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United States/Stamps : Used Farley?

 

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Larryc3a
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06 Nov 2009
05:48:32pm
OK. Stupid question of the day. I have a horizontal pair of Farleys #757 with postmark cancellations on them. So if they were issued without gum, how did people use them? Surely they weren't slathered with some home-made glue and then subsequently soaked off the cover. Doesn't make sense. Enlighten me.
Larry
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Harley

07 Nov 2009
02:17:44am
re: Used Farley?

Larry,
do you have a Scott catalogue?
If so look at the description right at the beginning of the Special Printing (Nos. 752-771 inclusive).
It says-- Issuance of the following 20 stamps in complete sheets resulted from the protest of collectors and others at the practice of presenting,,to certain government officials,,complete sheets of unsevered panes, imperforate (except nos. 752 and 753 and generally ungummed.
next---
"Designs of Commemorative Issues"
NOTE: In 1940 the P.O. Department offered to and did gum full sheets of Nos. 756-765 and 769-770 sent in by owners.No other special printings were accepted for gumming.

So there were gummed stamps of the imperf National Parks Issue. And the horizontal pair of 757 with postmark could very well be one of these gummed by request stamps.

On the other hand, someone could have used a gum solution on one of the original ungummed issue. But it would have to be either a dealer or collector of that time period.The imperfs were not available over the counter at the majority of local post offices.
It was at the time of the great depression and I doubt if the average citizen was buying sheets of stamps ,most would buy only what they really had to,,one or two ,,to mail something.
1st class domestc letter rate in 1934 was 3 cents. Not 4 cents (pair of 2 cent/ #757).

What type cancel is it? regular post mark or a hand cancel dauber,small circle,large circle--???
At that particular time period,the "MINT ONLY" collecting phase had not really started.And most collectors preferred used sdtamps.So many dealers had full sheets hand canceled at the PO,and broke them up into singles,pairs and blocks , for sell to the collectors.

Doesnt seem right that one would deliberately -devalue a mint stamp,, but at that time,, you sold fewer mint and tons of used.So it was smart business to take a smaller profit,but larger volume,rather than a little bit more and be stuck with a warehouse full of mint stamps.
100 nickles is worth more than 10 dimes.

Anyways, look close at your pair,and try to determine if it looks used,been soaked off an envelope, or a pristine pair,no evidence of use or damage.It may determine if it is a postally used,or a favor hand cancel.
This is where a postal historian,or cover collector, will tell yopu ,"If you had saved it on cover,there would be no doubt of it's authenticity as a used example and canceled/used in the proper time frame of issuance".

BTW//// there are no stupid questions.We sometimes give the wrong answers to questions, but are usually corrected by,or given alternative answers to a question by another collector who may be more informative,or may specialize in any given area of the hobby.
Ask away.You will get answers or opinions from the variety of members whom endeavor to compliment the freindliness and stamp knowlede of the ever growing family of Stamporama.

TOM

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Woodstock

07 Nov 2009
06:43:20am
re: Used Farley?

Hey Larry,
Your post reminded me of something I was witness to some years ago.

In post offices in China as recently as the 1980's, you would have purchased stamps without gum. And yes, there on the typical P.O. counter was a glue pot with brush, allowing customers to "slather" the stamps for use.

bob.jpg

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Bobstamp
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07 Nov 2009
09:34:30am
re: Used Farley?

Post-war Japan issued also several stamps without gum, as did North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Here's a Chinese airmail cover from shortly after the Korean War with a SOS ("Slathered-on-Stamp") clearly showing glue stains.

mig cover

Bob

(Message edited by Bobstamp on November 07, 2009)

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www.ephemeraltreasures.net
Harley

07 Nov 2009
11:24:46am
re: Used Farley?

There were and still are,several countries where the humidity is so high that they issue/d most stamps without gum,and the glue pots are still on the counters of several POs today.

Self adheasive stamps were a God send to many of those countries.
I notice the desert area countries issue almost all if not all,, of their stamps with the water activated gum version.
Tropical rain forest areas dont seem to have this problem Of course there arent a lot of post offices in the rain forest.Most are in metro areas,closer to open country.

