Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Expert opinions are appreciated!
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#353 would get my (inexpert) vote. According to Scott, #384 (an imperf stamp) was privately perforated and sold as #388. The same notation says that copies of #375 had their horizontal perforations removed and were also sold as copies of #388. Your stamp, however, is so badly perforated that it's hard to imagine it's anything but an off-centre, mangled #353.
The used price for a genuine #388 is $200 in my old catalogue, but the value is given in italics, indicating that buyers — and sellers! — should be cautious. Whenever I'm in doubt about the value of a stamp, I assume that it's not rare or valuable.
It's late. I hope I've not gotten numbers mixed up.
Bob
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Cancel contemporary ,machine affixed, Chicago?, genuine coil. Perf and watermark and put in album. Bit rare on the machine cut, I like it.
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I’m still a bit confused. What is the difference between a 353 and a 388. The stamp is not watermarked. Is there a difference in sizes between the two?
The Scott Pocket Guide 2011 describes the 353 and the 388 as the same stamp except for the year printed. My catalog is not of much use
Any way I am just trying to put it in the right spot in my album.
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History- or be doomed to repeat
There are no privatley perfed stamps with scott numbers, forget about it!
Of the perf 12 verticals, 2 are single line Watermark SLW- @ 2 are DLW.
Yours is the wrong design- Type 140 vs 353's 139. establish design first, perf second and watermark if needed. Flat, or rotary press matters too- but not on 353. Knick the corners off an known type stamp into the design border at right angles as a very fat cross....
overlay on a flat press stamp and the flat will match, a rotary much larger than flat
Of every one across my desk, 1/2 the rare coils are fakes.
ID a stamp- not a 353 in your case- are the straight edges parallel? Never wavy- design may angle to edge, but must be same on both ends....
Measured about 25mm for verticals, 21.5 for horizontals
Fakes most often too short or narrow,wrong watermark, and after hundreds, you can tell the shade is right or wrong by sight.
Yours looks genuine, maybe perf 10 rotary 444 by color best guess from here.
Good luck
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Thank you Brianbeeeker for a clear short course. You reminded me of a couple of "must do's" in ID-ing stamps, and also why I stopped collecting these things years ago! Proof that I'm a generalist, not a specialist.
I think that there is some confusion about my comments concerning faked #388s. I didn't mean to say that Scott lists faked stamps per se, just that the catalogue notes their existence.
General comment: A Stamporama FAQ providing the sequence of steps in identifying difficult stamps would be useful. It would also be useful if queries about stamps included large, hi-res images. The image which is the subject of this thread is just not clear enough to give more than vague hints about identity, considering the great number of varieties in this issue.
Bob
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Bob,
Noted. I'm also doing something about Micro-Printing as well as they have been a royal PIA for me in the past and I've had to make cheat sheets to help me ID them as well.
Pat
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OK- here's a method-45 years, learned a bit. Get a scott catalogue, copy the front stamp ID section and make notes- for me I take scans, cut out the pertinent part and put them together, say 39 or 41 Cent flags, get the details that ID the issue and then make notes and copy again, put in a binder inside of sleeves. Most dealers cant count past 700, and all the rest is errors to them. Getting every variety of all the post- classic is harder than the classics. Ever notice the fuss about early shades, say 27-30 and some 4th bureaus, and now nothing? Well, I think they are wrong, I have spent and enjoyed all they subtle varieties myself. Quiz 'em about bells or flags or try to buy them- they can't help you much. How bout 634 type? Electric eye, flat, rotary, print errors.....God, I love this stuff too much. enjoy
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I just love this club. It makes me realize I know less about stamps then I know. I really need to get a specialized catalog from Santa. The only facts I am sure of on this stamp is that is is perf 12 and not watermarked. It could be a fake 353 or 388.
Thanks for the advice!
Mike
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My question is, why would anyone bother to fake a stamp and make it a worthless filler?
Bob
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Get cheap stamps and use them to practice.
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Can someone help identify this perforation
? 
It looks to me like some sort of pin perf but I don't know if they exist on US stamps. I can't imagine why anyone would want to perf it themselves for fun or profit?
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Crudely faked perfs on an imperforate stamp. Notice the margins are much too large, and the vertical perfs are not parallel to the design frame.
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I just returned from a meeting of the collectors club of Akron where we had a fantastic presentation on these ! It was unbelievable the knowlege that goes into properly IDing them. If I remember properly he said there are 250 varieties of the design. The perfs, the cuts, watermarks, and spacing between the impressions were all vital elements. Gonna have to double check all mine ! If anyone has great interest in these I can get the name of the presenter.
