Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Discussion - Member to Member Sales - Research Center
Login to Like
this post
What were you trying to sell, and what were you expecting to get for it?...g
Login to Like
this post
You'll have to be LOT more specific. What were you selling, what condition was it in, what were your expectations? I hear many complaints about dealers, and it often turns out that the dealers simply told the collectors that their stamps weren't worth what they asking. There's also the fact that many collectors assume that because a stamp has a certain catalogue value they can sell it for that value, not taking condition into account, or the fact that dealers have to make a profit. If you can give us more details about your thwarted transactions, we can perhaps offer some worthwhile advice.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
"Hi everone, Why when i try to sell to stamp dealers i get the runaround??? Dose anyone have the same problem?? Do the prices in stamp books full of bull ???? I can see one or two but i went too 7 dealers to have the same run a round."
This is the same phraseology that perpetuates through the entire hobby by many collectors. Dealers are no good, but they were plenty good when they sold you stamps at large percentage discounts from catalog, because you gave the dealer the runaround by refusing to pay full catalog for it, but expect the catalog values to have meaning when it suits your needs. Collectors deflate the true catalog values from their own buying activities, and create the true market value of the stamp. I'm not saying that the last sentence is wrong. It is the marketplace that drives prices and true values. With that, I offer the following:
1- catalog values are ESTIMATES ONLY, because collectors do not honor the values by refusing to buy from dealers who charge full catalog value.
2- Collectors RARELY pay full catalog value for a stamp
3- Many of those collectors when they want to sell their collection EXPECT a dealer to pay full catalog for something that they themselves are not willing to pay
4- IF dealers pay full catalog for stamps, then the dealer will be operating at a loss. Do the math.
5- If a collector is only willing to pay 50% of catalog value for a stamp, then the collector must expect the dealer to buy at 10%-25% of catalog value, if the stamps to be purchased are not all common minimum value items of which dealers have tens of thousands and are very hard to sell. Dealers have to pay the rent and feed the family.
6- if collectors want to get more for their stamps when selling, then they have to be willing to pay more. So, if a collector pays 100% of catalog value, then a dealer would be willing to buy the stamps at 25% - 50% of catalog value, provided the collection is not full of common material, including incomplete sets that are missing the high values.
7- Most dealers work at less than minimum wage, because most stamps have very little market value (price a collector is willing to pay for a stamp). Some dealers only sell high end material, because regardless of the selling price, it takes the same amount of time and expense to work a stamp up for sale.
8- Before crapping on dealers and declaring them all crooks, LEARN the marketplace, and LEARN the habits of collectors. If I offer to sell you a used, straight-edged US 3 cent commemorative, would you pay me 25 cents for that stamp? No, you'd want it for less than a nickle, but you'd expect me to pay 25 cents or thereabouts for it if you wanted to sell it to me. That is what the dealer has to contend with.
9- Be happy that at least you are in a hobby that offers a market for material no longer wanted. If the intention of a collector is to get rich from the HOBBY (an activity of leisure and enjoyment), then the collector is grossly mistaken. If a collector is wanting to have investment quality collection, then that takes plenty of study as any investment entails, and it is no longer a hobby.
Login to Like
this post
Back in the day of the 10 cent minimum value, I was a part-time dealer. I did approvals, new issue subscriptions and local stamp and coin shows.
At one show, a guy came up to the table and said that he had some "old and rare" stamps (an over used phrase that usually a misnomer). He asked if I'd be interested in buying them. I offered to look at them. He left and returned shortly with a large box. He placed it on the table and opened it. The box was full of hundreds of full panes of 3 and 4 cent US commemoratives. I offered him 80% of face value. He became instantly indignant, claiming that I was a crook and that his stamps were "old and rare". Of course my response was if they were "old and Rare", why did he have so many of them? He then said that I wanted to buy so cheap so that I could sell then for alot of money and get rich after ripping him off. I told him that my intent of buying those stamps was to use them for postage. I though t he was going to feint. "You wouldn't dare use those 'old and rare' (he liked that phrase) stamps for postage!" he exclaimed. I told him to send me a letter in the mail and see what stamps I use in the response. He took the box and said he was going to find an honest dealer. He came back about a half-hour later and declared that all dealers are "crooks". Obviously a hobby-uneducated person who I don't even think was a collector.
I have been offered "rare" collections to buy where all the stamps were taped to the album pages; common, low-valued stamps were the only stamps in the collection; stamps had ink catalog numbers on the back of nice MNH collections; nice-looking stamps with decent catalog value improperly stored and ruined; stock books full of nothing but damaged junk. I declined to buy, and got looks back of total astonishment that I wouldn't want such valuable material.
I have seen so many collections that I have been offered to purchase, and I also am a member of the APS Estate Advisory Service where I have reviewed several collections for a deceased APS member's family, that I have come to know just by looking at the albums without opening them, generally what condition to expect the stamps to be in. Yes, once in a while I am surprised by a collection that I initially expected to be in poor condition, but that doesn't happen all that often. Many, many collectors do not properly take care of their stamps, and the stamps just fall to ruin. Their collection, and they can do with as they please.
Login to Like
this post
True story: When I got back into collecting as an adult, I paid HALF CATALOGUE for a nice Canadian stamp I found in a local stamp shop. I greedily paid for it, left the shop, and went straight to another stamp shop to sell it, obviously, for full catalogue. What a deal!
I offered it to the owner of the other stamp shop. He did NOT offer full catalogue for it. He didn't want to buy it at all! I put 2 and 2 together, and went to a costume shop to buy a dunce cap, not for the second dealer but for myself!
Bob
P.S. The part about the dunce cap isn't true, but I felt like a dunce!
