Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Can you confirm, using your superior technology, whether there is a grill here or not? This is the back of a possible 139-or not. The possible lines that I make out are running vertical-as far as I know in the wove type paper they run only horizontal. My problem is that I cannot make out any grill pattern ("H" or "I"). There is one grill pattern I've never seen, but it is described as a continuous 'roller or marginal grill'. Could it be that that is what I'm looking at-or am I imagining the grill altogether?Any help would be appreciated. As a last resort I'll go for an expertization, but I'd sure love to try to nail it down myself (with help) if at all possible.
Thanks in advance,
Dan
cohendaniel64@yahoo.com
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You don't show the front of the stamp, so we can't confirm if it is a #139, or another type of the 10 centers of that time period.
The grill impressions on this issue tend to be faint, and the grills do not cover the entire stamp.
The stamps of this series are printed on wove paper of various thickness.
What it looks like (without seeing the front of the stamp) is wove paper that has some soiling, without grill.
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Dear Michael,
Of course you're quite right. I didn't include a front shot, which perhaps I should have done, and the grill patterns of this series is notoriously faint. Since the only one of the series is a #139, I was concentrating on the back to puzzle out if there was/was not a grill. Your suggestion to include the front though may be another way to eliminate the grill question, and I'll put up the front as requested. Good point.
The main question remains about the apparent lines(?) going vertical rather than horizontal. Are there lines there? Both Perry and Bryan, in private emails, have indicated that they CANNOT verify any discernible grill pattern. Perhaps we can agree that there is no grill then, but what about the vertical lines-are they there? Brian points out that he can't make out any raised portion as part of the verticals.
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Thanks for posting the front image. I was looking for the secret mark, which is not there.
I, too don't see a grill. The paper "lines" as you called them, if we are talking about the same thing, is the weave pattern of the paper, and the back of the stamp does show the horizontal and vertical pattern of wove paper.
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I think this is well covered. The paper types, of which there are really only two for the banknotes, soft porous and hard white, are identified better by looking at other stamps. The columbians are on soft porous, cheap to come by some with wide margins that clearly show this pattern. The hard white paper is thiner, and does not show the pattern of soft pourous- thus identified by what it is not... i don't recommend the flick test on these. Use a scanner to help yourself, it often brings out the quality of paper better than the use of holding the stamp at an angle close to a light source. The latter is quick though on most stamps, saving the scanner for the tight margined or heavily cancelled items. There are some ribbed, laid and such other paper types of debate here, far and few between.It is noted for clarity that much variation in paper exists in this period, as rag was replaced with wood and screens, meshes and rollers can appear to have patterns embossed onto the papers. With practice one will become aware of these, use of a microscope and thickness guage is required when you run into one that doesn't fit in...Grills are more easily discernable using the light trick. The fact that the dimensions are known helps us, but the fact that many are faint grill impressions can be frustrating. Again, try 1847usa or Whites "papers and gums of United Staes Stamps", the bible of research on this subject.
However, I can count only four lines in the left frameline, so I would estimate it to be a type A49b, reengraved, no secret mark, soft pourous (wove,sic) paper, Scott # 209
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Dear Guys,
So we can agree that there isn't a grill per se on this stamp back. There seems to be some question as to whether or not it is a #150 or #209, but that is of less interest to me right now than the lines. I've looked at a lot of paper backs in my time, and just don't recall the vertical lines that I think I'm seeing. We would expect horizontal lines on the soft paper wove pattern-no argument there. And there are horizontal wove pattern traces observable- but the verticals? Are you saying that the wove type can show both the vertical and the horizontal? If so, problem solved.
By the way, many thanks for the input to all who have responded, both on and off the message board.
Dan C.
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Dan
yes you are seeing the lines...but no, thay are not true lines- they are a result of the manufaturing process, and one may imagine both horizontal and verticle lines. The paper shows no discernable difference in thickness- the hallmark of the rare paper types- other than the uneven remnants of the wires and rollers in use at the paper mill of this time. Heavy duty applied study and lots of expensive equipment to go farther than this.It's a 209, start looking at the columbians to bring this into perspective. This is collecting my friend, hard as scott 2720...it never ends. I have argued the ID of several stamps with certs, won and lost some too. Still get taken to the woodshed too!
Brian
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Brian, I agree with you that it is the re-engraved stamp (4 lines on the left of the inner oval). Missed that (need new glasses), and I edited my original replies so as not to confuse anyone.
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Much obliged, one & all. It's a #209, no grill but prominent vertical lines due to the paper making process. Excellent discussion.
Thanks,
Dan C.
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Dear Guys,
I'm back again with the same question (grill or no grill?) on another item. I'd appreciate any input that you'd care to share.
Thanks again for the help.
Dan C
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Not a grill as issued.
