheap gum. I didn't have many genuine mint stamps as a kid, but did have some CTOs, particularly the dinosaurs and wild animal issues and some of these ended up sticking to the album pages after 30 years.
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WB, you might be interested to know that producing stamps purely for collectors has a long and dishonourable history. The dissolution of the British Empire (at least that part of it which had some control over stamp issues) hastened the appearance of certain countries which instantly took advantage - one thinks of Guyana. The growth of topical collecting further contributed, with tiny and newly-independent states becoming ever more reliant on 'stamp' sales (for instance, certain Caribbean and Pacific islands), and the almost wholesale switch from postal mail to electronic mail, texting and Skype has all but completed the process. You need to search fairly hard these days to find a country which does not rely on endless birds, flowers and animals for at least some of its income.
The Great Britain PUC issue of 1929 may have started this: it was seen straight away as a gift for wealthy collectors, dealers and speculators, some of whose descendants may still be cashing in. The stamp served no postal purpose and was universally excoriated by ordinary collectors who knew that there would be a permanent gap in their collection. (The PUC stamp was 160 times as expensive as the ordinary letter rate that year: today's equivalent would be a £100 stamp.)
In the 1930s several German issues were released purely for extortionary purposes: your name would be taken if you did not show enthusiasm and buy a set, and the proceeds went to Hitler's coffers.
In the 1960s some Iron Curtain countries realised that producing cheap and colourful stamps for what was then still the 'stamp packet' trade was also a money-maker. Poland, in particular, mixed high-quality engraved stamps with dreadful, oversized and usually CTO'd rubbish.
Today the UK and other European countries produce postally-needless varieties on stamps: endless sheets, sheetlets, 'prestige booklets' and so forth.
Stamps always had other uses besides postage, of course, and that accounted for some early high values, but the ever-present doubt as to the postal genuineness of MNH stamps is a main reason why many collectors will only look at postally used stamps, or even stamps on cover, and often not past, say, 1960.
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WB, I wouldn't create rule banning CTOs from your album; in many instances, unless you have a good source, finding postally used copies of many Czech stamps is nearly impossible; I suspect that's true for many other eastern European countries. I'd follow Lewis' suggestion and replace with better stamp WHEN it's available.
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I guess my first reaction isn't so much a feeling of disdain or as a tainting of my collection, but more like viewing them as a separate entity. They are what they are, not good, not bad, just different then the norm. Or at least what I thought was normal in the past.
I'll leave them where they are for now, but would consider replacing them, if a postal used example showed up. At which time I might use them to build a collection based off of just the CTO's.
Lots of excellent information in the posts since my first question, thank you!
WB
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In some other countries, outside the good ole US of A, CTO's are popular.
I like CTO's & I collect 'em and to me they are better than some used stamps..
I know I am not the only one, 'cause I sell sell thousands of 'em ( not many to the USA though)
Cheers
Stevo.
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It's pretty much the same in another of my collecting fields, pocket knives. After about 1960, knife companies began manufacturing knives in sets and limited edition singles geared towards the collector market. There are collectors who thrive on those and then there are the purists (like me) who collect only the vintage "production for use" knives. As a result, I have very few knives in my collection that were made after 1960.
Another example, at least for me, is Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars. I collected those from the time I was 8 until well into my 20's, but began loosing interest when those companies started producing their so called "limited editions" and "collector series". For whatever reason it just didn't seem the same and I handed down my collection to my sons and haven't bought one since.
I think it's the same in a lot of collector markets, as soon as something is deemed as "collectable", the companies (or in this case, countries) that produce those items start developing a marketing strategy. I think to some degree it does taint the hobby, but over time it either begins to intertwine or it fizzles out.
I guess it shouldn't surprise me that stamps have been produced under that same cloud. But admittedly, for just a moment...it did.
WB
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"It's pretty much the same in another of my collecting fields, pocket knives. "
I call it Beanie Baby Syndrome! A fad frenzy develops and people see dollar signs. The market eventually collapses and the items are worth nothing!
A short time ago a fellow contacted me about a large scale diecast toy car collection that his father had left him. The guy had put the time into creating a large spreadsheet listing all the specifics of each car. His father kept them all mint in the box, he had several of many of them. There were over 1000 pieces in the collection. Some of them had $50 price tags still on them.
This guy had dollar signs in his eyes. He mentioned that he saw some of them listed on eBay for $100 each. So I checked. Yes, there were copies of these for sale at that amount. But the sold auctions told a different story. The same car had expired without bids for $10 many times!
The guy didn't want to accept my word so I guess he shopped these around. A month later he got back to me that he'd sell them for $5 each. I still wasn't a buyer. I doubt I would've gone and picked them up if they were free!
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I've been agonizing over the trunk load of stamps I bought for $400 from an estate.
At last count I had $1,800 FV of Canada MNH from the 1980s to current but read in a discussion group elsewhere that they aren't of much any interest to "real collectors" and are really just useful for postage so generally sold at 60-70% of FV. So I wallpapered my daughter's room with them.
I also uncovered a box of Christmas seals, around 200 with some from the 1930s, but I remember reading that they aren't real stamps so "real collectors" wouldn't be interested. Accordingly, I lined my cat's litter box with them.
Now I see CTOs (and numerous alphanumeric variations) are also highly questionable, if not downright insulting to "real collectors". So although superficially beautiful to look at, and interesting to show to naive plebians ("plebeians" to the cunning linguists out there, before you correct me) to avoid professional embarassment I've had about 100,000 of the most egregious Commie and Sand Dune issues shredded and turned into duvets for the homeless.
So I now feel I'm on the philatelic moral high ground. And with just one stamp remaining - a jolly good SON postally-used, certified, VF, gum intact, 1940 1c Washington Irving - I no longer have the wasteful sorting and being pleasantly surprised nonsense to deal with.
Also, I no longer have to worry that I am wasting time with something that I thought was a hobby intended to bring joy to myself and others; but instead should properly be a pedantic exercise in accumulating only the most pristine and praiseworthy selection of "up-to-lofty-standards" bits of rarified paper. And also no more cares that my heirs will probably just end up selling this stockpile of net worth for 12.3% of market value in exchange for crack cocaine. At least that's what I think my seller was planning with his dad's collection that I got for the aforementioned $400.
OK, finished being cranky now. At least I got riled up enough to get backing to sorting...endless sorting...after a 2 month layoff. Thanks.
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Geez, so insightful the system posted it twice. Hmmm...
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"the system posted it twice"
That pesky system. I showed it a thing or two for doing that!
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Uhhh...congrats on your $400 "paper drive" purchase?
WB
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So lemaven paid four hundred bucks for some entertainment.
Every hour he spends wasting his time on that pile of philatelic waste brings down the cost/hour of entertaining himself with that pile of philatelic waste so, clearly, his best strategy is to spend more time sorting, examining, albumizing ... because the more time he puts in, the lower the cost/hour he is paying for his entertainment.
Go for it, fella!
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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David,
actually, sounds like you got an incredible deal. On the Canadian MNH alone, even at 60% return, you've got a 2.5X ROI, and all the rest is gravy, or cat litter, as you wish.
speaking of wishing, I wish you hadn't destroyed the seals. I'd have gladly taken them from you. Whether I would have paid much, if anything, who knows, it all depends. It is true, they are not stamps, but, then, neither are loonies, toonies, and copies of the constitution signed by all the delegates to the Constitutional congress.
And, CTOs, hopefully you read ALL the comments; some are dismissive, some are effusive, and all represent individual PoVs. I have, as I wrote, many CTOs in my Czech collection and am quite fine that; I would replace them with used copies if they were available, but they're not.
If this was tong in cheek, I hope you removed the litter before inserting; if real crankiness, I think you only read some of the comments and didn't do the math.
David
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"I had always thought of stamps as payment for services, it never occurred to me that many were printed solely as a product for sale. Interesting."
"I had always thought of stamps as payment for services, it never occurred to me that many were printed solely as a product for sale. Interesting."
I was thinking; the stamps bought as MNH - such as bought from the US Fulfillment Services - they were sold just for profit, they are not intended to do postal service; are they not the same as the CTO's?
When I collect a topical and they are difficult to obtain postally used, I just get the CTO - and I am happy with it!
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David, yes it was (much) more tongue in cheek. I actually did on a previous attempt to restart collecting 15 years ago toss some TB seals (I think they were "Muskoka Home For Consumptives" issues circa 1912-20 (?) Was in a stamp shop later and saw some similar items. Mentioned it to the dealer and another customer just about had a heart attack - it was his collecting specialty. I found a nice envelope with a related postmark and dropped it off for the guy as my mea culpa.