Login to Like
this post
07:38:23pm
Fond Memories Department
I remember sitting in my room as a pre-teen adding up the value of all those thousand mark German stamps (the overprint value), comparing the Mark's exchange value and wondering why my dad insisted on working at two jobs when we were obviously very rich.
Login to Like
this post
Good to know I wasn't alone doing that! And no electric calculators either!
Login to Like
this post
Dealers have to eat like most other business persons. I watch Pawn Stars and other similar shows on TV, and I understand that they have a lot of overhead and risk as dealers, because buying an item will not guarantee they can sell it right away. I have noticed the better the item, the closerto catalog someone will pay for it. But with common or easy to find items, even if they add up to several dollars, you are lucky to get 10% of the catalog value.
It seems too that if you collect a country with a very small following, it will take longer to sell since you have to find a buyer who is willing to pay a good price for it.
As a collector of pre-1940 European, I am willing to pay higher percentage of catalog than I would for a mix of non-Europe.
Thank you all for the good stories!
Login to Like
this post
The stamp collecting husband through out his stamp collecting years has told his wife that these stamps are worth a fortune to justify the expense of his collecting habit. All is good until sadly his time to move on from this world has come. Leaving the wife with a lot of expensive bills to pay. So the wife thinking her money troubles will be over once she sells the stamp collection to the family stamp dealer. But finds out the stamps are worth very little at all.
I will never forget this story being told to me by a big tough stamp dealer. He had tears in his eyes as he told me how common this situation was and how hard it was on him to tell the wife the truth about the value of her husband's stamp collection.
Login to Like
this post
Well said everyone...
This was a hard lesson to learn for me as well a year ago when I started going through The Garbage Bag Collection. Now, I have a practiced response to tell non-collector's when they ask me what the collection is worth. I take a deep breath and say...
"Well, if my collection was completely destroyed, and I had the money to instantly replace it the next day or next week, I would need to spend this ammount of money." Then I take another deep breath and say, "However, the way the real world works, if I were to sell the collection, I would be lucky to get a quarter of that ammount."
I've finally dropped the ideas of making money in this hobby. It's about collecting art now and any money that does come in is just a "lucky" bonus. And that is not because dealers are rip-off artists, it's because the hobby is really not that popular in the real world. If it was something that every person did, then yes, the demand would be higher and so would the values.
---Pat
Login to Like
this post
Thank,s to all for your input.
Login to Like
this post
I'm dealing with the exact same situation at work right now. A colleague's grandfather passed away and left a huge closet full of albums, boxes and envelopes for his grandkids to sort through. My colleague approached me with $ signs in his eyes about valuing his grandfather's collection for possible sale. I asked him if the stamps had been catalogued and mounted in albums. He said that some were; but most were in boxes and envelopes, sorted according to country (a red flag to dealers and collectors). My colleague said he had tens of thousands of stamps - and even at minimum catalogue value, he was probably looking at a few thousand bucks, when all was said and done. All he needed to do was figure out how much the value of each stamp was and find someone on eBay who would pay for it and, I quote, "the shipping charge I will charge those people."
My response was to laugh out loud, explain what has been said already in this post, and tell him to come and see me in six months (after he'd done all of the cataloguing and sorting) to see if he made back close to 10% of the value of what he thought he had.
I figure he'll be back to see me after one round with any random volume of Scott's; and that 10% will seem like a pipe dream to him...
@rocindude: I'm not trying to make light of what you have likely inherited from a relative; but you need to understand the market. As Michael said, demand drives it. If you have a stamp that's worth 20 cents (the minimum catalogue value), you'll be lucky to get a nickel for one stamp out of ten; and count your blessings and leave the premises if you get a dime for it. More valuable stamps, depending on condition, you're not going to get the dollars you see in the current Scott's. Out of all the auctions I've sold, I have had only TWO go at over catalogue value. Maybe I'm a poor seller; but it's more likely that the buyers of these stamps (dealers or otherwise) are smarter than you might be giving them credit for...
My two cents worth (which is exactly 10% of a common stamps' value).
Andrew
Login to Like
this post
The February 2012 issue of The American Philatelist has a very good article titled, "Philatelic Estate Disposition for the Novice". It was written by someone who helped out the family of a deceased stamp collector friend of his. The author discusses the various things that he did, and the length of time it took to hep the family. He called for assistance of the APS Estate Advisory Service, an adviser came out and provided alot of time and effort on the collection.
I am going to quote one of the side boxes from the article:
"It is important for owners/heirs to recognize the fact that the average collection will bring cash-in-hand (condition-adjusted value of material) equal to perhaps 20% of the unadjustedcatalog value of the collection. Let's take a collection with a Scott value of $250,000 for all items, with no adjustment for condition. Let's assume that the condition adjustment cuts that down to $200,000, and let's further assume that the $10-and-up items total, after adjustment for condition, is $175,000. Twenty percent of that is $35,000 - in effect, a "loss" of $215,000 from what the novice might expect based on a first look at catalog values."
When appraising a collection, the first thing to do is identify all the stamps with a catalog value of $10 and up. If any stamp cataloging $10 and up has any sort of damage, that stamp is discounted 90%. When all the stamps with catalog values of $10 and up have been valued, take the total and reduce it by 80%. That is the dealer buy price. for the entire collection. You have to figure that the stamps cataloging for less than $10 are common stamps and will not be easy for the dealer to sell except in bulk lots.
If you want to include stamps that catalog less than $10 in an appraisal, that can be done. Each stamp in the collection that has a catalog value of less than $10 and has no damage gets appraised at 1 penny. A stamp with a catalog value of less than $10 with damage is considered worthless in an appraisal. A complete set (meaning all stamps in the set are used, unused hinged, mint never hinged, but no mixture of those conditions) that totals more than $1 and less than $10 gets appraised at 25 cents (don't add the penny for each stamp in the set). When you have the total of all the stamps with a catalog value less than $10, reduce that total by 90%.