Jere
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I agree with michael78651. I count 13-14 perf holes across the top. No WF that I am aware of has that many. Not the perf 12,11 and certainly not the perf 10. In addition to Jere's offer to provide you the name of the presenter of information on the WF, I recommend The Expert's Book, A Practical Guide to the Authentication of United States Stamps. Washington/Franklin Issues 1908-1923. Paul W. Schmid.
Mel
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I am really not an expert on anything U.S., but we quite recently had a discussion on private and postmaster separations of W/F stamps. So the first step might be to identify the imperforated stamp and find out if any privately and/or postmaster-induced perforations are known for that stamp. The missing perf on the bottom might indicate a stamp from the bottom row of the sheet where application of perforation was not necessary.
The torn tips of the perforations look good on the scan. They do not obviously suggest fabrication from a single imperforated stamp to me, because in that case the tips would be cut, and not torn. Of course, one might consider fabrication in a block, and then tearing out individual stamps, but the machine cancellation makes that unlikely.
Arno
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There is a possibility the perfs are the "Kansas City " Perfs Scott #408-409 where perforated. you would need to get a Certification to be positive about this.
Heres a link showing the perfs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/408-PLATE-BLOCK-KANSAS-CITY-PERFS-VF-LH-RARE-/190797127893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6c6520d5
Ross
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Highly recommend the following web site. Has a very good explination of all the different private perforations as well as excellent identification tools for all Washington/Franklins.
http://www.1847usa.com/
Mel
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-10-16 16:53:07)
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After going back and looking at the previous discussion mentioned by Arno, it appears that the perferations may be called "Wilson Roulette" as indicated by the scan from PF. The perfs look like pin holes and they are not straight. In fact they seem to be angled like the scan posted by Albacore. My guess.
Mel
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As for the first stamp posted at the start of this message...
"I just love this club. It makes me realize I know less about stamps then I know. I really need to get a specialized catalog from Santa. The only facts I am sure of on this stamp is that is is perf 12 and not watermarked. It could be a fake 353 or 388. "
This stamp is not perf 12. Are you using a perforation gauge or just counting the holes?
Regarding the second stamp...
"There is a possibility the perfs are the "Kansas City " Perfs Scott #408-409 where perforated. you would need to get a Certification to be positive about this."
Not a Kansas City perforation. First, not a roulette and not the correct gauge.
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Ok. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the 1st stamp posted is not even in the ballpark of a #353 which would have "TWO CENTS" inscribed on the stamp. This specimen has "2 CENTS". Being Unwatermarked, it would be a #453. It is clearly a Type I from the image.
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Michael - Your stamp is Offset Printed and looks like a Type IV based on the toga button design. It would be a #526, however I do not recognize the perforation. A #526 should be perf 11. It is possible that this was a #532 Imperforate and privately perforated, but then I do not understand the straight cut at the bottom ??? Schermack was the only vending machine company that used a #532 and it was perforated with two vertical notches - Type III. So what you have is unusual, but it definitely an offset print and Type IV. Maybe someone else has some insight into the perforation. Hope this helps - Dan
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After reviewing my files, I found this nice example of the Kansas City Roulettes. Does look similar to Michael's specimen. The pin holes were made by hand with a roller used for marking cloth for sewing. Problem is, there are many fakes. These need to be authenticated by an expert.
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The Swedish Tiger site shows some Kansas City roulettes at the bottom of this page:
http://www.theswedishtiger.com/x1912a.htm
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Thanks very much everybody for comments and advice - it is very much appreciated, I am a New Zealander who has only taken up US stamps to collect in the last ten years or so, so I don't know that I will easily be able to find anyone here who can help with certification. I did not know that there were any private perforations so am grateful for the information. It looks to me from what has been said that the most likely avenue to start with is the "Wilson" perforation - I think that DCSStamps block might also be Wilson's from what I found in this Siegel catalogue Sale 967 Lot 4650 2008-12-16
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Michael - I agree that you may have a Wilson Roulette. I was not aware of these. These were produced 9 years later than the Kansas City roulettes and were Offset Printing. It appears that your stamps is possibly a Scott's #532 Imperforate Type IV and had the roulette perfs added. It could have been done by Wilson, or anyone. Other than statement from Herman Herst that J. Hull Wilson made them, there is no official recognition for them. Additionally, it appears that the bank in Pittsburg where they were made used them internally for sending mail and they were never openly sold to the public.