Then there are the reused,uncanceled stamps of today( illegal) that get all kinds of modern glues used to stick them on the mail.
I recieved one that I think they used super glue.I would not come off,and appeared to be part of the envelope.Both stamp and envelope became as one entity. Tried watermark fluid,lighter fluid,and warm water.Nothing worked.Tossed as a loss.
I should haved saved it as an example of "what not to use on stamps".
TOM

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Larryc3a
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07 Nov 2009
11:12:59pm
re: Used Farley?

Guys,
Here is an image of the pair I have. It was cancelled in Groveport, OH (a small town near where I grew up and where my grandmother was postmistress a LONG time ago). The date cancelled was 2/29/36 (leap day). I re-examined as Tom suggested. I don't know how to tell if a stamp has been soaked off but I now notice some ink on the back of one. I'm guessing it came from it being laid on top of another recently cancelled stamp. Based on all this...I'm going with a favor cancel. Sound right to you?
Larry
front.jpg
\image(back.jpg}

(Message edited by Larryc3a on November 07, 2009)

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Larryc3a
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07 Nov 2009
11:14:59pm
re: Used Farley?

back.jpg

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Larryc3a
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08 Nov 2009
12:01:03am
re: Used Farley?

And here is another example I found.
756f.jpg
756b.jpg

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Harley

08 Nov 2009
11:13:16am
re: Used Farley?

Larry,

the 2 cent pair may have been a favor cancel,but not by a dealer,,the crooked cut at top gives that away.A dealer would have made neat cuts.

The 1 cent Yosemite looks like a machine cancel,,with the wavy lines to the right. It may have been used on mail to get a canceled stamp,but still,,a postally used example.

As I said before,a guarenteed proof of postally used,is the entire envelope with the cancel touching part of the stamp (tied on).
This is good for high value stamps,but a real accumulateing adventure to get all the common used/on cover.
I know,I've been collecting coil issues on cover,with each cancel date of the year.For modern stamps of cource.For most recent issue rates are normally only for one year,two at the most. So I cut down to at least one for each of the 12 months of the year,and a few special dates.Still that's about 200 covers per year. But easier than the 1300 to 1500 per year.

BTW / Nice scans.

TOM

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amsd
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Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads

09 Nov 2009
10:48:31am

Auctions
re: Used Farley?

the 1c does look like a machine cancel. The odd thing about the pair of 2c is the relationship of the two cancels to each other; i'd expect to see them both with the same aspect; here they are tete beche to each other. the clerk would have had to turn his wrist completely to accomplish this, and that doesnt' see right. There might be some offsetting of the cancel on the right side reverse of one. maybe....

And I disagree wtih Tom's remark about postal use docmented by a tying cancel: every FDC and event cover has that, but those covers have not necessarily seen the inside of a carrier's bag. It's when you begin to see additional markings, like the spray-on bar codes and receiving cancels that use is truly documented.

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"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link.php?PLJZJP
Harley

09 Nov 2009
03:43:32pm
re: Used Farley?

Envelopeplease,
I agree to disagree on the tying cancel.
I was intending to note that the cancel,preferably a machine cancel,on a normal piece of mail- postally used.
One can usually tell by the extra things on a cover if it is a FDC,Event,Philatelic,or a commercial,or domestic cover that saw regular postal duty.
Although it is argued that some covers classified as Philatelic in nature,are only covers that one created,just to get a stamp canceled,or an on cover example of a certain stamp. But to make it postally used,it should recieve a machine type cancel,rather than hand canceled/hand back.
Or in some cases,I've recieved booklet panes,still intact on the backing,with multiple cancels--These stamps saw no postal duty. But once removed from the backing could fool most beginners as genuine postally used stamps. Most often,the cancels are large round date daubers,and usually in red ink.
But,,there's always a BUT,, Larger "flats", boxes,or bulky mail may recieve the same red cancel.So this is not a fool proof <tag> that it's not a postally used stamp.