Add the net amounts for the stamps valued over $10 and under $10, and you have your appraisal of the collection. Normally, however, stamps under $10 are not included in an appraisal, because of the time and expense to include the common stamps in the appraisal are not worth the cost.
If you insure your collection, you should use the process I stated above to arrive at the proper coverage amount.
Login to Like
this post
If you are helping the family of a deceased stamp collector who was a member of the American Philatelic Society, the family can take advantage of the APS Estate Advisory Service for up to one year following the death of the APS member.
Also, if the collection was insured through the APS insurance plan, have one member of the family (preferably the person who is living where the collection is housed) join the APS to keep the low-cost insurance coverage for the collection in place.
It will probably take a two years or more for the family to get to the point to where they can properly make a decision on what to do with the collection. The family is grieving, and they do not need to feel rushed into making a decision on the disposition of the collection. They also need to know what is contained in the collection and be given advice on the options available. A grieving person cannot make good decisions and can easily fall prey to swindlers.
Login to Like
this post
I am sorry for these long posts, but I am trying to offer assistance based on my experiences as an APS Estate Adviser working with families who were left with a stamp collection after the collector passed away. It is not an easy thing to do to go to those peoples' homes to review the collection with them. There is alot of emotion, and my sitting at the collector's desk brings back many memories to the family members.
One thing that a collector should do that will be the biggest help to the family left behind is to have an inventory of the collection, and information regarding where everything in the collection is (spare room, attic, bank vault, etc.)is. Also, the collector needs to let at least one family member know about the collection and anything important about it. This also should be stated in the inventory. This will make it easier for the family, appraiser, estate adviser, friend, which will permit the review of the collection to be conducted as quickly as possible. When you go, your family will be hurting and be vulnerable. Make it easier for them.
Login to Like
this post
Michael,
There's no need to apologize for the long posts. This is invaluable information for all of us. Thank you very much!
Andrew
Login to Like
this post
I used to sell on ebay with all of my auctions beginning at one penny regardless of their face or catalogue value (hence my handle of penny.auction.stamps). I did this because I thought it was fair to let the collectors determine the true value of a stamp, after all a stamp is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
I found it difficult offering 5% (of CV) for a collection knowing I would take a loss on it, but I did it anyways to help build our collection.
After many, many auctions and several years, I had a great number of $100 (catalog) value stamps sell for 1 penny.
After taking a very long time to learn a simple lesson (I found that collectors paid about 2-3% of the catalog value at online auctions), it was much better for me to trade stamps and I have been happily trading (using catalog values) ever since! I am about $500 away from breaking the $20,000 mark for trading.
Thanks again for Stamp-O-Rama for all of their help, you folks have brought the joy back into collecting for our family (myself and 5 kids collecting)!
Login to Like
this post
Thanks, Andrew. I appreciate that.
Login to Like
this post
Hi PennyAuction.
There must be a reason but why do you have Holland and the Netherlands separate?
Always Happy Stamping. KG5
Login to Like
this post
Actually there is a good reason. All of the geography I learned in school was based on the map found on the board game risk!
Just kidding, an oversight on my part (not a small one either!).
All the best.
Marc
Login to Like
this post
@Andrejs--A few posts up, you made this remark:
"I asked him if the stamps had been catalogued and mounted in albums. He said that some were; but most were in boxes and envelopes, sorted according to country (a red flag to dealers and collectors)."
I'm curious as to why there would be a red flag in that scenario.
Login to Like
this post
It's all in the presentation. Boxes and boxes of stamps, even if piled into glassines by country, mean alot of work to sort for little return.
In addition, from my experiences of buying stamps accumulations, such as what this is generally contain 30% - 50% of stamps that are worthless due to damage. Boxes and boxes of stamps contain multitudes of duplicates as well. Hard for one dealer to sell 250 of the same stamp that catalogs only 20 cents. I find that the same percentages generally hold true for stamps in beginner and intermediate albums, especially if they are hinged to the album pages. If the album is old, then the percentage of damaged can run significantly higher to where almost all the stamps are basically worthless. I am rarely interested in buying this sort of material.
Albums such as the Scott International I find better with 20% - 30% damaged, depending on how they are mounted on the pages. Also, the lack of complete sets is commonplace, and since only the lowest valued stamps are present, there isn't much a dealer can do with those. I peruse through randomly selected pages of such albums and see how things look. Usually, I do not find it worthwhile to purchase these, especially if stamps without spaces allocated for are hinged all over the place on the pages, or duplicates and triplicates and more are mounted on top of each other over the same space. A horrible display.
Scott Specialized and other similar albums generally are the best maintained. I find around 10% - 20% damaged material, depending again on how the stamps are mounted on the pages. If the stamps are in mounts and the pages are clean and clear of surplus stamps placed all over the page, then it is a good indication that the collector took care of the collection, and it will be a good prospect for purchase. These albums have a good percentage of complete sets as well. I do check randomly to see if the stamps in mounts were previously hinged and transferred to mounts. If the stamps are hinged, then it requires a closer look to see how the stamps are hinged and what hinges were used.
A well-kept and well-organized collection will bring higher buying prices from dealers. Think as if you were a dealer. Would you pay top dollar for boxes and boxes of unsorted stamps that collectors only bid bottom dollar on at stamp auctions for box lots? If you are going to buy something, do you want to know what it is that you are buying, and expect it to be properly presented for you to easily decide what is there and being offered for purchase? Dealers can't afford to waste time or money on "mystery lots".