I have found some related things that maybe I can post some pictures of for comments.
Cheers.
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Jopie, that's an interesting perspective on stamps bought by collectors directly from a post office. I'm sure that is certainly how the post office views it. However, those stamps are still "live", and can be used for postage at any time. Canceled to order stamps are done. They will never be able to see postal duty. Once sold, a CTO is pure profit.
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"... best strategy is to spend more time sorting, examining, albumizing ... because the more time he puts in, the lower the cost/hour he is paying for his entertainment."
Thanks for the Labor Economics lesson Pikester. Where the heck were you when I was wasting money on another stupid idea (getting an MBA). I could have gone to the "Ikey College of Patronizing Omniscience" instead and put the money into some real stamps.
Um, now that I think of it I should declare the aforementioned comment is intended in good humor assuming you're doing a schtick (my own discussion contributions are 72% stupid humor, 14% incisive social commentary, and 16% pretending to do intellectual stuff so my wife won't give me more chores). I based this on your use of the word "albumizing" which I take as a sly, fun-loving application of a made-up word that an actual Persnickety Philatelist would not dare use in polite company. However, I admit to struggling with some of your Turing-Babylon-Klingon references and commentary, so if you are serious that things you don't collect are philatelic waste and that entertainment is not a suitable reason to buy or paw through stamps, then I offer my apologies. I didn't mean to sound...uh...mean. Oh yeah, and condolences to Mrs. PikeAttolah.
Getting serious now (seriously) I would like to benefit from your take on serious collecting. A-Ra posts some of his stuff which I find beautiful to look at and quite instructive. Any chance you'd do something similar? I'd love to see what you have that makes you proud. Maybe you'll save me from the path of self-inflicted ruin on which I currently stumble.
Cheers.
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"... Um, now that I think of it I should declare the aforementioned comment is intended in good humor ..."
Hey! You're they guy who said that he was using the stuff for kitty litter, and I'm the one who gets asked:
"... if you are serious that things you don't collect are philatelic waste and that entertainment is not a suitable reason ..."
On the contrary, I've posted more than once, in more than one venue, that I get enough fun out of rutting thru a bargain box that I could pay for my treasures, walk outside, dump them in the trash, and feel that I did okay.
It's all $/hr to me ... what I am paying to amuse myself.
I'm not in it for the 'investment', or the competition, or the pride, just the fun.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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"I'd love to see what you have that makes you proud."
Have to be careful who you say that to!
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"I was thinking; the stamps bought as MNH - such as bought from the US Fulfillment Services - they were sold just for profit, they are not intended to do postal service; are they not the same as the CTO's? "
Yes. Long and colorful sets of stamps for Christmas from Arab Sheikdoms with huge face values! This kind of stamp was aimed at collectors and back in the days I was collecting, people wondered if these stamps had ever seen the issuing countries. Stamps would go right from printers in Europe direct to stamp dealers. So there are countries (some aren't even countries) that you just don't bother collecting.
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CTOs may not be to everyone's liking but that does not mean they are not postage stamps, nor that they cannot be collected - that in itself is a collecting area - a thematic or topical collection.
You are correct that some "countries" issued CTOs that never saw the light of day in the region - but these can be collected. The United Arab Emirates is the official UPU postage stamp issuing entity on part of the Arabian peninsula but each emirate has issued local post stamps, cinderellas, that are collectible - either for the emirate or selected stamps for topical collections (art, religion, leaders, animals, transporation, etc.).
Please don't tell anyone not to collect something - every stamp, real or fake is collectible and it is up to each of us to decide what we want to collect.
Also, CTOs are not valued like postally used stamps so if buying them, be careful about what you pay. Some dealers charge high prices that are way out of line. CTOs are not investment stamps and should not be considered as such.
OK - I've said my piece - I feel better.
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"Have to be careful who you say that to!"
Yeah, Michael sent me a private message with a picture of his "pride and joy". I opened it while I was talking to my wife. She simply walked away saying, "Bet you won't get that thing in a Harris Album". I'm seriously considering switching to the Numismatic gang...
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Recycling an old Cheech'n'Chong joke ... priceless!
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"CTOs may not be to everyone's liking but that does not mean they are not postage stamps"
They're certainly no worse than collecting unused German inflation era issues which are rivalled, perhaps, only by Hungarian CTO's in their ubiquitousness and lack of monetary value.
Ted
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04:38:02am
RE:" that does not mean they are not postage stamps"
and
"They're certainly no worse than collecting unused German inflation era issues"
I'm afraid they are not postage stamps since their connection with postage, the operative word is at the very best tenuous. CTOs can and should be collected for what they are, first cousins to Jam Jar Labels or Banana stickers.
" unused German inflation era issues " on the other hand were initially printed for use as postage and some were so used. As to worse, worser or better that is a personal subjective decision as they are clearly postage stamps.
Neither comment (of mine) means a person interested in an accumulation of tiny illustrations of some favorite topic should not collect what they enjoy.
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i'm glad that the majority help to explain a thing in neutral terms, thereby allowing folks an opportunity to decide for themselves.
it's the way I hope things are, and will be, done
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"... I'm afraid they are not postage stamps since their connection with postage, the operative word is at the very best tenuous ..."
Fear on:
- proofs & essays are not postage stamps
- revenue stamps are not postage stamps
- postal cards & aerograms & registry envelopes are not postage stamps
- the bits of selvage attached to a plate block are not postage stamps
- Israeli tabs & American Mr Zip markings are not postage stamps
- US Postal Bulletins (et al) are not postage stamps
- First Day ceremonial items are not postage stamps
- postmarks (must I itemize?) are not postage stamps
- RPO route maps & timetables are not postage stamps
- postal clerk handstamps & handstampings are not postage stamps
- USPOD training stamps are not postage stamps
- postage meter imprints are not postage stamps
- postal savings stamps (and their trifolds) are not postage stamps
- caffeinated coffee grounds are not postage stamps
Keep The One Pure Faith, Forum Brother!
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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For crying out loud, ikey, you left off folded letters/stampless covers.
Ted
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Vayikra (Leviticus) 23:22
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etiquettes, cachets, free franks from APOs and FPOs and BPOs are all not stamps, nor are seals of any kind (official and fundraising)
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Quote cdj1122...
RE:" [b]that does not mean they are not postage stamps[/b]"
and
"[b]They're certainly no worse than collecting unused German inflation era issues[/b]"
I'm afraid they are not postage stamps since their connection with postage, the operative word is at the very best tenuous. CTOs can and should be collected for what they are, first cousins to Jam Jar Labels or Banana stickers.
" [b]unused German inflation era issues[/b] " on the other hand were initially printed for use as postage and some were so used. As to worse, worser or better that is a personal subjective decision as they are clearly postage stamps.
Neither comment (of mine) means a person interested in an accumulation of tiny illustrations of some favorite topic should not collect what they enjoy.
Just like US #3 and #4 are not postage stamps but are merely imitations, fakes, cheesy garbage, or collectible treasures, depending on your point of view. They will never appear legitimately on cover and and yet they sell for significantly more than the value of #1 and #2. I suppose the folks that despise CTOs would also relegate this US garbage to the scrap heap, or maybe become purely mercenary and sell these cheesy labels for a profit.
Quotation from 1847usa site regarding these issues says it perfectly (emphasis mine):
"Special printing issues had been demonetized effective July 1, 1851. Therefore, these official reproductions of the Issue of 1847 were never valid for postage and no legitimate covers can exist. They were available for sale, by special application to the Post Office Department, starting about March 27, 1875"
http://stampsmarter.com/1847usa/1847identifier.htm
Corrupt US PO selling reprints for a profit at the expense of legitimate collectors. No worse than the worst offending dune countries.
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*hugs his rattlesnake island cover and 'notstamps' collection* Im a hoarder, i like it all lol
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04:48:26pm
It isn't really a matter of despising "CTOs" it is the act of calling a shovel a shovel, and not a pitchfork.
I've seen far too many somewhat inexperienced collectors display pages and pages of CTOs in an album that is worth far more than the entire collection of labels.
That they enjoy them and are able to proudly display them is one thing. But then the day comes when they discover, or worse, are told in public at a dealer's counter on a Saturday morning, that those shrewdly marketed items are not postage stamps, never were to the distant land whose name is inscribed and have a real value just slightly exceeding a twice used teabag.