The idea is to be warry of some used stamps. The more common dont really matter ..in the monetary sense. But there are several stamps that are valued much higher as used versus mint. And these are only recognized if it has the correct cancel.And more valuable if on a "postally used cover".
TOM

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Larryc3a

06 Nov 2009
05:48:32pm

OK. Stupid question of the day. I have a horizontal pair of Farleys #757 with postmark cancellations on them. So if they were issued without gum, how did people use them? Surely they weren't slathered with some home-made glue and then subsequently soaked off the cover. Doesn't make sense. Enlighten me.
Larry

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this post
Harley

07 Nov 2009
02:17:44am

re: Used Farley?

Larry,
do you have a Scott catalogue?
If so look at the description right at the beginning of the Special Printing (Nos. 752-771 inclusive).
It says-- Issuance of the following 20 stamps in complete sheets resulted from the protest of collectors and others at the practice of presenting,,to certain government officials,,complete sheets of unsevered panes, imperforate (except nos. 752 and 753 and generally ungummed.
next---
"Designs of Commemorative Issues"
NOTE: In 1940 the P.O. Department offered to and did gum full sheets of Nos. 756-765 and 769-770 sent in by owners.No other special printings were accepted for gumming.

So there were gummed stamps of the imperf National Parks Issue. And the horizontal pair of 757 with postmark could very well be one of these gummed by request stamps.

On the other hand, someone could have used a gum solution on one of the original ungummed issue. But it would have to be either a dealer or collector of that time period.The imperfs were not available over the counter at the majority of local post offices.
It was at the time of the great depression and I doubt if the average citizen was buying sheets of stamps ,most would buy only what they really had to,,one or two ,,to mail something.
1st class domestc letter rate in 1934 was 3 cents. Not 4 cents (pair of 2 cent/ #757).

What type cancel is it? regular post mark or a hand cancel dauber,small circle,large circle--???
At that particular time period,the "MINT ONLY" collecting phase had not really started.And most collectors preferred used sdtamps.So many dealers had full sheets hand canceled at the PO,and broke them up into singles,pairs and blocks , for sell to the collectors.

Doesnt seem right that one would deliberately -devalue a mint stamp,, but at that time,, you sold fewer mint and tons of used.So it was smart business to take a smaller profit,but larger volume,rather than a little bit more and be stuck with a warehouse full of mint stamps.
100 nickles is worth more than 10 dimes.

Anyways, look close at your pair,and try to determine if it looks used,been soaked off an envelope, or a pristine pair,no evidence of use or damage.It may determine if it is a postally used,or a favor hand cancel.
This is where a postal historian,or cover collector, will tell yopu ,"If you had saved it on cover,there would be no doubt of it's authenticity as a used example and canceled/used in the proper time frame of issuance".

BTW//// there are no stupid questions.We sometimes give the wrong answers to questions, but are usually corrected by,or given alternative answers to a question by another collector who may be more informative,or may specialize in any given area of the hobby.
Ask away.You will get answers or opinions from the variety of members whom endeavor to compliment the freindliness and stamp knowlede of the ever growing family of Stamporama.

TOM

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Woodstock

07 Nov 2009
06:43:20am

re: Used Farley?

Hey Larry,
Your post reminded me of something I was witness to some years ago.

In post offices in China as recently as the 1980's, you would have purchased stamps without gum. And yes, there on the typical P.O. counter was a glue pot with brush, allowing customers to "slather" the stamps for use.

bob.jpg

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Members Picture
Bobstamp

07 Nov 2009
09:34:30am

re: Used Farley?

Post-war Japan issued also several stamps without gum, as did North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Here's a Chinese airmail cover from shortly after the Korean War with a SOS ("Slathered-on-Stamp") clearly showing glue stains.

mig cover

Bob

(Message edited by Bobstamp on November 07, 2009)

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www.ephemeraltreasur ...
Harley

07 Nov 2009
11:24:46am

re: Used Farley?

There were and still are,several countries where the humidity is so high that they issue/d most stamps without gum,and the glue pots are still on the counters of several POs today.

Self adheasive stamps were a God send to many of those countries.
I notice the desert area countries issue almost all if not all,, of their stamps with the water activated gum version.
Tropical rain forest areas dont seem to have this problem Of course there arent a lot of post offices in the rain forest.Most are in metro areas,closer to open country.