Login to Like
this post
As expected, stamp prices will be based upon demand. I can get stamps from countries that are not "mainstream" collecting destinations for less than 10%. If I want the stamp and like the stamp, I feel I am getting a good deal. If I but from very popular countries, such as Western Europe, Japan, China, US, or Canada, I really have to hunt a while to get material for less than 10% of Scott. I also have to factor if this is to fill a hole in an album that I will keep and pass on to someone, or will want to sell or trade. If I plan to sell or trade, I of course will not want to pay a higher percentage of SCV.
I have found buying mounted album lots and stockbook lots to be a really good way to do it all: fill holes in my collection, find a nice item or two, and provide plenty of trading or sellable material for very little outlay.
Glad to see so many "old school" collectors on SOR!
Login to Like
this post
I meant that seeing stuff in envelopes and boxes is a red flag in this scenario because, let's face it, as collectors, would we be keeping our best stamps in envelopes and boxes or in albums? My colleague wanted a quick sale and profit. When he described what he had, my immediate reaction was that these were extras and not so great stamps. Yes, there are always hidden treasures; but people who want a quick sale won't want to put that time into it. Nor will dealers who are consulted by people who inherit collections. Michael described the whole process very well. I heard what my colleague said and thought, "give him the catalogues and let him see for himself."
Login to Like
this post
10:03:55pm
I am a novice collector who just posted on a different thread that I want to start my collection with interesting and lucrative stamps. After reading this thread I now realize that is not my goal, I want to enjoy collecting stamps. I inherited a small collection from my sister who passed away and this will be my way of moving on and remembering at the same time. Thank you all for opening my eyes!
Login to Like
this post
Indeed, Lisa, it's not about money at all, or shouldn't be. There's no doubt that you can spend a great deal on stamps, and there's also no doubt that few of us will ever recoup those expenses. But there is this: stamps (and covers) do retain value, sometimes quite considerable value, and can be sold for pleasing amounts. But it's a rare collector who wouldn't do better investing in safe stocks and bonds, if making money is his or her goal.
At the same time, you can spend virtually nothing on a collection and come away a winner. I have a friend who regularly wins top awards in national exhibitions with collections of common stamps that you could literally purchase for $20 or less, or even find in waste baskets. Well, you could have found them a few years ago, when people still used stamps more than email! Her secret is that she can ferret out information about those stamps that is new to the rest of us, and present it in an interesting, readable manner.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
If you peruse through the stamp catalogs, you'll find that most stamps are valued at less than $5.00, and their market value (what a dealer will agree to sell it to you for)is usually less than that.
Login to Like
this post
11:13:02am
To just expand the comment a tiny bit.
Most stamps are truly common as dirt but still the pleasure of collecting them, forming sets and creating album pages is very fulfilling.
The majority, overwhelming majority, are listed in stamp catalogs at less than $5.00.
And their retail or market value; what they usually cost you, is measurably less due to the custom in the hobby of catalog publishers creating an arbitrary number so that dealers can advertise that they are selling at some significant discount from that listing and collectors can deceive themselves into believing that they got a world class bargain.
But then there is the wholesale value, which is what the collector can get from a dealer when he or she sells, and that is but a fraction of the "market value", and quite often a miniscule percentage of that often proclained Catalog listig.
The day that Scott begins to try to sell stamps at the listed price they can then be called the Scott "Value".
Login to Like
this post
Like Randy, I too started collecting the whole world, and with a bang: my first stamp album, bought when I was about 11 or 12, was the three-volume Scott International album. Dumb purchase, really, but I had almost no one to turn to for advice, and it did give me an overview of the huge range of stamps to be on the lookout for.
In a sense I still collect the whole world, but my stamp collections are "limited" to aviation/airmail topicals picturing mid-20th Century aircraft, parts of aircraft, or pilots and crew; stamps related directly to WWI, WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War; astronomy pictorials, including mythology as it relates to astronomy (but not astronautics except as it reveals astronomical information).
I could use a bigger apartment!
Bob
Login to Like
this post
On the topic of dealers relative to sale, is there a place online where one can read reviews of dealers? I've been advised to google them, and thereby have learned that two dealers with which I was going to work have federal felony convictions. But short of that, I'd like to know what others' experiences have been with those who don't show up in a google search. I've also been advised to request bank statements, so that I have assurance that the prospective buyer has the resources to make the purchase, which should help to eliminate curiosity seekers. But I have heard that some dealers will provide a sealed bid and then later back out on the purchase -- that kind of thing. That's the kind of behavior I'd like to find out about from others in advance of contacting a dealer.
Login to Like
this post
It sounds like you have an important collection to sell. bob Ingraham has put together a primer on selling a collection that's a good starting point.
You can also cross check dealers withAPS to se who is naughty and nice.
I don't know of any list. Right now, everything is in generalities, so it's tough to lead you anywhere. dealers tend to specialize, so if yours is a US collection, for instance, you might start with Henry vintner. If its covers, Forte, our own Roy Lingen, or Coverman.... You get the picture.
And, yes, some dealers have convictions for fraud and bid rigging, etc. and others would be elected to the college of saints.
Login to Like
this post
You can submit a reference check online through the APS. Also contact the American Stamp Dealers Association (ASDA). They will help you too. If you have a large collection, you would definitely not want to hit a small-time fly by night dealer.
Login to Like
this post
Thank you. I was disappointed, however, to see that the APS still lists one dealer who was convicted for price rigging and is a felon. :-( Everyone is charming over the phone -- the convicted felons are more charming than all the others. For now, I am simply googling and hoping that any issues show up in the search.