I've seen that scenario acted out many times and hate the choked back tears, and watching the smiles that begin to turn to suspicion and lay the groundwork for the belief that stamping is full of thieves. There is the feeling that the bright sun has found a dark cloud to hide behind.
The situation is very different for experienced collectors who might choose to use a CTO to fill a space or tell a story, or even decides to collect sets that are otherwise unavailable or out of their price range. If they are later disappointed they can't complain that they knew not what they were doing.
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Ok, seems like I'm missing something here. Whats the difference in a country issuing CTOs and a country like Republique de Benin cranking out mint sheets by the gazillion covering every topical ever conceived? I don't think any of that stuff was ever intended, nor will it ever be used to push the mail. Do they also put out CTO stuff?
Ernie
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No difference, ernie. Even if a number of these mint sheets found their way back to their purported country of origin, and were used for postage, the loss of revenue would be negligible compared to the money made from the overseas sales of the mint sheets in the first place.
Ted
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"But then the day comes when they discover, or worse, are told in public at a dealer's counter on a Saturday morning, that those shrewdly marketed items are not postage stamps, never were to the distant land whose name is inscribed and have a real value just slightly exceeding a twice used teabag."
Umm... And the problem here is...? Most of us '(non)serious collectors' know about 99% of postage stamps issued since 1960s are not even worth the paper they were printed on as. This applies not just CTOs, it applies to most used stamps out there (and mint stuff is not much better when/if becomes invalid as postage).
Most likely dealers refusing CTOs have absolutely no objection with CTOs specifically. It just isn't the type of stuff (value, demand etc) they are looking to sell/buy. Very likely most US dealers wish all 'potential sellers' had copies of US#3 or US#4 instead of hundreds of prexies and 1940/60s stamps, LOL.
Shredded dreams (on both sides) - that's what stamp dealing is all about
-k-
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So the argument against CTO's is the negligible value and disappointing offere by a dealer? How much is that inexperienced collector going to get for an album full of "really old" used US stamps, all of which can be deemed "real," and having "performed their postal duty?"
Ted
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04:52:33am
The sentence that follows is;
" ... I've seen that scenario acted out many times and hate the choked back tears, and watching the smiles that begin to turn to suspicion and lay the groundwork for the belief that stamping is full of thieves. ..."
I guess that I should have added the obvious;
" and another potential collector, departs with a less than positive view of the hobby to spread about."
Macy's Department stores had an interesting motto that was actually a guideline; The customer is always right.
They followed that and offered product replacements or refunds to people even those with really whacko claims, because they knew that a happy customer will tell someone or perhaps two people and forget the experience, but a disgruntled customer will tell ten people and bring their unhappy experience up for years thereafter.
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Can somebody post the definition of a "real collector"? I don't think I am one. I don't base my collection around monetary value or absolute perfection in my albums. Only around what is fun and pleasing to ME. Is that bad?
WB
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All collectibles are always bought cup-half-full, and sold cup-half-empty.
If dealer price spreads were a killer issue, all of the hobbies would be dead.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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I seldom disagree with Charlie, but I do here.
CTOs are just stamps, no more, no less. That they didn't, and weren't intended to, carry the mail is little different from imperf press sheets and FDCs, both of which have much smaller markets. For ANYONE expecting to get back financially what was put into a stamp collection, there is a rude awakening afoot.
As to dealers looking askance, the clever ones will thank the tike and the idiots will make faces, just like they would when I show up with all my covers, which my wife is hoping will be later today, tomorrow latest.
Really, the main difference between a CTO and the pair of 15c Liberty perfins is that one carried the mail and one didn't; and if the CTOs were Disney or WWII 50-year commems, they'd likely sell for more.
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I think at least with the CTOs, its pretty easy to make the case to the novice collector or the recent heir to a "treasure" of stamps, that the collectibles aren't worth much. But when an heir tries to sell the collection of modern US or modern worldwide (modern meaning 1930's onward) common stamps, which contains legitimate postage stamps, but purchased from Mystic (or a similar dealer) at a huge mark-up, they will have doubts. "But Grandpa bought these stamps from Mystic over a period of fifteen years and spent over $15,000."
Okay, in either case, we should strive to educate collectors that visit this forum and others about these problems. CTOs are no special case.
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03:06:42am
" ... Okay, in either case, we should strive to educate collectors that visit this forum and others about these problems. CTOs are no special case. ..."
This is an important point, for not only are there members willing to read and ask questions, there are those who lurk or browse and learn without actively participating.
In a similar vein to some posts about using abbreviations and acronyms without explaining their meaning, we should be careful about broad statements of opinion that may be accepted as fact.
The stamper who does not belong to a local brick and mortar club and avoids keyboards due to his, or her, fear of acquiring a virus through digital contact is the most likely candidate for major disappointment the day that isolated Mystic collector or his hers decides to see what gramper's $15,ooo lifetime expenditure for what I usually refer to as Jam Jar Labels is worth.
If our goal, or one of them as a club, is to expand philatelic knowledge we need to consider the newbie and explain what we mean. I think I visited this and another site on and off for probably two years before I actually got serious about joining.
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As a hobbyist, when you start to worry more about the value of the stamps than collecting them, then you are no longer a hobbyist.
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"... when you start to worry more about the value ... then you are no longer a hobbyist ..."
That is an admirably bright line, but what are the next few levels to be called?
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"That is an admirably bright line, but what are the next few levels to be called?"
Hobbyist/Dealer
Dealer
Investor
Bill Gross
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I would think that many advanced collectors, while very much aware of the money they are putting into their collections, and the value accumulating therein, would resist being classed as a "Hobbyist/Dealer", if only because they do not buy to sell.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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12:09:23am
And there are a good sized legion of collectors who obsess over going through the most recent catalog
to update their philatelic spread sheet with condition, source, date of purchase
(or possession), initial cost, as well as the catalog's numerical comparative rarity listing, followed
by a row of totals at the bottom of the page..
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
Ooops, I dozed off contemplating the selling value of my little stamp accumulation.
Time for bed for me.
Moderator's note: This message was edited to reformat it to fit the screen.
(Modified by Moderator on 2016-04-01 13:34:24)
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"
"That is an admirably bright line, but what are the next few levels to be called?"
"
"Hobbyist/Dealer
Dealer
Investor
Bill Gross"
Don't forget this level:
Widow regretting spouse spent life savings on stamps
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Thank you moderator. 
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09:38:26pm
I have heard that quite a few collectors regard CTOs as "wallpaper" and treat them with disdain (not to say contempt). I recently acquired 1000 stamps of Czechoslovakia, and EVERY SINGLE ONE was a CTO. At first I was devastated, but then - after closer examination of individual items - came to appreciate the very high standards of design and engraving across the spectrum of stamps of this country. Still, I did wonder whether anyone actually posts a letter from Czechoslovakia. Does any member have particular thoughts about CTOs?
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11:25:53pm
re: talking about CTOs
Seeing as CTO stands for canceled to order, they are not postage stamps.
But you collect what appeals to you. Just keep in mind,they have little if no monetary values,as far as the "stamp" collector is concerned.
But,, there is a difference between collections.
Most "stamp" collectors are "postage" stamp collectors.
CTOs are stamps. And can be collected as such,as long as you understand that they are not stamps that were intended to be used as postage payments for mail delivery, but only as pretty pictures for the mass sales to dealers as filler stock, to sweeten an otherwise unappealing selection of regular stamps, and were/are produced as an alternate source of income for the countries produceing them.
Cinderellas are not postage stamps,but many stamp colletors include them in their collections,more often than CTO stamps.
Christmas seals and other nonprofit orgs. produce cinderellas, which are not postage stamps, wont pay for delivery of mail, but are coveted by many collectors when found used on cover(in combination with real postage stamps) where the cancelation ties the cinderella to the cover.
I imagine if all those CTO stamps were added to regular mail covers in the same manner,they would be a better collectable. As an item by itself,the CTO is,as said by many, "just so much wallpaper".
The only thing worth while I've heard said about CTOs,is they are an inexpensive tool for educational uses. In grade schools,for history,geography,politics,monetary systems,and art.
There is always a use for everything,all is not a loss.
TOM
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11:37:02pm
re: talking about CTOs
Thank you, Tom. That was most enlightening. I'm long out of grade school, but still have an insatiable appetite for history, geography, politics, monetary systems, and art. So my 1000 stamps of Czechoslovakia will be put to good use. In any case, I just love looking at them!