Then there are the reused,uncanceled stamps of today( illegal) that get all kinds of modern glues used to stick them on the mail.
I recieved one that I think they used super glue.I would not come off,and appeared to be part of the envelope.Both stamp and envelope became as one entity. Tried watermark fluid,lighter fluid,and warm water.Nothing worked.Tossed as a loss.
I should haved saved it as an example of "what not to use on stamps".
TOM

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Larryc3a

07 Nov 2009
11:12:59pm

re: Used Farley?

Guys,
Here is an image of the pair I have. It was cancelled in Groveport, OH (a small town near where I grew up and where my grandmother was postmistress a LONG time ago). The date cancelled was 2/29/36 (leap day). I re-examined as Tom suggested. I don't know how to tell if a stamp has been soaked off but I now notice some ink on the back of one. I'm guessing it came from it being laid on top of another recently cancelled stamp. Based on all this...I'm going with a favor cancel. Sound right to you?
Larry
front.jpg
\image(back.jpg}

(Message edited by Larryc3a on November 07, 2009)

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Larryc3a

07 Nov 2009
11:14:59pm

re: Used Farley?

back.jpg

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Larryc3a

08 Nov 2009
12:01:03am

re: Used Farley?

And here is another example I found.
756f.jpg
756b.jpg

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Harley

08 Nov 2009
11:13:16am

re: Used Farley?

Larry,

the 2 cent pair may have been a favor cancel,but not by a dealer,,the crooked cut at top gives that away.A dealer would have made neat cuts.

The 1 cent Yosemite looks like a machine cancel,,with the wavy lines to the right. It may have been used on mail to get a canceled stamp,but still,,a postally used example.

As I said before,a guarenteed proof of postally used,is the entire envelope with the cancel touching part of the stamp (tied on).
This is good for high value stamps,but a real accumulateing adventure to get all the common used/on cover.
I know,I've been collecting coil issues on cover,with each cancel date of the year.For modern stamps of cource.For most recent issue rates are normally only for one year,two at the most. So I cut down to at least one for each of the 12 months of the year,and a few special dates.Still that's about 200 covers per year. But easier than the 1300 to 1500 per year.

BTW / Nice scans.

TOM

Like
Login to Like
this post
Members Picture
amsd

Editor, Seal News; contributor, JuicyHeads
09 Nov 2009
10:48:31am

Auctions

re: Used Farley?

the 1c does look like a machine cancel. The odd thing about the pair of 2c is the relationship of the two cancels to each other; i'd expect to see them both with the same aspect; here they are tete beche to each other. the clerk would have had to turn his wrist completely to accomplish this, and that doesnt' see right. There might be some offsetting of the cancel on the right side reverse of one. maybe....

And I disagree wtih Tom's remark about postal use docmented by a tying cancel: every FDC and event cover has that, but those covers have not necessarily seen the inside of a carrier's bag. It's when you begin to see additional markings, like the spray-on bar codes and receiving cancels that use is truly documented.

Like
Login to Like
this post

"Save the USPS, buy stamps; save the hobby, use commemoratives"

juicyheads.com/link. ...
Harley

09 Nov 2009
03:43:32pm

re: Used Farley?

Envelopeplease,
I agree to disagree on the tying cancel.
I was intending to note that the cancel,preferably a machine cancel,on a normal piece of mail- postally used.
One can usually tell by the extra things on a cover if it is a FDC,Event,Philatelic,or a commercial,or domestic cover that saw regular postal duty.
Although it is argued that some covers classified as Philatelic in nature,are only covers that one created,just to get a stamp canceled,or an on cover example of a certain stamp. But to make it postally used,it should recieve a machine type cancel,rather than hand canceled/hand back.
Or in some cases,I've recieved booklet panes,still intact on the backing,with multiple cancels--These stamps saw no postal duty. But once removed from the backing could fool most beginners as genuine postally used stamps. Most often,the cancels are large round date daubers,and usually in red ink.
But,,there's always a BUT,, Larger "flats", boxes,or bulky mail may recieve the same red cancel.So this is not a fool proof <tag> that it's not a postally used stamp.

The idea is to be warry of some used stamps. The more common dont really matter ..in the monetary sense. But there are several stamps that are valued much higher as used versus mint. And these are only recognized if it has the correct cancel.And more valuable if on a "postally used cover".
TOM

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