Login to Like
this post
03:16:55pm
Hi everone, Why when i try to sell to stamp dealers i get the runaround??? Dose anyone have the same problem?? Do the prices in stamp books full of bull ???? I can see one or two but i went too 7 dealers to have the same run a round.
Login to Like
this post
04:17:58pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
What were you trying to sell, and what were you expecting to get for it?...g
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
You'll have to be LOT more specific. What were you selling, what condition was it in, what were your expectations? I hear many complaints about dealers, and it often turns out that the dealers simply told the collectors that their stamps weren't worth what they asking. There's also the fact that many collectors assume that because a stamp has a certain catalogue value they can sell it for that value, not taking condition into account, or the fact that dealers have to make a profit. If you can give us more details about your thwarted transactions, we can perhaps offer some worthwhile advice.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
"Hi everone, Why when i try to sell to stamp dealers i get the runaround??? Dose anyone have the same problem?? Do the prices in stamp books full of bull ???? I can see one or two but i went too 7 dealers to have the same run a round."
This is the same phraseology that perpetuates through the entire hobby by many collectors. Dealers are no good, but they were plenty good when they sold you stamps at large percentage discounts from catalog, because you gave the dealer the runaround by refusing to pay full catalog for it, but expect the catalog values to have meaning when it suits your needs. Collectors deflate the true catalog values from their own buying activities, and create the true market value of the stamp. I'm not saying that the last sentence is wrong. It is the marketplace that drives prices and true values. With that, I offer the following:
1- catalog values are ESTIMATES ONLY, because collectors do not honor the values by refusing to buy from dealers who charge full catalog value.
2- Collectors RARELY pay full catalog value for a stamp
3- Many of those collectors when they want to sell their collection EXPECT a dealer to pay full catalog for something that they themselves are not willing to pay
4- IF dealers pay full catalog for stamps, then the dealer will be operating at a loss. Do the math.
5- If a collector is only willing to pay 50% of catalog value for a stamp, then the collector must expect the dealer to buy at 10%-25% of catalog value, if the stamps to be purchased are not all common minimum value items of which dealers have tens of thousands and are very hard to sell. Dealers have to pay the rent and feed the family.
6- if collectors want to get more for their stamps when selling, then they have to be willing to pay more. So, if a collector pays 100% of catalog value, then a dealer would be willing to buy the stamps at 25% - 50% of catalog value, provided the collection is not full of common material, including incomplete sets that are missing the high values.
7- Most dealers work at less than minimum wage, because most stamps have very little market value (price a collector is willing to pay for a stamp). Some dealers only sell high end material, because regardless of the selling price, it takes the same amount of time and expense to work a stamp up for sale.
8- Before crapping on dealers and declaring them all crooks, LEARN the marketplace, and LEARN the habits of collectors. If I offer to sell you a used, straight-edged US 3 cent commemorative, would you pay me 25 cents for that stamp? No, you'd want it for less than a nickle, but you'd expect me to pay 25 cents or thereabouts for it if you wanted to sell it to me. That is what the dealer has to contend with.
9- Be happy that at least you are in a hobby that offers a market for material no longer wanted. If the intention of a collector is to get rich from the HOBBY (an activity of leisure and enjoyment), then the collector is grossly mistaken. If a collector is wanting to have investment quality collection, then that takes plenty of study as any investment entails, and it is no longer a hobby.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Back in the day of the 10 cent minimum value, I was a part-time dealer. I did approvals, new issue subscriptions and local stamp and coin shows.
At one show, a guy came up to the table and said that he had some "old and rare" stamps (an over used phrase that usually a misnomer). He asked if I'd be interested in buying them. I offered to look at them. He left and returned shortly with a large box. He placed it on the table and opened it. The box was full of hundreds of full panes of 3 and 4 cent US commemoratives. I offered him 80% of face value. He became instantly indignant, claiming that I was a crook and that his stamps were "old and rare". Of course my response was if they were "old and Rare", why did he have so many of them? He then said that I wanted to buy so cheap so that I could sell then for alot of money and get rich after ripping him off. I told him that my intent of buying those stamps was to use them for postage. I though t he was going to feint. "You wouldn't dare use those 'old and rare' (he liked that phrase) stamps for postage!" he exclaimed. I told him to send me a letter in the mail and see what stamps I use in the response. He took the box and said he was going to find an honest dealer. He came back about a half-hour later and declared that all dealers are "crooks". Obviously a hobby-uneducated person who I don't even think was a collector.
I have been offered "rare" collections to buy where all the stamps were taped to the album pages; common, low-valued stamps were the only stamps in the collection; stamps had ink catalog numbers on the back of nice MNH collections; nice-looking stamps with decent catalog value improperly stored and ruined; stock books full of nothing but damaged junk. I declined to buy, and got looks back of total astonishment that I wouldn't want such valuable material.
I have seen so many collections that I have been offered to purchase, and I also am a member of the APS Estate Advisory Service where I have reviewed several collections for a deceased APS member's family, that I have come to know just by looking at the albums without opening them, generally what condition to expect the stamps to be in. Yes, once in a while I am surprised by a collection that I initially expected to be in poor condition, but that doesn't happen all that often. Many, many collectors do not properly take care of their stamps, and the stamps just fall to ruin. Their collection, and they can do with as they please.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
True story: When I got back into collecting as an adult, I paid HALF CATALOGUE for a nice Canadian stamp I found in a local stamp shop. I greedily paid for it, left the shop, and went straight to another stamp shop to sell it, obviously, for full catalogue. What a deal!
I offered it to the owner of the other stamp shop. He did NOT offer full catalogue for it. He didn't want to buy it at all! I put 2 and 2 together, and went to a costume shop to buy a dunce cap, not for the second dealer but for myself!
Bob
P.S. The part about the dunce cap isn't true, but I felt like a dunce!