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01:08:01am
re: talking about CTOs
I need to add this. CTO Australian stamps for most issues (i.e., the official CTO cancellation for full gum, Melbourne cancel Kangaroo and Geo V issues issued in Specimen packs) are worth a huge premium over postally used issues.
CTO is a term most commonly used for Eastern European issues distributed from the early 1950's to around 1990ish. It is not a universal term, and I would suggest that it, like many other terms, does not have a "universal" meaning.
A CTO 5/- Sydney Harbour Bridge stamp is still worth about $A300. it is certainly not worthless.
Norm
(Message edited by fromdownunder on January 20, 2009)
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re: talking about CTOs
From the Ask Phil Philatelic Glossary: "Canceled to Order (CTO): stamps cancelled by postal authorities without having been used for postage; they are less desirable than stamps which have seen postal duty."
From the 2004 edition of the Scott Classic Specialized Catalogue of Stamps & Covers -- 1840-1940: Some countries...issue stamps cancelled-to-order (CTO), either in sheets with original gum or stuck onto pieces of paper of envelopes and cancelled. Such CTO items generally are worth less than postally used stamps. In cases where the CTO material is more prevalent in the marketplace than postally used examples, the catalogue value relate to the CTO examples, with postally used examples noted as premium items. Most CTOs can be detected the presence of gum. However, as the CTO practice goes back at least to 1885, the gum inevitably has been soaked off some stamps so they could pass as postally used. The normally applied postmarks usually differ slightly from standard postmarks, and specialists are able to tell the difference. Whenb applied individually to envelops by philatelically minded persons, CTO material is known as favor cancelled and generally sells at large discounts."
The same catalogue notes that most used examples of Tannu Tuva Nos. 1-92 and C1-C18 on the market are CTOs and are priced in the catalogue as CTOs. I note used CTO values ranging from $1 to $300.
My experience of purchasing WWII stamps of the Soviet Union and North Vietnamese stamps is that CTOs are far more common than postally used copies, and even then can cost a good deal of money.
A specialized North Vietnam catalogue that I have notes that postally stamps issued by the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam, 1945-1946, are not known to have been postally used, yet they command good prices. I bought some recently from Lee Payette in the Stamporama Auction, and had to fight for them. The same is true of all of the issues of the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam, more commonly known as the Vietcong or VC to us Vietnam veterans. While these items may not have been postally used, they nevertheless reflect the politics of their times and are valuable postal artifacts even if some collectors prefer not to call them stamps.
Bob
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re: talking about CTOs
I've always thought the whole CTO debate is a great example of why it is so important to follow the old maxim and "collect what you want." CTOs do have a few good points. As an alternative to postally used stamps, they are frequently in near perfect condition with unobtrusive cancels. As an alternative to unused stamps, they are frequently inexpensive because the issuing government was never obliged to actually perform a service. They sometimes provide the only affordable way to have an example of a particular issue for your collection. In my opinion, provided a person understands the nature of CTOs, then collecting them is a perfectly valid philatelic pursuit.
Unfortunately I think that the mass production of CTOs that Norm referred to has done some damage to the hobby. Many young and otherwise new collectors bought these stamps in inexpensive (and sometimes not-so-inexpensive) packets and worked hard to build collections only to be told later that their stamps are worthless and uncollectible. Probably not the best situation for bringing new folks into the fold!
Ralph
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re: talking about CTOs
There are CTOs and there are printed cancellations - I have seen quite a few from Sand Dune countries and even East Germany with the cancellations printed on the stamp design. These are available as CTOs and are good for new thematic collectors. There are a few examples of whole exhibit being disqualified for displaying CTOs but there are also examples of exhibits with CTOs getting the podium. My early Australian collection does have a CTO copy of the 5 shilling Sydbey Harbor Bridge but still I got a few citations for the exhibit of Bridges long time back!
When I started collecting it was these CTOs which got my fancy as they were cheap and the designs were good and I wanted to have at least one stamp from every country :-) but then I learned the terminology and the values after getting hold of an old S.G. catalog and everything changed.
These are excellent for a kick start and then as and when the knowledge grows it depends on the collector's fancy.
Saleem
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Auctions
re: talking about CTOs
As a collector of Czechoslovakia, I can relate that there are people who have actually mailed letters from that place, and sometimes they even used the same stamps as were made into CTOs. They are fairly rare, but not nonexistent.
Others say it well: collect what you want. There's no reason to disparage a CTO; much of my Czech collection is CTO because that's what exists (at least in the US). But understand that many of those stamps valued at $5 in Scott (as CTOs) are commonly found in packets where they generally increase the catalogue value of the mixture, but are virtually as common as the minimum value stamps. As an investment, CTOs (at least of Eastern Europe under Soviet influence) will probably never be worth much, and certainly no collector of Czechoslovakian stamps would pay 10% of CV for most Czech CTOs, not because they disdain CTOs, but because Scott has inexplicably overvalued them.
Please note that I'm speaking solely of Eastern European CTOs of the post-war pre-fall period. I know nothing of Australian CTOs.
David
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re: talking about CTOs
Much of the difficulty with CTOs is that the term is an umbrella covering many different types of "CTOs".
Most Eastern European CTOs are probably matched by postally valid stamps of the same design, and were created for sale to packet makers to generate foreign income. As David notes, it's a challenge to find these stamps postally used.
Here's one from my collection; it's relatively easy to find mint and CTO copies, but this is the only one I've seen in postally used condition:
CTOs from the Arab Emirates and many "new nations" created as the result of political upheavals since the Second World War and the fall of Communism were created solely for profit. They sometimes come from nations that don't even have functioning postal systems or that aren't recognized by the Universal Postal Union. The stamps — labels, actually — are often available in mint condition. That doesn't mean they don't have their place, however. I recently bought a bogus Jane Fonda issue to include in my collection; Jane, of course, earned the enmity of most Americans, especially those in the military, by going to Hanoi during the Vietnam War and posing with an anti-aircraft gun crew and even sitting in the gunner's seat.
Favour cancelled stamps (FCSs?) are normally thought of as ordinary postage stamps which have been cancelled at the request of a customer so they can have a "used" stamp in their collection, perhaps because they want the cancellation itself more than the stamp. If that floats their boat, that's fine, but the stamps thus cancelled cannot be said to be postally used since they haven't "done their duty".
(I once got stung by a dealer who was offering complete used sets of the Columbus commemoratives issued in 1992. What I received was favor cancelled stamps with full gum. When I complained, he informed me that what I got was better than postally used stamps, and he wouldn't give me a refund!)
Then there are the German definitive CTOs of the Inflation Period of the early 1920s. They were ordinary stamps cancelled by postal workers to sell below face value. Since the cancellation devices that were used were also used to cancel stamps on letters, it's virtually impossible to tell if you have a CTO or a postally used stamp, especially if the gum is washed off, which it normally is. Scott notes that expertization is necessary to establish value, but postally used copies sell for large premiums over the CTOs.
Bob
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02:21:53pm
re: talking about CTOs
I guess if you asked 20 different collectors,rangeing from beginner to expert, you would get exactly 20 different answers and or opinions.
To avoid comments from the nay sayers, collect this type stamp in a "mint" condition. There is no way they can call them CTOs, for there would be no cancels. (CTO--CANCELED TO ORDER).
IMHO-- the CTO,FCS,HB,and FDC ,,are all in the same catagory.They all are non postal duty cancelations.(Psssst,, please dont tell the FDC collectors I include their items in the list).
cto- canceled to order
fcs- favor canceled stamps
hb- hand backs
fdc- first day cancels
Of course,there is nothing wrong with collecting any of the above, it's a matter of personal preferences. Some dont even care about the stamp, it is the cancelation they seek.
Do it your way, if you are haveing fun,you are doing it right.
We cannot always follow the "bosses" of philately, who tell you there are only three ways to collect-The right way,the wrong way,and my way.And as long as I decide the rules of the hobby,we WILL DO IT MY WAY.
LOL,
TOM
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President - West Essex Philatelic Society www.wepsonline.org
20 Jan 2009
04:55:13pm
re: talking about CTOs
Tom,
I agree with you about First Day Covers being included in with CTO's. Being a First Day Cover collector I am well aware that since the early 50's perhaps even the 30's and 40's most FDC cancels are philatelic in nature. First Day covers before that time made no reference to being a First Day Cover. You have to know the date that the stamp was issued to know if it is an FDC. I collect First Day Covers for the date of issue and the cachet not so much the stamp.
I purchased an ounce of Aland (not cheap!) a while ago on EBay from a guy I had bought a lot of kiloware from in the past. I was very disappointed when I received the stamps because 95% of them had been torn off First Day Covers. I did not consider them postally used. I put them in the album until I can find copies properly used.