If you look closely at the previous image I posted you will note that the stamps are Flat Plate printed and not Offset. The Kansas City roulettes were issued in 1914 and the Wilsons were first introduced sometime late in 1923, however are not officially recognized by Scott's. Not sure anyone even knows how many were made. We know there were 400 sheets of the Kansas City roulettes.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Wilson's. I was not aware of them. Interesting find.
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DCS This summary indicates that Wilson perfed stocks of Type Va and Type IV offset and also Type I 1916 "offset" - my Scott pocket catalogue is insufficient to identify what the last may be. http://www.americanstamphistory.com/downloads/05-Stamp%20Exh-Perfor.pdf
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Aw. Research pays off. This provided a lot more information than I had known before. But know that I know the history about the Wilson Perforations, I don't know how to value them. Anyone can do perforations on officially issued imperforate stamps and they have. Not sure this makes them worth more or less than imperforate as issued. They are unusual though and there is probably collectors that seek these un-official varieties.
Such as I have a Washington/Franklin with a perf 13 1/2 in addition it has a Schermack Type II perforation. Obviously a variety of some kind, but not recorded anywhere I have found.
Thanks again for the lead on the Perforation History webpage. Everyday you do not learn something new is a wasted day. This made my day for me.
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Dan - glad to hear my last made your day. It looks like the Type I "offset" may be on Scott 482 from this entry in a Spinks catalogue which also gives some indication of value for stamps on cover at any rate. http://stampauctionnetwork.com/f/f11752.cfm
As I said, my small catalogue doesn't identify whether Scott 482 is flat plate printed or indeed offset. Maybe you can let me know?
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Michael - As far as I know there is no Type I Offset stamps. Offsets were all Type IV to Type VII.
The Scott's 482 is an imperforate Flat Plate, unwatermarked. The 482A is the valuable one and is the same except in a Deep Rose color. Valued to $65,000.
I will send you a copy of my cheat sheets. - Dan
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I am doubting my own judgement identifying this stamp on a couple levels. First the perferations are cut off on the left side, second there appears to be a edge line from an adjoining stamp on the right perferations. Is this a 353 or a repeferated stamp?
Expert opinions are appreciated!
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
#353 would get my (inexpert) vote. According to Scott, #384 (an imperf stamp) was privately perforated and sold as #388. The same notation says that copies of #375 had their horizontal perforations removed and were also sold as copies of #388. Your stamp, however, is so badly perforated that it's hard to imagine it's anything but an off-centre, mangled #353.
The used price for a genuine #388 is $200 in my old catalogue, but the value is given in italics, indicating that buyers — and sellers! — should be cautious. Whenever I'm in doubt about the value of a stamp, I assume that it's not rare or valuable.
It's late. I hope I've not gotten numbers mixed up.
Bob
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02:09:49am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Cancel contemporary ,machine affixed, Chicago?, genuine coil. Perf and watermark and put in album. Bit rare on the machine cut, I like it.
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
I’m still a bit confused. What is the difference between a 353 and a 388. The stamp is not watermarked. Is there a difference in sizes between the two?
The Scott Pocket Guide 2011 describes the 353 and the 388 as the same stamp except for the year printed. My catalog is not of much use
Any way I am just trying to put it in the right spot in my album.
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09:01:03am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
History- or be doomed to repeat
There are no privatley perfed stamps with scott numbers, forget about it!
Of the perf 12 verticals, 2 are single line Watermark SLW- @ 2 are DLW.
Yours is the wrong design- Type 140 vs 353's 139. establish design first, perf second and watermark if needed. Flat, or rotary press matters too- but not on 353. Knick the corners off an known type stamp into the design border at right angles as a very fat cross....
overlay on a flat press stamp and the flat will match, a rotary much larger than flat
Of every one across my desk, 1/2 the rare coils are fakes.
ID a stamp- not a 353 in your case- are the straight edges parallel? Never wavy- design may angle to edge, but must be same on both ends....
Measured about 25mm for verticals, 21.5 for horizontals
Fakes most often too short or narrow,wrong watermark, and after hundreds, you can tell the shade is right or wrong by sight.
Yours looks genuine, maybe perf 10 rotary 444 by color best guess from here.
Good luck
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Thank you Brianbeeeker for a clear short course. You reminded me of a couple of "must do's" in ID-ing stamps, and also why I stopped collecting these things years ago! Proof that I'm a generalist, not a specialist.
I think that there is some confusion about my comments concerning faked #388s. I didn't mean to say that Scott lists faked stamps per se, just that the catalogue notes their existence.