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
01 Feb 2012
07:38:23pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Fond Memories Department
I remember sitting in my room as a pre-teen adding up the value of all those thousand mark German stamps (the overprint value), comparing the Mark's exchange value and wondering why my dad insisted on working at two jobs when we were obviously very rich.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Good to know I wasn't alone doing that! And no electric calculators either!
Login to Like
this post
10:20:19pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Dealers have to eat like most other business persons. I watch Pawn Stars and other similar shows on TV, and I understand that they have a lot of overhead and risk as dealers, because buying an item will not guarantee they can sell it right away. I have noticed the better the item, the closerto catalog someone will pay for it. But with common or easy to find items, even if they add up to several dollars, you are lucky to get 10% of the catalog value.
It seems too that if you collect a country with a very small following, it will take longer to sell since you have to find a buyer who is willing to pay a good price for it.
As a collector of pre-1940 European, I am willing to pay higher percentage of catalog than I would for a mix of non-Europe.
Thank you all for the good stories!
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
The stamp collecting husband through out his stamp collecting years has told his wife that these stamps are worth a fortune to justify the expense of his collecting habit. All is good until sadly his time to move on from this world has come. Leaving the wife with a lot of expensive bills to pay. So the wife thinking her money troubles will be over once she sells the stamp collection to the family stamp dealer. But finds out the stamps are worth very little at all.
I will never forget this story being told to me by a big tough stamp dealer. He had tears in his eyes as he told me how common this situation was and how hard it was on him to tell the wife the truth about the value of her husband's stamp collection.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Well said everyone...
This was a hard lesson to learn for me as well a year ago when I started going through The Garbage Bag Collection. Now, I have a practiced response to tell non-collector's when they ask me what the collection is worth. I take a deep breath and say...
"Well, if my collection was completely destroyed, and I had the money to instantly replace it the next day or next week, I would need to spend this ammount of money." Then I take another deep breath and say, "However, the way the real world works, if I were to sell the collection, I would be lucky to get a quarter of that ammount."
I've finally dropped the ideas of making money in this hobby. It's about collecting art now and any money that does come in is just a "lucky" bonus. And that is not because dealers are rip-off artists, it's because the hobby is really not that popular in the real world. If it was something that every person did, then yes, the demand would be higher and so would the values.
---Pat
Login to Like
this post
01:09:23pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Thank,s to all for your input.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
I'm dealing with the exact same situation at work right now. A colleague's grandfather passed away and left a huge closet full of albums, boxes and envelopes for his grandkids to sort through. My colleague approached me with $ signs in his eyes about valuing his grandfather's collection for possible sale. I asked him if the stamps had been catalogued and mounted in albums. He said that some were; but most were in boxes and envelopes, sorted according to country (a red flag to dealers and collectors). My colleague said he had tens of thousands of stamps - and even at minimum catalogue value, he was probably looking at a few thousand bucks, when all was said and done. All he needed to do was figure out how much the value of each stamp was and find someone on eBay who would pay for it and, I quote, "the shipping charge I will charge those people."
My response was to laugh out loud, explain what has been said already in this post, and tell him to come and see me in six months (after he'd done all of the cataloguing and sorting) to see if he made back close to 10% of the value of what he thought he had.
I figure he'll be back to see me after one round with any random volume of Scott's; and that 10% will seem like a pipe dream to him...
@rocindude: I'm not trying to make light of what you have likely inherited from a relative; but you need to understand the market. As Michael said, demand drives it. If you have a stamp that's worth 20 cents (the minimum catalogue value), you'll be lucky to get a nickel for one stamp out of ten; and count your blessings and leave the premises if you get a dime for it. More valuable stamps, depending on condition, you're not going to get the dollars you see in the current Scott's. Out of all the auctions I've sold, I have had only TWO go at over catalogue value. Maybe I'm a poor seller; but it's more likely that the buyers of these stamps (dealers or otherwise) are smarter than you might be giving them credit for...
My two cents worth (which is exactly 10% of a common stamps' value).
Andrew
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
The February 2012 issue of The American Philatelist has a very good article titled, "Philatelic Estate Disposition for the Novice". It was written by someone who helped out the family of a deceased stamp collector friend of his. The author discusses the various things that he did, and the length of time it took to hep the family. He called for assistance of the APS Estate Advisory Service, an adviser came out and provided alot of time and effort on the collection.
I am going to quote one of the side boxes from the article:
"It is important for owners/heirs to recognize the fact that the average collection will bring cash-in-hand (condition-adjusted value of material) equal to perhaps 20% of the unadjustedcatalog value of the collection. Let's take a collection with a Scott value of $250,000 for all items, with no adjustment for condition. Let's assume that the condition adjustment cuts that down to $200,000, and let's further assume that the $10-and-up items total, after adjustment for condition, is $175,000. Twenty percent of that is $35,000 - in effect, a "loss" of $215,000 from what the novice might expect based on a first look at catalog values."
When appraising a collection, the first thing to do is identify all the stamps with a catalog value of $10 and up. If any stamp cataloging $10 and up has any sort of damage, that stamp is discounted 90%. When all the stamps with catalog values of $10 and up have been valued, take the total and reduce it by 80%. That is the dealer buy price. for the entire collection. You have to figure that the stamps cataloging for less than $10 are common stamps and will not be easy for the dealer to sell except in bulk lots.
If you want to include stamps that catalog less than $10 in an appraisal, that can be done. Each stamp in the collection that has a catalog value of less than $10 and has no damage gets appraised at 1 penny. A stamp with a catalog value of less than $10 with damage is considered worthless in an appraisal. A complete set (meaning all stamps in the set are used, unused hinged, mint never hinged, but no mixture of those conditions) that totals more than $1 and less than $10 gets appraised at 25 cents (don't add the penny for each stamp in the set). When you have the total of all the stamps with a catalog value less than $10, reduce that total by 90%.