Bob
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11:24:39am
re: talking about CTOs
I have a standing order with both the U.N. in New York and their European offices in Vienna, Austria. When I receive an order from the U.N. in New York, the stamps are affixed to the envelope and are usually cancelled with the latest U.N. issue with First Day cancellations.
When I receive an order from the U.N. ofice in Vienna, they usually cancel the stamps either regular cancellations or First Day cancellations and send them to me in a glassine envelope with original gum with the rest of my order.
They both pay postage from the U.N. to my home.
Are these CTO's or genuinely used stamps? Any opinions?
Steve Scheibner
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21 Jan 2009
12:44:34pm
re: talking about CTOs
That is interesting. I would keep them on cover to show that they were properly used for postage. I would not consider them CTO (possibly philatelic, that's another topic). If they were just clippings though, I would consider them considerably suspect.
Bob
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08:00:29pm
re: talking about CTOs
Steve,
I have a new issue service for my Scandinavian stamps.Where I get a single,pair and strip,in both mint and used,(as well as other format goodies,),and the canceled stamps are usually the first day or special cancel for the issue. I consider these as CTO,for they still have the "mint" condition gum. So I still search for singles and pairs with postal duty cancels,and hopefully singles and pairs both on and off cover.
I recently found a rather nice Sweden coil stamp,postaly canceled, in the SOR auction. A great find.At least for us collectors on the other side of the pond (U.S.) .
I am of course refering to coil stamps ,,I like to have examples of mint.used,and on cover as the basic collection,then mint strips added in,with plate numbers,back numbers,starter strips,end strips and with Sewden,the end stamp with astrix,preferably in a strip,,, and used as single or whatever.
Usually the covers I get are mailed within the country. And usually they have proper local cancels,not the special or FDC.And I prefer these.
Philatelic covers are OK, but are really another catagorey of collectables.
The new issue service I use is based in the U.S. ,so I am not subject to those HIGH postage costs from foreign countries.
TOM
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re: talking about CTOs
Hi All,
This is difficult to express, but topically oriented CTOs can be so much more than just stamps. When people are ill, depressed or are having a hard moment they must pass through, a packet of CTOs bearing bright colorful pictures of something they enjoy in life can bring a smile to their face. Not everyone is a stamp collector at heart, but stamps, even CTOs, can have a possitive affect on the heart.
Peace,
Doe
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Doe,
Difficult perhaps, Doe, but eloquently offered. I think you've hit the essence of this hobby; it offers something to each of us depending on the angle from which we approach it and what we hope to get out of it.
I'm blessed in that I see the sense of wonder that a little one brings to stamps, my daughter, for instance, when she helped me identify a stamp in the catalogue. There is no amount of money that could have bought the joy and pride she had having found this 20c stamp. It took us an hour of looking, and I don't know how long she'll remember this, but i'll go to my grave with a smile having shared this moment with her.
David
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22 Jan 2009
01:53:26pm
re: talking about CTOs
When I first started collecting, I loved the stamps of the Sand Dunes, Eastern Europe and Grenada. When I got back into stamp collecting I went to a stamp dealer and asked if he had any albums for the Sand Dune countries (although I didn't know that's what they were called back then). He just laughed and told me they weren't really stamps. It took me a while to understand what he was talking about. I think these stamps are what got me hooked on stamp collecting and have a purpose in philately.
Bob
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re: talking about CTOs
Me too, Bob. I was 8 years old when my dad gave me a shoebox full of old Germany (mostly the inflation era) and a mix of worldwide. But, I really loved the bright sets acquired through the H E Harris approvals paid for with my allowance and paper route money. My collection "grew up" as I grew up - I'm still "growing up" LOL - but those colorful CTO's kept me interested as a little kid. The fact that they helped me get my "Collector" Girl Scout badge helped too!
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09:45:47am
re: talking about CTOs
the pugnacious fighter in me now wants to start a collection of nothing BUT CTO's *grins ands starts sorting out the polish mess)*
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For many countries it is most difficult to create a collection of postally used stamps (Eastern Europe), and the catalogs value the used stamps as CTOs with a statement that postally used stamps are worth more. There are many stamps that were not permitted to be sold to collectors (official stamps are a good example), but were made available only as CTO.
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CTOs aren't confined to dunes and iron curtain countries. I'm having difficulties finding a certain POSTALLY used Seahorse for my Ireland collection. There are many copies with courtesy cancels (another name for CTO) from Dublin, but issues with cancels from the years issued are much more valuable. The catalog prices them used at a premium over mint, thus the courtesy cancels for those issues.
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You are right. CTOs are found on Belize, and many African and Asian nations. CTOs are also found on many older British colonial issues. Those (the British stamps) are often hinted at by italicized used values.)
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re: talking about CTOs
The vast majority of CTOs are the kind of stamps that you collect for fun, as are the vast majority of FDCs, maxicards, post-1940 anythings, etc.
One thing that unites all of us is gleaning - learning what you can from an object, and learning what is beyond that object - and if you've got that gleaner/learner mindset, you don't need a lot to get you started ... even a stamp will do.
The more 'serious' parts of the hobby - such as distinguishing flat plate & rotary & wet & dry printing, or mapping trade routes from the markings on old covers - is really more of the same.
Good thing that we can all cut each other a break, eh?
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Okay, here's a rookie question. What's a good "tell" to determine if a stamp (off paper) is a CTO? I haven't quite figured that one out yet.
Thanks,
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
CTO's will usually have a nice neat quarter-circle postmark in one of the corners, as well as, usually, possessing full original gum. Sheets of stamps are usually cancelled in this manner, with one postmark covering 4 stamps.
Ted
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re: talking about CTOs
Hmmm...so somebody took perfectly good, MNH stamps to a P.O. and had them cancel said stamps and then added them to their collections or sold them to collectors?
I don't get it!
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
The postal service of the country produces the CTO's. They would CTO a bazillion sheets and then sell them in bulk, at a discount to face value, to large dealers who would then make up packets and sell them through ads in comic books and Boy's Life.
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Postal systems selling large amounts of CTO stamps at discounts from face value was a way of life for many countries as a means of raising much needed hard currency by selling to stamp dealers and wholesalers in the western countries, especially the United States.
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So were the stamps printed with the intent of selling them as CTO's or were they leftover stock.
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It is intentional. As Micahel . . . Mihcale . . . Mi that guy above said, producing stamps for the collector market was (and is) a major source of revenue for many small impoverished countries.
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Take the Vatican, for instance. Here's an excerpt from the Encyclopedia.com article:
The sale of stamps, in particular the sale of special series to stamp dealers and collectors, has turned into a sizable enterprise since these have great appeal and increase in value within weeks of their issue. A limited number of each series is sold to private dealers and collectors who place advance orders, and the rest to religious orders and other church institutions, which, in turn, sell them on to dealers at a handsome profit. Thus, both the Holy See and the Church as a whole derive considerable gain from the trade in stamps.
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While mostly intentional, there are some instances where stamps were "remaindered" and rendered postally invalid by a special cancel or even punching a whole through the stamp. These were then sold off to the collector market. North Borneo is a good one for remainder cancels.
Here's an example of the North Borneo remainder cancel. All stamps with this cancel are remainders.
Chile back-of-book has punched hole remainders. These are NOT to be confused with the three punched holes found on some early stamps from Hungary. Those are not remainders. Scott has a note about those.
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22 Mar 2016
12:53:28am
re: talking about CTOs
Doe,
I quite agree. When I've spent time with my Dad sorting my stamps, there are no words to describe the joy I feel when he sees a stamp from Cuba or Nicaragua that a "collector" may see as wallpaper and see him say "Oh what a beautiful stamp." Just those remarks have made me consider creating some type of "album" for him to enjoy. He likes sports so maybe that would be a nice project and gift for him.
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"For many countries it is most difficult to create a collection of postally used stamps (Eastern Europe)..."
Difficult maybe, but not impossible. Postally used specimens are 'out there' (sometimes in very large numbers); the major difficulty is coming up with (local) contacts to deliver them. I've been more than fortunate to find good exchange friends from many of the eastern European countries who have been very happy to provide me what many collectors (even in their own country) consider junk.
What a beauty this is....
-k-
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re: talking about CTOs
I had always thought of stamps as payment for services, it never occurred to me that many were printed solely as a product for sale. Interesting.