General comment: A Stamporama FAQ providing the sequence of steps in identifying difficult stamps would be useful. It would also be useful if queries about stamps included large, hi-res images. The image which is the subject of this thread is just not clear enough to give more than vague hints about identity, considering the great number of varieties in this issue.
Bob
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Bob,
Noted. I'm also doing something about Micro-Printing as well as they have been a royal PIA for me in the past and I've had to make cheat sheets to help me ID them as well.
Pat
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07:33:53pm
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
OK- here's a method-45 years, learned a bit. Get a scott catalogue, copy the front stamp ID section and make notes- for me I take scans, cut out the pertinent part and put them together, say 39 or 41 Cent flags, get the details that ID the issue and then make notes and copy again, put in a binder inside of sleeves. Most dealers cant count past 700, and all the rest is errors to them. Getting every variety of all the post- classic is harder than the classics. Ever notice the fuss about early shades, say 27-30 and some 4th bureaus, and now nothing? Well, I think they are wrong, I have spent and enjoyed all they subtle varieties myself. Quiz 'em about bells or flags or try to buy them- they can't help you much. How bout 634 type? Electric eye, flat, rotary, print errors.....God, I love this stuff too much. enjoy
Login to Like
this post
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
I just love this club. It makes me realize I know less about stamps then I know. I really need to get a specialized catalog from Santa. The only facts I am sure of on this stamp is that is is perf 12 and not watermarked. It could be a fake 353 or 388.
Thanks for the advice!
Mike
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
My question is, why would anyone bother to fake a stamp and make it a worthless filler?
Bob
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Get cheap stamps and use them to practice.
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12:17:40am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Can someone help identify this perforation? It looks to me like some sort of pin perf but I don't know if they exist on US stamps. I can't imagine why anyone would want to perf it themselves for fun or profit?
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Crudely faked perfs on an imperforate stamp. Notice the margins are much too large, and the vertical perfs are not parallel to the design frame.
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01:31:40am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
I just returned from a meeting of the collectors club of Akron where we had a fantastic presentation on these ! It was unbelievable the knowlege that goes into properly IDing them. If I remember properly he said there are 250 varieties of the design. The perfs, the cuts, watermarks, and spacing between the impressions were all vital elements. Gonna have to double check all mine ! If anyone has great interest in these I can get the name of the presenter.
Jere
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Approvals
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
I agree with michael78651. I count 13-14 perf holes across the top. No WF that I am aware of has that many. Not the perf 12,11 and certainly not the perf 10. In addition to Jere's offer to provide you the name of the presenter of information on the WF, I recommend The Expert's Book, A Practical Guide to the Authentication of United States Stamps. Washington/Franklin Issues 1908-1923. Paul W. Schmid.
Mel
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
I am really not an expert on anything U.S., but we quite recently had a discussion on private and postmaster separations of W/F stamps. So the first step might be to identify the imperforated stamp and find out if any privately and/or postmaster-induced perforations are known for that stamp. The missing perf on the bottom might indicate a stamp from the bottom row of the sheet where application of perforation was not necessary.
The torn tips of the perforations look good on the scan. They do not obviously suggest fabrication from a single imperforated stamp to me, because in that case the tips would be cut, and not torn. Of course, one might consider fabrication in a block, and then tearing out individual stamps, but the machine cancellation makes that unlikely.
Arno
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To error is human -to really fowl things up takes a computer
16 Oct 2013
09:24:12am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
There is a possibility the perfs are the "Kansas City " Perfs Scott #408-409 where perforated. you would need to get a Certification to be positive about this.
Heres a link showing the perfs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/408-PLATE-BLOCK-KANSAS-CITY-PERFS-VF-LH-RARE-/190797127893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6c6520d5
Ross
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Approvals
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Highly recommend the following web site. Has a very good explination of all the different private perforations as well as excellent identification tools for all Washington/Franklins.
http://www.1847usa.com/
Mel
(Modified by Moderator on 2013-10-16 16:53:07)
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Approvals
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
After going back and looking at the previous discussion mentioned by Arno, it appears that the perferations may be called "Wilson Roulette" as indicated by the scan from PF. The perfs look like pin holes and they are not straight. In fact they seem to be angled like the scan posted by Albacore. My guess.
Mel
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
As for the first stamp posted at the start of this message...