Add the net amounts for the stamps valued over $10 and under $10, and you have your appraisal of the collection. Normally, however, stamps under $10 are not included in an appraisal, because of the time and expense to include the common stamps in the appraisal are not worth the cost.
If you insure your collection, you should use the process I stated above to arrive at the proper coverage amount.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
If you are helping the family of a deceased stamp collector who was a member of the American Philatelic Society, the family can take advantage of the APS Estate Advisory Service for up to one year following the death of the APS member.
Also, if the collection was insured through the APS insurance plan, have one member of the family (preferably the person who is living where the collection is housed) join the APS to keep the low-cost insurance coverage for the collection in place.
It will probably take a two years or more for the family to get to the point to where they can properly make a decision on what to do with the collection. The family is grieving, and they do not need to feel rushed into making a decision on the disposition of the collection. They also need to know what is contained in the collection and be given advice on the options available. A grieving person cannot make good decisions and can easily fall prey to swindlers.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
I am sorry for these long posts, but I am trying to offer assistance based on my experiences as an APS Estate Adviser working with families who were left with a stamp collection after the collector passed away. It is not an easy thing to do to go to those peoples' homes to review the collection with them. There is alot of emotion, and my sitting at the collector's desk brings back many memories to the family members.
One thing that a collector should do that will be the biggest help to the family left behind is to have an inventory of the collection, and information regarding where everything in the collection is (spare room, attic, bank vault, etc.)is. Also, the collector needs to let at least one family member know about the collection and anything important about it. This also should be stated in the inventory. This will make it easier for the family, appraiser, estate adviser, friend, which will permit the review of the collection to be conducted as quickly as possible. When you go, your family will be hurting and be vulnerable. Make it easier for them.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Michael,
There's no need to apologize for the long posts. This is invaluable information for all of us. Thank you very much!
Andrew
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
I used to sell on ebay with all of my auctions beginning at one penny regardless of their face or catalogue value (hence my handle of penny.auction.stamps). I did this because I thought it was fair to let the collectors determine the true value of a stamp, after all a stamp is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
I found it difficult offering 5% (of CV) for a collection knowing I would take a loss on it, but I did it anyways to help build our collection.
After many, many auctions and several years, I had a great number of $100 (catalog) value stamps sell for 1 penny.
After taking a very long time to learn a simple lesson (I found that collectors paid about 2-3% of the catalog value at online auctions), it was much better for me to trade stamps and I have been happily trading (using catalog values) ever since! I am about $500 away from breaking the $20,000 mark for trading.
Thanks again for Stamp-O-Rama for all of their help, you folks have brought the joy back into collecting for our family (myself and 5 kids collecting)!
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Thanks, Andrew. I appreciate that.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Hi PennyAuction.
There must be a reason but why do you have Holland and the Netherlands separate?
Always Happy Stamping. KG5
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Actually there is a good reason. All of the geography I learned in school was based on the map found on the board game risk!
Just kidding, an oversight on my part (not a small one either!).
All the best.
Marc
Login to Like
this post
01:32:05am
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
@Andrejs--A few posts up, you made this remark:
"I asked him if the stamps had been catalogued and mounted in albums. He said that some were; but most were in boxes and envelopes, sorted according to country (a red flag to dealers and collectors)."
I'm curious as to why there would be a red flag in that scenario.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
It's all in the presentation. Boxes and boxes of stamps, even if piled into glassines by country, mean alot of work to sort for little return.
In addition, from my experiences of buying stamps accumulations, such as what this is generally contain 30% - 50% of stamps that are worthless due to damage. Boxes and boxes of stamps contain multitudes of duplicates as well. Hard for one dealer to sell 250 of the same stamp that catalogs only 20 cents. I find that the same percentages generally hold true for stamps in beginner and intermediate albums, especially if they are hinged to the album pages. If the album is old, then the percentage of damaged can run significantly higher to where almost all the stamps are basically worthless. I am rarely interested in buying this sort of material.
Albums such as the Scott International I find better with 20% - 30% damaged, depending on how they are mounted on the pages. Also, the lack of complete sets is commonplace, and since only the lowest valued stamps are present, there isn't much a dealer can do with those. I peruse through randomly selected pages of such albums and see how things look. Usually, I do not find it worthwhile to purchase these, especially if stamps without spaces allocated for are hinged all over the place on the pages, or duplicates and triplicates and more are mounted on top of each other over the same space. A horrible display.
Scott Specialized and other similar albums generally are the best maintained. I find around 10% - 20% damaged material, depending again on how the stamps are mounted on the pages. If the stamps are in mounts and the pages are clean and clear of surplus stamps placed all over the page, then it is a good indication that the collector took care of the collection, and it will be a good prospect for purchase. These albums have a good percentage of complete sets as well. I do check randomly to see if the stamps in mounts were previously hinged and transferred to mounts. If the stamps are hinged, then it requires a closer look to see how the stamps are hinged and what hinges were used.
A well-kept and well-organized collection will bring higher buying prices from dealers. Think as if you were a dealer. Would you pay top dollar for boxes and boxes of unsorted stamps that collectors only bid bottom dollar on at stamp auctions for box lots? If you are going to buy something, do you want to know what it is that you are buying, and expect it to be properly presented for you to easily decide what is there and being offered for purchase? Dealers can't afford to waste time or money on "mystery lots".