Thanks for the education,
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
WB, some countries, like Czechoslovakia, for instance, not only produced CTOs, but they also produced large numbers of FDCs with stamps hinged to the paper. I've never seen a full cover with hinged FDC, so I suspect that these were produced on small slips of paper, rahter than covers. Can anyone confirm?
David
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I had a pretty good grasp on the concept of a stamp on cover being CTO'd. I always saw it as sort of a way of "completing" the cover. But, I had totally missed the idea of stamps themselves being produced and CTO'd for the sole purpose of creating a product to sell to collectors.
I spent about an hour last night going through what I had always assumed were used stamps in my WW album and did indeed find a few that had their original gum and the neat little corner cancel that Ted mentioned before. I suspect that there are a few more throughout the album and wonder now if I should put them into a separate collection, much like I've done with precancels and perfins.
Whoever wrote the movie, "The Neverending Story" must have been a stamp collector.
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
No reason to remove CTOs unless you have a postally used copy or just don't want to fill the space. It all depends upon what you collect. I don't see much difference between CTOs, FDCs, favor cancels or even reprints not valid for postal use like US #3 and #4.
I personally like favor canceled items as it involved a collector going to the PO and requesting a cancel for their collection; there is something personal about it. CTOs (and reprints) on the other hand do have a whiff of falsity about them. I don't know why folks pay hundreds for certain reprints but then turn up their nose at other reprints or CTOs. No difference IMO.
Certain CTOs in an album over long periods of time can adhere to the album pages. I guess that is the same problem one faces with any gummed stamp, but certain CTOs appeared to have cheap gum. I didn't have many genuine mint stamps as a kid, but did have some CTOs, particularly the dinosaurs and wild animal issues and some of these ended up sticking to the album pages after 30 years.
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WB, you might be interested to know that producing stamps purely for collectors has a long and dishonourable history. The dissolution of the British Empire (at least that part of it which had some control over stamp issues) hastened the appearance of certain countries which instantly took advantage - one thinks of Guyana. The growth of topical collecting further contributed, with tiny and newly-independent states becoming ever more reliant on 'stamp' sales (for instance, certain Caribbean and Pacific islands), and the almost wholesale switch from postal mail to electronic mail, texting and Skype has all but completed the process. You need to search fairly hard these days to find a country which does not rely on endless birds, flowers and animals for at least some of its income.
The Great Britain PUC issue of 1929 may have started this: it was seen straight away as a gift for wealthy collectors, dealers and speculators, some of whose descendants may still be cashing in. The stamp served no postal purpose and was universally excoriated by ordinary collectors who knew that there would be a permanent gap in their collection. (The PUC stamp was 160 times as expensive as the ordinary letter rate that year: today's equivalent would be a £100 stamp.)
In the 1930s several German issues were released purely for extortionary purposes: your name would be taken if you did not show enthusiasm and buy a set, and the proceeds went to Hitler's coffers.
In the 1960s some Iron Curtain countries realised that producing cheap and colourful stamps for what was then still the 'stamp packet' trade was also a money-maker. Poland, in particular, mixed high-quality engraved stamps with dreadful, oversized and usually CTO'd rubbish.
Today the UK and other European countries produce postally-needless varieties on stamps: endless sheets, sheetlets, 'prestige booklets' and so forth.
Stamps always had other uses besides postage, of course, and that accounted for some early high values, but the ever-present doubt as to the postal genuineness of MNH stamps is a main reason why many collectors will only look at postally used stamps, or even stamps on cover, and often not past, say, 1960.
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WB, I wouldn't create rule banning CTOs from your album; in many instances, unless you have a good source, finding postally used copies of many Czech stamps is nearly impossible; I suspect that's true for many other eastern European countries. I'd follow Lewis' suggestion and replace with better stamp WHEN it's available.
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I guess my first reaction isn't so much a feeling of disdain or as a tainting of my collection, but more like viewing them as a separate entity. They are what they are, not good, not bad, just different then the norm. Or at least what I thought was normal in the past.
I'll leave them where they are for now, but would consider replacing them, if a postal used example showed up. At which time I might use them to build a collection based off of just the CTO's.
Lots of excellent information in the posts since my first question, thank you!
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
In some other countries, outside the good ole US of A, CTO's are popular.
I like CTO's & I collect 'em and to me they are better than some used stamps..
I know I am not the only one, 'cause I sell sell thousands of 'em ( not many to the USA though)
Cheers
Stevo.
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It's pretty much the same in another of my collecting fields, pocket knives. After about 1960, knife companies began manufacturing knives in sets and limited edition singles geared towards the collector market. There are collectors who thrive on those and then there are the purists (like me) who collect only the vintage "production for use" knives. As a result, I have very few knives in my collection that were made after 1960.
Another example, at least for me, is Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars. I collected those from the time I was 8 until well into my 20's, but began loosing interest when those companies started producing their so called "limited editions" and "collector series". For whatever reason it just didn't seem the same and I handed down my collection to my sons and haven't bought one since.
I think it's the same in a lot of collector markets, as soon as something is deemed as "collectable", the companies (or in this case, countries) that produce those items start developing a marketing strategy. I think to some degree it does taint the hobby, but over time it either begins to intertwine or it fizzles out.
I guess it shouldn't surprise me that stamps have been produced under that same cloud. But admittedly, for just a moment...it did.
WB
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"It's pretty much the same in another of my collecting fields, pocket knives. "
I call it Beanie Baby Syndrome! A fad frenzy develops and people see dollar signs. The market eventually collapses and the items are worth nothing!
A short time ago a fellow contacted me about a large scale diecast toy car collection that his father had left him. The guy had put the time into creating a large spreadsheet listing all the specifics of each car. His father kept them all mint in the box, he had several of many of them. There were over 1000 pieces in the collection. Some of them had $50 price tags still on them.
This guy had dollar signs in his eyes. He mentioned that he saw some of them listed on eBay for $100 each. So I checked. Yes, there were copies of these for sale at that amount. But the sold auctions told a different story. The same car had expired without bids for $10 many times!
The guy didn't want to accept my word so I guess he shopped these around. A month later he got back to me that he'd sell them for $5 each. I still wasn't a buyer. I doubt I would've gone and picked them up if they were free!
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I've been agonizing over the trunk load of stamps I bought for $400 from an estate.
At last count I had $1,800 FV of Canada MNH from the 1980s to current but read in a discussion group elsewhere that they aren't of much any interest to "real collectors" and are really just useful for postage so generally sold at 60-70% of FV. So I wallpapered my daughter's room with them.
I also uncovered a box of Christmas seals, around 200 with some from the 1930s, but I remember reading that they aren't real stamps so "real collectors" wouldn't be interested. Accordingly, I lined my cat's litter box with them.
Now I see CTOs (and numerous alphanumeric variations) are also highly questionable, if not downright insulting to "real collectors". So although superficially beautiful to look at, and interesting to show to naive plebians ("plebeians" to the cunning linguists out there, before you correct me) to avoid professional embarassment I've had about 100,000 of the most egregious Commie and Sand Dune issues shredded and turned into duvets for the homeless.
So I now feel I'm on the philatelic moral high ground. And with just one stamp remaining - a jolly good SON postally-used, certified, VF, gum intact, 1940 1c Washington Irving - I no longer have the wasteful sorting and being pleasantly surprised nonsense to deal with.
Also, I no longer have to worry that I am wasting time with something that I thought was a hobby intended to bring joy to myself and others; but instead should properly be a pedantic exercise in accumulating only the most pristine and praiseworthy selection of "up-to-lofty-standards" bits of rarified paper. And also no more cares that my heirs will probably just end up selling this stockpile of net worth for 12.3% of market value in exchange for crack cocaine. At least that's what I think my seller was planning with his dad's collection that I got for the aforementioned $400.
OK, finished being cranky now. At least I got riled up enough to get backing to sorting...endless sorting...after a 2 month layoff. Thanks.
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Geez, so insightful the system posted it twice. Hmmm...
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"the system posted it twice"
That pesky system. I showed it a thing or two for doing that!
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Uhhh...congrats on your $400 "paper drive" purchase?
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
So lemaven paid four hundred bucks for some entertainment.
Every hour he spends wasting his time on that pile of philatelic waste brings down the cost/hour of entertaining himself with that pile of philatelic waste so, clearly, his best strategy is to spend more time sorting, examining, albumizing ... because the more time he puts in, the lower the cost/hour he is paying for his entertainment.
Go for it, fella!