"I just love this club. It makes me realize I know less about stamps then I know. I really need to get a specialized catalog from Santa. The only facts I am sure of on this stamp is that is is perf 12 and not watermarked. It could be a fake 353 or 388. "
This stamp is not perf 12. Are you using a perforation gauge or just counting the holes?
Regarding the second stamp...
"There is a possibility the perfs are the "Kansas City " Perfs Scott #408-409 where perforated. you would need to get a Certification to be positive about this."
Not a Kansas City perforation. First, not a roulette and not the correct gauge.
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Ok. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the 1st stamp posted is not even in the ballpark of a #353 which would have "TWO CENTS" inscribed on the stamp. This specimen has "2 CENTS". Being Unwatermarked, it would be a #453. It is clearly a Type I from the image.
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Michael - Your stamp is Offset Printed and looks like a Type IV based on the toga button design. It would be a #526, however I do not recognize the perforation. A #526 should be perf 11. It is possible that this was a #532 Imperforate and privately perforated, but then I do not understand the straight cut at the bottom ??? Schermack was the only vending machine company that used a #532 and it was perforated with two vertical notches - Type III. So what you have is unusual, but it definitely an offset print and Type IV. Maybe someone else has some insight into the perforation. Hope this helps - Dan
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
After reviewing my files, I found this nice example of the Kansas City Roulettes. Does look similar to Michael's specimen. The pin holes were made by hand with a roller used for marking cloth for sewing. Problem is, there are many fakes. These need to be authenticated by an expert.
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
The Swedish Tiger site shows some Kansas City roulettes at the bottom of this page:
http://www.theswedishtiger.com/x1912a.htm
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10:43:10pm
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Thanks very much everybody for comments and advice - it is very much appreciated, I am a New Zealander who has only taken up US stamps to collect in the last ten years or so, so I don't know that I will easily be able to find anyone here who can help with certification. I did not know that there were any private perforations so am grateful for the information. It looks to me from what has been said that the most likely avenue to start with is the "Wilson" perforation - I think that DCSStamps block might also be Wilson's from what I found in this Siegel catalogue Sale 967 Lot 4650 2008-12-16
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Michael - I agree that you may have a Wilson Roulette. I was not aware of these. These were produced 9 years later than the Kansas City roulettes and were Offset Printing. It appears that your stamps is possibly a Scott's #532 Imperforate Type IV and had the roulette perfs added. It could have been done by Wilson, or anyone. Other than statement from Herman Herst that J. Hull Wilson made them, there is no official recognition for them. Additionally, it appears that the bank in Pittsburg where they were made used them internally for sending mail and they were never openly sold to the public.
If you look closely at the previous image I posted you will note that the stamps are Flat Plate printed and not Offset. The Kansas City roulettes were issued in 1914 and the Wilsons were first introduced sometime late in 1923, however are not officially recognized by Scott's. Not sure anyone even knows how many were made. We know there were 400 sheets of the Kansas City roulettes.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Wilson's. I was not aware of them. Interesting find.
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02:54:47am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
DCS This summary indicates that Wilson perfed stocks of Type Va and Type IV offset and also Type I 1916 "offset" - my Scott pocket catalogue is insufficient to identify what the last may be. http://www.americanstamphistory.com/downloads/05-Stamp%20Exh-Perfor.pdf
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Aw. Research pays off. This provided a lot more information than I had known before. But know that I know the history about the Wilson Perforations, I don't know how to value them. Anyone can do perforations on officially issued imperforate stamps and they have. Not sure this makes them worth more or less than imperforate as issued. They are unusual though and there is probably collectors that seek these un-official varieties.
Such as I have a Washington/Franklin with a perf 13 1/2 in addition it has a Schermack Type II perforation. Obviously a variety of some kind, but not recorded anywhere I have found.
Thanks again for the lead on the Perforation History webpage. Everyday you do not learn something new is a wasted day. This made my day for me.
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01:49:51am
re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Dan - glad to hear my last made your day. It looks like the Type I "offset" may be on Scott 482 from this entry in a Spinks catalogue which also gives some indication of value for stamps on cover at any rate. http://stampauctionnetwork.com/f/f11752.cfm
As I said, my small catalogue doesn't identify whether Scott 482 is flat plate printed or indeed offset. Maybe you can let me know?
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re: Advice on identifying 2c Washington stamps
Michael - As far as I know there is no Type I Offset stamps. Offsets were all Type IV to Type VII.
The Scott's 482 is an imperforate Flat Plate, unwatermarked. The 482A is the valuable one and is the same except in a Deep Rose color. Valued to $65,000.
I will send you a copy of my cheat sheets. - Dan
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