Login to Like
this post
08:23:18pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
As expected, stamp prices will be based upon demand. I can get stamps from countries that are not "mainstream" collecting destinations for less than 10%. If I want the stamp and like the stamp, I feel I am getting a good deal. If I but from very popular countries, such as Western Europe, Japan, China, US, or Canada, I really have to hunt a while to get material for less than 10% of Scott. I also have to factor if this is to fill a hole in an album that I will keep and pass on to someone, or will want to sell or trade. If I plan to sell or trade, I of course will not want to pay a higher percentage of SCV.
I have found buying mounted album lots and stockbook lots to be a really good way to do it all: fill holes in my collection, find a nice item or two, and provide plenty of trading or sellable material for very little outlay.
Glad to see so many "old school" collectors on SOR!
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
I meant that seeing stuff in envelopes and boxes is a red flag in this scenario because, let's face it, as collectors, would we be keeping our best stamps in envelopes and boxes or in albums? My colleague wanted a quick sale and profit. When he described what he had, my immediate reaction was that these were extras and not so great stamps. Yes, there are always hidden treasures; but people who want a quick sale won't want to put that time into it. Nor will dealers who are consulted by people who inherit collections. Michael described the whole process very well. I heard what my colleague said and thought, "give him the catalogues and let him see for himself."
Login to Like
this post
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
08 Mar 2012
10:03:55pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
I am a novice collector who just posted on a different thread that I want to start my collection with interesting and lucrative stamps. After reading this thread I now realize that is not my goal, I want to enjoy collecting stamps. I inherited a small collection from my sister who passed away and this will be my way of moving on and remembering at the same time. Thank you all for opening my eyes!
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Indeed, Lisa, it's not about money at all, or shouldn't be. There's no doubt that you can spend a great deal on stamps, and there's also no doubt that few of us will ever recoup those expenses. But there is this: stamps (and covers) do retain value, sometimes quite considerable value, and can be sold for pleasing amounts. But it's a rare collector who wouldn't do better investing in safe stocks and bonds, if making money is his or her goal.
At the same time, you can spend virtually nothing on a collection and come away a winner. I have a friend who regularly wins top awards in national exhibitions with collections of common stamps that you could literally purchase for $20 or less, or even find in waste baskets. Well, you could have found them a few years ago, when people still used stamps more than email! Her secret is that she can ferret out information about those stamps that is new to the rest of us, and present it in an interesting, readable manner.
Bob
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
If you peruse through the stamp catalogs, you'll find that most stamps are valued at less than $5.00, and their market value (what a dealer will agree to sell it to you for)is usually less than that.
Login to Like
this post
Silence in the face of adversity is the father of complicity and collusion, the first cousins of conspiracy..
10 Mar 2012
11:13:02am
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
To just expand the comment a tiny bit.
Most stamps are truly common as dirt but still the pleasure of collecting them, forming sets and creating album pages is very fulfilling.
The majority, overwhelming majority, are listed in stamp catalogs at less than $5.00.
And their retail or market value; what they usually cost you, is measurably less due to the custom in the hobby of catalog publishers creating an arbitrary number so that dealers can advertise that they are selling at some significant discount from that listing and collectors can deceive themselves into believing that they got a world class bargain.
But then there is the wholesale value, which is what the collector can get from a dealer when he or she sells, and that is but a fraction of the "market value", and quite often a miniscule percentage of that often proclained Catalog listig.
The day that Scott begins to try to sell stamps at the listed price they can then be called the Scott "Value".
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Like Randy, I too started collecting the whole world, and with a bang: my first stamp album, bought when I was about 11 or 12, was the three-volume Scott International album. Dumb purchase, really, but I had almost no one to turn to for advice, and it did give me an overview of the huge range of stamps to be on the lookout for.
In a sense I still collect the whole world, but my stamp collections are "limited" to aviation/airmail topicals picturing mid-20th Century aircraft, parts of aircraft, or pilots and crew; stamps related directly to WWI, WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War; astronomy pictorials, including mythology as it relates to astronomy (but not astronautics except as it reveals astronomical information).
I could use a bigger apartment!
Bob
Login to Like
this post
04:27:14pm
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
On the topic of dealers relative to sale, is there a place online where one can read reviews of dealers? I've been advised to google them, and thereby have learned that two dealers with which I was going to work have federal felony convictions. But short of that, I'd like to know what others' experiences have been with those who don't show up in a google search. I've also been advised to request bank statements, so that I have assurance that the prospective buyer has the resources to make the purchase, which should help to eliminate curiosity seekers. But I have heard that some dealers will provide a sealed bid and then later back out on the purchase -- that kind of thing. That's the kind of behavior I'd like to find out about from others in advance of contacting a dealer.
Login to Like
this post
Auctions
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
It sounds like you have an important collection to sell. bob Ingraham has put together a primer on selling a collection that's a good starting point.
You can also cross check dealers withAPS to se who is naughty and nice.
I don't know of any list. Right now, everything is in generalities, so it's tough to lead you anywhere. dealers tend to specialize, so if yours is a US collection, for instance, you might start with Henry vintner. If its covers, Forte, our own Roy Lingen, or Coverman.... You get the picture.
And, yes, some dealers have convictions for fraud and bid rigging, etc. and others would be elected to the college of saints.
Login to Like
this post
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
You can submit a reference check online through the APS. Also contact the American Stamp Dealers Association (ASDA). They will help you too. If you have a large collection, you would definitely not want to hit a small-time fly by night dealer.
Login to Like
this post
11:12:33am
re: A general discussion of stamp dealers and why they feel entitled to feed their children or pay their rent
Thank you. I was disappointed, however, to see that the APS still lists one dealer who was convicted for price rigging and is a felon. :-( Everyone is charming over the phone -- the convicted felons are more charming than all the others. For now, I am simply googling and hoping that any issues show up in the search.
Login to Like
this post