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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David,
actually, sounds like you got an incredible deal. On the Canadian MNH alone, even at 60% return, you've got a 2.5X ROI, and all the rest is gravy, or cat litter, as you wish.
speaking of wishing, I wish you hadn't destroyed the seals. I'd have gladly taken them from you. Whether I would have paid much, if anything, who knows, it all depends. It is true, they are not stamps, but, then, neither are loonies, toonies, and copies of the constitution signed by all the delegates to the Constitutional congress.
And, CTOs, hopefully you read ALL the comments; some are dismissive, some are effusive, and all represent individual PoVs. I have, as I wrote, many CTOs in my Czech collection and am quite fine that; I would replace them with used copies if they were available, but they're not.
If this was tong in cheek, I hope you removed the litter before inserting; if real crankiness, I think you only read some of the comments and didn't do the math.
David
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re: talking about CTOs
"I had always thought of stamps as payment for services, it never occurred to me that many were printed solely as a product for sale. Interesting."
"I had always thought of stamps as payment for services, it never occurred to me that many were printed solely as a product for sale. Interesting."
I was thinking; the stamps bought as MNH - such as bought from the US Fulfillment Services - they were sold just for profit, they are not intended to do postal service; are they not the same as the CTO's?
When I collect a topical and they are difficult to obtain postally used, I just get the CTO - and I am happy with it!
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David, yes it was (much) more tongue in cheek. I actually did on a previous attempt to restart collecting 15 years ago toss some TB seals (I think they were "Muskoka Home For Consumptives" issues circa 1912-20 (?) Was in a stamp shop later and saw some similar items. Mentioned it to the dealer and another customer just about had a heart attack - it was his collecting specialty. I found a nice envelope with a related postmark and dropped it off for the guy as my mea culpa.
I have found some related things that maybe I can post some pictures of for comments.
Cheers.
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Jopie, that's an interesting perspective on stamps bought by collectors directly from a post office. I'm sure that is certainly how the post office views it. However, those stamps are still "live", and can be used for postage at any time. Canceled to order stamps are done. They will never be able to see postal duty. Once sold, a CTO is pure profit.
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"... best strategy is to spend more time sorting, examining, albumizing ... because the more time he puts in, the lower the cost/hour he is paying for his entertainment."
Thanks for the Labor Economics lesson Pikester. Where the heck were you when I was wasting money on another stupid idea (getting an MBA). I could have gone to the "Ikey College of Patronizing Omniscience" instead and put the money into some real stamps.
Um, now that I think of it I should declare the aforementioned comment is intended in good humor assuming you're doing a schtick (my own discussion contributions are 72% stupid humor, 14% incisive social commentary, and 16% pretending to do intellectual stuff so my wife won't give me more chores). I based this on your use of the word "albumizing" which I take as a sly, fun-loving application of a made-up word that an actual Persnickety Philatelist would not dare use in polite company. However, I admit to struggling with some of your Turing-Babylon-Klingon references and commentary, so if you are serious that things you don't collect are philatelic waste and that entertainment is not a suitable reason to buy or paw through stamps, then I offer my apologies. I didn't mean to sound...uh...mean. Oh yeah, and condolences to Mrs. PikeAttolah.
Getting serious now (seriously) I would like to benefit from your take on serious collecting. A-Ra posts some of his stuff which I find beautiful to look at and quite instructive. Any chance you'd do something similar? I'd love to see what you have that makes you proud. Maybe you'll save me from the path of self-inflicted ruin on which I currently stumble.
Cheers.
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"... Um, now that I think of it I should declare the aforementioned comment is intended in good humor ..."
Hey! You're they guy who said that he was using the stuff for kitty litter, and I'm the one who gets asked:
"... if you are serious that things you don't collect are philatelic waste and that entertainment is not a suitable reason ..."
On the contrary, I've posted more than once, in more than one venue, that I get enough fun out of rutting thru a bargain box that I could pay for my treasures, walk outside, dump them in the trash, and feel that I did okay.
It's all $/hr to me ... what I am paying to amuse myself.
I'm not in it for the 'investment', or the competition, or the pride, just the fun.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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"I'd love to see what you have that makes you proud."
Have to be careful who you say that to!
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"I was thinking; the stamps bought as MNH - such as bought from the US Fulfillment Services - they were sold just for profit, they are not intended to do postal service; are they not the same as the CTO's? "
Yes. Long and colorful sets of stamps for Christmas from Arab Sheikdoms with huge face values! This kind of stamp was aimed at collectors and back in the days I was collecting, people wondered if these stamps had ever seen the issuing countries. Stamps would go right from printers in Europe direct to stamp dealers. So there are countries (some aren't even countries) that you just don't bother collecting.
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re: talking about CTOs
CTOs may not be to everyone's liking but that does not mean they are not postage stamps, nor that they cannot be collected - that in itself is a collecting area - a thematic or topical collection.
You are correct that some "countries" issued CTOs that never saw the light of day in the region - but these can be collected. The United Arab Emirates is the official UPU postage stamp issuing entity on part of the Arabian peninsula but each emirate has issued local post stamps, cinderellas, that are collectible - either for the emirate or selected stamps for topical collections (art, religion, leaders, animals, transporation, etc.).
Please don't tell anyone not to collect something - every stamp, real or fake is collectible and it is up to each of us to decide what we want to collect.
Also, CTOs are not valued like postally used stamps so if buying them, be careful about what you pay. Some dealers charge high prices that are way out of line. CTOs are not investment stamps and should not be considered as such.
OK - I've said my piece - I feel better.
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re: talking about CTOs
"Have to be careful who you say that to!"
Yeah, Michael sent me a private message with a picture of his "pride and joy". I opened it while I was talking to my wife. She simply walked away saying, "Bet you won't get that thing in a Harris Album". I'm seriously considering switching to the Numismatic gang...
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re: talking about CTOs
Recycling an old Cheech'n'Chong joke ... priceless!
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re: talking about CTOs
"CTOs may not be to everyone's liking but that does not mean they are not postage stamps"
They're certainly no worse than collecting unused German inflation era issues which are rivalled, perhaps, only by Hungarian CTO's in their ubiquitousness and lack of monetary value.
Ted
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
28 Mar 2016
04:38:02am
re: talking about CTOs
RE:" that does not mean they are not postage stamps"
and
"They're certainly no worse than collecting unused German inflation era issues"
I'm afraid they are not postage stamps since their connection with postage, the operative word is at the very best tenuous. CTOs can and should be collected for what they are, first cousins to Jam Jar Labels or Banana stickers.
" unused German inflation era issues " on the other hand were initially printed for use as postage and some were so used. As to worse, worser or better that is a personal subjective decision as they are clearly postage stamps.
Neither comment (of mine) means a person interested in an accumulation of tiny illustrations of some favorite topic should not collect what they enjoy.
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re: talking about CTOs
i'm glad that the majority help to explain a thing in neutral terms, thereby allowing folks an opportunity to decide for themselves.
it's the way I hope things are, and will be, done
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re: talking about CTOs
"... I'm afraid they are not postage stamps since their connection with postage, the operative word is at the very best tenuous ..."
Fear on:
- proofs & essays are not postage stamps
- revenue stamps are not postage stamps
- postal cards & aerograms & registry envelopes are not postage stamps
- the bits of selvage attached to a plate block are not postage stamps
- Israeli tabs & American Mr Zip markings are not postage stamps
- US Postal Bulletins (et al) are not postage stamps
- First Day ceremonial items are not postage stamps
- postmarks (must I itemize?) are not postage stamps
- RPO route maps & timetables are not postage stamps
- postal clerk handstamps & handstampings are not postage stamps
- USPOD training stamps are not postage stamps
- postage meter imprints are not postage stamps
- postal savings stamps (and their trifolds) are not postage stamps
- caffeinated coffee grounds are not postage stamps
Keep The One Pure Faith, Forum Brother!
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: talking about CTOs
For crying out loud, ikey, you left off folded letters/stampless covers.
Ted
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re: talking about CTOs
Vayikra (Leviticus) 23:22
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re: talking about CTOs
etiquettes, cachets, free franks from APOs and FPOs and BPOs are all not stamps, nor are seals of any kind (official and fundraising)
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re: talking about CTOs
Quote cdj1122...
RE:" [b]that does not mean they are not postage stamps[/b]"
and
"[b]They're certainly no worse than collecting unused German inflation era issues[/b]"
I'm afraid they are not postage stamps since their connection with postage, the operative word is at the very best tenuous. CTOs can and should be collected for what they are, first cousins to Jam Jar Labels or Banana stickers.