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Can you confirm, using your superior technology, whether there is a grill here or not? This is the back of a possible 139-or not. The possible lines that I make out are running vertical-as far as I know in the wove type paper they run only horizontal. My problem is that I cannot make out any grill pattern ("H" or "I"). There is one grill pattern I've never seen, but it is described as a continuous 'roller or marginal grill'. Could it be that that is what I'm looking at-or am I imagining the grill altogether?
Any help would be appreciated. As a last resort I'll go for an expertization, but I'd sure love to try to nail it down myself (with help) if at all possible.
Thanks in advance,
Dan
cohendaniel64@yahoo.com
Login to Like
this post
re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
You don't show the front of the stamp, so we can't confirm if it is a #139, or another type of the 10 centers of that time period.
The grill impressions on this issue tend to be faint, and the grills do not cover the entire stamp.
The stamps of this series are printed on wove paper of various thickness.
What it looks like (without seeing the front of the stamp) is wove paper that has some soiling, without grill.
Login to Like
this post
re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Dear Michael,
Of course you're quite right. I didn't include a front shot, which perhaps I should have done, and the grill patterns of this series is notoriously faint. Since the only one of the series is a #139, I was concentrating on the back to puzzle out if there was/was not a grill. Your suggestion to include the front though may be another way to eliminate the grill question, and I'll put up the front as requested. Good point.
The main question remains about the apparent lines(?) going vertical rather than horizontal. Are there lines there? Both Perry and Bryan, in private emails, have indicated that they CANNOT verify any discernible grill pattern. Perhaps we can agree that there is no grill then, but what about the vertical lines-are they there? Brian points out that he can't make out any raised portion as part of the verticals.
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re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Thanks for posting the front image. I was looking for the secret mark, which is not there.
I, too don't see a grill. The paper "lines" as you called them, if we are talking about the same thing, is the weave pattern of the paper, and the back of the stamp does show the horizontal and vertical pattern of wove paper.
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03:36:58pm
re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
I think this is well covered. The paper types, of which there are really only two for the banknotes, soft porous and hard white, are identified better by looking at other stamps. The columbians are on soft porous, cheap to come by some with wide margins that clearly show this pattern. The hard white paper is thiner, and does not show the pattern of soft pourous- thus identified by what it is not... i don't recommend the flick test on these. Use a scanner to help yourself, it often brings out the quality of paper better than the use of holding the stamp at an angle close to a light source. The latter is quick though on most stamps, saving the scanner for the tight margined or heavily cancelled items. There are some ribbed, laid and such other paper types of debate here, far and few between.It is noted for clarity that much variation in paper exists in this period, as rag was replaced with wood and screens, meshes and rollers can appear to have patterns embossed onto the papers. With practice one will become aware of these, use of a microscope and thickness guage is required when you run into one that doesn't fit in...Grills are more easily discernable using the light trick. The fact that the dimensions are known helps us, but the fact that many are faint grill impressions can be frustrating. Again, try 1847usa or Whites "papers and gums of United Staes Stamps", the bible of research on this subject.
However, I can count only four lines in the left frameline, so I would estimate it to be a type A49b, reengraved, no secret mark, soft pourous (wove,sic) paper, Scott # 209
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re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Dear Guys,
So we can agree that there isn't a grill per se on this stamp back. There seems to be some question as to whether or not it is a #150 or #209, but that is of less interest to me right now than the lines. I've looked at a lot of paper backs in my time, and just don't recall the vertical lines that I think I'm seeing. We would expect horizontal lines on the soft paper wove pattern-no argument there. And there are horizontal wove pattern traces observable- but the verticals? Are you saying that the wove type can show both the vertical and the horizontal? If so, problem solved.
By the way, many thanks for the input to all who have responded, both on and off the message board.
Dan C.
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04:28:44pm
re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Dan
yes you are seeing the lines...but no, thay are not true lines- they are a result of the manufaturing process, and one may imagine both horizontal and verticle lines. The paper shows no discernable difference in thickness- the hallmark of the rare paper types- other than the uneven remnants of the wires and rollers in use at the paper mill of this time. Heavy duty applied study and lots of expensive equipment to go farther than this.It's a 209, start looking at the columbians to bring this into perspective. This is collecting my friend, hard as scott 2720...it never ends. I have argued the ID of several stamps with certs, won and lost some too. Still get taken to the woodshed too!
Brian
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re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Brian, I agree with you that it is the re-engraved stamp (4 lines on the left of the inner oval). Missed that (need new glasses), and I edited my original replies so as not to confuse anyone.
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re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Much obliged, one & all. It's a #209, no grill but prominent vertical lines due to the paper making process. Excellent discussion.
Thanks,
Dan C.
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re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Dear Guys,
I'm back again with the same question (grill or no grill?) on another item. I'd appreciate any input that you'd care to share.
Thanks again for the help.
Dan C
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12:01:36am
re: U.S. Classics: Grill or no Grill?
Not a grill as issued.
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