" [b]unused German inflation era issues[/b] " on the other hand were initially printed for use as postage and some were so used. As to worse, worser or better that is a personal subjective decision as they are clearly postage stamps.
Neither comment (of mine) means a person interested in an accumulation of tiny illustrations of some favorite topic should not collect what they enjoy.
Just like US #3 and #4 are not postage stamps but are merely imitations, fakes, cheesy garbage, or collectible treasures, depending on your point of view. They will never appear legitimately on cover and and yet they sell for significantly more than the value of #1 and #2. I suppose the folks that despise CTOs would also relegate this US garbage to the scrap heap, or maybe become purely mercenary and sell these cheesy labels for a profit.
Quotation from 1847usa site regarding these issues says it perfectly (emphasis mine):
"Special printing issues had been demonetized effective July 1, 1851. Therefore, these official reproductions of the Issue of 1847 were never valid for postage and no legitimate covers can exist. They were available for sale, by special application to the Post Office Department, starting about March 27, 1875"
http://stampsmarter.com/1847usa/1847identifier.htm
Corrupt US PO selling reprints for a profit at the expense of legitimate collectors. No worse than the worst offending dune countries.
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10:36:34pm
re: talking about CTOs
*hugs his rattlesnake island cover and 'notstamps' collection* Im a hoarder, i like it all lol
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
29 Mar 2016
04:48:26pm
re: talking about CTOs
It isn't really a matter of despising "CTOs" it is the act of calling a shovel a shovel, and not a pitchfork.
I've seen far too many somewhat inexperienced collectors display pages and pages of CTOs in an album that is worth far more than the entire collection of labels.
That they enjoy them and are able to proudly display them is one thing. But then the day comes when they discover, or worse, are told in public at a dealer's counter on a Saturday morning, that those shrewdly marketed items are not postage stamps, never were to the distant land whose name is inscribed and have a real value just slightly exceeding a twice used teabag.
I've seen that scenario acted out many times and hate the choked back tears, and watching the smiles that begin to turn to suspicion and lay the groundwork for the belief that stamping is full of thieves. There is the feeling that the bright sun has found a dark cloud to hide behind.
The situation is very different for experienced collectors who might choose to use a CTO to fill a space or tell a story, or even decides to collect sets that are otherwise unavailable or out of their price range. If they are later disappointed they can't complain that they knew not what they were doing.
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Ok, seems like I'm missing something here. Whats the difference in a country issuing CTOs and a country like Republique de Benin cranking out mint sheets by the gazillion covering every topical ever conceived? I don't think any of that stuff was ever intended, nor will it ever be used to push the mail. Do they also put out CTO stuff?
Ernie
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No difference, ernie. Even if a number of these mint sheets found their way back to their purported country of origin, and were used for postage, the loss of revenue would be negligible compared to the money made from the overseas sales of the mint sheets in the first place.
Ted
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re: talking about CTOs
"But then the day comes when they discover, or worse, are told in public at a dealer's counter on a Saturday morning, that those shrewdly marketed items are not postage stamps, never were to the distant land whose name is inscribed and have a real value just slightly exceeding a twice used teabag."
Umm... And the problem here is...? Most of us '(non)serious collectors' know about 99% of postage stamps issued since 1960s are not even worth the paper they were printed on as. This applies not just CTOs, it applies to most used stamps out there (and mint stuff is not much better when/if becomes invalid as postage).
Most likely dealers refusing CTOs have absolutely no objection with CTOs specifically. It just isn't the type of stuff (value, demand etc) they are looking to sell/buy. Very likely most US dealers wish all 'potential sellers' had copies of US#3 or US#4 instead of hundreds of prexies and 1940/60s stamps, LOL.
Shredded dreams (on both sides) - that's what stamp dealing is all about
-k-
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So the argument against CTO's is the negligible value and disappointing offere by a dealer? How much is that inexperienced collector going to get for an album full of "really old" used US stamps, all of which can be deemed "real," and having "performed their postal duty?"
Ted
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
30 Mar 2016
04:52:33am
re: talking about CTOs
The sentence that follows is;
" ... I've seen that scenario acted out many times and hate the choked back tears, and watching the smiles that begin to turn to suspicion and lay the groundwork for the belief that stamping is full of thieves. ..."
I guess that I should have added the obvious;
" and another potential collector, departs with a less than positive view of the hobby to spread about."
Macy's Department stores had an interesting motto that was actually a guideline; The customer is always right.
They followed that and offered product replacements or refunds to people even those with really whacko claims, because they knew that a happy customer will tell someone or perhaps two people and forget the experience, but a disgruntled customer will tell ten people and bring their unhappy experience up for years thereafter.
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Can somebody post the definition of a "real collector"? I don't think I am one. I don't base my collection around monetary value or absolute perfection in my albums. Only around what is fun and pleasing to ME. Is that bad?
WB
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re: talking about CTOs
All collectibles are always bought cup-half-full, and sold cup-half-empty.
If dealer price spreads were a killer issue, all of the hobbies would be dead.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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re: talking about CTOs
I seldom disagree with Charlie, but I do here.
CTOs are just stamps, no more, no less. That they didn't, and weren't intended to, carry the mail is little different from imperf press sheets and FDCs, both of which have much smaller markets. For ANYONE expecting to get back financially what was put into a stamp collection, there is a rude awakening afoot.
As to dealers looking askance, the clever ones will thank the tike and the idiots will make faces, just like they would when I show up with all my covers, which my wife is hoping will be later today, tomorrow latest.
Really, the main difference between a CTO and the pair of 15c Liberty perfins is that one carried the mail and one didn't; and if the CTOs were Disney or WWII 50-year commems, they'd likely sell for more.
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I think at least with the CTOs, its pretty easy to make the case to the novice collector or the recent heir to a "treasure" of stamps, that the collectibles aren't worth much. But when an heir tries to sell the collection of modern US or modern worldwide (modern meaning 1930's onward) common stamps, which contains legitimate postage stamps, but purchased from Mystic (or a similar dealer) at a huge mark-up, they will have doubts. "But Grandpa bought these stamps from Mystic over a period of fifteen years and spent over $15,000."
Okay, in either case, we should strive to educate collectors that visit this forum and others about these problems. CTOs are no special case.
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
31 Mar 2016
03:06:42am
re: talking about CTOs
" ... Okay, in either case, we should strive to educate collectors that visit this forum and others about these problems. CTOs are no special case. ..."
This is an important point, for not only are there members willing to read and ask questions, there are those who lurk or browse and learn without actively participating.
In a similar vein to some posts about using abbreviations and acronyms without explaining their meaning, we should be careful about broad statements of opinion that may be accepted as fact.
The stamper who does not belong to a local brick and mortar club and avoids keyboards due to his, or her, fear of acquiring a virus through digital contact is the most likely candidate for major disappointment the day that isolated Mystic collector or his hers decides to see what gramper's $15,ooo lifetime expenditure for what I usually refer to as Jam Jar Labels is worth.
If our goal, or one of them as a club, is to expand philatelic knowledge we need to consider the newbie and explain what we mean. I think I visited this and another site on and off for probably two years before I actually got serious about joining.
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re: talking about CTOs
As a hobbyist, when you start to worry more about the value of the stamps than collecting them, then you are no longer a hobbyist.
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"... when you start to worry more about the value ... then you are no longer a hobbyist ..."
That is an admirably bright line, but what are the next few levels to be called?
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"That is an admirably bright line, but what are the next few levels to be called?"
Hobbyist/Dealer
Dealer
Investor
Bill Gross
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I would think that many advanced collectors, while very much aware of the money they are putting into their collections, and the value accumulating therein, would resist being classed as a "Hobbyist/Dealer", if only because they do not buy to sell.
Cheers,
/s/ ikeyPikey
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Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Apr 2016
12:09:23am
re: talking about CTOs
And there are a good sized legion of collectors who obsess over going through the most recent catalog
to update their philatelic spread sheet with condition, source, date of purchase
(or possession), initial cost, as well as the catalog's numerical comparative rarity listing, followed
by a row of totals at the bottom of the page..
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
Ooops, I dozed off contemplating the selling value of my little stamp accumulation.
Time for bed for me.
Moderator's note: This message was edited to reformat it to fit the screen.
(Modified by Moderator on 2016-04-01 13:34:24)
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re: talking about CTOs
"
"That is an admirably bright line, but what are the next few levels to be called?"
"
"Hobbyist/Dealer
Dealer
Investor
Bill Gross"
Don't forget this level:
Widow regretting spouse spent life savings on stamps
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re: talking about CTOs
Thank you moderator.
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